Moral/ethical dilemma

[matt]

Interested to read your thoughts.

I've been liasing with an Astromarter over a 2nd-hand JMI NGF-CM focuser he had for sale.

Well .. he sold it. Then, within a week the fella who bought it decided it wasn't for him and also listed it for sale.

The dilemma?

The original list price was $180US...

Fella number 2 listed it (within days) for $225.

How do we feel about what appears to be a bit of opportunistic profiteering within our small astro communities?

I'm not saying it's wrong or right. I guess it's up to the guy to set whatever price he wants for it, but don't you think it's a bit rough to ask that much more than what you paid for the item only days before?

Shouldn't he perhaps consider passing on the same good astro "karma" and at most only look to recoup what he paid for it???

That transaction was only US-US ... so postage fees wouldn't have bumped the price up that much.

It's still a good price but.....

Like I said, I'm not too fussed about it, but it does raise an interesting ethical debate which is pertinent to IIS:)

[Ric]

Hi Matt,
I've noticed that this happens a lot on buy/sell sites even though some state that profiteering will not be tolerated, I would think that it would be almost impossible to police.

Whether it is right or wrong depends on the buyer, if they are aware of this, do they still feel that they are still getting a bargain and they always have the option to make an offer based on local knowledge and research. This is where the old saying "let the buyer beware" rings true.

Personally I do not feel that its right to take advantage of people in that way especially in a small astronomical community and would not encourage him by buying it. Also as astronomy circles tend to be small and "word of mouth" travels fast these people do not go un-noticed and end up hurting themselves by not being able to sell anything as people will not trust them.

cheers

[matt]

My thoughts exactly Ric

Thanks for your comments.

Like you say, if you're happy with the price... so be it.

You'll be pleased to know I contacted him and offered him the full amount he paid for it ... and he's had a change of heart:)

[Ric]

Hi Matt,
Thats great, I'm glad that it worked out well for you and that the seller accepted your offer for the original amount.

cheers

[mick pinner]

hi Matt, l understand what your saying and personally l would not take the time to try and make a few bucks in this manner, however if the item was cheap in the first place and the pumped up price is still reasonable then it is still a bargain.

[janoskiss]

I see nothing wrong with it, although I would not appreciate someone buying and selling for the sole purpose of profiteering and having no interest in the item beyond that, or some excuse for doing so... :whistle:

As far as selling something for more than you bought it, I have to admit that I myself have been guilty of that.

I bought a 17mm T4 off ebay and used it for several months before deciding it's not for me and I'd rather have the $$s than the EP. John (xstream) I hope will forgive me, because I sold the EP for just a few bucks under what I was willing to pay for it on ebay (my highest bid) and not the amount I actually paid, which was almost 10% less. I still would think it a good deal so I have no guilty conscience about it.

I've also had extra bits and pieces thrown in with overseas shipments, which I bought with the intention to resell unused to help cover the shipping costs. I soon found out that doing this is always more hassle than it's worth. (if you consider time spent advertising, packing and posting the goods, it works out that you are making less than the minimum wage. :P )

[ving]

i guess ti all comes down to how much it is worth. if guy#1 sold it for substantially less than its worth and guy#2 sold it for closer to its worth then its no problem morally or ethically... but it would have been nice to pass it on for the same price he got it for, not necesary, just nice. I guess not everyone is nice tho.
and at the same time, we dont know this fella who has resold it. he may be suffering financial hardships and it would be a shame to take that extra $$ away from him. might not be able feed his family because of his habits....

OR MAYBE HE IS JUST BEING GREEDY.

in the end i guess we just have to jugde him on the information we know, but thenm is that fair?

[[1ponders]]

Hard call really, I guess it depends on how guilty you feel, because that is what it boils down to. How you feel about selling an item at a price greater than you paid for it.

I mean is it wrong if I pick up say a mountain bike, in good condition, at a garage sale for $50 and then place a for sale add in the local trader for $250. Or should I say to the original sellers, "look that bike is really worth $250, here you go" and give them $250. Or I go to an import auction in Brisbane and pick up a Ferrari for $5000, is it wrong to then onsell that Ferrari for $35000?

I don't believe it is morally wrong to buy an item at a bargain price and then sell it for a, (dirty filthy word) profit later. If both the original seller and the buyer are happy with the first price where is the problem.

