DMK firewire webcams "price crash"

[Robert_T]

Hi All, The Imaging Source in the US who manufacture these cameras just sent me an e-mail indicating that they've dropped the price on all their 640 x 480 firewire cameras, including the DMK 21AF04 that a few of us have been using for planetary pics posted here. If you're interested the price for this has gone from $490US to $390US... might be enough to tip the balance in favour of this over a SkyNx or sps900nc ;) Link attached

http://www.theimagingsource.com/en/products/cameras/firewire_mono/1-0-0.htm

cheers,

[[1ponders]]

Does that price drop include the colour and Bayer cameras as well Rob? :confuse3:

[iceman]

Yes, it does.

[Dennis]

Hi Robert

I've just had a look at the link and I am a little puzzled as the DMK 21AF04 is shown as US $390.00, which is what it was a couple of months ago when I last looked? Perhaps my memory is fading with too much sunspot activity?

Cheers

Dennis

[iceman]

I think you're right, Dennis.. the DMK21F04 has dropped to US$290.00.

The only difference I can see between the 21F04 and 21Af04, is that the "A" version can do 60fps while the 21F04 can only do 30fps.

Can't believe it though, my version the "A" version, cost US$490 only a few months ago, and it was 30fps - upgradable to 60fps via a firmware patch which I haven't done yet.

So US$290 is a bargain.

The 60fps is good for the moon and sun, but no good on the planets unless you had a 25" telescope :)

[Robert_T]

Hey Dennis, the DMK 21AF04 was $490US when I was looking to buy. The DMK 21F04 was $390US and both appear to have dropped $100US.

Have a look at the specifications via the links, but I was told by the Imaging Source people that the "Af" version had significantly improved noise properties - and that that was the distinguishing feature - which I regarded as important for our sort of thing!:D . Improved noice was meant to be obatined in the way the thing was put together.

cheers,

[Robert_T]

Dug up the old e-mails from imaging source on the benefits of the "AF" over the "F".... they say...

"The DMK 21AF04 has an identical mount and nearly identical form factor, however, the quality of the internal components are far superior to the DMK 21F04. This camera is a very low noise camera ....The DMK 21AF04 cameras are capable of longer integrations times and have superior digitization technology than the 21F04 models. These models have a seperate Analog Front End, DSP and firewire packet renderer, all on different layers of the board. This is much better than the problematic all in one TSB15LV01 chipset from Texas Instruments included in the 21F04 series. The bottom line is a higher quality image and more control over exposure settings and frame rates."

[iceman]

ah good info, thanks Rob.

[Dennis]

Thanks guys - I just checked the specs and noted differing exposure ranges 1/3300 to 1/30 s for non A and 1/10000 to 30 s for A, so it looks like the A version at US $390 is the only way to go.

Cheers

Dennis

[[1ponders]]

These questions might deserve a thread of their own but I think under the context of helping to decide which camera is suitable for the price I'll put them here.

I've checked the site out fairly well and while I can find information on how colour cameras work (http://www.theimagingsource.com/en/resources/whitepapers/download/howcolcamswp.en.pdf) I cant find anything that generally describes the difference between the "Colour" version and the "Bayer" versions. Rob, Dennis or Mike, can one or all explain the difference. :shrug:

Also when looking at the various tables of cameras available in each capture catagory (mono, colour, bayer) there are the headings 'Trig' and 'I/O'. What do these stand for and how do would they affect camera operation?

[anthony2302749]

Hi all

While we are on the subject of cameras I came across this camera while looking at Turnkey Solutions website http://www.turnkey-solutions.com.au/cam_unbrain_fire.htm

The B/W model is priced at about A$370

[Dennis]

Hi Paul

My understanding and knowledge is fairly thin, so take what follows with a pinch of salt!

I think that for high resolution imaging, B&W is the only way to go. Every single charge well (pixel) is devoted to capturing photons.

For Bayer cameras, the “unit of capture” appears to be groups of 4 pixels; x1 Red, x1 Blue and x2 Green. Therefore, the final image is created from the software collecting the appropriate colour information from the particular pixel (e.g. red), but then obtaining the other 2 colour elements from the surrounding pixels (e.g. blue & x2 green).

For the colour cameras in that article, they appear to use 3 ccd chips and split the incoming light via a prism to the relevant ccd.

Cheers

Dennis

[[1ponders]]

I was initially thinking that but wouldn't that make the cameras at least 3x the price (3x the chips) and be equal to the mono cameras for resolution, only you would have your colour filters built in?

