Blue Mountains - Katoomba Airfield, July 2nd

[mental4astro]

Hi folks,

IMPORTANT NOTICE: Katoomba Airfield closed until further notice.
Please refer to post No.17 of this thread for more information.

This year's been a dreadful one for those of us who frequent Katoomba Airfield. Late February Rod was killed in a dreadful flying accident, just off the end of the long runway. The entire flying community has been in mourning, and we, his astro friends, have also been greatly saddened by the tragedy.

The dream that Rod had for the Airfield has not been lost though. His family is also heavily involved in flying, and they have kept the Airfield open, and are welcoming of the community groups that used the Airfield previously to keep doing so.

So, thanks to the love of Rod's family and friends, we again have access to the Airfield! :)

The first session since Rod's passing will be for Saturday July 2nd. Yes it is some six weeks away, but I thought it best to give as much time as possible for everyone.

It will be hard for me to visit the Airfield, knowing Rod won't be there to greet us. I miss my friend. But I also want to help keep his dream moving along too.

I'll post more details shortly, like how to access the Airfield for those who haven't been there before and would like to come :)

Cheers,

Alex.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: Katoomba Airfield closed until further notice.
Please refer to post No.17 of this thread for more information.
Many thanks,

Alex.

[MortonH]

Hi Alex,

That's very gracious of Rod's family to let us keep using the airfield. I look forward to the winter cold up there!

[Wavytone]

Hmm... I have a better offer :D

[AG Hybrid]

I've missed the airfield. I look forward to this date.

[Oleg]

I didn't know that Rod was killed until this morning.

I reckon to die like this flying he's own plane is a great way to fall off the twig for a pilot.

He now can be at any place he wants to be so I'm pretty sure he will visit us on the next session.
He was looking after the field and devoted the rest of his life to it, he will be back from time to time.

Looking forward to 2 July.

[killswitch]

Looking forward to this as well. Its been a long time since last.

[dulwich.hill]

I am really keen to come too - it has been too long since I was up at Katoomba. My best memories of this site are winter ones with my toes freezing but the atmosphere so clear and still.

So sorry to hear news of Rod's passing. Oleg is right, he will visit us again from time to time. We should leave a scope set up just for him!

James

[AstroJason]

So nice of Rod's family to let us to continue to use the airfield. Locking in this date. Looking forward to catching up with you guys.

[andyc]

If I can come I would love to! And I'm very sorry to hear about Rod, I had no idea about the tragedy :(. Fingers crossed for good weather...

[johngwheeler]

I'd like to come if I can! Sounds a bit chilly in July though <brrrrrrr.....>

John

[MortonH]

Yep - very cold. But dark and often good transparency with not much dew.

[mental4astro]

It does get blooming cold up in the Mountains, so come prepared!

There is a combustion heater we use in the office building - it becomes centre of the Universe as everyone makes a pilgrimage to sit in front of it :lol:

You may like to also take a thermos of a hot drink - good way to warm up too.


NOTE: as when Rod was with us, the hat will get passed around to pay for the gift we give to the Airfield manager to say thanks :) we share the cost of it.

[dimithri86]

Hey Alex,

Is this event open to non iis people? I have some friends interested in astro who want to piggy back on my mount for wide field. Of course I would give them very clear instructions regarding dark spot etiquette.

Dimithri.

[mental4astro]

Hi Dimithri,

This is open to EVERYONE. It is an informal gathering, and everyone is welcome.

Don't have a scope? No problem, you are welcome to join us and have a look through our scopes.

Only have binoculars? Excellent! Bring them along! Big or small, it doesn't matter as they are all great for star viewing!!!

Have a scope? Magnificent! Bring it along! Again, don't feel ashamed by what you may think of your scope. If you are unsure how to use it to its full capabilities, this is a great chance to pick up some tips on how to get the most from your scope. I firmly believe that any scope is better than no scope.

Alex.

[mr bruess]

i gotta go

[mental4astro]

Looks like the International Space Station will be making an appearance on July 2nd too around 6:20pm.

[mental4astro]

IMPORTANT NOTICE!

Please be aware of the change of situation regarding Katoomba Airfield.

