guns and the US Republican Convention

[Shiraz]

some things that are banned in the Convention event security zone:
coolers
rope
string
tennis balls
water pistol

some things that are OK to carry in the Convention event security zone:
AR15 assault rifle
Glock 9mm automatic
pump action shotgun

ye gods!!!

[DJT]

Jeez...where is the emo for head slap?

:doh:

That'll do..

[sn1987a]

it's a good way to get ratings :P

[glend]

It's a very different world over there, and lets keep it over there.

[Exfso]

As crazy as it sounds, Isis/terrorists probably will leave mainland USA alone, the Americans are killing more of themselves than they could ever hope to accomplish. :screwy:
Gawd what a sad state of affairs...

[traveller]

Every time there is a mass shooting in America the stocks of gun makers go up. Go figure.

[el_draco]

I lived there for a year. Day one in Nevada I was introduced to the vehicle I was driving complete with 12 guage pump, 9mm handgun, long barrelled 45 and a 22. They were gobsmacked when I declined my "personal" protection. That was almost 30 years ago.

The American dream has become the American nightmare and the mentality of the place makes me think Russian is a better bet most of the time. :screwy:

[Shiraz]

I have grandchildren living in Texas. Scary.

I don't understand how they could build up such competent armed services to protect their society from violence perpetrated by others and then let the gun worship cancer grow within that society to the point where home-grown deadly violence is the norm. Anything to make a buck.

[AndrewJ]

Its a sad indictment on how they operate, but the best one i heard yesterday was that they are thinking of banning guns inside the upcoming Trump Convention.:question:
Must be for Donnies safety.

Andrew

Latest DFAT travel advice for the US

How to avoid being killed if pulled over for a traffic stop?
Shoot first.

[glend]

Ray, it is in their Constitution, the 'right to bear arms', but of course what was written back in the 1770's to enshrine the right of the colonies to raise a militia to defend themselves from the British professional army, has been warped into justification for every man, woman, and child to own an arsenal. They are so deeply submerged in it that it seems normal. Most Americans never travel outside the US, and have no chance to encounter safe gun free environments, like Australia's, Canada, etc. I imagine Canada Customs must encounter this problem everyday at traffic border crossing, where 'packing' Yanks are turned around.

[AstralTraveller]

I imagine you are right about Canadian Customs. However, I think Canada has similar rates of gun ownership to the US but doesn't have the gun crime rate. The people of Switzerland are also heavily armed but AFAIK they also have very little gun violence. There seems to be something more to the US problem, something that has gotten into their psyche. I'm not suggesting gun control wouldn't be a good thing, I'm all for it, but I just wonder why the citizens of the US use their gun so much more than others.

[glend]

David, having spent over three decades in Canada I have some knowledge of that environment. Gun ownership in Canada is significantly lower than the US, and many other countries. Canada ranks 12th on the per capita ownership rate chart (at 30.8 per 100 people) but of course some people will own more than one so the actual number of people owning guns is much lower. Canada ranks lower than Sweden and Norway on the per capita ownership list, the US of course is way ahead of all countries. Australia is in 26th place on the chart with 21.7 per 100 people).

Compared to the loose regulatory regime in the US, Canada has a very different and difficult set of rules in regards to safety training, access to guns and licensing, and transport of guns: all of which is controlled by the RCMP. Ownership cannot be transfered without applying to the RCMP.
Magazine capacity is restricted to five rounds for most magazines designed for rifles that shoot centre-fire ammunition in a semi-automatic fashion, or ten rounds for most handgun magazines.

It an offence to possess prohibited or restricted firearms other than at a dwelling-house or authorized location. A special permit is required to tranport any weapon to any other location, issued by the RCMP.

Sorry for the long response, but it does serve to show that regulation can work, and in some ways the Canadian regs are similiar to Australian regs. Of course Australia requires a gun safe for storage, but Canada uses trigger locks and bolt removal, etc all in all they are not that different.

