Eureka flag - Australian Flag?

[Merlin66]

I know there are mixed reactions to the Eureka Flag, and many unions have "taken it" for their own, but the history and significance of the original should not be overlooked.
With the recent debacle over the flag in NZ, it's pretty obvious that the current Aus/NZ designs are still acceptable to the majority.
However, I'd like to suggest a variant - just replace the Union jack on the current Ozzie flag with the Eureka flag.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_Flag
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_flag_debate
(Interesting comment: The organisation has not consistently supported one design but is opposed to the Eureka Flag (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_Flag) - no reason given???)

[xelasnave]

Why change it?
I dont understand the need?
I dont care really but why bother.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Add it in somehow after all the Union Jack, upon my understanding, was a combination of earlier flags seeking to reflect the history.
Layer upon layer of flags.

Alex

[AussieTrooper]

No need to change it. Those who think our flag is too similar to the NZ flag may want to have a look at the historical reason that it is that way.

[csb]

The Eureka flag is too associated with unions and their thuggery. As for the Australian flag, even as a child I thought our flag was boring.

I do like the Aboriginal flag and I think it would be great as the Australian flag (some may suggest a minor change due to the black representing Aborigines). This flag would go a long way to recognising the origins of Australia. The current flag only recognises European history.

[Nikolas]

Just replace the union jack with the Aboriginal flag in the corner
End of story

[Tandum]

Once Scotland finally passes a vote for independence and St Andrews flag is removed from the Union Jack, the British flag will have to be replaced with combo of St Patrick and St George so a red X and cross on a white flag.

Won't that change ours :)

[csb]

Thanks Nik, you just made me realise that it is the square insert in the Australian flag that I don't like, visually. I've wondered for years what it is about our flag that I don't like.

A blue flag with the Southern Cross would look great. However, the Aboriginal flag seems more appropriate.

[Renato1]

The European History that established this country as it is today, and which passed on nearly all the institutions to it that led to the wealthy and stable democracy that it also is today.

Yes, it would be very troubling and backward looking to acknowledge and remember that.
Regards,
Renato

[csb]

No need for such a stroppy reply, Renato. I did say "only" recognises European history.

It is currently acknowledged that the original inhabitants of Australia have claims and we should be reconciling so we can live in harmony.

Two flags do not represent one country.

[astroron]

Do you know what country /state this flag belongs too:question:

[torana68]

Hawaii...

[strongmanmike]

One mans thuggery is another mans freedom!...been a constant battle for time and memorial....

[strongmanmike]

Now that I agree with :)

Mike

[csb]

Some unions are more about control and power than freedom/workers' rights. Hence, we have a royal commission into the conduct of certain unions.

That article in Wikipedia that you referenced Ken, uses "anti-establishment" and "non-conformist" in relation to the Eureka flag. I would think no government would be accepting of such a flag.

[skysurfer]

Indeed, it is a shame that the new NZ flag with the fern leaf and Crux is not accepted by referendum. Moreover the current NZ flag is very similar to the AU flag, only the Crux stars are red.

In 1988 there was already a consideration of a green-yellow AU flag with Crux and the kangaroo (?) in it.

The idea about an aboriginal symbol and Crux would be great. The Union Jack is from the colonial era.

South Africa did it better: they replaced the orange-white-blue flag with the small NL and UK flags in the white bar by a full colored flag representing the color of the ZA people : red-white-blue, black-green-yellow. I like that flag. The main reason was probably to say the apartheid era goodbye.

Not only the flag, but also geographical names are being 'aboriginalized' e.g. Uluru, Kata Tjuta, and Arnhem land etc, just like South Africa 'Africanized' names e.g. Nylstroom => Modimolle, Pietersburg => Polokwane, etc. There are even (upcoming ?) African names for big cities: Pretoria => Tshwane, Johannesburg => Egoli.
I bet that in 2050 New Zealand will be called 'Aotearoa' with its largest city 'Tāmaki Makaurau' instead of Auckland, and e.g. Alice Springs, Darwin will have new aboriginal names and later maybe even Sydney and Melbourne.

[strongmanmike]

Rubbish (sorry), the vaaaaast majority of unions are totally about workers rights and to suggest otherwise is bias BS. The current royal commission is a total political farce, 100%...shame really, because the minority of Unions spoiling the broth could have easily been tamed by other means. Now we are expected to have an election about it..seriously??? :rofl: friggin BS to the max!

