Beginner questions about first scope

[keepthebeercold]

Hello everybody,

and thank you in advance for your kind words of wisdom.

It's the same story you've heard many times before - a quickly aging suburban dad of two has decided to reignite his interest in astronomy
and finds himself struggling to pick the right starter's scope.

I'm looking for a light, easy to transport, not too much maintenance allrounder with soft budget cap around 500$. Photography is of no interest at the moment.
Main usage scenarios would probably be: 70-80% backyard stargazing (I live in Sydney, roughly halfway between Chatswood and Gordon) mostly moon and planets, DSOs would be
a bonus. 10-20% travel to close-by darker pockets like Lane Cove national park, other darkish areas between Rosevile and Turramurra.
10% companion for camping adventures.
At the moment time is the least available resource I have so easy setup/transport are highest priority for. Also I've personally ruled out Dobsonian's.

Scopes I am considering and would love your input on:

90/102mm refractors (eg http://www.opticscentral.com.au/saxon-novo-909-az3-refractor-telescope.htm, http://www.opticscentral.com.au/saxon-1025az4-refractor-telescope.htm ).
I like the idea of having 102mm, but but I've read bad things about about chromatic aberration F5 refractors and 102mm/F10 appear out of budget.
My question about refractors is: how much of a deal is F5 vs F10? In essence would you recommend a 102mm/F5 over a 90mm/F10 for a beginner?

130mm newtonians (eg http://www.opticscentral.com.au/saxon-13065eqms-reflector-telescope.html ). Aperture is king, they said.
What I'm not sure about: a/collimation - how often required, how tricky? b/ the mount: online wisdom seems to disagree on whether Alt-Az or EQ is better, but the
trend seems to be that Alt-Az is more newbie friendly.

102mm SCT (eg http://www.ozscopes.com.au/skywatcher-mak102eq2-maksutov-cassegrain-telescope.html ). Same question about the mount again. Also - how much
cooldown time should I expect for a small SCT like the one linked? More than 1hour?

So - any strong opinions or "meh, not much difference either way"?

Thanks & Cheers,
Sven

[julianh72]

Oops - never mind!

[jenchris]

Think 8 inch Dobsonian

[Atmos]

I'd go with a dob too :) Alt Az is certainly a better way to go for visual purposes. Does not require any kind of alignment, plug and play as they say.

[Rick Parrott]

Definitely Dob!
My first scope was a 6" reflector with equatorial mount; Gondwana Telescopes :thumbsup: recently crafted a beautiful Dob timber table-top mount for it and now it doesn't stay dusty in my garage (although the old mount does)!

[raymo]

With achromatic refractors it becomes harder to control CA as aperture increases, but
f ratio is kept the same; hence my 102mm f/5 has more CA than my 80mm
f/5 does, and a 120mm f/5 has more still. Its a matter of compromise
really, more aperture is undoubtedly better, and can be used satisfactorily
on objects that are not too bright, and you can reduce CA on brighter objects
by stopping the scope down to say 70 or 80mm. CA increases dramatically with magnification, so when using higher powers you can reduce CA by using for instance a 20mm + 2x barlow, rather than a 10mm, as the barlow
doubles the f ratio to 10.
F/10 refractors obviously show less CA, but it is by no means eliminated.
You have to go out to f/15 and beyond for it to become negligible.
I've run out of time, so somebody else can answer more of your questions.
raymo

[ZeroID]

6"'-8"-10" DOB, Daylight come and I wanna go home .. :rockband:

Ooops wrong song but yep, best bang for buck and ease of use is a DOB. Solid tube will stay aligned almost forever as long as you don't drop it and it isn't that hard to do or super critical for visual.

I've moved on to refractors for imaging ( although I'm about to shift back to reflectors ) and I still keep the 10" dob around for the best views.

There is always some good second hand deals on here and you'll get plenty of after sale support :thumbsup:
Probably from everybody !! :D

[keepthebeercold]

First of all thanks for the quick replies.