Of course there is the flip side. The original seller sells at a reduced price. Later they find out how much the items resale value really is. They then contact you and ask for the difference between the original price and their new discovery price. Are you going to make up the difference. I don't think so. Besides I'll bet originally that the though "Jeez that's a fantastic price. Much cheaper than I've seen it anywhere else. Damned if I'm going to let that get away. :thumbsup:" has passed through many minds when a bargain is spotted.

I know I'm not speaking for everyone here, but hands up if this thought has crossed your mind when you've seen a bargain. Ever thought of contacting the seller and saying "Hey, you've got that way too cheap."

Guilt can work both way ;)

[Starkler]

I agree with Vingster.
A person who had the great luck to be in the right place at the right time to snare a bargain isnt obligated IMO to replicate that bargain. I do however look poorly upon those who would buy and sell purely for profit as noted above.

Bargains often come about because the seller is in a big hurry to get cash and is willing to take a loss for a quick sale. By the same token we sometimes pay a premium because someone has exactly what we want at the time we want it, and its worth the bit extra for the instant gratification.

Swings and roundabouts.

[matt]

Very good and very reasonable arguments.

I have to say I pretty much agree with everything that's been written here.

Thanks for your comments folks:thumbsup:

[Rodstar]

I see transactions regarding astronomical gear no different to any other form of commodity transaction.

People trade in publicly listed shares solely for the purpose of hoping to buy low and sell high. The only "value" in shares is their trading value; there is no intrinsic value in a share certificate.

Most businesses (including astronomical vendors) buy wholesale and sell retail. The raison d'etre of their business is to sell items for more than they paid for them. As a society we tolerate this because we as individuals simply do not have the time to source the complex range of items we use and rely upon on a daily basis. That is perhaps the value added that helps us abide the price mark-up.

The value of items can increase over time. Ausastronomer was telling me only yesterday about how the value of Astrophysics refractors can increase over time....he instanced a 7" refractor which originally sold for about $11K, but was later sold for $40K.

The value of a good is never fixed; rather, it reflects the significance that the society or an individual ascribes to it at any particular point in time. Rare items are worth more than common ones. Art works generally appreciate after an artists' passing because suddenly there will be no more; there is a finite limit of items available.

If someone wants to pay me more than what I paid for an item, we are both winning.

I may sound like a rabid capitalist. But these are, as I see them, the objective facts.

[matt]

:rofl:Legal eagles

[Starkler]

On a side note, I am sometimes bemused by people who post for sale expensive items at a high percentage of new price asking, "whats wrong with you people?" when they dont get a bite after only a few days.

THe other side of the coin is buyers who have seen a particular item sold at a fire sale price get narkey because a seller is asking a higher price at the time the person in question wants to buy.

The way i see it is theres two price levels for any item of kit.

The "I want to sell this quickly" price
The "I'm willing to wait for the person who would have bought this new if unable to find 2nd hand" price

[wavelandscott]

I also tend to take the "capitalist" view on transactions...astronomical or otherwise I see no difference.

Value (real or imagined) is in the eye of the buyer/seller...unless there is some type of coercion involved then I assume that both parties were "happy" (at least satisfied) with the original transaction...as an aside from memory the unit of measure in an economic transaction (besides money) is called "utils" short for utility.

If someone then later makes another transaction and also gains more "utility" (utils/happiness/money) then hurray for free trade...

So while I am against and would feel bad if someone was "coercied" into making a bad trade, the act of buying and selling does not trouble me...

[monoxide]

when it comes down to it, an item is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it, no more, no less. :)

[janoskiss]

Ebay is a good "wash my hands" way of offloading gear at potentially higher prices than they would sell for elsewhere, e.g. here on IIS. :lol:

I put my Andrews series 500 Plossls up for $0.99 starting bid and some of them fetched more than they cost new! My conscience would not let me do it though and gave the buyer a discount so they still ended up paying a fair price. Now of course that's not ideal either, because it's unfair on bidders who were a little more informed and did not go over the top. But what are you gonna do? :shrug:

[matt]

We are lucky that we are mostly folk of "conscience" who participate in this great passion of ours:)

[xstream]

Shame, shame on you Steve! Fancy ripping off a fellow Mod. What's this world coming to?
I hope you are feeling so guilty, you can't lift your head for shame. :lol:


I actually consider it was a fair deal. If Steve made a few extra dollars so be it. These poor international travelers have to get their funds from somewhere.
In the same position I would do exactly the same, as the price by Aussie standards was still very cheap. :thumbsup:

[janoskiss]

:ashamed:

[norm]

I guess it all boils down to supply and demand as well. As some mentioned if it still ends up a bargain, both parties win. In terms of ethics, tough call.
Would I do it? In all honesty, if within the confounds of IIS probably not, because you'll get caught out pretty quickly and 2ndly their a community spirit worth preserving. If however it was on the open market, whether it be E-Bay or Trading post, I probably wouldn't lose too much sleep on it.