[casstony]

I suspect the wealth divide and greater poverty in the US (created the elite and maintained by aspirational voters) would be the root cause of greater levels of violence - throw in drug abuse and guns and it's a potent mixture.

[pmrid]

There was an item on the TV last night in which a commentator drew a connection between racial tensions between black, hispanic etc people and police. The point was made that the rate of assaults by police were disproportionately high among that grouping. We hear similar comments here about high levels of incarceration.

But nobody seems to make the response that the level of offending behaviour among those groups is also disproportionately high. Are we so hooked on the PC line that we are afraid to voice the obvious? Police should not be expected to put themselves in harms way for the sake of political correctness.

Peter.

[clive milne]

Here's the correlation between gun ownership and homicide rate:

http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Screen-Shot-2014-03-31-at-Monday-March-31-3.17-AM.png

Switzerland is worth contemplating... second highest gun ownership rate in the world and probably highest if you include the guns that it's citizens (who do national service) store at home. The survey excludes these guns because "technically" they are owned by the Swiss government. Basically, anyone and everyone in that country has easy access to a firearm. That society has one of the lowest rates of violent crime in the world. The number of police officers in the US is 270 times higher (per capita) than in Switzerland.

There is however a strong correlation between social injustice and violence.
Watch the monkey - grape experiment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg

Here's a good TED talk about the root cause of dysfunction in society:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw

It's pretty much down to a reaction against injustice, inequality and corruption.

This is an insight in to the bald faced, blazing hypocrisy of the US government and their support for cold blooded murderers ... when it suits a politically convenient narrative :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaTKDMYOBOU

[clive milne]

Yes... it says something about the values of US society when you compare them to a borderline third world country like Cuba, which has a better standard of education and easier access to health care even though they have little in the way of natural resources and have suffered under crippling, punitive sanctions... at the behest of American corporations no less.

[PCH]

You post some amazing stuff Clive, - always interesting imo. Thanks for sharing :)

[Shiraz]

yep, my understanding is that the secret service put their foot down and banned anything dangerous in the inner sanctum - but the good ol' boys are still able to openly carry their guns in the rest of the secured zone.

[AndrewJ]

Obviously, ideas are excluded from the ban?????

Andrew

[sn1987a]

I hope he wins :D

[glend]

Are you a Doomsday Prepper? ;)

[sn1987a]

Like a great man once said - " this town needs an enema " :P

[Shiraz]

The brother of one of the kids on the soccer team that my grandson plays with in Texas, just got shot in the head in a road rage incident in Colorado. He died.

[Stonius]

Jeesus Christ! How awful!

[glend]

Terrible news Ray, you must be constantly worried about your family over there.

[Shiraz]

Yes, it is very worrying that such random violence seems to be the norm. I hope that the real risk to the grandkids is actually fairly small, but it is certainly not zero. There is also an effect on society - why should kids have to be taught a procedure that will maximise their chances of staying alive if they are pulled over in a car by police - or why must they have lockdown drills in their school just in case some armed loony decides to use his AK47 for the designed purpose - and how does having senior students carrying loaded weapons improve campus safety?. As Clive pointed out, American society is quite brutish at the core and that makes for a dangerous cocktail when there is unfettered access to deadly weapons - but there is a large and powerful lobby that just doesn't give a stuff about that.

"Effective Dates: August 1, 2016 for all state 4-year colleges and universities; August 1, 2017 for all state 2-year and junior colleges.
The new Texas law will permit individuals who have obtained a concealed handgun license (CHL) to carry their loaded, concealed weapon in college and university buildings."

[Exfso]

The mind boggles, what a sick place to live:screwy:

[Exfso]

[QUOTE"Effective Dates: August 1, 2016 for all state 4-year colleges and universities; August 1, 2017 for all state 2-year and junior colleges.
The new Texas law will permit individuals who have obtained a concealed handgun license (CHL) to carry their loaded, concealed weapon in college and university buildings."[/QUOTE]

The mind boggles what a sick place to live

[Exfso]

Looks like I stuffed that reply up. anyway I think you get the gist of my thoughts....

