Amateur Astronomy Evolution 2017 and Beyond?

[glend]

As we enter a new year, it would be a good time to take stock of the amateur astronomy landscape over the past year and cast your gaze into this coming year. What changes do you see coming? What new products, techniques, discoveries, will transform amateur astronomy? What trends are you seeing among IIS members and the wider astro community around the world? Is there a singular event of the past year that will influence future directions?

:welcome:

[el_draco]

The future of amateur astronomy has few limits although I think light pollution and the trend towards global idiocracy are significant threats. Those living in cities are losing contact with the night sky and all that it both brings and reminds us of. :shrug:

On a positive note, those of us with the will to pursue the infinite have few limits and I see an ever greater level of collaboration between amateurs and professionals, with more amateurs making more discoveries in their own right. :thumbsup:

I've been an amateur for over 40 years and I remember, very distinctly, a book by Jack Newton, (Canada), that was considered leading edge back then. Galaxies like M33 were faint smudges in B&W in that book. These days, I often mistake amateur images for Hubble images. I can't even imagine what another 20 years will do... amateur space based observatories perhaps? :question:

[PeterM]

Excellent thought provoking thread Glend.

From an amateur Supernova discoverers point of view much has changed recently and will (as it should) continue to from hereon in.

BOSS discoveries stand at 156 and we would love to see that at 200 but that is becoming more and more a difficult a target.

There are many professional supernova search surveys now as well as orbiting satellites (many listed below) that will make our goal all the more difficult. Throw ontop of that the LSST and every other SBBS (Super Big Bleedin Scopes) that are in the works and you would think time for the amateur to give up!
Well not yet anyway.

The evolution of Supernova discovery is exciting.

From the naked eye discoveries by the chinese in 185, by Arab/Japanese/Chinese in 1054, Kepler 1604 then onto Bob Evans telescopic discoveries in the 80/90s, then amateur CCD Supernova discoveries by Monard, Puckett, Armstrong, Boles, BOSS and others we now arrive at mass discoveries by dedicated professional robotic surveys.

The good news is that surveys are generating vast amounts of data and and some of these surveys like ASAS SN (http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~assassin/index.shtml) the All Sky Automated Survey for Supernova still rely on amateurs assisting with confirmations. Greg Bock and I have been involved with Asassn now for about 18 months, when we can and weather permitting we schedule follow up of targets, mostly the Southern ones and send our images back for further analysis to see if they confirm their discovery. Asassn have many many professional astronomers on board whose work involves supernova. When our images confirm the new object, we are very generously included in or even lead author in the ATel (Astronomers Telegram - http://www.astronomerstelegram.org/) that is subsequently released.
They have gone much further including us in several professional papers submitted to and published by Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society.

So yes Glen, Amateur Astronomy is and will change in 2017, yes amateurs will still have an important role to play and yes amateur astronomers can have an even greater collaboration with professional astronomers.

Changes/Challenges for 2017 and beyond? The spread of LED street lighting - popping up in every new estate and soon coming to a pole near you.

And the Trump card..... it's effect on Astro/Science funding in the US and beyond.


ASAS-SN: Transients, Supernovae
Catalina Real-Time Transient Survey:
CRTS discoveries page, (Supernovae only, Possible supernovae)
MLS search page (Supernovae only, Possible supernovae)
Supernova hunt page
Dark Energy Survey Bright Transients
Gaia Photometric Science Alerts programme Alert index
La Silla-QUEST (no published list)
MASTER robotic Net List of optical transients, Supernovae
OGLE-IV wide field survey Discovery images Rapid Transient Detection system
Intermediate Palomar Transient Factory (no published list)
PS1 Science Consortium Discoveries
ROTSE collaboration: Discoveries page

[Slawomir]

Four things that I have noticed are: refractors are getting faster, mass produced mounts are getting better, astro-capable cameras are getting cheaper and software allows to extract more out of the data. All of the above result in a gradual improvement in the quality of amateur astro images.

[ChrisV]

Maybe not mainstream, but in the past year live imaging has become easier with the introduction of low cost sensitive CMOS cameras with low read noise PLUS good live stacking software.

[JA]

Hi Glen,

Good Q: Changes here/coming soon? ..... the explosion in popularity of video or EAA for observation/imaging which will drive further hardware and software development together with better systems integration, which will further improve take-up and reduce costs.

Best
JA

PS: In line with this and for 2017 we could/should introduce a Video Astronomy / EAA forum /subforum

[Merlin66]

I'd like to think that amateurs will give more thought and resources to the scientific aspects of our hobby.
Spectroscopy is certainly one area where the professionals are crying out for more quality amateur data.
T

[PeterM]

This is a great thread, and one of the best in recent times. Responses sofar are excellent. If it doesn't get 100 responses in record time then what is happening in amateur astronomy.