I received a call today from the family of Rod Hay. The circumstances of insurance regarding the Airfield has taken a turn for the worse, with lawyers advising that all activities on the Airfield are suspended until further notice. The Airfield is now effectively just an emergency landing strip until the insurance situation is sorted.

This has come as a big kick in the guts to everyone involved with the Airfield, not just Rod's family, but the pilots who use and maintain the site and all the community groups who have enjoyed the Airfield.

I have spoken to an IIS member who lives in Medlow Bath about looking at a couple of alternative sites for us to use on Saturday. Please look at this thread from tomorrow for news on the new alternative site we will use. Thank you so much Ivan for being boots on the ground in inspecting these new alternative sites. One of these is just past the Airfield, the other is on the way to Lithgow on the Bell's Line of Road. These two sites are being inspected and evaluated next to the condition of Mt Blackheath as our final fall back site. Hargraves Lookout is now stuffed with the new lights from the Hydro Majestic, :( :mad2:

The Airfield is a much cherished asset not just for astro and the flying fraternity, but for dozens of other community groups. There are a lot of people at work trying to sort out the situation to restore the Airfield's accessibility as it was previously. Hopefully all this will be done in the next few months - they are having to deal with a local Council and Crown Lands, not just insurance people...

[Kunama]

What a shame Alex, hopefully it can be sorted out. I just mentioned to Ivan yesterday that I would be up there on the 2nd. I'll wait for an update.
Cheers !

[MortonH]

I'm struggling with a cold so will require a late fitness test.

[Shano592]

I hope that this sorts out for you Sou'Westies (from here anyway). Always a shame when a personal tragedy occurs. When the bureaucrats get involved (even rightly so), it feels like an unnecessary kick in the backside.

Insurance will be a big sticking point for sure. I'm not sure how standing on a piece of ground is an insurance risk, but those that make the rules deem it so... what can you do?

If you are in a pinch to look upwards, the Mangrove Mountain Pony Club is looking very likely to be on this Saturday. Also likely to be cold, but probably not as cold as Katoomba. I know it is a fair drive though, but the offer is open to all.

All the best, guys and gals.

[AG Hybrid]

Hows Browntown Oval looking at the moment? Due to the tree and shrub growth the highway should be pretty much hidden.

I do enjoy Mt Blackheath though. Is Hargraves realky that bad now? I loved looking down that valley.

[Wavytone]

Adrian by all means check out BrownTown - its probably dark enough and may be OK. However in the days when I used a C8 roaming around I tried ovals in Leura Blackheath and Katoomba, and my personal experiences on ovals weren't great because the microclimate on them is unfavourable - they invariably have black soil brought in, and they're watered (to make the grass grow) which spells cold and frosts (the heat radiates away fast on black soil) and really bad dew.

It was far better to be on sandy soil or even better a sandstone outcrop which don't radiate the heat away at night and don't hold water so the dew is negligible. The airstrip was an excellent example of this.

There are a few places I reckon deserve at least going to for a look, even if you don't decide to set up and move on to the next; something to do on a night that is otherwise a bit spoiled by wind or cloud.

1. Continue on the dirt road left past the airfield to the end, this comes out at a clearing just east of Govetts Leap waterfall. The distance is trivial and if anything its further from Mellow and Blackheath so the local lights won't be an issue.

This one I think really deserves to be checked out in daylight though I suspect the road is in good shape, it looks OK on Google at least.

The only concern I'd have is whether you might get fog forming locally on a still winter night, as this is pretty close to the creek that feeds the waterfall.

2. The end of the Mt Hay Road out of north Leura, Google StreetView (!) indicates its good in all directions. Need to check the condition of the road first in daylight as the last time I drove that road was in 2004 and it was 4WD stuff, definitely unsuitable for 2WD cars. While its a bit of a drive, this site is so far into the national park the extra distance should make it comparable to observing from Mt Banks.

3. Mt Banks (Bells Line of Rd from North Richmond). Turn off the highway at the NPWS sign on the left onto a dirt road, when you see a concrete water tank on the left hand side there's a carpark on the righthand side, used to be quite good for observing. I haven't been there at night though since 2010.

Expect to be visited by the park ranger at night BTW as he does patrol this area for idiots.

