Narrowed down - choice between 2 mounts

[ballaratdragons]

I know it's hard to give an opinion or offer a suggestion without being just a little bit biased towards a certain product. . .

but I have pretty well narrowed my choices down to 2 different mounts.

I was seriously contemplating getting the HEQ5 with GoTo but have today found out the horrendous cost of getting this mount in Synscan V.3 configuration!!!

If the existing HEQ5 Pro version is available in V.3 I will consider it coz Bintel advertises them for $1799 but doesn't say whether it is the V.2.05 or V.3.

I can get a stock standard HEQ5 (no drives at all) at a good price but I want to spoil myself for a change and get GoTo.

Other than the HEQ5's, the 2 mounts I have chosen are the Celestron CG5-GT and the LXD75 with Autostar. Both are flash upgradable. I want the mount for Astrophotraphy using my ED80.

There are differences between these 2 mounts and not knowing anything about mounts it has me a little bit confused.

The CG5 has autoguiding but no PEC, whereas the LXD75 has PEC but no Autoguiding, and any other differences members may be aware of.

I have read many many reviews on both and it has made splitting the 2 even harder! Some reviews say they are both useless, others say they are both great. :shrug: There is only about $200 difference between the 2, so that doesn't come into it.

Any unbiased help would be truley appreciated. I will be sussing these mounts out at camp in 2 weeks time (if both versions are there) but it's nice to get help from more people. (Unless there are other options under $1500 that I haven't discovered yet)

Thanks in advance.

[g__day]

A suggestion from a CG5 owner, if you want to image for longer than say 5 minutes then autoguiding is probably far more important than PEC on an entry level goto mount, unless you are prepared to sit there observing your tracking with a manual (say a $300) flip mirror guider and do alignment adjustments every 30 seconds - trying not to vibrate the scope as you go?

I think the cheaper $1,299 mount is actually better equiped for guided and therefore longer duration astro photography. You other option is to do plenty of short images and stich them all together using software to re-combine images that have drifted.

[ballaratdragons]

Good point g.

The imaging I am doing at the moment (and probably for a while) is with a Modified Toucam so I doubt I will be doing 5+ minute exposures. The longest exposures I currently take with the Toucam are only 35 seconds, but I have to think of the future as well. If I end up with a better CCD imager or a DSLR then the ability to do longer exposures will be handy.

I am informed that the $1249 CG-5GT is the latest model. Not sure about the others.

I was also informed last week that the LXD75 still uses the older LXD55 motors. Dunno if thats a good thing or not.

Another thing to consider is that I will be controlling the scope from about 8 metres away in my little control room, so laptop control is a necessity.

Also, with the CG5, is there any extra accessories (cables, programmes etc) needed to autoguide it?

[Striker]

I have yet to apply pec to any of my mounts.

If I had the choice I would take Autoguiding over Pec.

Pec is more desireable for extreme Imager after perfect images.....and if this was the case you wouldn't be buying either of these mounts.

HEQ5 would be my preference then the CG5/LXD75 because of the heavier mount.

I didn't know the LXD75 didn't have a guide port.

Frank is using the CG5 mount with a SCT taking over 10minute exposures....a much more difficult task then imaging through the ED80 at 600mm focal length.

So between the 2 go the CG5.

Hope that helps Ken...all the best.

[ballaratdragons]

Thanks Toe-nails, it does. :thumbsup:

I'd love to go the HEQ5 but it is overpriced for my budget now that the V.3 is out. And it seems pointless now getting one with V.2.

[Dennis]

I'd agree with Tony – auto guiding is more important than PEC. I believe that on most small mounts, the worm/worm wheel makes a single revolution in between 6 and 8 minutes, depending on the number of teeth of the worm wheel.

With auto guiding, you can correct for Periodic Error (PE) during the worm revolution, provided the PE is smooth and doesn’t suffer from large excursions due to poor workmanship, backlash, etc. That is, you would want any gear errors (PE) to be slow and smooth, so that when you calibrate the auto guider for an imaging session, it has a chance to guide them out.