[graham.hobart]

Good thread.
I was pondering this and maybe, just maybe...

Full integration of Weather Sensor type gizmos (Boltwood etc) married with state of the art local fine grain weather satellite info and radar for domestic use.
Maybe a network of home grown techno radar/ home made satellites (Bojan?? anyone???), forming a network specifically for the cloud watchers amongst us.
Imagine running a fully integrated Obsy- phone in on the way home (hands free of course in your hover car!) yep- looks good for a few hrs,
fire up the SGPRO plus everything else- Satellite Pro, Radar stacker, Cumulobuster, set the button to green.
Off for some food in a tube.
Text from the obsy- some clouds have reached 20% opacity have switched to calibration frames for predicted T- 10 mins.
Then back to work with the laser guided/ AO enhanced hexagonal mirror with servos duty free from china Mega Scope!!
El Draco- ? where are you?
all the best to all and sundry in 2017.
Graz

[Southskyscience]

Thank you Glen and others,

‘For Science’ would be the crux of the rest of this message. The future is in our hands, as always, if only we could work together positively and peacefully.

Some current attempts and suggestions/invitations:


Contributing to science. We watch the BOSS team as exemplar (not just in what’s achieved or for names but in how people can team up ‘for science’).

We need more of an ‘astronomical science’ focus (and training/systems –so we need to divide-and-conquer), right from basic reporting of events to responding to pro-am requests.
.

Spectroscopy, specifically, although massively important both in the past and right now!, seems to have been so neglected for all sorts of reasons. We have a gaping hole in basic understanding, play/explore/investigating, and pro-am contributions. It is hoped that more of us look into this. It is nowadays economical and simple to do; then decide to what depth you wish to take it.

Astrophotographers are needed please, who already have fantastic gear, to start taking spectral images. Many among us can team up on the processing side. But also please show startlingly beautiful colourful spectral images to the world –your skills and gear will show things up more than the basics.
.
Societies and Clubs are in a perfect position to make it happen. Please (return to) have an observational/field science component ie doing –not only talks, with no less facilitation than for socialising. Serving just ‘what the customers want’ has an analogy in ‘kids want sugar’ or ‘--- want ICE’, with consequences.

Societies and Clubs, as an example for 2), can also readily include a grating filter (only about $200) in the eyepiece kit for members and the public. And let us join efforts across Societies, embracing all non-members too.
.
SOUTH celestial focus. Traditional and current texts cover so much of northern hemisphere perspectives that many of us have not embraced or promoted seeing with SH eyes. Example, how many texts have and how many Outreach show: Esb 365, (arguably) the reddest star which is right by beta Crucis, or H3945 the blue-orange pair quite as beautiful as Albireo, or gamma Velorum the spectral gem?

We can be, collectively the custodian-watcher of eta Carinae; like (….I have a dream….) every astrophotographer takes one set (of it or another chosen adopt-an-object) every session when available.


Hopefully, many of us field astronomers and field observers (either term is an alternative to amateur that can misrepresent or is unhelpful in collaborating with the ‘professional’) will team up one way or another. One endeavour (‘what happened in 2016’) that invites participation is via Southskyscience; much work has progressed -info in separate posts and future communications.

Thanks again for this discussion.
Team

[Atmos]

I think we'll start moving towards seeing a new generation of CMOS sensors, maybe not new generation but there is a large portion of the amateur astronomy community calling for larger mono sensors. At the moment you can either get large sensors that have 15 micron pixels and NABG or the KAF-16803, 11002 (ancient) or the 16200 (new).
Seeing the sensor in the Nikon D810a as mono (QHY have it as a OSC already) or the Sony A7R2 as mono would be a large step forwards. The KAF-16803 is still the king sensor on longer focal lengths due to the 9 micron pixels but a mono Sony A7R2 (42mp FX sensor) would be amazing on a FSQ106 or what I've got as they're both really well corrected and short FL.

This I believe would be the biggest step we could make for 2017.

[skysurfer]

And not only electronics, but also visual astronomy is improving.
Large dobs are getting cheaper and modern eyepieces are waaaaayyyyy better than the Huygens / Ramsden eyepieces of the 1970s.
Take the Ethos hand grenades with 100 deg FOV or the Naglers.

