Melbourne incident

[graham.hobart]

Hope all you in Melbourne are safe- if you haven't heard
check the ABC
:sadeyes:

[Atmos]

I've been listening to it unfold on 3AW since it happened, terrible incident...

[Andy01]

Horrific - my studio is next to all this - there's Cops, Firey's, Ambo's everywhere - poor buggers didn't have a chance - kids & babies killed & injured too :(

[el_draco]

A well placed bullet would wipe the smirk of this scumbags head. *******:mad2::mad2:
Three Pacific Islanders tried to have a go at the pig with a baseball bat..:thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

And yet mention the prospect of capital punishment and things return to an entirely unrealistic approach such that we are asked to consider how the poor accused should be understood and rehabilitated.
How long will the accused spend in prison.
Whilst in prison how many will he effect or infect.
Uncivilized actions do not deserve civilized treatment.
Alex

[jenchris]

Not sure a person with that sort of record deserves any human rights.
I think topping him by dropping a car on him might be ironic enough

[raymo]

It will be interesting to see whether he was on anything, or was just
behaving normally [by his standards].
raymo

[Larryp]

News reports say he had drug and mental problems, and was well known to police. He apparently stabbed his brother in a domestic fight and took a woman hostage before driving into Melbourne-fortunately she escaped.

[AussieTrooper]

Where is the accountability for magistrates who give bail to repeat violent offenders, who offend again whilst on bail?

[Boozlefoot]

If a dog ran up Swanson St and bit 23 people it would have been put down by now................:mad2:

[Orionskies]

Life is so fragile, one person can damage others so easily and never understand truly what he has done to them....The victims will be affected for the rest of their lives from this terrible act.:(:(

[csb]

Regarding the guys with a baseball bat - I'd say they are probably aggressive thugs themselves who travel with their weapon, a baseball bat, in their car.

A news website calls one of them a hero. Such an overused word by the media and probably not apt in this circumstance. Just an aggro bully doing things his way.

[xelasnave]

Your version won't sell newspapers however.
I guess if you don't play baseball and you carry a bat in your car one can only draw one conclusion.

Alex

[el_draco]

One may say the same about Australian cricket players travelling in their cars with vicious willow clubs and up to six evil tipped stabbing implements in their cars... Obviously thugs... :shrug:

Nothing like stereotyping islanders. In my experience, bloody incredible people... but of course, there are exceptions to every rule I guess...

[el_draco]

The judiciary, like politicians, are a law unto themselves. If they were ever truly held accountable for their actions, there would be crucifixion crosses lining both sides of the Hume Highway from Melbourne to Canberra, and I'd take holiday snaps of every friggin one of them... :thumbsup:

[leon]

Seems that some Police need some more Firearm training.

They Missed.

Leon

[xelasnave]

I would love to hear what this character thinks about things such that he acts the way he did.
What does he believe?
Why does he feel driven to act so badly.
Who does he see as the enemy.
How does he see his actions supporting his cause.
How does he see killing people as a good idea.
Alex

[xelasnave]

And are there people in the community who think what he did was a good idea.
Alex

[csb]

When I saw the video, I didn't know those guys with the bat were Islanders. The video is too grainy.

I think, in Australia most people who carry a baseball bat, have it as a weapon. And many of these guys would be thugs, bullies, hot- tempered.

Actually I'm really stereotyping people who carry baseball bats in the city.

[leon]

Well these guys were actually on their way to play Base Ball somewhere in Melbourne, hence the Bat in the car.

Leon

[AndrewJ]

Hmm, amazing how quick we are these days to judge with no information.



Ref todays "news" after someone actually talked to em
( its called journalism )



I only hope that the incident puts a blowtorch onto the out dated, out of touch legal system we still have, that lives in an esoteric world that ended 25 years ago. All other "industries" have had to reform, why not them?????

Andrew

[Tropo-Bob]

Such a sad thing to happen. I hope victims and their families are given every possible consideration and assistance. My heart really goes out to them. I briefly meet a really nice couple who were later both killed in the Port Arthur tragedy.