If the PE is large and jagged, then long exposure astrophotography becomes very frustrating and unsatisfactory - in fact, almost impossible.

I also think that starting out with an 80mm (presume f7?) OTA giving a focal length of 560mm is a great way to start – you’ll get some good results without too many frustrations and set backs.

Cheers

Dennis

[ballaratdragons]

Thanks Dennis

[ballaratdragons]

Now I'm more confused. I have just found an Australian site offering the HEQ5 with dual axis drives and hand control (no GoTo) for only $950.

Might be a cheaper way for me to get a HEQ5, and add GoTo at a later date.

I wonder how accurate the tracking speed is on these motor drives! :shrug:

[Striker]

If you want goto on the standard HEQ5 you need the full skyscan upgrade which is expensive....it includes the skyscan motors, control panel with quide port and controler...has to be fitted be technicians now a days.

Atleast another $1000 on top.

Come to think of it Iam not entirely sure they sell the skyscan upgrade seperately for the HEQ5 as they don't have the same control panel as the EQ6 with the guide port.

Someone else may be able to clarify.

[ballaratdragons]

Yes, they do have the V.3 upgrade for the HEQ5. That's why I turned off this particular one Tony, coz it's only the Skyscan model, not the Synscan or the V.3.:

HEQ5 Go-To, steel tripod legs and Skyscan Go-To fitted by Tasco in Australia $1699.00

For those dollars I could get the HEQ5 Pro which has the Skyscan factory fitted by Skywatcher for $1799

But also, the HEQ5 isn't able to be driven by a laptop or PC!

AAAGGGHHH!!!!! Decisions, Decisions!

[g__day]

Less desirable using old technology.



Eight metres, a CCD imager with a USB2 cable isn't going beyond 5 metres without repeaters and a powered USB2 hub.



You need a six wire cable for the autoguiding hardware an a imager that complies with the S-BIG auto-guiding standards.

You can use the Meade AutoStar, and/or run guidedog and run a virtual parallel port and an LX200 emulator through ShoeString astronomy's adapters.

Convoluted but Celestron don't seem to care much about the software side of running mounts nor documenting them well.

[ballaratdragons]

Geez! I think I should take up knitting!!!

Surely it can't be that complicated. I run the large EQ i have now, and Toucam USB2 and Accufocus etc etc thru 11m cables now without any problems.

Maybe I should just get the HEQ5 with duel drives. At least I should be able to extend the cables on that and drive it from inside my control room. Sounds simpler. I just won't have the advantage of Goto.

[g__day]

Well I've read the USB2 standard - signals aren't supposed to be supported beyond 5.06 metres - thats 6cm maximum tolerance! So I'm rather surprised and pleased for you that it works.

Changing mounts of course won't affect your existing camera choice.

Personally after having a motorised eq-3 mount and a goto CG5 - the goto wins all over the motorised mount. It makes your time so much more efficient and makes finding difficult targets alot easier.

[ballaratdragons]

I would love to have GoTo but what you are saying is involved is really turning me off them.

I suppose there's gonna be problems extending the hand controller cable on a HEQ5 Skyscan GoTo as well. (I read that they aren't PC compatible so I would have to extend the hand contrller cable)

[Fox]

Hi, Fox here. Whilst I cannot really comment about PEC vs. Autoguiding for AP, I can make some general comments about the LXD75 which I have had now for 9 months. As a mount for casual observing and Goto, I have found it very good, with reservation. Some of the construction, whilst apparently an improvement over the LXD55, is still quite crude. I've done the entire Hypertuning thing now (that's another story), and IMHO perhaps the weakest link in the LXD75 is how crudely the motors (with plastic housing which makes them quite noisy) screw onto the mount and couple with the worm gears - they attach with a single bolt and have no fine adjustment ability. The worms themselves and how the worms mesh with the RA/Dec gears, have fine adjustment ability - but how the motors couple with the worms is substandard. I could go very in depth about the mounts internals, but that's best for another forum.