[[1ponders]]

I wonder if with the 'Bayer' cameras you can download the images RAW and then do the interpolation in machine rather than in camera? (Like some of the SAC cameras)

[Dennis]

Hi Paul

You are correct...the article states:

"This evident solution also leads to excellent results
in practice. The decisive disadvantage, however,
is the high price".
Cheers

Dennis

[[1ponders]]

This bit of information is helpful, though brief. http://www.theimagingsource.com/en/resources/newsletter/archive/edition/20050419.htm
The bayer might be a better option for those looking for a colour camera but with increased frame rate. If it is similar to the SAC4.2 using Catch-42, as I think it is, then it has taken some getting used to. For me at least that is :P

[[1ponders]]

And more ...
http://www.theimagingsource.com/en/resources/newsletter/archive/edition/20030116.htm


Some interesting reading in the Newsletter Archive (http://www.theimagingsource.com/en/resources/newsletter/archive/)

[[1ponders]]

Mike, it's probably somewhere in the forum here, but to save me looking :P, can you use your DMK with K3CCDTools and other applications that use Microsoft WDM Image Capture?

[Robert_T]

Hey Paul, Mike might be able to tell you re K3CCD, I think one of the later versions does work with it. That said, the capture program that comes with the DMK is brilliant and once you've tried it I doubt you'll want to play around with K3 anymore...

cheers,

[[1ponders]]

:eyepop: Wash your mouth out Robert :eek:

:lol:

Thanks for that, Rob. :)

Now the final decision, mono/colour/bayer. I know I should be thinking of going mono but I don't know if I could be bothered mucking around with different filters, let alone the extra cost. :scared: Colour I think is out. So looks like the bayer option might be the way to go for me. That is unless you can talk me into a 900nc Rob. :lol:

[Robert_T]

well Paul, the 900nc is very shiny, much shinier than the DMK which looks kinda industrial - does anything else really matter:D

... oh and don't forget the extra bother with the firewire camera's need their own power supply. I ended up buying a fire-wire PCMCIA card for my lappy that took a 12v i/p that I simply wired up a cigarette lighter plug to it to power up...

by the way I really didn't think I could stomach the mono and filter wheel routines either, but after a few runs it became a non issue....:thumbsup:

[[1ponders]]

I've already got the PCMCIA card for the lappy, just don't have anything to run off it. Guess I'd better get a camera then :lol:

Where did you pick up your filters and wheel Rob. And what sort of damage are we looking at :scared2:

[Robert_T]

Paul, I got my filter wheel - a motorised Homeyer with True Tech filters -second hand from Gary Beal. Works a treat, but don't know what a new one would set you back. Mike has got the good oil on the various filter wheel options from memory... they're not cheap. Motorised ones are range from around $750AU upwards. :scared: You can pick up cheap manual wheels like the ATik that Mike has a lot cheaper than that though and maybe motorise that?

cheers,

[[1ponders]]

You mean me play with electricity :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Give me a plant and I'll produce a million of them for you. Put a battery and a screw driver in my hand and I'll blackout all of Australia :lol:

[[1ponders]]

btw I found that old thread "Which Filter Wheel and Why" (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=11270)

[iceman]

Mono is the best, you know the reasons why. But it is more work.

Lester ended up getting the colour DMK, though i'm not sure how he's going with it lately with no planets up. It would definitely be more convenient, but the advantages outweighed the disadvantages for me.

Sometimes though I wish I was still using a ToUcam :)

[[1ponders]]

:lol: You still can be Mike :D How much do you want to sell your dmk and wheel for ? :D

[[1ponders]]

OK the wallets out and I'm on the Image Processing website. Who's going to help me spend my money? DMK21F04 or the DMK21AF04? Is that extra 30fps really going to be of use? How big a difference is the noise factor between the two. Anyone know?

[iceman]

From the stuff Robert posted before, the DMK21AF04 is the way to go.

Just don't forget the extra costs:
- Filter wheel
- Astronomik RGB filters ($360+)
- Powered hub
- External harddirve (optional)

Do you want it for planetary/lunar/solar, or deepspace stuff?

Paolo Lazzarotti has a range of planetary cams coming out at the end of the year, apparently BETTER than the DMK21AF04 and lower noise, 14bit, and around the same cost.

Might be worth waiting.

[[1ponders]]

Got the powered hub and the external HDD. Looking at the ATiK filter wheel or the Sirius Filter wheel or even the cheap Lumincon filter slider. Those Astronomik filters are a killer hey. The Sirius wheel comes with filters though. :confuse3:

I guess that's the other thing. These are only 8 bit (I think) 12 or higher would be nice.