I watch some crime documentaries on cable TV. I like seeing how crimes are solved and truth be told, I like that they catch up and put away some terrible people. What dismays me however, is even though the US punishments for crime seem so much more severe than in Australia, the crime rate there remains high and there is no shortage of new criminals. The harsh deterrents do not seem to work.

Poverty of course is the breeding ground of much crime. I recently saw a show claiming the Australian have the second highest incomes per person in the world. Surprising, we were second only to Switzerland.

If that be the case, is this as good as it gets? It seems that we will unfortunately always have an element in society doing terrible things. Indeed, according to the renowned NZ Dunedin University Study, about one in twenty of the population will have ongoing contact with the justice system during their lifetime. This is a depressing high figure.

[jenchris]

Originally Posted by csb View Post
Regarding the guys with a baseball bat - I'd say they are probably aggressive thugs themselves who travel with their weapon, a baseball bat, in their car.
Stereotyping without sufficient info.
If someone had shot him (while on the way to the shooting range) who would have been the victim?
No one drove their vehicle out into the path of the perp.
Had they done so would they be heros?
No, he would have been done for damgerous driving because the terrorist hadn't yet killed anyone.
The magistrate should be done for assisting in the instigation of a crime. Or crimes.
The police stopped chasing him. Too dangerous. .... hmmm .
If he's stabbed someone, you're aiding and abetting by not stopping hi..

[csb]

So they may not be thugs - I did say "probably". They seem to have actually responded appropriately - the driver's attitude and words made them wonder what he was going to do.

I didn't know what race the bat guy was until a previous post mentioned it. I formed my thoughts after seeing the video AND before their race was mentioned in this thread.

The video made me wonder who is driving around with a baseball bat. Baseball is not big in Australia. It is easily surmised that most baseball bats in cars are weapons; in a country that doesn't play much baseball.

Most Islanders I've met have not been thuggish types. Nice people actually.

[toc]

I walk around the CBD most lunchtimes (I work on Elizabeth St, just down from Melbourne central) and I was going that way on Friday - I ended up going the other way to get some computer gear from CPL in North Melbourne.

I read on the ABC that he was granted bail by an "after-hours volunteer bail justice". WTF? Why would such a stupid thing exist? not only are 5 people dead, but now a person has to carry the guilt of such a horrific decision. Why would such critical life and death decisions be left to a volunteer? Boggles the mind.

[JA]

Unfortunately we get what we pay for ......
http://www.justice.vic.gov.au/utility/volunteering/

Unfortunately
JA

[Boozlefoot]

There has been a long standing push for the bail justice system to be done away with in Vic, mainly led by police who are fed up with taking these people from the streets, only to have them bailed and out again in a matter of an hour or two. (The old revolving door) The volunteer bail justices seem to revel in the power they have to over-rule police decisions to have these people remanded in custody until seen by a full-time magistrate. Perhaps the bail justice who heard this application and released him needs to sit down with the families of the victims and hear their point of view.

[AndrewJ]

For once, i do feel sorry for the wallopers, who arent allowed to chase people like this, and if they do catch them, have to watch them be released if they get a good (free) lawyer, dress in a nice suit and promise to come back when asked to.
And that comes partly back to the final point in my earlier post.
Why is our legal system so slow/costly and archaic.
People can be on remand for months whilst someone makes sure a piece of paper has the correct number of stamps on it etc
If you detain someone, you must deal with them swiftly.
I find it interesting that if you make cars or clothes etc, and are under pressure, you have to work harder for less or be outsourced. If you have a legal system under pressure, the govt has to provide more money:P
As soon as this nut is charged, news outlets wont be allowed to use his name or mention his past ( even tho its all over the web and on their historical blogs ), as it might prejudice his trial.
They will have to say "alleged", or risk contempt, even tho the whole lot is on video etc etc
Time for the "whole" legal system to do some changing, or be outsourced, like eveyone else who is no longer "cost effective"

Andrew

[el_draco]

That's a really interesting point. I watched the bast*ard on video and noted, apart from the incredible calmness of those horses, that nobody thought to ram the car. I couldn't quite figure that one out but I'd like to think I would have been pissed off enough to plough into him myself. It was obviously a case of a rampaging lunatic doing something very dangerous around a lot of vulnerable people and I reckon anyone who had taken him on would have been cleared of any wrong doing.