Mike

[Nikolas]

The Eureka flag was a rebel flag for miner's rights in Ballarat, nothing more nothing less. It pales in comparison to the confederate flag which is also a rebel flag.
Anyone else using that flag is doing so wrongly as what they believe it stands for is not in line with what they stand for in reality.

[Kunama]

Seriously? We have homeless starving in the streets, children neglected, domestic violence, serious health issues like diabetes, obesity among others....
And people feel it important to change the flag? Might be time to consider our priorities....

The flag is not meant to be changed to reflect the current situation in a country, like it or not we should leave it alone, many fought and died under this flag so that we would have the freedoms we enjoy. Perhaps we should show some respect to the flag and those men and women who fought under it, especially as ANZAC day is just around the corner.

As usual, your views may vary.

[csb]

So we agree, Mike, I said some unions.

I am a member of the ANMF - a union that sincerely is for workers' rights and also holds up the rights of the general public.

At the opposite end is the CFMEU. Fined a million dollars for their thuggery.

[rustigsmed]

ummm no, replacing the union jack with another flag would look terrible. if you do it, you do it like the South africans did it - design something new from scratch (and looks good!). the Aboriginal flag for the australian nation doesn't work as it is for the the Aboriginal people as an ethnic and cultural group only. my fear is that when it changes it looks cheap and terrible, kudos for the kiwis voting down sh!t options IMO. Id also prefer the money spent on something like this go into health care or helping remote communities. what a waste of money.

[strongmanmike]

A flag is not for those that fought and died "under it" ..??? that's plain crazy, rather it is to stand for a nation and what it wishes to see itself as and what it wishes to represent. It stands that 50,000 years ago Indonesians walked onto what is now Australia and became Indigenous Australians...

[Kunama]

Given that a large part of Australia is now owned by Chinese interests, I guess the time will come when a red flag with five stars will represent the majority of Australians.....

Should we change the flag each time the nation's demographic alters? Should we include a little bit of patchwork for each minority group, or should we accept that the nations history includes that which the Union Jack represents as well that which the Southern Cross signifies, being all Australians whether they be of aboriginal heritage or perhaps the children of Italian migrants who choose to call Australia home.

What have we done to earn the right to change the flag that others fought for?

[strongmanmike]

Sorry Matt but I just don't agree that the flag has anything at all to do with who fought any war while it was our flag design..? It should stand for what we are not what we were :)

Mike

[PCH]

We can see the tone of this thread shifting.

We would do well to remember that our opinions are just that - opinions, not facts and other people are entitled to theirs whatever they may be.

For my two bobs worth, does it matter that the aboriginals were here first? Do you hear the poms bleating about the various invasions that formed their heritage? I don't think so. Germanics, Vikings, French - they all came and stayed, and created a present population that rejoices in it's mixed beginnings. And there's not a hint of any of those groups in the UK flag!

Just my 2c. No offence intended.

[blink138]

bravo paul!
and btw jft96&ynwa, (i am sure you understand)
pat

[Larryp]

Well said, Paul

[AndrewJ]

At least the unions were charged with an "honest days" thuggery.
Aren't "professional associations" that actively protect their members from prosecution or revue, and run "closed shops"
also "unions" in the context of this argument???
I know which group gets away with more theft, bribery etc.
Its just harder to prosecute the white collar side of things.

Andrew
I want a commission into the lot of them.

Re the flag, its what we grew up under
I didn't change/discard my parents just because i grew up
so why change the flag. If we change it now for some
selfish reason, when do we change it next????

[Nikolas]

Well said Paul

[csb]

That is the difference between the two situations. The aborigines do not rejoice in what we have. They were denied involvement in the new country and were pushed aside.

We can all see the problems that Aboriginals have. Poverty, health, serious domestic issues, little education, relience on gov. benefits plus their attitude to white Australia, causing other Australians to not want to live next door to Aborigines - they are not accepted in their own country.

So I wouldn't think they enjoy the symbolisms of the current flag.

[Merlin66]

Aboriginal populations all round the world have similar issues....
Many want to maintain their "traditional" beliefs and culture but also want to be included in the current economic and social/ medical benefits available to the developed nations.....
Not an easy problem and certainly not an easy solution.

[csb]

I posted that to demonstrate why I think the Aboriginal flag with sone adaption would be suitable for Australia.