[[1ponders]]

What's the powered hub for if these are firewire?

[iceman]

Because the laptop doesn't supply enough power for the camera through the PCMCIA port.

If your laptop has a native 6-pin firewire port it should be ok.

btw I wouldn't recommend anything other than astronomik filters now.. the baader ones I used just didn't cut it.. not enough light transmission.

[[1ponders]]

Gotcha. The PCMCIA card I have has a power port to supply power, will that be enough?

[iceman]

Not in my case, it just didn't power it. Cheap ebay crud. The external hub worked a beauty. Got it from streetwise.com.au for about AU$85.

Just another source of power required and more things to plug in.

[[1ponders]]

BTW it will be for planetary/Luna/Solar.

As to why I want to get one now......I've been stuck on my...backside... inside for nearly three weeks, the only imaging I've done are those sunspots and Mercury shots when my lovely wife has set up for me in the mornings before she goes to work. I'm getting desperate. I've either got to start doing some imaging (ha) or I'VE GOTTA BUY SOMETHING!!!!!! I nearly bought myself a Solarmax 60 this morning, but fortunately sanity prevailed :lol: :rofl: :screwy::juggle: :driving: :screwy: :reindeer: :screwy: :rofl: :lol: :sad:


:help2:

[[1ponders]]

Hmmm sounds like my no-name one. :shrug:

[iceman]

The DMK21AF04 is great, Paul. If you want one, get it and use it until Paolo's cameras get a bit of a reputation. If you want to upgrade, you won't have any trouble selling the DMK I'm sure.

[[1ponders]]

Now that's more like it Mike. Now your sounding like Sya :lol:

[[1ponders]]

Ok now which filter setup? Manual will be fine.
The Sirius comes with filters (http://www.kendrickastro.com/astro/filter_sirius.html)but I don't know what they are like.
ATiK manual filter wheel (http://www.astrovid.com/prod_details.php?pid=2680&querystr=filter%20wheel)
Apogee filter wheel (http://www.apogeeinc.com/product.asp?itemid=436)

[iceman]

I like the Atik, it's what I've got. I don't find the manual much of a pain at all, it only takes a second and the wobble only lasts 3-6 seconds depending on how careful you are.

[[1ponders]]

Did you get yours OS or here in Australia? Also is the thread on the telescope side genuine female T thread? I've bought a few things that have said the thread was T and turned out not to be.

[Dennis]

I'm leaning this way too, as Paolo’s protoype(s) are due out in Dec 2006. Not sure when volume production would start, or if any delays are expected, so the wait could be several weeks?

I'll probably get the DMK 21AF04 mono as my main interest is the Moon. Planets are secondary and can wait until I have the readies to get a colour filter wheel, which will likely be the True Tech motorised one, as it appears to fit my SBIG ST7E as well - two for the price of one!

Cheers

Dennis

[[1ponders]]

I tell you what Dennis, I'll be getting the DMK, so why don't you get the SkyNyx 2.1 mono and when you want to swap I'll be happy to oblige. ;)

[Harpspitfire]

after reading this-i have a question- is the DMK (non 'a') model- the cheap one for US $260, better then the ToUcam?-- and from what im reading the 'bayer' model take color images but does it better right?- and finally- LOL, all you need is the camera/ and add a power supply to be up and running?? thx- john

[[1ponders]]

From what I understand the bayer gives you the option of allowing the camera to do the bayer integration like a normal colour camera or allows you to download the RAW avi and then apply the integration in your computer with integration parameters that you choose. There is a Bayer demonstration program you can download that sorta helps to understand the process.

Have a look at the links on this page http://www.theimagingsource.com/en/products/cameras/firewire_bayer/dbk21af04/documentation/

[Dennis]

I think I would prefer to spend the US $390 on the A model which has been used so effectively by imagers world wide, rather than risk "wasting" US $260 on the non A model on the off chance that it might be okay.

The buyer’s remorse would be unbearable, and then perhaps you'd have to spend the US $390 to get the "correct" model?

Cheers

Dennis

[Robert_T]

This worked for me Paul, I just rigged up a cigarette lighter socket fed 12 V input to the card and it runs the camera fine...

hey this thread has gone HOT, who would have ever thought:D

cheers,

[[1ponders]]

Naturally, it's going to be the hot topic for the next planetary imaging season: What to step up to when you are done with a ToUcam ;)

I've just realized where this thread is :doh:. It's in Eyepieces, Barlows and Filters. I think I'll move it to Equipment so those that do searches can find it easier.