4. Mt Blackheath. Hargraves has indeed been pretty much ruined by the idiots with searchlights at the Hydro.

While I have also used table rock at Kings Tableland before, I would advise against it as its not suitable for a group with more than a couple of cars and its also seriously dangerous at night as there is a huge sheer cliff close by with no safety measures whatsoever.

Another thought also comes to mind - to approach one of the landowners on Shipley Plateau that has a sizeable empty paddock and ask whether an arrangement could be made to obtain access occasionally.

Personally I'll wait til spring...

[mental4astro]

Ok,

The location at that's just past the Airfield sadly has a treeline that is too high, and the resulting sky is limited to a strip from zenith to the northwest. I am so grateful for Ivan taking the time to visit this site for us, ta mate, :thumbsup: The other site at Mt Hay Rd is a nasty, nasty, nasty road, no good either.

So, I have three other sites, all easy to get to being just one turnoff from the highway each, & they are at Blackheath and Mt Victoria. Good thing though they are not really any further than Hargraves Lookout and Mt Blackheath. One is actually closer than these two.

* 1, Old Blackheath Aerodrome - who the blazes knew there was an aerodrome there once??? :shrug: Anyway, the site is a big gravel strip at the end of the town of Blackheath at 318 Hat Hill Rd. Car access is easy with a parking lot. No street lights, though its proximity to Blackheath may see a car or two go past. Google streetview shows it horizon is very good with a low treeline.

201355

* 2, Mt Victoria Quarry - this is an abandoned stone quarry at 89 Mt York Road, Mt Victoria. I've been here one time doing a reccie of possible sites. There is a gate which is open, and the treeline is good. Bugger all traffic here at night.

201356

* 3, Roadside Obs on Victoria Falls Road - this site is 3km down Victoria Falls Rd from the Highway. It is an unsealed road which is as long as the unsealed section of road leading to Katoomba Airfield. This location (co-ordinates are on the image below) has a couple of roadside cuttings where to set up from, but there will be no one on this track at night so setting up on the road should be fine (:question: :lol:). Google Streetview shows this location as a ridgetop with a MAGNIFICENT horizon! though this also makes it exposed


201357


All these sites are easy to get to, no harder than the Airfield. ALL also happen to be around 1020m above sea level. So, which one?

1, Big area, sealed road access, great horizon, but right next to a town?
2, Old quarry, sealed road access, good horizon, but tricky surface?
3, Roadside, unsealed road access, magnificent horizon, but exposed?

1, 2 or 3?

Adian, Browntown oval has dew to contend with as Wavy mentions. The three above sites are all sand/gravel, so dew situation will be like the Airfield.

Alex.

[mental4astro]

Option No. 1 is out. I've just been told that many lots along this old airstrip have been sold and construction has started.

This leaves the old quarry and Victoria Falls Rd. Ivan and i will be looking at both sites over the next couple of days. Having seen the quarry site, my immediate preference is Vic Falls Rd, as I'm not too sure on how sedan friendly the quarry site is, and the road surface of Vic Falls Rd is the same as that leading to the Airfield.

Alex.

[Steffen]

I have fond memories of Mt Blackheath (that's the hang glider site, right?). Some very good seeing there.

What about the dry swamp near the airfield, is that off limits now, too?

[mental4astro]

Hi Steffen,

Mt Blackheath is the last fallback site. I'm trying to find something with a better, wider horizon.

And yes, the swamp you are talking about is within the Airfield's property, so sadly off limits too, :(

[Allan_L]

Hi Alex,
As Shane said, why not take this as an invitation to visit your northern cousins at the Mangrove Mountain Pony Club?

We have plenty of space (no pun intended).

But no amenities. NONE. Zero. Zippo. Sorry. {Insurance Issues have caused a rift here too}.

But it is a good big flat area, parking on field, good horizons, and a reasonable sky.
And not that far up the M1 (from Sydney take the (first) Peats Ridge Road exit, left onto George Downs Drive, left onto Wisemans Ferry Road, then 10.3K).

Edit
So I guess we won't be seeing you guys as
*It is only around 300m elevation
*It is a field of grass
*Dew is a frequent invader

[AG Hybrid]

Ive checked out that old Quarry. Last check it was fenced off with steel chain fencing. IF your certain the gate is open it could be good.