Children dead. We need very deep mine shafts in which to deposit this type... :(

[csb]

Rom, I doubt your the insurance company would cover damage to your car if you used it to stop the guy. You may do a heroic act but insurance companies aren't hero material.

I note the guys with the bat were young. What have they got to lose. An older person will consider, their own family, life, legal issues, etc.

[torana68]

I cant say I knew of this system but its the stupidist thing I've heard of recently, Australia need to look back to a time when if you were arrested you stayed in the cells till you could be brought a before court, arrest is for serious matters and need to be delt with seriously . Not by some part time underqualified person. I blame the civil libertarians, the "do gooder" openly anti Police and trying to stop people's "civil liberties" being taken from them, sorry but there are a lot of people who dont deserve liberty and its time Victoria sorted out their legal system and the restraints placed on Police. No vagrancy provisions no move on power, no pursuit, everyone "entitled" to bail, this is where this gets you , its one of our worst moments and something needs to happen (not just Vic but they seem to be in the biggest mess)

[torana68]

who cares about insurance in an instance like that :(

[AndrewJ]

Gday Roger

Part of me actually likes the bail justice system, as it allows people to be processed very quickly, which is one of my major gripes.
What i would say though is a bail justice should not be allowed to grant bail if the police oppose it. The cops wont oppose bail for lots of cases, but if they do, it should be respected till a full magistrate can decide.

Andrew

[el_draco]

That's the problem, people are to interested in protecting their own arsenals these days than doing whats required... :shrug: No heroic acts required, just a bit of G&D but I am sure 60 dimwits would have paid for an interview.... ;) (Not that this would have been a consideration of course)

[torana68]

Andrew I know what your saying and if I was arrested Id like to get out quickly but then I wont be and I really don't care if someone has to spend a night in the pen for doing something anti social. All I can say is don't get arrested...........if its on a weekend or pretty minor most state Police can bail unless they don't want you on the streets again in which case you front a Magistrate, unfortunately they (Courts) are too lenient at the moment.

[Nath2099]

What could possibly go wrong.

What's better do you think, have a justice system that crosses it's t's and dots it's i's, or throw innocent people in prison for life? Or worse still, as what happens in the good 'ol USA, kill said innocent people?

I'm all for having magistrates assess bail applications, not a volunteer as well meaning as they may be. And for the magistrate to oppose bail if the cops do, especially for violent crime.

[The_bluester]

What would be the point of a bail justice or similar system if police opposing bail meant that a bail justice could not direct a persons release? You might as well simply institute a system where the police have the sole decision making responsibility on if a person is released or not. While they were right to oppose bail in this instance (And doubtless many more) Police are still just people and make mistakes like everyone else.

Regards taking things into your own hands. Best IMO to leave actions like this to those trained to take them (Police) than to undo the work they are doing by vigilante action. What if the guys swinging baseball bats at him proved to be the pivotal thing that wound him up that last little bit and tipped him over into driving at people rather than driving in circles in Flinders St and yelling at the crowd?

[AndrewJ]

Gday Nath


If they got it right in a reasonable time frame, maybe.
Just look at the recent debacles re parole, let alone bail
and the number of cases that just end up in endless appeals.
The legal system is now costing us more than most can afford, and still not getting it right. Maybe it does need a low cost alternative brought in that "might" stuff up at the same rate, but at 20% of the cost????
Unless the current system is really threatened with being made irrelevant, it wont change, irrespective of what our pollies say.
ie After the Census debacle we heard "Heads will roll"
Havent seen one yet. Legal system is probably blocking that too.

Andrew

[AndrewJ]

Gday Paul
It would be like a legal triage system.
I dont believe the police should be involved in the bail itself, as that is open to corruption.
If everone is happy that they arent a threat, give em bail without annoying the beak. ( and the court, not the police set/control the bail )
If police oppose bail, and a magistrate is available, go straight there, else the accused waits.