[Dennis]

Hey Paul

Wouldn't it be a very noble, altruistic and gallant gesture if Mike and Robert sent us their DMK's for us to trial, for say, 4 or 5 weeks? ;) ;)

Cheers

Dennis

[[1ponders]]

I think that would be a very gentlemanly thing to do Dennis. Mind you Saturn is still a fair way off opposition, as is Jupiter, so it might need to be a bit longer than 4 or 5 weeks. I was thinking more on the lines of 4 or 5 months. I'd be more than happy to lend one of them my ToUcam in the interim. :innocent:

[iceman]

Sure Dennis, just send me your EM200 in exchange :P

[Robert_T]

yes it would be, but I find I've rarely been described as noble or altruistic and the most gallant thing I've ever done is leave the toilet seat down ... so how does "you can prise it from my smouldering corpse sound instead?":P

I any case, I can tell that Paul just NEEDS to buy something (know that feeling:thumbsup: )... and a loaner just won't cut it ...

c'mon guys break out the cash, you know you want to;)

[[1ponders]]

:lol:

Ooooooo...gets a bit possessive of his toys, 'eh Dennis :lol:

What this Imaging crowd like to deal with Mike. I've receive a quote from them and replied, but not haveing dealt with a European online store I'm not sure what to expect. There's no "Add to Cart" button which tends to leave me floundering :lol:

[iceman]

I got mine from telescopes-astronomy, but I have a dead pixel (always "on") and so i'm trying to get mine replaced. I tried going direct to TIS but they said I needed to go through where I bought it.

So i've been trying to get it replaced through Matt for about a month now, no luck yet.

TIS do seem good though, i've dealt with them regarding some support issues (30fps etc), and Stefan is very helpful.

[Dennis]

Hi Paul

This is how you make payment from a quote I received:

"Terms of payment: In advance by wire transfer to our bank account or by cheque. Please request that we send you a Proforma invoice."
Cheers

Dennis

[gbeal]

Paul,
I dealt with Johannes, when I bought the DMK that Rob T now has.
They were great to deal with, and I don't actually recall using the wire transfer thing. I thought I simply charged the CC. Either way it took about a week, and came more or less as I expected.
Given though that Mike got his locally, and for similar money I reckon that is the best, support local and all that.

[[1ponders]]

Cheers Dennis, thanks, I missed that paragraph in quick initial read through.

[[1ponders]]

:confuse3: I thought about that Gary but sometimes Matt's a bit hard to track down :P I'll go with the TIS seeing as they are getting good wraps here ;)

[Dennis]

The Imaging Source sent me a pro forma invoice with their bank/account details and shipping costs. The shipping costs are listed as US $56.00. Also, the fee charged by my bank for each international money transfer is AU $22. So, the camera is going to cost US $390 + US $56 + AU $22 and then there is this clause too……

"In addition to any fees and charges imposed by the Bank, the processing of this payment to the beneficiary will be the subject of fees and charges imposed by overseas banks involved in the transaction."

This confirms that the Telescopes & Astronomy’s (http://www.telescopes-astronomy.com.au/telescopes002.htm)prices are quite keen.

Telescopes & Astronomy’s (http://www.telescopes-astronomy.com.au/telescopes002.htm) website = AU $695.00 + AU $12.00 postage = AU $707
Overseas = AU $527 + AU $76.00 postage + AU $22.00 bank charge = AU $625 (at currency rate = 0.74) and hope that there are no other bank fees, duty, customs, clearing charges, GST charges etc……

Hmm, food for thought eh.

Dennis

PS – The financial details posted here are publicly available on the respective websites, so I trust that I am not disclosing any information meant for my eyes only. Also, the data is correct at the date and time of this e-mail and may change with time.

[iceman]

I'd be asking Matt Lovell for current prices of the DMK - the AU$695 is the price I paid when they were US$490.

They should be cheaper now, given that they've dropped US$100 from TIS.

[[1ponders]]

What's your secret Dennis. I'm still waiting for the Proforma Invoice. I received the quote but that is the last I've heard from them. They aren't replying to my emails :mad2:

[Dennis]

Hi Paul

Mine arrived 2 days after I asked for one. Don't forget the time zone difference and the weekend.

Cheers

Dennis

[Dennis]

Thanks Mike - I'll do that.

Cheers

Dennis

PS - if there is a significant saving, I'll be sure to share 50% with IIS due to the valuable support from the community at large that helps one arrive at purchasing decisions.