I am aware that "DOB" is the standard answer for first scope, but my impression (disclosure: never ran into a DOB in real life before) is that they are significantly less easy to transport (particularly the sizes > 6") than the scopes I've mentioned. And that would definitely be a deal breaker for me.
If I was sure that I only want to use it at home I'd probably get an 8" DOB, but I very dislike the idea of carrying a DOB around.

[rustigsmed]

+1 for an 8" dob.

8" dobs are easy to transport. large dobs are a different story :sadeyes:

[Atmos]

Although you may struggle getting the base of an 8" into a sedan, you could fit a 16" Lightbridge Dob into the back of a hatchback no worries.

[janoskiss]

Even if you decide on one of the scopes you listed, the EQ2 mount is not worth the bother: especially with the 130mm Newtonian, it will be too wobbly at mid-high powers. The nicest scope of the three is probably the Maksutov. But it's a small scope (I used to have one) so it won't show you much detail on planets, and it also has a very long focal length and a 1.25" focusser, so it won't do deep sky widefield very well either. (It's great for wildlife photography and birdwatching. Best with an AZ mount or sturdy camera tripod.)

For your first astro scope, as others have said 8" Dobsonian is tough to beat. The views will be vastly better than from any of the scopes you've listed. I'd recommend the GSO over Synta (i.e. Skywatcher, Saxon) because it's better accessorised, but either would be very capable. As you seem to be in Sydney I'd recommend going to Bintel and buying from them. (Bintel branded products are GSO btw.)

I'd also recommend investing in a decent pair of binoculars: 8x40, 10x50 (depending on how steady you can hold them) or if you're young with good eyesight 7x50.

If you want more (trans)portability still then get one of the truss models (collapsible tube): http://astropetes.com.au/telescopes/dob_8_Collapsible.html --- I disagree with Atmos on the 16" LB: a solid tube 8" is a lot more portable/transportable. But just go to a scope shop and check them out.

[Atmos]

Oh don't get me wrong, I by no means meant that a 16" is transport friendly! Just getting the point across that even a large dob can be transported into a small vehicle :)

+1 for the 8". 16" are wonderful to use but not good as a first scope, a LOT more effort to set up.

[Bombardon]

I regularly move a 10" F5 dob in an IX35 SUV. Some friends even rebuild their rocker boxes making them more back friendly ;). I have timed this. My 10" is a 4 minute set-up and can reach deep sky and planets. Allow $$ for good eyepieces. Avoid equatorial time wasting:)

[keepthebeercold]

Thanks again for the detailed opinions.

Look, you guys make me feel really bad. I can hear the clear unanimous vote for the DOB 8". And at the same time I absolutely know a DOB is not going to be my first scopes.
I fully understand that they give the best bang for buck. but I look at them (I've watched about half a dozen videos on youtube 6"-10") and I know it's too bulky for me - at least at the moment.

I'm really looking for a grab and go, not much more than backpack sized solution.

:shrug:

[Occulta]

Sven

Get yourselves to the Macquarie University Astronomy open nite on Saturday May 14 to look at and through many telescopes of all sorts. Starts at 18:30 and finishes at 22:00 or there abouts. Building E7B and the rear carpark for telescope viewing.
Details can be found here (http://tinyurl.com/zdyr6j9)

I will be there with my 10".

Well worth a visit :thumbsup:

Chris

[barx1963]

Sven
Go to a star party or observing night and have a look at what the guys doing visual observing are using. The mix is usually 80% dobs of various sizes, 10-15% SCTs and the remainder a mix of other things.
There is a reason why dobs are preferred as a visual instrument, and you gave the one of the reasons - "aperture is king". Dobs simply give the best bang for the $$$. On top of that they are versatile, great on DSOs, good on planets. They are easy to use, easy to setup, transportable, robust.