[mr bruess]

what about the
Ingar campground
Ingar campground is in wentworth falls.

This is a small free campground, with 8 unmarked campsites. There is one large group campsite that can handle up to 20 people and 4-5 and Tents. The location is suitable for Tents.To get there:
Turn off the Great Western Highway at Wentworth Falls at Tableland Road
Drive for 1.6km, then turn left onto Elizabeth Drive.
The Ingar fire trail starts at the end of Queen Elizabeth Drive
Follow the unsealed road for approximately 9.5km, taking the left fork near the end of the trail.

No fees or bookings are applicable for this site.

[mental4astro]

Thanks for the suggestion Kim.

Following your suggestion I looked up this campground to suss out its suitability - you never know in case you've missed something!

Alas, this site is not great for astro. It's in a valley that is prone to fog accumulation. Trees are too tall with no significant clearings offering a good amount of clear sky - the apparent clearings are hanging swamps, which are not like a grassy park, but more like overgrown with low woody shrubs and impossible to hold an asto session in.

When looking for a site that is optimal for astro, there's a set of parameters to look for:

* Set up on a ridge - fog settles in valleys, leaving ridges above the fog
* You want rocky or sandy ground, not grassy. Grass expels a lot of moisture during the night, and forms a lot of dew - this complicates things for your gear and the measures needed to keep it off optics.
* The higher you are, the less the influence of light pollution from Sydney.
* Not surrounded by agricultural land as this has the same affects as turf with dew.

Katoomba Airfield offered all of these. The huge runway area gave us an enormously low tree line. It is on top of sandstone plateau, where fog rolled off into the valley below. The runways are sandy gravel, so dew was never a problem - once we got frost, but as soon as the breeze picked up, the frost evaporated! And being at 1000m above sea level, the influence of Sydney's glow is surprisingly reduced dew to the reduced atmospheric density.

If you think about where professional observatories are set up, they all share the same geographic parameters that we are looking for! Elevated site and rocky substrate, and yes, away from light pollution.

It is not always possible to get these ducks to line up. We can only try to find sites that are as optimal as possible. And sometimes we need to take what we get and compromise. The whole exercise in finding another site away from the Airfield is just that, to find another site that is as optimal for astro as much as we can.

I am actually very grateful for your post, Kim :) . Many people who have been reading this thread may not have been aware of why we are being so particular with our site selection. Some people would have thought that a golf course or grassy park would have been just fine, not aware that setting up on a golf course makes for an impossible dew situation that could actually be just about eliminated by looking for a site that isn't grass covered. But, if a grass covered area is all that's available, then that's what needs to be dealt with - compromise.

Alex.

[Aussierob2001]

Hi guys..
Just so happens I moved up to Katoomba a year ago... Scope has been packed away since the move.
I'll keep an eye out for any updates on location..
If you get stuck....mind you not much time, I am now a faithful member of the local RFS. I'm sure the old locals would know of a few good plateaus.....
Let me know if you want me to ask.... Cheers Rob

[Wavytone]

Mt Banks or Mt Blackheath remains viable.

Mt Banks is a shorter drive - 1h 40m from the CBD and being on the north side of the Grose valley it's darker there that the airfield. There's also a useable small carpark at top of the Pierces Pass turnoff (the area down lower has too many trees).

Conversely Blackheath has basic facilities and we can light a fire if it's cold. Banks has a picnic area but it's a fair way from where you'd be observing.

To do any better the next stops are the disused airstrip above Lithgow, then Hassans Walls (drive through Lithgow to get there).

Access to the disused airstrip on Bells line of Rd is not easy in the dark. Hassans Walls is a great spot but increases the driving time to the extent it isn't realistic unless you're staying overnight.

It's also possible to find spots along the road to Jenolan caves but very very cold as these may be above 1200m

[guipago]

There's an old emergency airstrip not far from Lithgow at the top of Scenic Hill on Chiefly rd (I think) this is the road that comes off the end of Bell's Line rd that goes toward Lithgow, google & pan out at Scenic Hill & you can't miss it, great stretch of dirt amongst the brush, might be worth keeping in the back of the mind.