[Stonius]

It creates a climate of fear, that people feel the need to protect themselves from - with guns. Every time a massacre happens, gun sales go up. The solution is the problem, and the effect is the cause.

[wasyoungonce]

One of my girls went to USA on a school exchange, Seattle, yes and the Boeing factory. She stayed with a great family whose parents worked at Boeing. She had a great trip ...and tour of the factory...I was apoplectic she had this and I didn't (ex Airforce tech green with envy).

Great trip for her...but I forgot or didn't even think to say..."please no guns". Yep, like most of the exchange kids...they were taken out for a good old few hrs at the range or out back of paddocks.

Look, the family were excellent, it didn't occur to them this would be an issue in the same manner it didn't occur to me she would be handed a gun. But....IMHO there is a lack of common sense here. A kid who knows nothing of firearms never touched one...given one to point and shoot!

I mean...what's the worse that can/could happen? Knowing what firearms can do do a person, especially if not trained, I just shook my head in disillusionment and still are to this day. :sadeyes:

[jwheel69]

I am a citizen of the United States and I have never owned a gun nor do I want one.

Joe Wheelock

[Kunama]

I am sure there are millions like you in the USofA, normal people going about their lives. The problem is that to the media there is no point reporting about normal people, better to report about one mother who carries a gun than a million who don't.

The recent problems in the US have highlighted that the people of the United States are not united at all.

[Shiraz]

thanks very much for your first-hand input Joe. I think that many people around the world are genuinely concerned that there is such a wide dichotomy of views in the US on the need for guns in a modern civilized society.

For example, I find it incomprehensible that some of my daughter's warm and caring friends in Texas think that it is normal that they should be armed and that the person shopping next to them in the supermarket could be carrying a deadly weapon. And that they think it is their parental duty to teach their children how to shoot to kill another person. There is something going on here that I simply do not understand. The inability of the organisers of the Republican convention to ban AR15s in the precinct - when they did ban tennis balls - just put the issue in perspective.

regards Ray

[Shiraz]

Thanks for all of the thoughtful contributions, but maybe time to draw a line under this thread?

[clive milne]

The division is artificial and deliberately inculcated imho. (Divide and conquer)

In my travels through the world, I have found most people to be more or less the same irrespective of creed, colour or religion. What distinguishes them is the prevailing political establishment which is invariably a product of the narrative set by the influence pedlars in the main stream media in that region. And so; a culture is often defined in a boardroom somewhere, for someone else's convenience (read - profit)

And for those tax franchises that have the temerity to resist hegemony?
Well, some pretext is made to manufacture our consent and AK47's are put in to the hands of thugs, drug lords and mercenary terrorists... call them free-dumb fighters or moderate rebels and it becomes a noble cause... freedom, human rights and democracy is the cry! Do we even recognise that the bodies and failed states piling up in the rear view mirror might just be growing faster than you can drive?

Consider Pakistan for a moment...
This seldom gets traction in the main stream media (unless there's a cricket match on) but that country is sliding in to chaos, radicalisation and outright civil war. It has long had a policy of creating and using jihadist groups as instruments to pursue its geopolitical interests. Many of those individuals have turned against the state. To give you a sense of scale, this shows the extent of terrorist activity in the region:
http://i0.wp.com/globalriskinsights.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/20150912_wom914_0.png
The drone strikes are in red... the number of innocent civilians killed from these strikes number in the thousands, children in the hundreds.
If it were your family in the rubble, how would you react?
There are now radicalised elements within the military who's sympathies no longer lie with the establishment. Does it get much more dangerous than a radicalised civil war in a failed state with nuclear weapons?

There is a good case to be made that the United States itself is a failed or failing state. It's population has been hugely damaged by its own permanent war (for profit) industry - capitalism at its finest! Since WW2, no less than 40 countries have been targeted and the death toll (globally) is somewhere between 20 to 50 million! ... The damage bill in the tens of trillions.

