Scope / Mount Weight Question

[mikeyjames]

Hi all,
This is my fist post after lurking and sponging information for a couple of months.

I am thinking of getting a SkyWatcher Black Diamond 250/1200, paired with a NEQ6Pro GoTo. With their 10% off special at Andrews at the moment the total is $2500, which seems much better than anywhere else.

Scope - http://www.ozscopes.com.au/skywatcher-black-diamond-250-1200-photo-reflector-ota.html

Mount - http://www.ozscopes.com.au/skywatcher-neq6-pro-mount.html

Links are from Ozscopes as I can't find how to link to anything other than a generic page with heaps of products with Andrews.

From what I can gather the mount is rated somewhere between 18.2kg and 20kg:question:, depending on which site you look at. My scope seems to come in at 14.3kg. I then plan to try a bit of Astrophotography, starting with the planets, with a Canon 60D (can get on eBay/Gumtree for around $400).

Getting back to the weight issue. I've seen some forums posts say never go beyond 50% of payload capacity for astrophotography and others say up to 75% is okay. I see my setup would be around 15.3kg (76% - 84% depending on actual payload of 18.2 or 20kg).

There is no way on earth I can afford the next weight level up for a mount (around $5500 for an EQ8 Vs $1799-10% for the NEQ6).

I suppose I understand the weight is not ideal, but would it render it totally useless for anything other than short exposure? Would it be okay to have a go at the DSO stuff later with this setup, understanding it may be a little difficult? Am I in danger of wrecking the mount with this weight attached?

Also thinking about getting the camera modded for better H-Alpha. Has anyone used Sun East in Hong Kong? They do it for $170AUD which includes both filter and workshop charges, a lot cheaper than anywhere else I have found (some charge more than this just for the labour)

Any suggestions appreciated, including thoughts on the camera setup, including 60D in general, etc.

Cheers
Mick

[Merlin66]

Mick,
A well balanced NEQ6 will handle the load.
Re camera - for planets/ lunar/ solar a CCD camera is better - fast frame rates and ability to stack etc.
I prefer mono (better resolution) but colour is OK.
Look at the ZXO ASI range - I use the ASI 174MM for solar
A DSLR is a good starting point for DSO - good support for Canons and some good software out there to control it. Problem is the next step on the ladder guiding.....
I have both a modded 1000D (FULL full mod - both filters removed -for spectroscopy) and a std 450D for general shots.
I can't comment on mod suppliers/ pricing, I got mine done while in the UK by Andy at Astronomiser.

[Atmos]

The NEQ6 is rated at 20 KG payload which it will handle for visual as long as there is no wind! For photography you are right, a general rule of thumb is 50-75% of rated max is theoretical max for astrophotography. That is not to say that it won't do it, just that the tollerances for perfection get tighter.

Another thing you'll want to throw into the mix is a coma corrector like the Baader MPCC and t-ring adapter for perfect Canon back focus. There is no doubt that an EQ8 will handle it a lot better but as long as you get your balance right and don't try imaging in the breeze it will work. You will need patience though that's for sure. A LOT easier starting with a smaller short focal length scope first.

As has been mentioned, you'll also want to eventually get into auto guiding.

[mikeyjames]

Thanks Merlin. I'm beginning to see I have now started a process of never ending learning - I'm 50 next year so I supposed the learning will be good to keep the brain going for another few years:)

I had a quick look at the camera. Just to make sure I get it:
Your one does 128FPS @ 1936 x 1216 (2.3MP)
Mine will do 60FPS @ 640 x 480 (0.3MP)
If I have this right, that's quite a difference.

One more question. Would the full spectrum allow better thing in the future over just getting the H-a mod?

Appreciate the help
Thanks
Mick

[mikeyjames]

Hi Atmos
Appreciate the help. Another request (or query). I have done quite a bit of reading bust this is the first time I have come across the term "back focus". When you say "t-ring adapter" do you mean the one like this (link below)?

http://www.ozscopes.com.au/celestron-t-adapter-universal-1-25-in.html

Or is there some other type I need?

Once again, I appreciate the help
Cheers
Mick

[Merlin66]

Mick,
The full spectrum (Colour filter only removed) is all you need to get an enhanced Ha response in emission nebula.
A DSLR is not an optimum camera for planetary....