[Wavytone]

Yes that's the one I was referring to. Used to belong to Lithgow Scenic Airways. If you haven't been there before you should use GPS to locate it and get there in daylight because...

- it's not readily apparent from the road, in the dark, most would blow straight past without seeing it;

- the highway speed limit is 100km/h and you really must slow right down before coming off the tar to avoid putting your car in some deep potholes - the airstrip hasn't been maintained in 25 years and is quite uneven now with holes and puddles.

Be careful if you have some fool tailgating you. Best to let them pass safely well before you are close to the strip.

[mental4astro]

Heading up now. Once I've looked over bith sites I'll post the location.

Alex.

[AG Hybrid]

SO where to?

[mental4astro]

Victoria Falls Rd it is!

I'm here right now - freaking awesome!!!

Pics show east, northwest and south.

Have a fireplace spot too :)

Look at post No. 23 for a map (option 3 in post).

See you soon :)

Alex.

[mental4astro]

I'll set up a few red witches hats and some red tape to indicate the set up area.

There's a fork in the road soon on entering Victoria Falls Rd - take the right hand.

[wKkaY]

Thanks everyone for all the guidance and banter. I must say that I underestimated how hard it is to see, and also underestimated how cold it would get!

Here's my favorite photo from the night.

[osteoblast]

That's me on the ground!
Thanks Alex for finding such a good location. Good horizons all-round. I was able to get some shots of some low northern objects. Most bizarre think was being able to see the Sydney harbour bridge from over 100km away! Thanks Adrian and Ivan for views through your scopes/binoviewers.

[Wavytone]

Congratulations Alex, sounds like problem solved !

How far in did you go - all the way to the lookout ?

[GUS.K]

Thanks for all your efforts Alex, it was a great night, hopefully you got some of your sketches done.Looking forward to the next get together.

[killswitch]

Sorry i couldnt make it. I was planning to go since i was already in the area but i was too knackered after 4wd'ing

Looks like a nice open spot. Great pics WK and Mark.

[malau]

Found a pic with some of you guys. Not really a good quality coz the noise but hope you guys like it

[mental4astro]

This site has the best horizon of ANY site that I've ever been to. Totally unobstructed. East, South, West AND North!

I stayed all night with Oleg, and we saw Andromeda RISE out from the horizon. No waiting for it to clear trees. AND, it was the best view of M31 I've had in years that night. Dusty lanes could be seen that define the spiral arms, and its two satellite galaxies with huge extended halos around them. Spectacular.

Thanks to all of you who came on this leap of faith of my judgement, :). The fire was most welcome to warm up from the cold. Yes, the site is exposed, but hey, its a hill top! And to be able to see the Harbour Bridge from Mt Victoria, it is honestly unbelievable, but there it was! If you walk 50m further up the road you can also see Centre Point and the MLC buildings.

Wai Keen, that is a lovely photo of Mark & his scope!!!

Ivan, thank you so much for coming out on the site examination with me earlier that arvo. It made site selection a better one in having your thoughts & experience in the mix. Ta mate! :thumbsup:

Ivan and I looked at four sites.

1, Point Pilcher first, and the tree line is too high.

2, The old Quarry, yes the gate is now locked because of tossers dumping rubbish there. It would have been a great site, surrounded by trees yes, but it is a large site and the expanse of sky is still very good, and the trees form a reasonable wind break. However, the surface is very sandy, with nasty gouges cutting through the site from rainwater, and really requires a 4WD to sure footedly negotiate, so we discounted it for our immediate purposes. Crown Lands I contacted about it, and the regulations regarding the Quarry meant we were free to use the site too! NOTE, the gate is really just to stop cars. The "fence" on either side of it are just a few boulders so walking access to the Quarry is unhindered. So if you don't mind carrying your gear from the gate-side, the Quarry is still viable. Parking at the gate is plentiful. This site is certainly one to keep in mind if you don't mind carrying your gear, :)

3, Crown Lands suggested the third site we visited as a site also at Mt Vic and we could freely use. But this location was too sandy for sedans to negotiate, and some jerk had also dumped dozens of bags of fiberglass batts that were broken and exposed. So no need to think any more about that location.