[Lee]

I don't see a problem..... I didn't feel bad selling a house for twice what I had paid for it 4 years previously...... but I am a capitalist mercenary pig! ;)

[matt]

I understand your point Lee. Although that's the housing market and you did wait four years to enjoy that appreciation.

This bloke waited 3 days to mark up a $180 item to $225!!!! And, as a buyer, you enter the market knowing full well you're likely to be buying for more than the vendor originally bought (most times, anyway).

The housing market is about profit, not our little private astro community:sadeyes:

Anyhoo... the upshot? I get home this afternoon after we've exchanged three e-mails saying "it's a deal and let's exchange PayPal details later tonight"... and the dirty rat tells me he's gone and sold it.

Here's the reason:

There was a little bit of miscommunication/confusion (on my part) . . . some of my incoming e-mail is going into the "Junk Folder" . . .

Interestingly, every e-mail I sent... he received A-OK and replied. What the!!!!

So it appears he's gone and got the price he wanted for it anyway, all the time letting me think we had a deal.

Now, that's what I find offensive:P

I got well and truly on my high horse and reported the matter to Astromart mods.

Nothing will come of it, but I just feel better for getting the dirty water off my chest.

I'm now rocking backwards and forward in a corner of the room chanting the mantra "Serenity now .... serenity now ... serenity now"

:lol:

[Rodstar]

At the risk of being branded a "legal eagle" again, Matt, from a strictly legal perspective you might have an enforceable legal contract.

Where there is offer and acceptance, a binding contract is formed, so long as the terms of the contract were clear. Such offer and acceptance can be demonstrated by a series of emails that result in such an offer and acceptance. Acceptance normally occurs at the time that the communique to accept is sent, not when it is received. That the email accepting the offer was lost in a "Junk Folder" does not affect the validity of the acceptance.

Of course in the real world, one would not actually take action to enforce the agreement at that level. But I guess it is nice to know that you are legally in the right.

I am currently acting for a party in a dispute in the Supreme Court of NSW where they are fighting over an amount of $US100,000,000. Now that IS an amount worth fighting over.;)

[matt]

Hey Rod!!!

Thanks for the input. I honestly meant no offense with the "legal eagle" reference and I'm sure no offense was taken:) I'm glad you're around to let us know where we stand in matters like these.

So, you reckon you can squeeze this wally for a few hundred mill for me!!!:lol:

It'll be intersting to see what reply, if any, i get from the head honchos over at Astromart

[Lee]

I would have on sold it the next day for that appreciation! :D

I do see your point about the ethics/morals and profiteering on these communities, but the first fellow sold on his own free will (I assume!) at his price.

I don't agree with the other fellow going against his word on the deal though - hopefully he'll drop it and lose the lot when it breaks! :D

[Rodstar]

I was just having a joke, Matt, no offence taken! :thumbsup:

Let us all know how you get on. I guess if you were dealing with a snake, better that you find out before you part with your hard-earned cash.

[h0ughy]

well I love a bargain just like the next guy, and can't resist them either, however a deal is a deal, and I hate being ripped off. I have had that happen a few times and I have bought heaps of stuff. for me your word is just that your word and I will hold you to the letter of the agreement. That my friends is how a trust can be bought - honest dealings gives positive and favourable results. Go down the other path and ,well, the power of free speech can be very persuasive. If your in the know, and know a lot of influential people in the right niches then you can make life hard for the person next time around. But then the christian ethos come in play, learn to forgive, never hold a grudge. BTW I am a cynical old B in this department, so don't ever cross me up on a deal. that wet feeling in the bed could be the horses head..........:D :screwy: :whistle: ;)

[Octane]

lol @ The Godfather reference with an astronomy twist!

Regards,
H