[pluto]

I totally agree with this, however, some Canon DSLRs have the centrecrop video mode (I think the 60D might have it) where it does a 640x480 video from just the pixels in the centre of the sensor. This is actually not too bad for basic planetary imaging. If you already have the camera you can get reasonable results without buying anything new... although you better get used to buying stuff if you want to get into astrophotography... ;)

[mikeyjames]

Thanks Merlin and Pluto,
Yes, the 60D has the cropped movie mode. I can pick one up pretty cheap at the moment, so may go with it for a while and see how things go with both planets and DSO. If I really like the planets I'll get something like Merlin mentioned.

But I do take the point that it's not the greatest for planets.

Cheers
Mick

[Atmos]

Close but not quite.

http://www.ozscopes.com.au/celestron-t-ring-for-35-mm-canon-eos-camera.html

I am not sure if this has a M42 or M48 inner connection but I THINK the MPCC has a M48. I don't have one so I am not sure what it has. If you ring the guys (Don) up at Bintel that'll know more of the specifications and whether there is a specific t-ring that'll suit the MPCC.

[glend]

I would avoid Ozscopes. Andrews is having a 10% off sale this week (until the 2nd of Sept). Give Luke a call at Andrews. Re astrophotography, make sure your buying an imaging capable newt, some are not suitable and do not have the focuser positioned to achieve camera focus. There are certainly Skywatcher Photo versions but they are more expensive. You might be able to get a GSO 250mm imaging newt and the NEQ6 within your budget. Look at the Andrews website the Photo versions of those Skywatcher 250mm newts is more expensive than the visual version ( by about $200). The GSO imaging newts are lower cost but have very good optics and focusers. I use GSO mirrors in my custom made 10" imaging newt and they are first class.

BTW, in my opinion, those 10" newts are close to the maximum amount of weight that can be handled by an NEQ6Pro for imaging. The general rule of thumb is to not put more than 2/3 of the stated capacity on these mounts when imaging. Once you add the weight of your camera, a guide scope, etc your going to be close to or over the imaging weight limit. I try to keep my combined scope and camera package to around 15kg and the mount performs well at that weight but its on a pier as well. This is one reason i built a carbon truss 10" imaging newt - to keep the mount load manageable.

[mikeyjames]

Thank you.

[mikeyjames]

Oz scopes are a lot more expensive. For just the scope and mount it's $3198. At Andrews I'm getting the following for $2700:

SkyWatcher Black Diamond 250/1200
EQ6Pro GoTo
1.25" 2.5x triplet Barlow
Guan Sheng laser collimator
1.25" Moon filter
Guan Sheng 15mm SV eyepiece

I have been dealing with Luke and he has been a great help, so I just shot him an email with the query re the scope being imaging capable.

Appreciate the help

Cheers
Mick

[raymo]

All Skywatcher Newts have sufficient back focus Glen, not just their
photo optimised ones. To the best of my knowledge, most GSO Newts
don't.
raymo

[Somnium]

I had pretty much the exact set up and the NEQ6 handled the load just fine, I was even running a guide scope and cooled ccd with a filter wheel in the end. So long as it is balanced, you will be fine. The thing that annoyed me about that setup was the set up and tear down, a 10" newt is not light nor is the neq6.

[Somnium]

The gso imaging newts have plenty of back focus

[mikeyjames]

Thanks. This gives me lots of hope :)

[RobF]

Have you had much experience with reflectors and setting up equatorial mounts Mick? A 10" is a hefty beast. You'll have to be patient with focus, flexure, little backfocus. Its possible to get great results, but lots of setup and tweaking as Aidan mentioned. If you really get the astrophotography bug you'll definitely need a coma corrector, OAG or guiding system, laptop, and be tempted by autofocus etc. And that's even before getting serious about your main camera.
Possible to get great results with visual, planetary and DSOs, but not the easiest way to start out.

[mikeyjames]

Hi Rob (just realised people's real names in brackets. Doh),
I was going to get a 6 inch, but after some reading I went for the 10 inch, which was biggest aperture I could afford. One reason is that I know myself really well, I would get the 6" and then want a 10" within a couple of months. The heftiness did worry me, but I think (hope) I will be patient enough to work it out. It's something I have been interested in for many years and finally have the cash to give it a go.

As for astrophotography, I am beginning to see there is a lot more to it than I thought.