[xelasnave]

I saw a show on tv re a new rifle scope.
It used a laser to correct for air disturbance.
I could not help thinking such a scope could be used to bring adaptive optics to us.
Not to vary the primary but to shut the chip on and off.
The idea of the scope was you marked the target on your screen and then centered the cross hairs and pulled the trigger but the thing did not fire until the computer agreed the target was in line.
Does anyone know what I am talking about?
Alex

[rmuhlack]

Amateur deep field project ? (as per this thread (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=151739))
Exoplanet transit detection ?
From an equipment perspective, low read noise, high QE sensors with small pixels allow one to obtain high resolution deep sky images without the need for long focal length or a huge mount (just look at some of Ray's images).


I am very interested in getting involved in amateur astronomy science and I have equipment that I think could be put to the task, i just dont know where to start...? What are the researchable questions and projects/targets that I can contribute to with the most impact? how do the pro-am collaborations that have been mentioned already in this thread get started? Sure I can stick a star analyser grating or photometric filter on one of my cameras and start playing to learn the basics myself. But what then?

[JA]

Hi Alex,

Yes, I know the one. It's called tracking point. Some video >>>

https://youtu.be/7qCsvtrMbzI

https://youtu.be/eDAcdRXu27I

In a roundabout way, we have that now, vide Speckle or Lucky Imaging, only using the images that are good enough or above a certain seeing threshold set in software (or by lowly humans) to stack for a better image, but I suppose the development would be to put it into one device/camera and one button press.

Best
JA

[Merlin66]

Richard, etc all,
I've been actively involved in spectroscopy for the last ten years. Prior to that almost forty years in amateur astronomy.
Spectroscopy is easy to start, as you say, with a grating and whatever camera telescope you have available. I call this spectroscopy 101.
It gives the introduction to spectra and how to process and calibrate the 1D profile. You can obviously record low resolution spectrum of many varied stellar objects and gain a basic understanding of the HR diagram and stellar evolution.
There are very few "serious" spectroscopic areas to contribute to other than confirmation of novae and SN with the grating.
There are many forums world wide to assist the novice, and a couple of my own books which may be of help ;)

In my experience using the grating is as far as most amateurs go.....the drop out rate in the first twelve months is >80%
Why is this so?
I think part of the reason is not seeing any "advantage" or recognition by the rest of the amateur community. How often have you seen "The image of the week/ month" being a detailed Spectral image? Never.

The other reason is the quantum leap required to move into serious high resolution spectroscopy - the areas of research and data required by the professionals. The necessary slit spectroscope will set you back in excess of $4000, this also requires a good QE mono camera and a suitable guide camera as well as a large (As large as possible) telescope capable of working at >f7 and mount capable of holding a target star on a 20micron slit gap for tens of minutes to stack into a two hour exposure. Such are the challenges of ProAm spectroscopy.
Not really that much different to the dedicated AP amateur, but without the group "glory"

It takes dedication, rigor and patience...... but believe me the rewards strongly outweigh the problems. You are at the forefront of amateur science "boldly going where few have gone before". The professionals we work with are great and always willing to share their knowledge to help us understand what is actually being recorded and what it means in terms of the dynamics of the star(s) being observed.
If any member wants more information on spectroscopic equipment, available processing software or any other aspect of spectroscopy just drop me a PM or email.

[xelasnave]

Thanks.
I think it won't be long before what I imagine will be available.
Alex

[PeterM]

Pro-am collaboration is something I never imagined I would be involved in and I would never have had a clue where or how to start anyways. When I discovered my first supernova in 2008 and saw the IAU circular released, it had the names of 2 professional astronomers who obtained the spectra confirming it was indeed a supernova. I decided to google both and then email them thanking them for doing this - which they do as part of their roles. Not expecting much in the way of a response I was utterly flabbergasted to receive two very friendly and detailed replies in which they thanked me and the amateur astronomy community. They infact encouraged me to bypass the IAU cbat process by contacting them first with new discoveries as cbat (Central Bureau Astronomical Telegrams) was way to slow and they wanted to get onto discoveries asap as part of their work. I had found a backdoor to the slow and laborious official reporting in place at the time and this has served BOSS and the professionals we contact extremely well. The Pros do their work and then advised cbat with very detailed reports usually several days in advance of where they may have been. A win win.
So along with the excellent advice here don't be afraid to google professionals whose work may benefit from your efforts, you may well be surprised.

[cometcatcher]

Dark skies may be giving way to lights but I see a greater uptake of narrow band imaging to go deeper and shoot through the LP.

Now if someone could just invent a way to shoot through clouds for optical astronomy...

[AussieTrooper]

I wonder if some smart cookie will come up with a way to measure the full spectrum of local LP and digitally edit it out from your images.

Image stabilisation seems to be promising too. The days of looking at tiny streaks through binoculars are on the way out.

[Atmos]

PixInsight will have an obscure plugin for that like HighPassMorphologicalErrosion in the next update ;)

[Merlin66]

Ben,
The good news is that's standard practice in the world of spectroscopy.
Light pollution effectively doesn't exist for us - another benefit .......

[PeterM]

I'm gonna bump this thread by Glend as I think it is worthy of more than the excellent, but relatively few responses to date. Surely you have some thoughts on where amateur astronomy is going in 2017 and beyond?
So lets be controversial and say amateur astronomy is going nowhere, beyond the millionth observation/images of M42 that's it? The Argo Navis is dead, EQ8 didn't measure up, most commercial optics that we can buy are the equivalent of the bottom of a ground coke bottle, really why bother anways there is much more interesting stuff to watch on TV. Astro clubs are hardly of any value anymore and IIS general discussion is more interesting than all the other topics combined. Maybe the classifieds will be a happy hunting ground for those (few??) of us who are intending to make 2017 a great year for amateur astro. Surely with 10,000 members we can do better than less than 25 replies. What are you doing and where, as amateur astronomers are we going in 2017?

[Wavytone]

The USAF "wall of fire" flying laser cannons (now retired) will be sold on eBay. An enterprising amateur will pick one up for $1 and adapt it to making holes in clouds as a means of beating the weather in Sydney. Also serves as an active adaptive optic.

[Southskyscience]

Perhaps we can make a (r)evolution. As well as waiting for one.

In reply to Richard ……What you raised was so apt. Replying here, deemed still on-topic.

Visual and low-res processing have value in their own right and also the starting point for –o-scopy.

One possible path to take:


Yes, stick a grating on. Start with bright stars. Some people say Woww, some people say disappointed. Explore and enjoy for yourself. Plenty of info and helpers. Read posts in fora, especially on IIS ‘…methane on Neptune’ and ‘I found a Wolf Rayet…’ on the spectroscopy sub-forum, for starters.


Show and tell everyone around you. We owe it to ourselves and Outreach audience, to see and to know the basics. Apart from the striking beauty of it, have everyone conversant on:

“This is how astronomers know so much about objects far far out there….”

Get the numbers up. Help your club facilitate. Attend/organise workshops. Connect with others (like us) and help with producing sharable resource materials.

By these three, you will already be contributing plenty.
Then…

Team up. Synergise. Divide work. Compare results. Post, present, submit low-res work. By then, you’ll have found out how (additional texts for this exist). Or sell the thing. (=pass it on.)


If you then want to go further: next level of equipment, note what money people spend on imaging equipment etc etc etc, explore a team facility –that is what astronomy societies are about. SASER and at least one group (AAQ) are active. Read NACAA 2016 papers!!



It would be really great if you can be a cell, a light spot on a map. Let us make more light spots in all of the SH.
And every astronaut, every space probe has had people explore, experiment, fail, progress, inspire baby-astronauts, pave roads, make moon boots, make numbers.
Yes, Please stick a grating on.
.

[SimmoW]

Yes an inspiring thread!

Advances in optics seem to be much slower than other tech. So software and computer related hardware has no bounds.

As an early adopter of the ASI1600 Im very excited by CMOS astro cam developments. Significant new features at far more affordable prices.

Software? Already Sharpcap has made my setup so easy.

Haha pixinsight, yes therell be an uber deconv script and 'correct oversaturation' process....

[lazjen]

I think it's great seeing the (r)evolution with cameras happening. Essentially they're getting more effective and cheaper over time which is good.

What I would like to see is a similar process happening with mounts. Getting better tech into cheaper mounts, especially for portability. Lighter weight, higher capacity load, more stability (real AP capable), smarter mounts with quick setup times.

While I can't see it happening because of the whole niche market aspect, I think if it was cracked, this would open up astronomy to more people - those that are time and/or money poor.

[Slawomir]

Pretty images is just one aspect of work done by amateur astronomers, nontheless it was interesting to browse through the very first images posted on IIS: http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7&pp=30&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1&page=557

What stood out for me is that images posted a decade or so ago were significantly less colourful - not sure whether that is a good or bad thing.

[Shiraz]

Assume that we will continue to take pretty pictures, and that they will continue to evolve. Beyond that though, there may be many areas where more of us could extend our very nice imaging equipment and do some science - preferably as part of a pro-am collaboration. There are probably quite a few remaining niches for relatively small scopes - the following is an initial summary of what these might be. Recent technological advances - extremely low read noise sensors, very high frame rate sensors, more affordable larger scopes - will enable new approaches in some of these areas. Would be very grateful for any corrections/additions

Imaging.
1. Deep imaging of galactic star halos/bridges and dwarf galaxies associated with nearby big ones.
2. Deep imaging of farther off interesting southern regions not covered by the SDSS, panSTARRS or any other deep surveys
3. comet discovery, imaging, possibly photometry
4. SN discovery, possibly photometry
5. minor planet/asteroid studies – photometry, occlusion
6. variable star photometry
7. exo-planet discovery
- transit
- microlensing
8. colour imaging for illustration in science/outreach activity
9. narrowband widefield surveys of the southern sky (Ha, O3, S2, N2...)
10. planetary lucky imaging
spectroscopy
1. high speed solar spectroscopy
2. comet spectra
3. interesting nearby star spectroscopy
4. nearby SN characterisation
phenomenology
1. seeing statistics
2. background sky brightness
3. cloud cover statistics

[Greg Bock]

Big "like" to the posts so far....wish there was a 'Like' button here.

I'm not sure of the advances that will actually contribute to astronomical science in the coming year, my crystal ball batteries are running low. However, I am sure that determined and well thought out programs of investigation, and measurement combined with an 'Amateur/Pro " approach will continue to pay dividends into the future.

Peter Marples explained above how we, as members of the BOSS team, as well as the ASASSN team at the Ohio University have managed to connect with the professional community and I hope he imparted an understanding of the immense pleasure and pride we have of contributing to their efforts.It is certainly the reason that i continue to look up with a telescope!

I am also certain that amateurs can contribute through spectral measurements, it only takes patience, interest, and a bit of gear to make that happen!!
And don't forget, it is most important that you have fun and enjoy it!!

[Merlin66]

Evolution to me means change....
In the field of spectroscopy, all the areas mentioned by Ray are already covered by current technology. The real issue is getting more interest in the community to take the effort to get actively involved in the scientific aspects rather than the obvious "thrill seeking - gratification"
It needs to start at the ground roots - ""Why is this so?"" Where's Sumner-Miller when you need him!
Interested kids and novices have the potential to grow up to be significant contributors to all areas of astronomical science.
Even with today's equipment there's much much more we could/ should be doing......

[AussieTrooper]

Meteor research.
The increasing ease with which amateurs can access subject matter expert analysis, visually confirm and report, makes it accessible to anyone with a computer and a working set of eyeballs.
Surprisingly little is known about southern hemisphere showers, so it's something any amateur astronomer can now make an important contribution to.

[AussieTrooper]

Asteroid discovery.
Once the domain of institutions, this can now be done by amateur astronomers, without actually needing to own your own telescope.

[Slawomir]

Maybe adding a Spectroscopy section in the Images on IIS allowing people to post their attempts at capturing spectra of stars and planets would help to increase interest in this filed? What say you?

[RobF]

+1. What a fantastic time to be an amateur "pretty picture" taking astronomer. We're so spoiled.

Any how grateful we should be for IIS. I'm sure I wouldn't have learned 1/10 as much in recent years without all the info here, and the new friends and contacts met along the way.

[Shiraz]

yep, that's what I was trying to suggest Ken - the evolution will be that more of us will start to become involved in areas outside of pretty picture imaging (even though that will remain the major activity). The list was just an attempt to mark out those niches where it might make sense for us to have a go.

possibly one of the biggest problems might be establishing meaningful contacts with appropriate professional astronomers - the days where an unsolicited email will get past an organisational firewall may well be over and even the downloading of data/images etc from non-professional sources could well be banned in major astro organisations.

[glend]

Ray, why can't IIS be that vehicle for meaningful contact. All that is needed is a subforum for the pros and IIS members to discuss projects and set up teams, etc. Even teams could have their own niche project space ( under login protection perhaps). Seems to me that given the discussion of collaboration in this thread, it could be a logical venue.

[Eratosthenes]

The cost of high end optical accessories - in particular lenses has been falling. Also digital camera quality is always improving and dropping in price.

(also some of the telescope mounts you can buy now are just incredible for the price.)

[Merlin66]

Glen/ Ray et al,
We, like the BOSS guys have already established contacts with the professionals and through our efforts have also established our credibility with quality submissions of spectra to their nominated campaigns.
All the professionals (and their research students) are highly supportive of our work and go out of their way to help us understand the significance of the spectral features we record for them.
Our group SASER (Southern Astronomical Spectroscopy Email Ring)
http://saser.wholemeal.co.nz/
supports all interested amateurs in serious spectroscopy.
Likewise I have a Yahoo group with almost 1000 members, Astronomical Spectroscopy for Amateurs
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/astronomical_spectroscopy/info
which is an ideal platform for sharing both technical and observational information.

[Rob_K]

I fell through the mirror the other night and here’s what I saw. The Hubble & the James Webb in the Smithsonian, curiosities from a bygone age that were rescued from space and are now amusing hordes of visitors. Vast volumes of data are now obtained by very low-cost satellites and with an extraordinary resolution & depth, unimaginable today (OK, I imagined it… ;) ). Spectra, photometry, you name it – and around the clock. No huge databases awaiting analysis, data streamed to Earth in unprecedented, staggering quantities and put through a fully-automated pipeline for near-real time results, dial-up whatever you want for instant home delivery! But you’ll never ever discover a comet or a supernova or a nova or an asteroid or a Jupiter-strike again.

The only areas where amateurs still contribute meaningfully are bright star photometry and meteor observing. This is only because bright stars continue to oversaturate the armada of space-based cameras and because, frankly, meteor showers don’t attract a lot of scientific interest. Consequently the IMO still survives but the AAVSO has perished, the few amateur observations now being uploaded directly to CBAT, which continues to cling doggedly to its long-outdated name. Astronomy science is pretty much an armchair exercise for amateurs these days, but what an exercise with all the mind-boggling new discoveries being made.

Astro-imaging has fallen from its fad status of the early 2000’s, killed by a glut of new-generation cheap cameras and software that enabled any mug to produce Hubble-quality images with no effort or knowledge at all. These images threatened to sink internet astronomy forums with their sheer volume but in the end no-one was impressed and few people bothered anymore. Sad.

Fortunately the simple fascination and thrill of actually eye-balling the wonders of the universe is something that technology couldn’t kill and visual observers abound. But it’s a hobby-at-a-distance for anyone living within cooee of Earth’s cities where barely a star is visible in the garish yellow night sky of the suburbs. The dark sky movements of the early 2000s were never quite able to reverse the growing light pollution. Astronomy tourism is a multi-billion dollar industry – dark sky parks abound (some darker than others!) and outreach is now principally carried out professionally. Saturn is still Saturn though and the oohs and aahs of people seeing it for the first time is the same now as it was in 2017, and was in 1950 and before.

I found the mirror again and stumbled back out. There I saw another mirror marked Trump + Climate Change but that was far too scary to even contemplate entering. :eyepop: But what my little journey taught me was that I am so lucky to be living in this time. In my lifetime I’ve seen the first satellite into space, the first person into space, the first people on the Moon, the exploration of the solar system. In astronomy. I’ve seen major breakthroughs in our understanding of the Universe, the discovery of exoplanets and I’ve vicariously seen the surface of Pluto and distant comets. I’ve seen the transit of Venus, Halley’s Comet, a few Great Comets, a couple of Total Solar Eclipses, etc, all in an age that allows cheap and fast travel and has given us affordable telescopes and cameras that previous generations could only dream of. All with the Internet for learning and sharing, wow!!!! :D :)

Cheers -

[bigjoe]

Too right Chris .And go ZWO and companies like it!!
bigjoe

[Merlin66]

Rob,
Sorry to strongly disagree....
""
The only areas where amateurs still contribute meaningfully are bright star photometry and meteor observing.
""
I'm sure all the guys who contribute to BeSS and the SASER campaigns would join me in saying that the amateur spectroscopists can and do contribute significant data to many professional/ semi-professional spectral programs.
There is much much more amateur work which can be done, and I assure will continue to be appreciated by the professionals.

[glend]

Sorry Rob, i believe you are way off base. The new generation cameras and software are true enablers. As one of your so called Mugs, and having come from a film background, i can testify to the new gears significantly reduced workload. Go and have a look at early film based astro images. I don't know if there are many imagers seeking to impress, more likely it is the challenge of what can be done from a backyard observatory. There should be room for everyone, regardless of how the tools evolve. The degree of technical understanding required to image today, with those cheap cameras and software, is way more difficult than printing a photo negative and holding back the Trapezium exposure with a wand.

[Rob_K]

No Ken, you misunderstood, my post was in the "future". I fully agree with you about amateur spectroscopists today. Cheers mate! :thumbsup:

[Rob_K]

Geez guys, did you read my post? ;) :P I'm not talking about today! Fully agree with you Glen but I thought we were talking about the evolution of amateur astronomy. :shrug: :)

My feeling is that we're living in the sweetspot of amateur astronomy. We contribute data to astronomy science in so many areas, we are getting to continually push the limits of amateur astrophotography as the digital age marches on, we have affordable telescopes and so much more. But look at what is happening in professional astronomy. The sky coverage (the area where amateurs can assist) is growing. We see bigger & deeper space-based surveys as downlink speeds and processing powers are increased. If you take that to its natural conclusion, amateurs may be squeezed out, that's all I'm saying. Anyone who feels that won't happen has an equally valid point, it's just speculation! :)

Cheers -

[AussieTrooper]

- But you’ll never ever discover a comet or a supernova or a nova or an asteroid or a Jupiter-strike again.