[PCH]

I get what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure that when the Romans and Normans and Vikings and so claimed Britain, they also pushed aside the local population in ways far more horrid than did the colonial settlers with the aboriginals here. But I do take the points you raise about living next door etc.

On a different note, I think instead of 'sorry', we should have a national 'thank you' movement where we give thanks that it was the Brits that rocked up here. Ok it may not have been perfect, may not still be perfect, but the Anglophile countries are among the best and most civilised places to live today. And if it had been the Japs or Chinese that had turned up instead, the locals would possibly have been treated way more harshly - maybe even have been on the menu!

Just a thought.

[strongmanmike]

Yeah sorry Craig, you indeed did say some granted :thumbsup: it's just that it is always these few that get focused on and all the good ones that make such a difference for so many, even those that aren't members of any union! :rolleyes: annoys me a tad :)

Mike

[csb]

Oh yes, I'm certainly glad it was the British who started settlement here. If it was another nation I may have been born in Ireland/England or Germany, as per my ancestry. I prefer Australia.

[torana68]

could have been Dutch as they were here before Cpt. COOK

[xelasnave]

Maybe a black flag with nice round stars?
Alex

[Regulus]

It's unfortunate that the Eureka flag has the associations that it does. It would be a nice design, IS a nice design, for an Australian flag, but it's use in a 'revolution' will thwart any plans to see it raised above Parliament House. Any committee formed to decide and select a set of contenders will not include this in the set.
Unfortunate really.

[Matt Wastell]

Let's just remove the Union Jack & replace it with 51 white stars on a blue background :)

[wushufinger]

This.

[KenGee]

Beat me to it Mike :thumbsup:

Always find it funny people bashing unions, but love their living wage, 38 hour week,sick leave, long services leave, parental leave, unfair dismissal, service pay, redundancy pay... eh Unions who needs them......:question:

[KenGee]

Kunama , you do understand that the national anthem was "god save the Queen" during WW 1 & 2... so by your logic it was wrong to change it to Advance Australia fair.

[Kunama]

Once you accept that these changes are ok, will you also accept that the next generation may change it to reflect what they think is appropriate and forget about any historical significance, a slippery slope comes to mind.....

[Merlin66]

Hmmm
The original thought process was that only Australia and New Zealand, of all the original British Commonwealth nations retain the Union Jack on their flag. All the others, India, Canada, South Africa etc. have adopted a unique flag which they feel represents their independent country to the world.
I think our time has come.

[csb]

I fully agree, I'd like to have a different flag.



Please give rational responses. Clearly there's been no union bashing in this thread. SOME unions act illegally and use thuggish and bully tactics.

I am a union member as previously stated - if my union was shown and proven to have acted similar to the CFMEU, I would quit and find another union.

[OICURMT]

:whistle:

[bugeater]

The "people died under it" argument holds even less water when you consider that we have more than one flag and the one many people identified with was the red ensign, not the blue ensign we commonly see today.

[csb]

Well, they certainly didn't die fighting over the flag design. They died for who & what the Australian flag represents. Change the design and it stull represents Australia.

[astroron]

I would say most people are quite happy with the flag we have.
It is only when people start rattling the can and beating the drum
that any one even thinks about it.
NZ just proved that the empty cans makes the loudest noise, even their prime minister couldn't get the change the flag vote across the line, and he was the instigator of the flag change.
Leave the flag alone, I am proud of it, in fact I have it flying above my observatory.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[AstralTraveller]

The English bloke who 'discovered' the east coast of what is now Australia was Lieutenant James Cook. For his second great voyage he was promoted to Commander and it was not until his third (and final) voyage that he was promoted to 'Post-Captain'. Generations of schoolchildren have been mislead because of the appeal of an alliteration on the letter 'C'.

[Kunama]

:thumbsup: Nice one Ron

[astroron]

Hawaii is a state of the United States of America, and it still retains the "Union Jack" as part of it's flag.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[astroron]

It really doesn't make any difference as to what rank he was,that is unless you are a bloke who was on who wants to be a millionaire and got the answer wrong.:sadeyes:
It cost him a lot of money if I remember correctly.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[astroron]

Wrong!
God save the King.;)
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Kunama]

I like it !!!

[Camelopardalis]

As a pommie, I've found this pretty interesting reading :thumbsup:

One observation in particular that strikes me is that some folk feel that there's an Australian identity that is struggling to step out from behind the 'colonial' flag.

But here's the thing...there is no empire. The colonial days are long gone. Many countries are allies, as Australia/NZ are with the UK and USA.