On the flip side, as I said, the LXD75 suits and serves me very well for my Genesis for casual observing, and it's relatively light compared to some more serious mounts. I give the LXD75 credit for having a real role in getting me back into the hobby after a very long break. On another board, someone said to me that I would outgrow the LXD75 in 6 months - I'd probably agree with that thought, and sooner or later I can see myself upgrading to a higher level mount. Cheers, Fox.

[h0ughy]

apparently you run them in ascom under the celestron 5i emulation:D

[ballaratdragons]

Sorry guys but you are all talking waaaayyyyy over my head!

repeaters, six wire cable for the autoguiding hardware, a imager that complies with the S-BIG auto-guiding standards, Meade AutoStar and/or run guidedog and run a virtual parallel port and an LX200 emulator through ShoeString astronomy's adapters, ascom, 5i emulation . . .

Sprekkin de Deutsch?

[h0ughy]

the sparky bit gets pushed to the bit without sparky bits and it makes it go whirrr by the bit with a sparky brain.:rofl:

[ballaratdragons]

Thank you for your comments on the LXD75, Fox.

I know nothing about mounts so your comments are very helpful.

I am no less confused, but your comments have confirmed what I read in reviews. Thanks.

[ballaratdragons]

At this rate I'm almost tempted to just buy a Celestron NexStar 60 SLT
60mm x 700mm with Go-To for $499.00, rip off the crappy 60mm refractor and mount the ED80 in its place. Be a lot simpler!

[g__day]

Ken,

You can remotely control the CG5 using the freeware Nexstar via a (4 wire) cable from the handcontroller to the serial in port of a PC / laptop - no length restrictions. I made my own cable DB9 connector one end LAN connector into a LAN / Serial interface plug - materials cost 10 dollars or less. I needed a $10 multimetre and $45 crimping tool to make all my special cabling connections.

http://www.nexstarsite.com/NSOL.htm

So Goto from a remote PC with the CG5 is pretty simple once you have the cable and free software. How to wire the cable here http://www.nexstarsite.com/PCControl/RS232Cable.htm

Ideally its great if you can setup the scope - and not touch it to avoid vibration for astrophotography. So one other think you might later look at is motorised and/or computer controlled focusing, I am a few weeks away from doing remote PC controller focusing - so skip that one for the moment.

e.g. http://www.store.shoestringastronomy.com/products_fc.htm into a Meade motor focus unit

For auto-guiding you need something to mimic a S-BIG autoguide controller - unless you are fortunate to have an S-BIG unit. However these can be emulated by a PC running the right software as it processes the video in from a ccd. I happen to have bought an Meade DSI which comes with some great planetarium, imaging, focusing, dome control and auto-guding software - for Meade specific electronics. However there are great emulators out there to convert Meade proprietary commands to Celestron commands for alot of your mount control. e.g. Guidestar

http://www.skyinsight.net/wiki/index.php/GuideStar_LX200_Software_Emulator

If I where in your shoes I would research what software you need to control your mount and achieve astrophotography to make a better decision. There is a whole slew of learning and products to process an image once its been captured.

70% of the human brain is devoted to real time visual processing, and its evloved for hundreds of thousands of years. So don't think a simple CCD and some software available to day will do this all for you out of the box. CCDs capture alot of signal, but they don't necessarily present the signal you need to highlight well. They can flood you with the most obivious light data and you may have to tease out the critically important subtle stuff with specific software.

Don't let this put you off, simply continue to ask good questions and read alot is my advice.

If I had to surammise your two stated choices the CG5 is capable but you need to support it with the right software and cabling. The LXD75 is likely to be mechanically inferior but Meade bundle great, integrated software at least with their CCDs to drive their mounts far more benefically then Celestron do.

Celestron - better hardware on the Mount, possible to acquire 3rd party software to do all a Meade s/w package can can. Meade - lesser mount, better, more integrated software in my very limited experience.

What have others found?

[ballaratdragons]

Well, that's good news.



My ED80 and dob already have the Orion Accufocus fitted. :thumbsup:



You just lost me again! Damn that jargon!!! :lol:




Yep, familiar with all that. Been processing images captured in Toucam software and Desire long Exposure suite for about a year now using Registax, PaintShop Pro, and Photoshop CS.



After reading the Celestron owners manual and many reviews they all say to just plug in the RS-232 cable and Bobs your Uncle as far as Lappy controlling the mount.

I use a very large EQ mount now for Astrophotography (as well as the piddly little EQ! :lol: ). I just want a portable goTo mount for when I am away from home! Be damned if I'm gonna dissassemble and carry my 3 tonne bohemeth every time I wanna do imaging somewhere else. :P

I took the beast to the local fair on saturday, and nearly blew a foofle valve!

[g__day]

Okay then, you seem to be right on top of most of that, lets focus on autoguiding.

If you have a image comming in and some software that can scan that image in real time then you could choose a bright star in the field of view and "lock" its position on the screen. By locking its position everything else on the screen would be locked too for a reasonably properly aligned mount!

The way this works is the software views the CCD chip like a chess board and the stars like chess pieces. You have just told it to say lock it so that the Queen (a bright star) is locked on QB-4 (Queen's Bishop - four steps forward of the base line) a known pixel on the CCDs grid.

Now a star could wander off position based on either recurring errors (bad polar alignment or imperfections in the drive gears) or intermittent errors - knocks to the mount or OTA, vibrations such as wind gusts. If the errors are regular - pointing alignment or drive imperfections - one calls them periodic. In one revolution of the mounts gears you are delta x and delta y out of position - then this can be observed and corrected. That function is called PEC - periodic error correction. But to fix either random or periodic errors you can use auto-guiding.

So from the above example for whatever reason your selected guide star moves off your selected pixel. Then the software distinguishes this and generates the movement commands to the mount that should move this star back onto this pixel with a set amount of alacrity (the aggressiveness of your corrections). These commands have to be sent from the PC - say via your serial port - as an electrical signal - a usually a 6 wire flat cable - into an auto guide port on your mount. This port can make fine tuning instructions to your mount; like move three squares up and one square left on that chess board of our example.

Now apparently there is no universal standard for auto guiders - commands, electronics and signalling. But there is a defacto one because the most popular and therefore prevalant brand and model of autoguider was the $1,500 SBIG ST-4 model (which I believe has now been retired). So many manufacturers design their mounts to be compliant with the way this specific model of auto-guider worked. e.g. http://www.astrocruise.com/st4tips.htm

Now a computer program can emulate the way a dedicated piece of technology can work. A Meade DSI or LPI CCD signal can therefore be interogated (say by AutoStar Suite) a bright star selected and locked, and the software issue commands - to a Meade mount - to keep that stars position locked.

Now again Meade and Celestron don't follow universal standards to drive their mounts (pain in the posterior this lack of standards). But again you can emulate one mounts control commands and translate commands for the Meade into commands for the Celestron. So I use Meade imaging gear and software and run it into a Meade -> Celestron command convertor and send it into a Celestron CG-5 mount.

[ving]

hi ken, I have a headache now :P

in about a month (or when ever my bonus goes thru) i'll be up for a new mount too, but for my 8" newt. I am most likely going to get a heq5 from andrews @ $899 (plus rings of course). seems the cheapest and most stable way out for me but then my scope is heavier than an ed80... i too would love goto (which they sell for $1699) but that completely blows my budget :(
having stable tracking is more important to me than goto tho so thats how i made my choice. If the cg5gt ( at $1249) was just as stable i'd go that but it is not, or so i am lead to believe.

of course none of this helps you... or does it? whats important to you? maybe that will help you make your decision? :)

[Fox]

There may be merit in that, you will get Goto for only a small price. That mount though, I suspect might be very lightweight... Cheers, Fox.