My first scope was a 130mm newt on an EQ mount. My next was an 8" dob. The night I first used my dob i had seen more objects within an hour than I saw in 18 months with the 130mm!! You see more, they are easy to use, and when it comes to portability, I definitely preferred the dob to the 130mm.

I used to transport my 12" easily in my little Astra no issues. And the great thing about a dob (especially the smaller ones) if you want an object and it is behind a tree, you just take the tube off. move the mount, put the tube back and away you you go. If using an EQ or Go To mount, you have to redo polar aligning or star aligning ( can be a real PITA at 1am)

Anyway, it is your choice to eliminate dobs without having seen one, but I will bet New York against a brick that if you go any of the scopes you mention, in 6 months you will be either:
-offering that scope for sale
-asking for advice on which dob to buy!!:D

Cheers

Malcolm

[janoskiss]

Then I'd recommend either an 80mm ED refractor (second hand will be in line with the cost of scopes in OP; there is at least one on IceTrade) or the 127mm Skywatcher/Saxon Maksutov and an AZ mount (no half capable EQ mount is going to be anything close to backpackable - unless you mean large travel-the-world tourist backpack; it'd also cost you a bit).

When it comes to refractors it's worth getting a smaller ED ("semi-apo") type over a larger achro.

[keepthebeercold]

I think I'm actually getting more and more confused, oh my.

Just in case I rethink on the DOBs - would a 6" be considered fine or not big enough?

[janoskiss]

The 6" Dob is a nice scope, nothing really wrong with it. The focusser is a bit of a cheapie compared with 8" models and up (ditto finder). But it's a great all rounder; I was impressed with its performance on planets at a star party. But the only reason to get it over the 8" is cost. It's essentially the same size as the 8", except for the diameter of the tube (and mirror of course). And it's a little bit lighter. But otherwise it's no more portable than the 8".

PS. I'm referring to the 6" f/8 Dob and not the f/5 table top model. The table top model would be okay if you want something ultra-portable.

[Malcolm]

Get an 8" or 10" collapsible DOB. You wont be sorry. Have a look here: http://www.andrewscom.com.au/optical-telescopes

[barx1963]

Confusion is a normal state while trying to work out astro gear. BTW, I was not trying to be rude with my other post ( I just re read it and it may come across that way!!) I was trying to strongly emphasis my own personal knowledge and experience.

The best way to alleviate the confusion is to take a step back and realise that you do not have to make a decision straight away. the skys will still be there in a month or so The single best piece of advice I have heard given to people buying their first scope (apart from not buying at at an Aust Geographic store!!) is get yourself along to star party or club observing night. The Astronomical Society of NSW is hosting the South pacific Party shortly (details here: http://www.asnsw.com/node/712 ) and from experience here in Vic, you will learn more at these gatherings in a hour or so of wandering around, looking at and through scopes and asking questions than in months researching and looking at videos (or posting on IIS)

If that is not possible, keep an eye out for other gatherings or see if there are any societies you can join.

It will be money well spent!!

Malcolm

[janoskiss]

Perhaps this:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=145232
on an AZ mount (the Vixen Porta it's pictured with would be real nice; GSO have something similar, but the less expensive AZ3 would be fine too). And it's the sort of scope you'll keep for its portability and wide field of view even after you get hungry for more aperture and buy a big Dob, Newt, Cass etc.

PS. Completely agree with Malcolm about going to star party or observing night at a local club. You'll learn more about scopes in one night than in weeks spent researching and conversing online.

[Kiki]

Hi Everyone,

I have only just joined this group so please excuse my ignorance and limited knowledge. I am trying to narrow my options down to purchasing equipment. A colleague of mine has strongly recommended the Goto Telescopes as a newbie. What have other people's experiences been with them?