If you ask people on the street in the UK about Australia, what comes to mind is this awesome sun-drenched land, full of spirit and adventure. There's no sense colonialism. We speak (more or less!) the same language and there's some not insignificant common heritage, and generally a sense of friendliness.

All the Australians I ever met before moving here were all larger than life, proud Australians full of the spirit of Australia. Believe me, the Australian identity as perceived from abroad is not a slave to any flag!

It's not for me to say either way, but I could probably come up with some pretty interesting suggestions :D in particular, I like the crest of the Australian government, but I'm sure that'd go down like a lead balloon :P

[AstralTraveller]

The rank of James Cook is one of those misconceptions that crops up often enough to annoy someone who cares for facts. A bigger issue is when people are willing to say 'Captain Cook' even once they know that to be false. What surety could such a person offer for the veracity of any of their subsequent statements?


BTW Is there really a show about people who want to make hats??

[Kunama]

Perhaps they are referencing the role rather than the rank,

eg. The captain of the ex collier, His Majesty's Bark Endeavour, was Lieutenant J Cook ..........

Pedantic semantics aside, a great mariner ...

[75BC]

I'm not sure how that would sit with the diggers that died in Afganistan who wore our flag on their left shoulder, and who's coffins were draped in it upon their return.
I know people who have fought for this country and our flag is important to them.




:thumbsup: Totally agree. Love it. Leave it. Don't turn it into a fashion statement.

[graham.hobart]

I've got this flag flying in my obs!!:lol:https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sV7x6UqxV5k/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAALIc/mNp09x04joQ/s0-c-k-no-ns/photo.jpg (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&source=imgres&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiSm5C5wqvMAhWmJaYKHcSrB4 EQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fplus.google.com%2F u%2F0%2F%2BLCFCOfficial&psig=AFQjCNG86BdJsgdon0mA4QcCUfnCIE VdJw&ust=1461733146473466)

[astroron]

It seems you are easily annoyed. :(
In the British military, an officer can keep his rank after he leaves the service as long as he puts the suffix (retired) but can use the title in everyday use.
James Cook was a a Captain when he died and is given that rank to this very day.
As has been said here he was a Lieutenant when he was on his first voyage of discovery.
When an officer dies in service, he keeps the rank he had at the time
The only time the rank is disputed was when he was on the voyage that he is credited to have discovered Australia.
BTW we are both wrong as there is no O in Milliner :P

Cheers:thumbsup:

[AstralTraveller]

It's true that someone in command of a RN vessel is addressed as 'captain' by the ship's crew regardless of rank but that isn't the misconception I have heard propagated most of my life. I was lucky enough to have a primary school teacher who taught facts rather than propaganda, so the Captain Cook fallacy has grated for 50 years. Thanks to her I have also long known that Australia was invaded, not settled, that Terra Nullius was a myth, and why such a fuss is made about the First Fleet while there is near total silence about the Second Fleet. (Thank you Mrs Boyd, at the time I didn't realise what a gem you were.)

Certainly a great mariner and so probably seen by some as a pedant. After all, to be that successful he would have had to have paid great attention to detail. ;)

[AstralTraveller]

Easily?? I could argue that, considering that I have remained silent about some of the outrages posted here, I am really quite tolerant.


I know. But millioner is closer to milliner than to millionaire. And you'd have to be as mad as a hatter to go on such a show.

[Merlin66]

Guys/ gals,
Can we politely return to the key issue of this post.
The current Australian flag has served us well.
Look forward, not backwards................

[Kunama]

How do you think the vast local population of Macropus rufus and Macropus giganteus felt when their land was invaded by the indonesians 50K years ago.
We're all invaders of this land, us and the aboriginal peoples, so let us just accept that, all get along and enjoy the beautiful night sky over Terra Australis.

and to return to Ken's topic, if the flag was to be changed (not my preferred course of action) it should be changed to something that does not identify any particular part of the population or any event.
References to the aboriginal flag, Union Jack, any minority groups, etc are things that seem to create disharmony and should be avoided.

To be fair to all Australians, it should depict something that is common to all and available to all Australians.

So I vote for a deep blue flag portraying the stars of the Southern Cross as well as the Pointers in gold.

(can you tell that I have the flu and nothing much to do with my time today?)

[bugeater]

I get the impression that some people conflate Australia as a "country" or society with a symbol - i.e. the flag. To be proud of a flag to me seems odd, but being proud of your country seems quite reasonable. Changing a flag won't change the country you are proud of.