But it is not the American people driving this. The military industrialists in league with their foreign interest lobby groups (AIPAC), their mercenary proxies, banksters, Wall st criminals, political puppets, media and intellectual allies have greatly enlarged poverty and civil conflict, sabotaged the public services and social infrastructure of the country and driven it to the point of insolvency.

The wealth of the nation (and that of future generations) is drained into the war system and into the bank accounts of a small minority of greed driven psychopaths, who, are aggressively striving to go beyond mere excess. They want to go back to the feudal system with their boot on your neck.

And what stands between them now, and achieving the dream of Bolshevism two point oh?

Incidentally... just for fits and giggles... google:
'Kuhn Loeb bank funded bolsheviks'

Then google:
'Red Terror'

Funny how your history classes didn't include those two little nuggets, hey?
Biggest holocaust of the last century.... (over 60 million dead) funded by Wall street. Yeah, we'll just skip that bit.

Enjoy your weekend,
~c

[AstralTraveller]

Yep, that's a total hoot.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Clive

Another good read is "Oil The biggest business" by Christopher Tugendhat

I always liked the history of Rockefeller and the growth of Standard Oil as an example of how "private industry" could also use money to subvert nations.
Maybe not using bombs, but the end results for many who were "in the way" was the same.

Andrew

[el_draco]

So what on earth and in the heavens above would make any sane person contemplate Trump as a leader? I reckon he'll trigger at least one war even if its a civil war?:eyepop:

[Hagar]

Each to their own. At least you can carry a Swiss Army Knife classic without incurring a $1000 fine for possessing and carrying a 1" long concealed weapon. To add to the crap, walk past the door of a hotel, be stopped by police, searched for no reason, be in possession of the same little knife and cop a $2000 fine.
Australia the NANNY Country.
Victoria the NANNY State.

[casstony]

My theory: as economic conditions worsen a population will vote for more outlandish leaders in a struggle to find something different to the status quo. They know what they've got isn't working but they don't why or how to fix it. The French figured it out a couple hundred years ago.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Tony


I suspect that also requires the condition that those at the top are not suffering with the rest, and are not respected.
I like how our "just scraped in" pollies are already back talking about how they have mandates again :-( They just dont learn.
What i want is a ballot paper where i can say "no one is suitable", and its a valid vote. If that wins, then they go back and change their ideas.
Not going to happen any time soon tho.

Andrew

[el_draco]

Ah..., the good ol' days. I wonder if the same threat would inspire a little constructive thinking...:lol:

[wasyoungonce]

I don't know I mean....after all Pauline Hanson's one nation scored over half a million senate votes last election.
(http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2016/results/senate/)
Also check out some of the other "whako" party votes... Fish and chips anyone?

[clive milne]

A corrupt and manipulative media...
As bad as Trump is, (arguably amongst the worst presidential candidates in history) Clinton might actually be worse. No matter which of them wins, the American people lose.

[drylander]

yep just like our last election. We end up the loser again.
It doesn't matter no matter who we vote for we end up with a pollie. :D
Pete

[AndrewJ]

As someone once said, "Peace for our time"
See what the media spins that into now.
China, Russia and lately Turkey are all showing
signs of 1936 politics, and arent being openly challenged.
Hope im wrong.

Andrew

[jwheel69]

I have no idea.

[jwheel69]

I wish that I could provide you with an answer Ray, but I do not understand it either.

Joe

[sopticals]

The people lose. Whether the "Last TRUMP Sounds" (Revelation:Bible) or :sadeyes:otherwise.

Stephen

[casstony]

I hope you're wrong too, but history suggests we're headed for another large scale conflict - it's the logical outcome of ever increasing economic tensions. I find this particularly troubling having a 13yo son.

As a species we're a bunch of numbskulls, no more wise than other species on the planet and a lot more dangerous. It's time to shift to Mars..... or NZ, nobody in the northern hemisphere knows where that is.

[clive milne]

Ohh... there's a lot more going on here than what is making the news.