[g__day]

Well on the HEQ5 that is $800 extra - at time of purchase from Andrew's - which seems very cheap. Of all his mounts the skyscan fitted goto EQ6 just under $2,000 is probably the very best budget heavy duty mount. Otherwise MyAstroShop has a EQ6 goto with SynScan V3 for $2,650

If you think lifetime value of these mounts - you're probably better saving up and buying the best you can afford - then using under calibre gear for too long.

[ballaratdragons]

Thanks guys.

Things are getting a wee bit clearer. It will be good to see these mounts in action at Camp in under 2 weeks time. By the end of Camp I reckon I should have my choice made.

That was a good explanation of how guiding works, G. Thanks for that.

[Dave47tuc]

Hi Ken,
At camp I can show you how the EQ6 type mount will go with the SynScan controller hooked up to the laptop.:D
I have yet to try this out doors, due to the weather. But indoors all looks good.;)
I also have a DSI to play with at camp, just to see how all this stuff will come together. :whistle:
Should be fun.:thumbsup:

[g__day]

My pleasure, star parties must be the best place to learn, as nothing substitutes for experience!

[netwolf]

This maybe a cheaper option to buy the mount without the goto and add this goto update alternative http://eq6.update.rajiva.de/ based on a local Australian project http://projects.gbdt.com.au/eq6-1/

Has anyone tried this?
Edit: Found one guy on another forums that seems happy with the result.
http://forums.astronomydaily.com/viewtopic.php?t=3153

Also does anyone know if the 1299 EQ6 Mount from Andrews has the new Synscan motors?

Regards
Fahim

[Fox]

Hmmm... I'll make sure I chime into this board before I think of ditching my LXD75 and upgrading to whatever. I had suspected that the Meade, notwithstanding its mechanical deficiences and basicness, had some advantage by way of system integration (DSI and AutoStar suite and all that). Thanks for all the highly detailed expert info! Fox.

[ballaratdragons]

Thanks Fahim. I actually chat with Pizwiz (the guy who has this set-up) in another forum.

And as for the EQ6 at Andrews, I have been thru all his mounts with him via email. His mounts have the old Skyscan. When I asked what he meant by 'updated' he informed me that it means that Tasco in Australia updated 'Non GoTo' mounts to GoTo's here in Oz. So they are non-drive mounts been 'updated' to become GoTo's, just with old Skyscan.

[netwolf]

Ken, in the old days the upgrade to Goto for a EQ6 involved replacement of motors, and Hand controller plus some electronics.
The new synscan non-goto EQ6 being sold are supposed to come with the new motor and electronics, hence upgrade to goto means just add a hand controller. But I suppose there might still be some of the older ones around.

As I understand it the change from V2.x - V3.x is just a change in hand controllers.

In Summary,

Old EQ6 non-goto required motor, electronics and hand controller to be made goto.
New EQ6 non-goto require just the addition of the V2.x or V3.x hand controller.

Which of this is Andrew's selling for $1299?

This is what I have concluded from what I have read on other forums and user feedback. Originally in the US orion sold the EQ-G non-goto for about 799 and goto version for 1399. Then the prices chaged to approx 1000 for the non goto version. Which indicated the motors inside were the new improved ones ready for use with the goto hand controller.

Appolgies for diverting your topic Ken. But I believe the EQ6 is the best bet for you as it gives you more options. The CG5 is ok for the small focal length work but the EQ6 could handle more. Not as much as the more pricer Vixen Atlux or Losmand G11 but its good for its price. If you consider the Cg5 goto price is the same as price as cost of an EQ6 non-goto added with the MCU upgrade goto kit. Then I would go for EQ6 as it costs delivers the same but with more capacity to carry future OTA's you might purchase.


Regards

[netwolf]

Alternatively if you wanted to spend less but get a better mount for the smaller OTA loads, then consider a second hand Vixen mounts in the lower weight categories. These will offer better precision, though the cost of goto on these is very dear. But do you really need goto for imaging? U could make it push to with a DSC.

Regards

[ballaratdragons]

Fahim, seeing as I am going to be spending a fair bit of money on a mount (well, it is a lot to me) I want to spoil myself with GoTo.
The mount I buy will be with me for many years.

22 years of chasing stuff is long enough and I'm getting lazier by the year.

Plus, being spoilt with my dark skies, it would be nice to get to those VERY faint distant Galaxies that have eluded me so far. I have out-grown the hunt for objects that can barely be seen by eye. Time to get with 'the times' and let a computer do the finding for me. :D

If I am to buy a GoTo, I'd rather get one that is 'Factory Fitted'. I have had enough of building, patching, repairing, modifying and generally 'making do with added bits and pieces'. At least if it plays up I know I will have a warranty to fall back on.

[iceman]

Your investigations are keeping me very interested, Ken.. this thread is a wealth of information so thanks to those contributing to it.

I'll be upgrading to an EQ6 (or unlikely, bigger) in the near future and also am investigating buying an EQ6 for someone who doesn't know a great deal about astronomy.. so this information is helping a great deal.

[ballaratdragons]

Yep Mike, I hope all the info people are giving will help quite a few others too.

I was going to wait until camp to do an investigative snoop around and see what is what and value for quality etc. But I have made up my mind already. After reading all the help in here, reading many reviews, talking to the 2 commonly known Telescope suppliers, and emails back and forth with owners of mounts and the great help from Dave47Tuc helping me understand a lot, I have come to the decision that I am getting a HEQ5 Pro with V.3 Synscan.

It has proven to be the best for my money and will happily carry a larger load than my ED80 later on.

It will be several weeks before this model is available so I won't have it in time for camp.

I thank everyone for their input. It has not gone to waste. :thumbsup:

Just because I have made my decision doesn't mean the conversation has to stop here though. I'm sure others like Mike for example would like to know as much as possible about making choices between different mounts.

Here is the one I have chosen: http://www.opticalvision.co.uk/documents/71.pdf

[ving]

any idea how much the heq5 pro with the ver.3 will cost ken?
looks flash!

[ballaratdragons]

I will let you know the exact dollars soon Vingo. The one I am getting is the brand new model which isn't due to be released for a few weeks yet. But it is under $2000.

[allan gould]

Ken
You will not regret your choice as I have an HEQ5-Pro with ver 3 handset. When they sort out a few bugs with the software it will be excellent. Im currently running a C8 with 70mm guidescope and 350D on the mount and it guides beautifully. Also running a WO ED 80mm triplet APO and its just beautiful.
Enjoy your choice as it will give many years of use before you run up against its limits and that will only be if you get aperture fever - but an 8" +/- a focal reducer will let you image many many objects.

[Fox]

Ken, congrats on making an excellent choice. The HEQ5-Pro is clearly that extra step up from a CG5/LXD75 and is certainly worth the extra dollars. My LXD75 is fine for visual, and it might even do me good if I have stab at entry-level astrophotography, but I can feel it in my bones that I have outgrown the limitations of the mount quite quickly. So I am contemplating the Vixen Sphinx or HEQ myself (StarBook looks really sexy, ahhh another gadget...). It's funny how I've become a lot more critical only this year before I commit to buying any astro equipment ie. doing lots of research and opinion seeking from all of you guys ( I love it....!) Cheers, Fox.

[ballaratdragons]

yeah, funny how my decision was down to a choice between the CG-5GT and the LXD75 and I end up picking the HEQ5 Pro V.3 Synscan :lol:

Research certainly helps! ;)