Cheers
Mick

[Somnium]

for astrophotography you almost need an obsessive personality. you will encounter issues, it will be frustrating and it will take you a long time to get results that some of the guys are posting here. it is an incredibly rewarding hobby but if you are not genuinely willing to put a lot of effort into it, the scope will gather dust.

[mikeyjames]

Hi Aidan,
I think I have the obsessive part down pretty well.

I just checked out your Facebook page and a YouTube video of your setup - wow!:eyepop:

Overall, I guess you're telling me not to expect photos like yours without lots of frustration, learning, effort, and some extra purchases.

Out of interest, where would you suggest I start with astrophotography? Maybe the moon and go from there?

BTW - I forgot to ask earlier. When you had the same setup did you need any extra weights to balance it?

Thanks for the help and advice
Mick

[pluto]

Exactly like you said, there will be a lot of frustration, learning, and effort. That will be true for any setup when starting with astrophotography but a big newt definitely adds a few extra variables.

For example I started with an ED80 on an EQ5 with a 5DmkII. So I had to learn about alignment, balance, getting focus, and working out good camera settings. And it was hard to get good results!
Your setup will require all those things plus your scope+camera weight is much closer to the mounts limit, plus you'll have to learn collimation, plus dealing with coma, and cooldowns, and dew...

So while everyone has said your setup can work, and they're right, you should be aware that you're starting with a relatively difficult setup.
The second night out with my ED80+EQ5 I was able to get 30 second shots of M42, although they were a bit average. Me thinks it will be many more nights of learning and working things out to get to the same stage with your setup. Having said that though when you do you'll be able to produce much better stuff :D

[Somnium]

the moon is always the best first target, it is really easy to get a nice image of the moon. then start on some of the relatively bright Deep sky objects, though things like M42, omega centauri and M83 are really challenging to do well.

i didn't need extra weight, but i did have a counterweight extension bar. when i changed to a ccd and filterwheel, i did need a little extra weight at times.

in terms of getting great images, there are a lot of people on this forum that produce better results than me with less expensive equipment. you can get some amazing results with the rig you are looking to get, provided you have an autoguider. it all depends on how talented you are, which in my case is the limiting factor.

if you are getting into astrophotography to take pretty pictures of anything, then definitely start with an 80 mm refractor. it is so much easier to use,light weight and great. in my case, i knew that i was really interested in galaxy imaging. that is all i wanted to do so i decided that my first set up was going to be a 10"newt and i didnt regret it.

[Atmos]

Unlike Aidan I am more interested in photographing nebula regions than galaxies so I am very happy with my 660mm focal length. If I had bucket loads of money to throw around I'd get an RH200, 8" F/3 with a focal lengthy of 600mm.

[ZeroID]

Hi Mick, I've done the 10" F5 photography thing on an EQ6 with a DIY build Serrurier truss scope. It came in at 11 kg and 17 kg with the rest of the gear attached. I gave up. At that focal length with that weight it is a major to manage especially if this is your first foray into Astrophotography. As others have mentioned you will need more than a little patience and persistence to sort out all the little problems.
I'd suggest an 8" F5 if you are hell bent down that path. Imaging is not all about aperture, the mount and accurate guiding is far more important.
I've built an 8F8 newt for imaging but it's long focal length (and OTA ) makes if a fussy beast to handle so now looking at building an 8F5 or 8F6 as a dedicated astro scope. Big enough aperture but it should weigh in below 10 kg.

[mikeyjames]

Hi Brent,
This thread has certainly given me a lot to think about.

Appreciate the help.

Cheers
Mick

[ZeroID]

Hi Mick, no problem. The whole astrophotography path is quite complex and expensive to boot. I actually switched back to a 102 mm ED F7 refractor which was far more manageable. I've only recently gone back into the reflector path.
Your biggest path is to get a simple as system going first, alignment, guiding, stability, optics options, focus and control all need to be mastered and the software and system being what it is it is not always an easy path. If something can go wrong it will.
Most astro photogs start with widefeild using a DSLR. Even if you buy a really good mount just experimenting with a small scope and DSLR is a good way to start. The small scope becomes your guide scope later when you move up the ladder and get the scope you really want and understand the parameters involved.
Keep asking questions, people here are happy to help. :thumbsup: