Eyepiece Sunfilter AGAIN please help to do something. - UPDATED AGAIN - WITH REPLY

[[1ponders]]

If you have received the latest "WOW Sight and Sound" catalogue you will notice on page 16 three telescopes for sale :rolleyes:. Two of these scopes, both newts, are advertised with 1.25" solar filters included. I can only assume these are the extremely dangerous eyepiece filters. I am in the process of checking on this. If they are, and you have received this catalogue, please, please ring them and inform them of the dangers to people who use these filters.

[DaveO]

I thought those types of filters were banned in Australia!

[[1ponders]]

So did I. I've got the office of Fair Trading onto it atm and have contacted the head office of WOW, so let's see how we go from there.

Do you have the catalogue Dave? If you do I'd suggest going to the Office of Fair Trading website and download the safety report and send it in to them (http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/oft/oftweb.nsf/AllDocs/29DD6F751B839AFE4A256B57002F0CEF/$File/Complaint_Form_Unsafe_Product_Servi ce_V3_0805-FSO_1.pdf).

[Dujon]

Dunno, Paul. I have downloaded the latest on-line catalogue which has four telescopes listed under the 'fun' page (Page 9A). No sign of filters. Perhaps I'm missing something.

*edit*

Ah, ignore that. I just realised that the latest on-line is July 2004. :screwy::doh:

[Miaplacidus]

Mock up some official looking legal letterhead and say you are acting on behalf of several blinded clients who are intending to sue for damages. Maybe then they'll get the message.

[DaveO]

Paul, no I don't (we recycle most of the junk mail), but will keep an eye out for it. We need to make sure people don't get hurt.

[jjjnettie]

That's so dangerous.

[stephenmcnelley]

Thanks 1ponders for the document link, will fill and send before Friday.
It is upsetting to know that there are still ways importers can so easily ship these potentially dangerous things to any country, and they often do so ignorantly and with little idea of the damage they can do.
The thought of a young future astronomer or any person with damaged eyesight through that kind of ignorance is unsettling.
Fred Hollows for instance i reckon would not be happy with our regulations and screening procedures.

[[1ponders]]

I'd like to see every Queenslander who reads this thread to print out the pdf link and send it to Fair Trading Stephen. I think a concerted effort by everyone will do more good and someone occassionally making a complaint.

I contacted the company, but was not able to speak to anyone with influence. They were all in Cairns or Makay or somewhere up north opening a new store yesterday. I'll try again today and see how I go.

I might even give the local state member a go and see what happens.

[Mikezoom]

Sent!

[[1ponders]]

:thumbsup:

[mickoking]

The filters are illegal in Australia. Just contact the relevent authorities and they have to act. If not kick up a stink.

[[1ponders]]

Do you have a link for that Micko? I know it's been discussed here before, but I don't think anyone has ever been able to supply difinitive legislation. I'd love to be able to send a link to these guys.

[stephenmcnelley]

Have filled forms out today, sending tomorow.

The online catalogue doesnt feature the item so could not attach picture to forms for fair trading.

Below is what i put on the unsafe product section of the form anyway.

steve

[stephenmcnelley]

Didn't this topic used to be a sticky once?

[ving]

i have looked thru austlii database and havent found a single piece of legislation stating that :(
i even looked up australian standards and didnt find one that fit properly. :(

got any links or acts or regulations i can look up? I'd love to see some sort of legal document :thumbsup:

[[1ponders]]

Here is the sticky (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=934)

[ving]

dang, that thread has some particularly stupid and embarasing posts by me... :(
yet it still doesnt show what specific piece of legislation is for these dangerous filters. dont get me wrong people, i am not trying to protect the filters i am just curious.... as far as i am concerned the factories making them can burn down.

[stephenmcnelley]

Please take some time to fill in and send a form to fair trading people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

Only takes about 15 minutes to do:) and might help prevent a personal tragedy in the future.:(

It is not usually the retailers themselves that are specifically to blame, most are completely ignorant, preventing them from taking delivery is the go and an importation/ customs trading administrative responsibility, their existense and use is what we pay our taxes for!

oops, here is the link once again 1ponders provided earlier for the unsafe product documents-

http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/oft/oftweb.nsf/AllDocs/29DD6F751B839AFE4A256B57002F0CEF/$File/Complaint_Form_Unsafe_Product_Servi ce_V3_0805-FSO_1.pdf

[[1ponders]]

I contacted the Qld Office of Fair Trading and they finally got back to me. This looks promising.

[h0ughy]

Umm hate to be picky but a school of optometry has no clout to order anything from a supplier or manufacturer, that is only the dept of fair tradings role. They can tell them to get knotted! This sounds like its going nowhere Paul, either that or the investigator from fair trading is using very poor english and doesn't know their powers and rights as a government agency. I woud be questioning why the DFT is not acting quickly enough as the "QUT" has no duristictional rights in this fight, only DFT. JMHO:whistle:

[iceman]

I think the Dept of Fair Trading has no clue, so they're going to the university to ask someone who may know something about optics whether "they" think it's dangerous, and they'll trust their opinion.