[iceman]

We love to help people spend money, no doubt about that :)

[[1ponders]]

Oh I received an email saying the Invoice was attached, but it wasn't. Since then ...nothing. :shrug:

[Dennis]

Hi Paul

Sorry to hear that. So far, TIS have been very professional, responsive and reliable and my Pro Forma arrived as a PDF attached to the e-mail. I wonder if your ISP or internet security software has stripped it off?

Cheers

Dennis

[[1ponders]]

Shouldn't have Dennis, other pdf files get through np.

[bird]

Good reading through this thread, nice to see the firewire cameras getting more popular, and $390 for the AF04 sounds like a good deal. I'm tempted to buy one to add to the collection :-) I'm curious how it stacks up against the other cams sitting around here...

The main advantage of teh "bayer" colour cameras is that they send an image stream the same size as the mono cameras, and it's up to you (or your software) to recreate the colour image in the PC. So the images sent from the camera to the PC are 1/3 the size of the full colour images.

Still, no doubt about it, the mono camera + filters is the way to go. It just has so many advantages in image quality and flexibility.

cheers, Bird

[[1ponders]]

Proforma finally turned up. Now comes the hard part. Parting with the moolah

Any word at all from Matt re your camera Mike? How about a possible price drop ;)

[iceman]

You need to ask Matt for the price drop - I need to send mine back to get rid of the dead white pixel :(

[Dennis]

I e-mailed Matt on Mon 20th Nov, asking for a current price and am awaiting his reply before I make a decision.

Cheers

Dennis

Mike - Can you make a dead pixel mask so that it can be removed from your images?

[[1ponders]]

Jeez that's a small mask Dennis ;)



:lol:

[Dennis]

Hi Guys

Matthew (Telescopes & Astronomy (http://www.telescopes-astronomy.com.au/telescopes002.htm)) has just advised me that his new price for the DMK 21AF04 is now $610 so I’ve just placed my order! Matthew has also been very helpful in describing and providing the various accessories required to get the DMK working in the field.

Cheers

Dennis

[[1ponders]]

Ditto. I've placed my order as well :thumbsup: ;)

[h0ughy]

ok so what is the final cost? you know with the works!!:shrug:

BTW your two are just baiting the weather gods arn't you. is there a cyclone due soon?;)

[[1ponders]]

Only near Brisbane h0ughy ;)

Are you talking camera, filter wheel, RGB filters, external firewire hub and cables?

[h0ughy]

Yes, I have caught snippets of this thread throughout and there has been a lot of discussion and working out the best options. Since you guys have done all the hard work, i am more than curious as to the final costs and Equipment list required to fire it up and suck in the photons!;) :D

[[1ponders]]

Well as Dennis said the camera is $610 (plus postage). The rest of the gears lists like this;

ATiK filter wheel $199
Astronomik RGB filters $180

and if you don't have firewire connections for your lappy


Cables x2 $24 each
Belkin Power Supply Hub $85

and if you want to connect to the back of an SCT
CS Adaptor $45

So basically camera, wheel (manual) and filters = 1 grand

[iceman]

Are you sure about this?

The astronomiks brand are over $350.

[[1ponders]]

That's what I was quoted Mike, which is why I've jumped at them. It's not the LRGB, but RGB if that makes any difference.

[iceman]

hmm, i'd triple-check and make sure you're not getting the baader set.

[[1ponders]]

Will do.

[Dennis]

Hi Guys

From True Technology in the UK, I've got the Astronomik Type 2 filters (IR block & Parfocal) with the True Technology filter wheel as the filter wheel can be used for both my ST7E and the DMK.

The specs on the filters state:

“Astronomik - 1.25 Inch LRGB Dichroic Filter Set Type II with Built-in IR Block. 95-97% Transmission Dichroic Filter with Built-in IR Blocking. Highest transmission dichroic filters available. Glass is 2mm in thickness and stars will retain their diffraction rings”.

Parfocal is good so (hopefully) you don’t have to re-focus each colour when the filter wheel swaps the filters.

It’s also worth bearing in mind that the DMK is not a “magic bullet” to good hi-res images. I am hoping that my main gain (pun intended) over the ToUcam will be less noise when the Gain is pumped up, and an uncompressed frame rate of at least 10 or 15 fps. Otherwise, my optics and set up are the same so nothing new can come from those elements of the system.

Cheers

Dennis

[bird]

Paul, be careful which filters you get. The LRGB are significantly better for tri-colour imaging. Check out the Astronomik website.

cheers, Bird

[bird]

Dennis, that's what I'm using (Tru-tech wheel + Astronomik 1.25" LRGB dichroic filters). Works great.

Bird

[[1ponders]]

Thanks for the heads up bird.