Rob, I politely beg to differ. Read my signature and you will see why.
Amateurs now have access to professional instruments that they could never afford by themselves. I see no reason that this won't continue in the future, with amateurs able to get telescope time on space or moon based instruments. After the 10,000the KBO is discovered, the professionals may lose interest, allowing amateurs to take over the reigns.
The then long gone Hubble may well be viewed the same way that 18th century refractors are now.

[Rob_K]

Good points Ben and you could well be right. :thumbsup: My concept is that it's downlink speeds and processing power that's limiting professional surveys and leaving a sizeable chunk of data gathering to amateurs. If you crank up speeds/power to ridiculous (normal if you live in the future LOL ;) ) and chuck in developing satellite & camera technologies, then you could see cheap deep round-the-clock space-based surveys that'll pick up everything in all filters etc and the fully-automated pipeline will release results in near real-time.

They'll be unbeatable and it won't even be like today where you can still 'discover' things in survey databases (eg SOHO images, ASAS data etc) and hence my comment. But I could be 100% wrong - I think that might have happened once or twice before!! ;) :)

Cheers -

[PeterM]

Totally agree with you Robk.

To some extent that mirror you fell through is here now. Wide field low cost survey scopes are operating now as can be demonstrated by As-assn. They are getting vast amounts of data from 2 sites most everynight and data subtraction is making the process work very very well. They still request confirmation of their discoveries so there is at the moment a role for the amateur.

My last personal (15th) Supernova discovery was a year ago today in NGC5128. The past 12 months I have imaged thousands of galaxies for nix. But I have confirmed several for As-assn and thats the likely scenario for the next few years.

Soon to throw in the rapid development in AI and I think your mirror is spot on.

[Atmos]

There are still and always will be ways that amateurs can add to the scientific community. It all comes down to the why that the astronomy profession works; there are considerably more data sets in the pipeline than there are telescopes to collect. There are some thing that just won't make it into that pipeline due to the cost outweighing the benefit.

A perfect example of this is with RR Lyrae stars (a variable star with less than 24 hour cycle) having a larger secondary cycle of 20-40 days. Studies like this consume a lot of time and to get anything real out of it you need to do this to multiple targets.

[AussieTrooper]

From my (limited) experience, it’s the data mining that holds them back. For example PANSTARRS can see down to magnitude 22, yet the discovery ‘hit rate’ at this level is low. I’ve discovered and followed several objects and sent the observations in to the MPC, yet the system never worked out that they were the same object. It took an email to them, containing all the observations together, to get a provisional discovery recognised. On top of those I succeeded with, there were about another ten that I observed, and that the big surveys would have surely seen, yet the system never made the connection to.

I still think amateurs will be able to beat the surveys. At present, the surveys only spend about 30 seconds imaging any particular region because they want to image the entire sky. An amateur will use a smaller telescope and focus on a tiny region with long exposures. This is why a private 690mm reflector at Siding Springs can beat twin 2m reflectors on top of a Hawaiian volcano. The technology will change, but the concept is the same.

[Merlin66]

There's another area ignored generally by the professionals which I'm sure will continue to be the domain of the amateur - measuring double stars....
It can be now be done with some accuracy with webcam type cameras using speckle imaging.
Florent Losse has for many years supported the amateur community with his REDUC software. Well worth trying!
http://www.astrosurf.com/hfosaf/
(Just tell him I sent you!)

[Sol-Skysailor]

A request, actually 3 please:
(3= evolve, 2= revolt, 1=revolute)

1. CCD-strip mono astro EP camera, even a curved strip, or curve-adjustable!
All 1k interested in spectroscopy can sign a request/petition.
Or someone clever surely can design and manufacture. Or spec. it.
And why ever not a no-Bayer Camera, no need to deBayah nuffin’ just doan’ layah.

2. Laser Pointer. Legalised-no-fee for astronomy, by trained users max 3 concurrent/site.
Revolt. Poll. Petition. Draft a recommendation.

3. Teamwork here in Peace, in a positive environment (kindly, supportive, no putdowns, no ‘things’
that’ve needed a mod. to step in, or that’ve needed special warnings for the science forum).


If request ~ pray ~ prophesy, it might become a self-fulfilling... :-)

[Southskyscience]

Several great ideas! IIS is perfect for community collaboration. (Suavi, a special like :-) and Ben and Glen among others)

‘Open’ project subforums should be very effective, in gratitude of IIS, Wikipedia, NASA…. open for all to learn from.