And what is making the news is distorted to the point of inversion.
The one true bit that is coming through however, is that we are on the brink of global conflict.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Clive
Fully agree.
Even listening to the propaganda the ABC radio spouts these days, you would think everyone can just live together and be happy . Rampant population growth isnt a problem, just a business opportunity to be exploited, and we arent doing well at it. ( obviously not "nimble" enough )
If they simply watched a petrie dish full of different cultures, they would see what happens when they run out of free space to grow.

Andrew

[PCH]

And there's Julie and Big Mal saying "Oh yes, we'll continue sending all our three ships into the South China Sea as is our right!"

They don't seem to have brains enough to appreciate the only way this can end. And to top it all, haven't we sold the port of Darwin to the Chinese? That will be convenient for them when they decide to invade - won't have to waste money on aviation spirit to send bombers across!

What irks me is, how come it's only us thickoes on the street that can see how patently ridiculous we've been to allow such things to happen, - along with selling them our farms etc.

The lot of them should be shot if there was any justice (pollies not Chinese).

Just my humble 2 bobs worth, no offence intended.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Paul

Whats scarier to me is they wont have to, they will just have to walk in
and say "would you like us to turn your lights back on"

A big part of the next conflict will be creating mayhem in the target country by disabling the "internet of things", and the more advanced the target, the easier it will be.
Electricity,water,sewerage and transport systems disabled.
No money, doors dont open, phones dont work, food cant be distributed.
We are an affluent country that has been brainwashed into wanting everything to be driven by our smart phones ( The govt loves that as they can track everything you do. No need for an Australia card ).
We have a braindead belief that putting everything onto the internet is good ( economically ), but the people who make this easy for us haven't been adequately putting in protections from attack.
Sure they are "looking" at how to protect majot targets, but we are all soft targets, and hacking into millions of individuals will be just as effective as taking out a power grid or 2.
We already know that several overseas "states" are actively testing out how to disable/remotely access bits of this system, but again, this is actively poo poohed by the media, as it affects profits and spooks the populace.

Andrew

[xelasnave]

Bring in compulsory military enlistment for 10 years for all, build our own neclear weapons, close our borders, particularly to anyone who goes overseas on holiday, build more gaols, and have everyone wear a uniform.Get rid of credit and paper money and all citizens to work 14 hours a day.
No imports or exports get rid of churches, universities and all luxury items.
The only problem will be all the people wanting to get in...
Alex

[glend]

Hmmm, sounds like North Korea.;)

[sn1987a]

I spotted my fallback position while tracking the Russian balloonist yesterday. :P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Ele_Amsterdam

[xelasnave]

I just took bits from various promises for the perfect state from various propositions presented through history.
At least with the election out of the way we can get down to serious matters ...the leader ship battles with in each of the parties for until that all settles down they won't be able to address the pressing issues of their pay increases and extension of benefits for their retirements.
It is only be making those at the top very well off that the wealth trickle down effect can work and benefit the citizens.
Alex

[PCH]

You're a card Alex. It'd be funny if it weren't so damn true :shrug:

[Hagar]

Just read a post here on hacking our power grid. What a load of dribble. If the scribe who wrote this dribble knew as much about the Australian power grid and the facilities and processes involved perhaps he would be more worried out how he will cope when he runs out of dope. Light up another.

[glend]

Alex i see Labour is ahead of you re benefits, by enlarging their shadow ministry today to a record 32 to accomodate all the factional favorites who want more from the public teat, and so Bill can avoid any faction tantrums and backstabbing.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Doug

It seemed to have worked well for a while in the Ukraine earlier this year.
Proof of concept??????
Also, there is more than one way to disable a grid ;-)
Have we thought of everything??? History would say No.
I'm sure, based on the amount of money the US/EU etc is currently spending on trying to define and block the sources of attack that it is not "dribble".

Andrew

[Nikolas]

A clip from Bowling for Columbine which gives a simplistic insight into the US psyche

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGYFRzf2Xww