4, The last site visited was Vic. Falls Rd. Wavy, the obs site is 3km from the Great Western Highway turnoff - same length of unsealed road as that leading to the Airfield, and in the same condition.

NOTE: This site is 1050m above sea level - it is VERY FREAKING COLD up there. If you do go to this location, dress appropriately. The cold is unforgiving! Even in summer it can get cold here too at night.

The pic below is looking east. The peak in the picture is Mt Banks, named after Sir Joseph Banks. The lumpy profile of Mt Banks can be see from Sydney on those wonderful clear mornings. I have often seen Mt Banks from Sydney's Eastern Suburbs over the past 40 years, and had often wondered of its name and if it was just one peak or three separate places. It took this trip down Victoria Falls Rd to be enlightened on the topic. It is a really curious sensation to look back on Sydney from the other side of Mt Banks! :) Something like looking back at yourself, but from the other side of the mirror. Mark's photo of the Bridge is actually a tiny, tiny section of the horizon. What can be seen of Sydney is just through a tiny gap to the right of the third and shortest 'lump' of Mt Banks and the bright yellow cliff face just off to the right of this 'lump'. Mark, thanks for posting the photo of the Bridge from the Obs site, :D.

I've also attached a map showing the location of this site's location along Victoria Falls Rd. As a note, there is a fork in the road very soon after turning into Vic. Falls road - take the track to the right.

Alex.

PS - What should we call this location? I have two options, 1, "Vic Falls Obs Site" or 2, "Bald Ridge at Vic Falls Rd". The second option is more descriptive if you are looking for the site along the tree lined road.

Any other suggestions?

[bugeater]

That photo of the bridge is pretty awesome.

[sharptrack2]

Admittedly, I chickened out because of the drive and the cold. Was just too far for a few hours, I told myself. I barely survived the evening at the Pony club. Had very cold feet. Am now more enlightened as to what I need to survive an whole night of observing.

Will certainly try to make the next one as it looks like it is extremely easy access, no muss, no fuss. Maybe even spend the weekend, weather permitting.

Do they frown on car camping?:shrug:

[Steffen]

Sadly I had to take a trip to Port Stephens, I would have rather come up to the Mountains. I can't wait to check out the new site :)

[Wavytone]

Call it Mental's Folly or Area 51 :lol:

Kevin, consider packing a hot water bottle and a thermos of hot tea with you, wrapped in something. When you're cold this will help a lot to warm up before coming home.

Also a sugar hit helps a lot - mars bar or chocolate.

For clothing...a full refrigeration suit or ski suit (pants with bib & braces and the jacket) with thermals under are pretty much essential. For your face, wear a knitted balaclava - this is something I wear paragliding in the mountains for much the same reason - it's even colder at 2000m.

[MortonH]

Sounds great, if cold!

[sharptrack2]

Thanks Wavy,

:thumbsup: Yes the full body cover is the key for sure. I brought a camp stove and plenty of tea bags, so no shortage of hot drinks, didn't help though. :(

I feel a winter clothing discount shopping trip coming up very soon! ;) Should be ready for the next opportunity. :P:D

[Shano592]

Area 51 sounds catchy!

I'm feeling tempted to make the longer trip next new moon. It would be good to meet some new people. A 3 hour drive each way might be pushing it, though.

Kevin, definitely some form of boots and very warm socks would be necessary. I had to quickly change to snow boots on Saturday, and it only got down to 7 by the time we left. Katoomba would be something else, I reckon.

[AG Hybrid]

It was a good night. Could have been better if I actually wore my thermals. The freezer suit was good but, with thermals as well it would have been highly effective.

Was also happy to test out my new setup. Seems to be working well. Probably would have been wiser and turned up when there was more light though to make the setup process less painful. Oh well. Lessons learned.
At least there practically no dew that night.

Met some new people. That was cool too.

[Wavytone]

Great, this is important. It confirms my experience that dew/frost are related to the microclimate at the site, and largely dependent on the soil in the immediate vicinity of the scope.

[AG Hybrid]

Sandstone, sand and dry shrubbery.

[Wavytone]

Yee har, perfect.