I think it looks promising Paul, power to the people!

[ving]

well my fingers are crossed!

best of luck!

[matt]

Yeah. I agree Mike.

At least they're going the extra step and seeking an "expert" opinion rather than just telling you "thanks but no thanks".

You can only try, Paul, and good onya for doing that.:thumbsup:

[[1ponders]]

That's how I read it too Mike.

[ving]

would the said school of optometry know how unsafe these are? maybe they refered it to the school of astronomy?

best of luck anyhow.... gee i wish we could find some law!

[[1ponders]]

QUT - Qld University of Technology.....I'd hope they'd have some idea :eyepop:

[stephenmcnelley]

I recieved the same reply just now at 8.00pm, at least we got a reply, it is an indication of some due recognition of the dodgy product by the product safety unit. There are some bright people at QUT, and an optometry unit is a smart place to send the offending item IMHO, if anyone understands physical eye damages and their causes it should be an optometry crew.

Fingers crossed the product safety unit and other related departments can act effectively on any positve test outcomes, it would be a difficult task.

[gaa_ian]

A well thought out response Stephen !

[Shawn]

Send PM,s with Name and Location to some fictitious member set up exactly for that purpose, a few hundred names should do it...

S

[[1ponders]]

As well I know the wheels of bureaucracy work slowly, but as the old saying goes, "All good things take time" and this looks like a good thing :)

This is a copy of part of the email I have received regarding the progress of getting these damn things removed from circulation. I have made bold the most relevent portion of the email. :cool:

[Ric]

That's great news Paul, the quicker they are off the market the better.

Cheers

[matt]

Well done, mate:thumbsup:

I shudder every time I think of the potential harm these bits of junk can do:(

[RB]

Great news Paul, the sooner they're gone, the better.

[gaa_ian]

Thats great news Paul, Keep up the good work !

[Sausageman]

Telescopes of this sort and price are aimed at the mass market, and parents will buy them for thier children without realising the danger.

I think a more direct approach would be to email your Federal Gov't minister, especially if it is a Female, they have the Motherly instinct to protect children.

If all 2,000 + of us do that, it may have a real effect.

These EP filters need to be banned NOW, not in 6 months or a year when the study will be completed.

I will email my minister today.

Mike.

[Sausageman]

You can find a list of Ministers here
http://www.directory.gov.au/osearch.php?ou%3DMembers%20of%20the %20House%20of%20Representatives%2Co %3DCommonwealth%20Parliament%2Co%3D Commonwealth%20of%20Australia%2Cc%3 DAU&changebase

Mike

[Sausageman]

I am waiting to send this email to my Local Minister.

Dear Mr Ripoll.

As an amateur astronomer, it has come to my attention that some extremely dangerous eyepiece filters are being imported and sold to the mass market for looking at the Sun.

The company is called “Sight and Sound”

These telescopes and filters will probably be bought by parents for their children without the knowledge that using these eyepiece filters will cause damage to their children’s eyes, probably permanent.

Any telescope aimed at the Sun needs a full aperture Sun filter, I mean that the whole of the front of the telescope needs protected, the telescope’s job is to concentrate the object into an eye piece, but an eyepiece filter will NOT stop damaging sunlight.

The office of fair trading has been contacted by my colleagues, but they have passed it on to QUT. A study which may take up to a year to complete. This problem needs to be addressed immediately.

We cannot have anyone being injured permanently because profit comes before safety.

I am a member of an amateur astronomy forum called “Ice in Space” and collectively we are extremely worried about the sale of these items.
You can find our worries about these eyepieces here.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Please help us ban these extremely dangerous imports.

Yours Sincerely

Mike Boggan.

I haven't sent it yet, I will wait for some constructive critisism first.

[snowyskiesau]

My only comment is that as your letter is aimed at a politician, it may be a bit technical :)

[okiscopey]

Well done! Just a couple of suggestions:

... the whole of the front of the telescope needs protection (not 'protected')

"The office of fair trading" should be capitalised, i.e. The Office of Fair Trading

also I think this might be better:

".. an eyepiece filter will NOT stop the dangerous ultraviolet and infrared component of sunlight, and is very liable to splinter with disastrous consequences for a child's eyesight."

Aslo, we need to be on solid ground with this matter. It looks to me like the company is called "Wow Sight and Sound" not just '"Sight and Sound".

Their website is at http://www.wowwicked.com.au and they are listed on the ASIC website as follows:

Extracted from ASIC's database at AEST 22:06:19 on 22/02/2007
Name WOW SIGHT & SOUND
Registered state/no. QLD BN18569171
Type Business Names
Registration Date Unknown
Next Review Date Unknown
Status Registered
Principal Place of Business not available
Jurisdiction Office of Fair Trading, Queensland

I looked through all 24 pages of their online catalogue tonight (starting http://www.wowwicked.com.au/catpages/page1.htm ) and couldn't see any telescopes listed. Are we sure they're still selling them? I recall someone said it was only in the printed version, so is this still in circulation?