Andrew

[FlashDrive]

Not sure if anyone else heard this said about him .....

One witness said he was yelling out that the Government was after him and Asteroids were coming....

He also has an ice addiction .... and violence issues.

I think ' Capital Punishment ' would be the order of the day for this fella ...

Col....

[The_bluester]

The problem with that is the same as it always was.

While it is not likely to be the case in this instance, if someone is later found to have been wrongly convicted (it happens) it is fiendishly difficult to un-execute them. Institute capital punishment for this fella and where do you stop? Should Martin Bryant be executed? I would argue that his actions were much more premeditated than this bloke, who you would have to describe as unhinged rather than calculating.

[Kunama]

Until the law allows the victims or their families to sue the magistrate or person granting bail for actions that could reasonable be expected to occur we are stuck with this pathetic legal system that is based on the idea of rehabilitation at all costs rather than rehabilitation only after punishment.

These type of mongrels do not deserve any opportunity to be rehabilitated into society, they threw away that right when they decided to commit such crimes.
The punishment needs to match the crime, crush this ******* with a car and leave him under its burning exhaust till he can no longer be considered a threat to anyone ever again.

Just my 2 cents after more than two decades of watching criminals being set free and leaving the courthouse ahead of the police who took them there.

[xelasnave]

Mmmm he can beat murder I think.
He may not have the mental requirement of having a mind that can be guilty.
There is no way this chap should be out on bail if he still is the system can be called broken.
The legal system is good but needs a big fix.
Give folk a break for a first minor offence but thereafter apply full penelaitirs of the appropriate act.
In my view easy sentences are a way to see lawyers get work.
The folk that reoffend tells us that things are broken.
I bet I could kill someone and be out in three years, I have seen it done...that is wrong.
Anyways we the people have no voice the powers know better than us and so our thoughts and feelings do not count and do not kid yourselves that they do.
Alex

[el_draco]

That piece of garbage from Port Arthur, prefer you don't print its name by the way, should have been publicly executed and I would have been happy to light the bonfire. As it is, it is in permanent solitary because the rest of the crims have promised to do the task the judiciary and government didn't have the cahonas to do. Where there is zero doubt, the rodents should be removed from the planet IMHO

[el_draco]

Call it rodent control then, either way, the results the same.

[Kunama]

Intent to kill is not required, 'mens rea' is established if 'reckless indifference....' is shown.

[AndrewJ]

And if a lawyer takes the std obfuscation route and leads off with "he had a bad childhood and was on ice at the time", it all becomes an expensive argument where once more, lawyers win and the public gets shafted.

Andrew

[MortonH]

No-one seems to be considering the possibility that the guys with the bat actually pushed the guy over the edge. Who knows if it had any impact on his already messed up state of mind.

Personally I think it was totally irresponsible of them to approach such an obvious nut job in the manner they did. They claim they were worried he was going to do something really bad and felt they had to act, but they may in fact have escalated the situation.

[csb]

People in their teens aren't so sophisticated in their outlook/reasoning. And they are (we were) risk takers without fully appreciating or caring if the consequences.

However, news media are portraying their actions as being brave.

[torana68]

he stabbed his own brother (as well as wanting to kill all gay people) , assaulted some old guy to steal his car, was ranting, had been followed by Police cars for some time............ he was well over the edge before they turned up............there can be NO excuses for what he did , not drugs not alcohol not a poor upbringing, people trying to stop him...... nothing.

[MortonH]

Jeez, I'm not offering it as an EXCUSE!!!

Whatever he did earlier in the day, you can't know if he was going to drive into the crowd anyway. What we do know is that he was behaving in a bizarre and aggressive manner and two people antagonised him further, regardless of their intentions.

When someone's acting crazy you give them as much space as possible and don't interact with them unless you're trained to do so.

[AndrewJ]

[QUOTE]When someone's acting crazy you give them as much space as possible and don't interact with them unless you're trained to do so./QUOTE]
I wonder if the dead and injured were "trained to interact" when they actually "interacted" with him ( not of their choice ) , and i must ask, who is trained to deal with a nutter like this?????????
He was acting totally irrationally and completely out of control, and using a car as a weapon in the middle of a highly populated area.
The wallopers should have rammed/disabled his car or shot him after the first donut, considering they knew his background and history on the day.