Thanks a lot,
Kiki

[janoskiss]

There are very good reasons to recommend against a Goto scope for a beginner. With a goto scope you might never learn to really look at the sky and explore. But it totally depends on what you want to get out of astronomy. This is where going to a star party or public observing night at a large astro club/society is extremely valuable and cannot be replaced with other people's opinions you read online.

FWIW I would say: get a manually operated push-to scope, a planisphere, basic star/deep-sky atlas, red torch and a pair of binoculars. It's a lot more fun doing it that way: much more of an adventure. But that's just the way I feel about it. And if you get lost and cannot find something, get on the forums and ask.

Goto has its place, and it's certainly something you might like to consider later on especially once you're ready to upgrade to a larger scope. But initially it can suck all the life out of the experience. Kind of like sightseeing in a foreign city by taxi with blacked out windows and only ever stopping and getting out to take a brief look at the major tourist attractions. And also spending most of your travel money on taxi fares: with a small to medium sized goto scope, most of the money goes into the goto (computer, electronics, motors ...) instead of the optics, which is what you'd really need to make you go :eyepop: instead of :zzz2:

JMO. Everyone's needs are different. You need to sus things out for yourself. ;)

PS @Kiki Seeing you're in Brisbane, you should go along to one of Astro Pete's weekly viewing nights or better yet one of the monthly star parties. I heard a lot of good things about this guy. See http://astropetes.com.au/

[rustigsmed]

my first scope was a 6" newt on an equatorial mount. I used that for visual for years and years.

now with experience I will always recommend an 8" dob over anything remotely similar. that extra aperture somehow goes over a threshold of visual viewing that makes it all sing. yes a 6" is ok and will keep you happy for a bit but 8" will go the distance. when you stand next to them there really isn't much difference.

[keepthebeercold]

Okay, okay - I give up, you win. I am going to put my thinking hat back on, but I am now seriously considering an 8" Dob.

Thanks for all your input. much appreciated.

[Nab]

An 8" isn't that hard to move either complete as I do all around my house, or in tube/base sections.
Cheers
Darren.

[Atmos]

And remember that if you go down the path of an 8" dob, you can get them as either go-to or not. I personally would suggest getting go-to from the outset with a dob. It saves the expense of upgrading later if you want PLUS you are not locked into using it anyway. Having a go to system does not mean that it has to be used.

What Steve has said is very good advise, take it from someone that started with go to and now, years later, only somewhat knows the skies :) I do not by any means regret never having been through the manual phase, but there is something to be said for learning the skies.

I personally believe that goto is fantastic when you have kids around, they are not as patient as adults when it comes to either finding an object or waiting for you to find it :P

[The Mekon]

Don't give up yet Sven. I support the idea of a small refractor as a first purchase. You will be surprised what you can see with one of these once you start trying. For example there is a great 80ED on the classifieds now below your $500 range. Fitted on an altazimuth mount - or even a sturdy photo tripod it will be extremely portable, no need for collimation each time you transport it and give excellent views of the moon planets, double stars and the brighter DSOs. Even faint DSOs can be detected with such a small scope.
You will need good eyepieces but this also holds for the dobs. My brother-in law has an 8" dob and the performance was pretty ordinary with the standard 10mm and 25mm eyepieces. Fitted with a 13 Nagler and a whole new telescope revealed itself.

[Kunama]

I think the best advice here so far has been about attending a StarParty/Astro meet/DarkSky Night, anywhere where one is likely to be able to try out a few different designs and sizes of scopes.

Get there early enough to watch the various scopes being set up. Talk to the people and ask questions then ask to view some of the same targets with different scopes.

Having said all that, I think an 8" Dob with encoders and a basic Dsc is a great place to start. An 80mm makes a fine scope but on its own it can be rather limiting.

[keepthebeercold]

Update: Impossible amounts of ummm-ing and aaaaah-ing later I've pulled the trigger on an 8" GSO DOB from Bintel.

Expect some After Action Reports in a little while.

And thanks everyone again for your input.