Also, did a bit of digging around and came up with this:

http://www.motorsm.com/motorsport/auto/AUS_V8_Supercar/pr_2006/03.asp

"The 'WOW' factor comes to WPS Racing (March 15, 2006): WOW Sight & Sound's National Retail Director Con Nicolas today announced the company has agreed to a long-term sponsorship agreement with WPS Racing."

So now we now who their director is, or was!

I'm not a legal person, but surely there's some sort of 'duty of care' for companies and their executives, and if the latter can be contacted directly they then cannot say they didn't know if the worst happens to one of their customers.

However I only found one link to a 'Con Nicolas' in Victoria (which may be the wrong person, so I'm not posting it here for the moment).

It IS very frustrating to have all this progress so slowly, but it's worth keeping on even if this particular company has given up with these goods. It'll surely come up again some other time, some other place.

[Gargoyle_Steve]

Wow - Sight and Sound is a Qld company - it's owners, directors, etc are the people that originally owned and operated the Brisbane Car Sound chain, and who then sold that large group of stores to become a part of the Strathfield Group (formerly Strathfield Car Radio / Car Sound?). Wow currently have stores around Qld, and one in Darwin, though they are spreading and aim to become nation wide eventually.

They have run their own car / driver in the V8 Supercar series but had a spectacular crash and rollover last season, the car was totalled, luckily the driver escaped almost unscathed.

Last I knew they were still selling the telescopes, in fact around 4-5 various models, of which I think most have the sun filter included. This was last year however, I'l endeavour to find out f they are still carrying them or not. I have personally seen these telescopes previously at the Maroochydore store.

[netwolf]

The Way I would try and explain it, perhaps on talk back radio. Would be to use the example of a magnifying glass. If you concentrate the light at a point it can start a fire. The light from the sun itself is not sufficent, but once magnified by the lens has more power. Hence it is safest to place a filter (the same way you use sunglasses) in front of the lens, rather than behind it.

Perhaps someone can polish that up a bit.
Suggest this type of thing should be aired through the current affair programs and talk back radio. Bigger audience.

Regards

[[1ponders]]

The original advert was in a printed catalogue of Wow Sight and Sound. Unfortunately they are not the only retailers that import this type of telescope with filter attachment. It would be nice if all the OFT across all the states talked constructively with each other, that way we wouldn't have to go through this process for each state.

[Sausageman]

I have sent the email to Mr Ripoll.
No reply yet.
Ministers love the publicity over issues like this.
Let us hope it happens.

Mike

[Sausageman]

I think that it doesn't really matter who imports these eyepiece Sun filters.
We just need them banned forever.

If nothing happens via the politicians, then perhaps "A current Affair" would be the answer.

Mike

[okiscopey]

Might be the most effective approach ... they do ask for story ideas. But presumably they would need some action footage (would it actually crack while the cameras were there?) and also a human interest angle. I do know someone who had one of one of these things break after a few minutes in a 3 or 4-in reflector many years ago (luckily she was looking away at the time) but she doesn't want to appear on TV. We (or ACA) would have to find a similar story methinks.

[Argonavis]

I don't think ACA is worth persuing. They only do a few dangerous toys stuff, and most of what they do is tabloid.

These products do not only need to be banned, they need to be recalled:

It would be much better to take this to the ACCC.

"It is in the best interest of suppliers and consumers to make sure that unsafe consumer products are effectively removed from the marketplace. Consumers may suffer serious injury from such products and, if they do, suppliers can be liable under the product liability provisions of the Trade Practices Act 1974 or at common law."

http://www.recalls.gov.au/recalls_guide2.php

A recall will get business where it hurts - they will have to spend money on recalling their products.

[Argonavis]

When I purchased a 13 inch Coulter dobsonian back in the 1980's, it had a product warning that "this telescope has a self destruct mechanism. If you point it at the Sun it will burn to destruction."

Very true, as anyone who has tried to point an unfiltered telescope of more than about 6 inches in apeture would find out. At the committee meeting of a local astronomy club one member volunteered that she pointed her 10 inch at the Sun (unfiltered) and it started to smoke. The experiment was aborted before the scope burst into flames.

[[1ponders]]

I have received feedback from the Queensland Tourism, Fair Trading yadda yadda.

Dear Mr Russell

Blah Blah

See attached :mad2:

I would suggest that we all contact Fair Trading (at the email in the letter if you wish) and politely let them know how we feel about these filters. A better email would be safety@dtftwid.qld.gov.au

[mill]

Once i have the garage cleaned up (promised the missus :( ).
I will make an test setup with my 10" dob and an old eyepiece.
Pity that i don't have one of those screw in filters , but i will make one with some solar film.
Then i make an movie of the filter burning up and the burning of the piece of paper that will be sitting in front of the eyepiece as if you were actually sitting in front of the scope watching the sun.
I just hope i don't make the scope burning up :(

[gaa_ian]

That is a Pathetic response from the Department of fair trading !
Obviously their Mum never told them "dont look at the sun" much less with a telescope & a cheap piece of coloured glass, between you and blindness.
Maybe an Email the Fred Hollows foundation ?
They might carry a bit more credibility than us Rabbid Astronomers ?