Andrew

[MortonH]

I thought the 'wallopers' were random teenagers who knew nothing about what happened earlier.

[AndrewJ]

Nope. Its colloquial slang for the police :-)
ie in the good old days, you didnt get arrested, you got a nice word in yr ear and a wallop to go home with.

Andrew

[bigjoe]

Couldn't agree more!:thumbsup:
bigjoe

[bigjoe]

Yes as asual it seems.
bigjoe.l

[The_bluester]

[QUOTE=AndrewJ;1292129]

Edit: added the quote as subsequent posts left this context free.

That does beg the very obvious questions.

What if in trying to ram him they put him through the crowd of pedestrians?
What if in trying to shoot him they killed an innocent bystander or two instead?

Given he had only showed himself publically at the time as a nut job, not a nut job using a car as a murder weapon I think we would be having a very different discussion today and the coppers would be getting the rough end of it.

I stand by my previous comments about the guys with baseball bats, taking a swing at someone who has already lost the plot is only going to make him worse.

[MortonH]

[QUOTE=The_bluester;1292139]


Which is why the police tend to stand off in the first instance for fear of making it worse. It's always easy to second guess or make the right decision with hindsight, of course.

It was similar in the Lindt cafe siege. The police snipers could have taken him out but they were worried he might have explosives that would go off and kill everyone inside.

There's no right or wrong answer, unfortunately.

[barx1963]

With due respect Alex, civilized treatment is important. I know this view is unpopular at the moment, but the mark of a civilised society is the way it treats even the worst of it's members. I am NOT saying that he should not be punished, I hope that life behind bars is what he gets. But that punishment should be done in a way that reflects our values and our rule of law. As a society, I think we hold the value that life should be sancrosanct as far as we can make it. This is not achieved by state sanctioned killing or brutalising accused or convicted felons, that is simple revenge, and to quote a recent PM, I hope we are better than that.

Malcolm

[xelasnave]

Hi Malcolm,
You are correct.
Give him a fair trial then hang him.
Alex

[AndrewJ]

I thought in the inquest that the snipers actually said they had no idea how thick the glass was and how it "might" deflect their shots, or affect their true line of sight ( refraction etc ).

Andrew

[The_bluester]

They did, however it did not stop all of the facebook firearms experts from confidently saying he should have been shot with a 50 cal.


I personally hope after Friday that he is tried, convicted and has a long and uninteresting life without liberty.

Execution IMO is simply state sanctioned murder and continues to beg the question, where do you stop? All you need to do it sit on Facebook for a day or two to see a photo calling for pedophiles to be executed (Still heinous) but where does it stop? What degree of culpability leads to execution? If killing someone for killing is OK, is it OK to beat someone for stealing? Cut their hand off? where does it stop when the most severe possible retribution becomes an answer?

[AndrewJ]

Gday Paul
I have (personally) never suggested execution, just allow the police to deal with someone like this before it gets more dangerous, and have a legal system that backs up the coppers, not the criminals.
Lets play different what ifs
What if the Bail justice hadnt let him go.
What if the police, knowing he had been using ice, was violent at his mums place, stabbed his brother and chucked his girlfriend out on the bolte bridge, had stopped him before he could get into the city.
Life isnt simple, but recently, too many nutters ( many who arent being chased ) go on to kill innocent people.
Sorry but in this case, a nutter in a car should be taken out at the first possibility.
Andrew

[Nath2099]

I could imagine the outcry had a sniper put a bullet in him between doughnuts. No cop supervisor is going to authorize that.

Should all people on ice who commit acts of violence be summarily executed?

[AndrewJ]

Yet its OK to shoot him AFTER he has crashed and he is stopped????
No one has commented yet on how he got shot in the arm.

Andrew

[Stonius]

The conversation always comes back to mental health...and stops dead in it's tracks right there. Like there's nothing that can be done about it and we all throw up our arms in despair. It's funny how people will discuss incidents like this ad infinitum, but no-one cares about the root cause. Surely prevention is better than cure?