And on the comments around "thugs" being associated with the Eureka flag - so who is often associated with our actual flag? The ugly side of Australian nationalism certainly seems to claim it as their banner.

[csb]

It certainly annoys me when people direct non-factual emotive statements at people on the other side of the debate. These people are saying those with a different opinion aren't worth listening to. When actually those types of statements are worthless in a mature debate.

The flag debate is often a topic of interest. I think the monarchy will finish after Queen Elizabeth and then the flag debate will really be hot.

[astroron]

No one ever remembers who came second:sadeyes:,maybe an exception can be made for Buzz Aldrin as his accomplishment has been well publicized for the last 47 years.;)

Cheers:thumbsup:

[astroron]

Maybe you missed your calling by not going on that show, :P
you could have made some money.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[astroron]

Maybe so, so till then every now and again the cans will be rattled and the drums will be beaten by people who want this to happen, which in my estimation is by the minority.
And all this will go round again.
BTW Did you see anyone in the ANZAC day marches looking grumpy for marching under that flag you want changed so much:question:
I didn't:)
Cheers:thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

How much would it cost to change the flag? It would be a very expensive fashion statement.
The flag maker would make a killing.
Mmmm follow the money.... who got people thinking about a flag change in the first place.

I would rather the money go to cancer research is that being too sensible.

Alex

[astroron]

Way to go Alex:thumbsup:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[JB80]

I like to think that one day we will eventually become a republic and until that day I don't see much point in changing the flag although I can see why some would want a more inclusive flag. Actually why even wait for that which may never happen anyway, probably more chance of a flag change than a republic unfortunately.

The Eureka flag unfortunately I can't see making it's way to any design but I would happily go along with something as long as it contained the southern cross and some elements from the Aboriginal flag or culture.

[csb]

A 2016 survey featured in an ABC news report:

"in a survey of 8,140 people conducted by Western Sydney University . . . of the respondents, 64 per cent said they believed the Australian flag should change, while 36 per cent said it should remain the same."

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-26/alternative-australian-flags-ranked-by-university-survey/7113992

Surveys are somewhat subjective but anyway this shows that many do want change.

An appropriate time to change will be when we become a republic. An appropriate time to become a republic is when there is a change of monarch - if it does continue after the Queen. I suppose this depends on how well Prince William is groomed for the position - I can't think anyone else would be acceptable.

P.S. I've seen flag designs that include a boomerang - looks to corny for my liking.

[Merlin66]

Becoming a Republic is not a mandatory decision to consider a change to our flag.

[csb]

I agree. However, it would be an apt time and advantageous for promotion of a flag change.

[torana68]

I'm ex Navy, you refer to an Officer at his last rank...... anything else is somewhat insulting. So as far as I'm concerned its Capt. Cook. ( reading back I'm late the point was made earlier :) )

[el_draco]

Seems we had this debate and the idea got dumped along with the equally dopey republic idea which people keep banging on about. Now, the Kiwi's have done the same. Why do we have to trash our history and why cant people accept that our flag is our flag, full stop?

The day I swear allegiance to or salute anything other than the current flag will be the same the day Pluto has a heat wave and that's about as likely as me voting for an Australian "President"... talk about severe disturbance in "The Force" :doh:

[el_draco]

bravo!!!

[el_draco]

YES, it was wrong. Very few people even know the words of the current joke. Maybe we should take note of that fact.

[el_draco]

Western Sydney is hardly representative of Australia and considering the monarchy has been around for a hell of a long time, I see little likelihood or reason whatsoever for it to end with the Queen. It would be a dismal day in the world for sure.

[clive milne]

Matt... do you honestly believe that the graphic design of any single flag,
in all of human history has warranted armed conflict between nations?
Do you imagine any single person lying on their gurney being air-vacced from some god forsaken jungle, thought... damn.. I may have lost my legs, but heck..
No one messes with that flag design.
It was worth it, and I would do it again?

[csb]

Exactly right, Clive. Some/many of those people may even have hoped for a changed flag design or even been anti-monarchy.

[xelasnave]

OK. I for one am convinced.
Put it to a vote.

Seek designs in a world wide competition.
Set up various committees.
The cream that will flow for fat cats will make it worthwhile.

Cut funding to scientific research to pay for it all.

And folk did not die for the flag they died under it.

Alex