Yes concur, in some cases institutions have to close part of their intellectual properties because their funding, often the individuals’ very job year to year, depends on competitiveness and chance. Much work is vested in preparing grant applications. In working with them we have to respect that.

Several avenues, it appears - perhaps like telescopes, we may have one, or more, or move from one to another:

IIS would be good for a) south celestial sky, b) multi-disciplinary, c) connecting with the ‘local’ community, d) cultivating science at home, e) contributing to Outreach.


Spectroscopy-specific (or any other field), see a number of forums and groups specifically for that. In niching out, please remember home in 1) and please remember south celestial objects.


Some Pro-Am campaign calls have great Pro-Am groups, such as SASER for the south (there are others), pick out what their members would focus on. Others are more general as in surveys....more details in other threads. Other opportunities: we can self-initiate and discover! No need to be 'the first', it's the fun of discovering for self/selves.


Possibilities of ‘individual projects’. Direct contacts with our local universities already have a road being paved, being laboured on, to be accessible and open. However in spectroscopy we are largely at the level of ‘should I start’. We need to narrow the gap, with a larger pool.

Similarly……… we can have great fun returning to, or doing more of, other science activities.

In parallel with doing any of these, our role can be in Outreach, just because we are plumb right in an ideal spot on fertile ground for growing science.

Regards
Team

for volunteer gardeners growing star science :-)

[Slawomir]

Well, after a fair bit of reading, thinking, tossing ideas...eventually I've decided to give spectroscopy a go and ordered StarAnalyser 200, which will go inside the filter wheel. Now really looking forward to testing it.

P.S. Thank you Team for a special like :hi:

[Merlin66]

Suavi,
Well done mate, good call!
The 200 grating combined with an appropriate mono camera is very capable.
It will give you the "Spectroscopy 101" experience in processes the spectral images.
If we can assist just ask......

[Slawomir]

Thank you Ken for your kind offer. Will be a few more weeks before I will be able to test it.

[Terry B]

Good thread.
I only noticed it today so haven't replied.
I agree with Ken re spectroscopy. I've had my name on a few professional papers now because of pro/am spectroscopy cooperation.
The survey scopes are making amateur discoveries less likely but survey spectroscopy is much harder to achieve so there is still a good place for amateurs to confirm discoveries.
We just need the temperature to drop so it is feasible to actually use the scope again.:P

[PeterM]

Brilliant stuff guys keep it going! Best thread for a long time. Exoplanets are something BOSS are looking into at the moment as the BIG Supernova surveys start to dominate even more with the latest WDF survey - Wider, Deeper, Faster now reporting mag 20 Southern supernova - I think they maybe Skymapper at Siding Spring?

[xelasnave]

How many hours exposure would be too much.
Say you have group on the net, a thousand or more participants.
All with the same scopes filters cameras, to standardish somewhat.
So would the be any way of looking at dark spots (capturing) in the hubble wide field with members able to down load ten hours each... Could you expect anything. 10,000 hours exposure?
Alex

[beren]

:thumbsup: Same for me, hoping to start my first steps in spectroscopy {with a star analyser} on the next clear night.

[Shiraz]

I don't think so Alex. For galaxies, the problem is that we rapidly get to a point of diminishing returns below about 25-26 mag/arcsec2, not because we cannot go deeper, but because the things we are looking for get too small as we look further and further out. When the minor axis of a galaxy gets below the resolution cell size (about 2 arcsec in Australian seeing), the pixel signal falls off with 1/distance squared, rather than just with extinction. For small galaxies that happens at roughly 1GLY - much beyond that and we run out of steam and cannot expect to see anything apart from big galaxies in deeper fields, much less resolve any detail. At Hubble resolution though, signal does not fall off rapidly until much further out, so Hubble wins easily, no matter how long we image for. For an average amateur system sampling galaxies at less than 1arcsec, we will probably hit the wall somewhere in the vicinity of a few tens of hours, depending on the exact system and on the sky brightness

For extended objects like dim closer galaxy halos/tidal streams etc, the resolution effect is unimportant and the biggest challenge is the instrumental one of controlling scattered light - and of course there is the sky gradient to deal with over moderately wide fields. Most of our scopes are not all that good re scattered light, since they collect dust in dirty low-altitude air - not pristine air up above the cloud level. We also tend to have stronger sky gradients than the folks who image under those pristine skies.

That is not to say that co-ordinating deep imaging across many scopes cannot be useful - we just have to pick the niche where our inherent limitations are acceptable - and hopefully valuable in a science sense.

[xelasnave]

Thanks Ray in line with what I expected.
Alex