Mental health funding is really important, or stuff like this happens. We either pay for it with our taxes, or with our lives.

Markus

[Nath2099]

I would imagine he was shot then crashed. But don't know. A bit different to summarily executing someone because they're doing donuts on ice, after having apparently stabbed a family member, though. That would seem a bit harsh to me.

[AussieTrooper]

[QUOTE=MortonH;1292155]
Very different scenarios. Even if they got him, that car is still moving, not to mention the number of people nearby.

[AndrewJ]

I never suggested summary execution, i used the words "take out"
Block or ram the car, shoot to disable the car, and as a last resort shoot the driver. Its not as if there werent enough police cars nearby to do the blocking option.

Andrew

[MortonH]

[QUOTE=AussieTrooper;1292193]

My point was that 'moving in' whether by shooting, trying to grab him, etc. is fraught with danger of making things worse, hence why the police stood off him for as long as they did.

Given that this wasn't a terrorist attack, the police did what they thought was the least dangerous thing, which was not to engage him. If he hadn't been surrounded by people giving him attention by taking videos, and if the guys with the baseball bats had let the police do their job, the outcome might have been different.

[bigjoe]

This just highlights Laurie , how nothing is really actually done with these problem people.
They create havoc over and over , and are just let off to wander through society, with the HOPE that they will not commit even more violent acts.

Cheers bigjoe.

[jenchris]

Why not disable the car?
I know the 9mm they use now is very weak but it is still able to destroy batteries and tyres etc.
Gone are the days of 357mag grp.
Train the police to use their weapons.
They're very poor at shooting.

[The_bluester]

[QUOTE=AussieTrooper;1292193

Not sure why that is coming up as a quote from me. It is not from me, however I agree with you. It is about as sensible as that video of police tazering a driver of a moving van through the open window (Perth I think?) a couple of years ago. Great idea, keep the public safe by disabling the driver of a vehicle while it is moving? Then there is the fact that projectiles don't just stop because they have missed their intended target.



I have not commented because I do not know how, where or when he was shot so I feel that I have no useful comment to make.




I reckon that disabling the car would prove to be more of a challenge than people might think. IMO you would need to be a freakishly good shot to pop a tyre, and even then it would potentially not slow him down much. Likewise, puncturing the battery stands very little chance of stopping the car in the short term. Unless the battery shorted out the car will just keep going on the alternator.

[Tropo-Bob]

Oh come on, shooting at a car speeding in an area crowded with civilians is not on. Even the best markman could not control were the bullets may ricochet.

[astroron]

Good thinking Bob:thumbsup:
It's bad enough with police pursuits where there are innocent people killed going about their lawful business,by trying to apprehend someone who did not stop at a red light or other misdemeanors.
This is Melbourne Not New York city or Rio De Janeiro
Cheers:thumbsup:

[AussieTrooper]

Doubtless his lawyers will try that one on.
It's always someone else's fault that you were violent/drug addicted/stole/whatever. It's never the fault of the offender, so a slap on the wrist and out they go to go harm someone else again.

[MortonH]

My comment is being misinterpreted again. I'm not saying the guys with the bat constitute an excuse for his behaviour, I'm saying that if they hadn't attacked the car he might not have driven into those people. If you see a hornets' nest with loud angry noises coming from it, is the sensible action to walk away or hit it with a baseball bat???

However, it's largely academic as the media are now saying the police potentially had multiple occasions to stop him before he reached the CBD, including a time when he was stuck in traffic. It's not clear why they weren't able to stop him at that time. They were apparently trying to box him in, which is obviously more sensible than trying to disable the car by shooting it.

[AussieTrooper]

No misinterpretation. My comment stands with or without the quote.

Whether the baseball bat attempt had any effect (and nobody is saying that it did), we will never know.

But it is certain that his lawyers will try and use this and any other rubbish they can rake up, to try and lessen the penalty for this scumbag who should have already been in prison. There seems to be no shortage of magistrates and bail justices stupid enough to swallow it too.