Help: Bought a dud Skywatcher Esprit 80....

[HenryNZ]

Hi

I need some advice from someone who knows consumer laws please...

I live in New Zealand and recently I have bought a Skywatcher Esprit 80 from one of the Australian authorised retailers while I was in Australia to make use of the tourist refund scheme. However, on my first use I found the Esprit to be defective when used photographically. The defect is one that has been documented previously on other internet sites and has something to do with collimation. I promptly contacted the Australian retailer basically within 3 days of the purchase but he/she redirected me to Tasco who supposedly handle all warranty claims related to Skywatcher products. It so happened that my brother was visiting home (NZ) at that time so I asked him to bring the telescope back to Tasco at Sydney (the retailer is not in Sydney). It has been more than 10 days now and I have not heard anything back.

I am not familiar with consumer law in Aus but in NZ I would have long returned the telescope for a refund. But this split model of sale (by the retailer) and warranty (by the distributor) just make the whole thing so complicated.

I am really frustrated as I am now $2000 short without a telescope. I am having doubts whether Tasco can actually fix the telescope properly and how long it will take them to fix it.

Any advice how I should proceed? I just want to arm myself with more knowledge of the rules and regulations before I contact Tasco again.

(I have quite deliberately not mention the name of the retailer or the specific of the fault on a public forum as this matter is still in dispute but would be happy to share it in PM)

Many thanks

Henry

[Zincberg]

Australian retail law deems that a faulty item may be returned to the place of purchase for assessment. If the place of purchase finds manufacturing fault in the product, then it may be repaired or replaced or a refund can be issued. Note that it is at the retailers discretion whether or not a refund gets issued, not the consumers.

Its quite normal for you to have to take/send a product back to the importer/ manufacturer here. After all, they are the ones likely to need to repair or replace your item. Often if you take it back to the place of purchase, they will need to charge you freight back to the manufacturer anyways... so better off you doing it.


Just call Tasco, its perfectly reasonable that you would ring and check on the progress of your item. However, I have noted that there is an advertisement on the right hand side of the page, from tasco...requiring a telescope technician, so maybe thats why yours is taking a little while :eyepop:

[HenryNZ]

Thanks for that Andrew. I guess I am a bit spoiled in NZ as refund is more readily given out, especially for essentially new item with a demonstrable fault. I guess I never expected problem in the first place and shame on me for not doing my research on after sale properly.

If I reside in Aus I actually don't mind going back and forth a bit to get it fixed but every time I have to send it back to Aus it will cost me an arm and a leg and that's why I am keen for a clean break with a refund.

[casstony]

My interpretation is that the law would deem this a major failure of the product, therefore the consumer has the right to repair or refund from the retailer (consumers choice). With a minor failure it's the suppliers choice.
http://consumerlaw.gov.au/files/2015/09/consumer_guarantees_guide.pdf

[iborg]

I suggest you look over this website from the ACCC

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/repair-replace-refund

You should find the information you need here.

You may also want to refer the seller to this site. Many don't actually understand their responsibilities.

Good luck

Philip

[rally]

Henry,

Why on earth you havent contacted the distributor directly ? . . . before posting all of this is beyond me.

10 days since you gave your brother your scope to take back to Oz to be sent to Tasco, to be assessed and repaired and then returned - doesnt seem long to me.
For all we know a new one is in the post, or its being fixed or repaired.

Call the distributor, speak to them first, get the facts and then complain if in fact there is a problem.
Tasco is a large reputable firm and probably sell more telescopes in Australia than everyone else put together - I am quite sure they will be ethical to deal with.

Rally

[HenryNZ]

I am not complaining. I am merely trying to get to know my rights before I contact them again. I think I have been very careful in my initial post not to use any inflammatory language.

[doppler]

I am sure that if an item is defective out of the box it is a defective product and not a waranty issue and should be refunded or replaced with a new one. Waranty only applies when a fault develops after a period of use. I have taken many things back for a replacement that didn't work properly from new. There is usually a period of a week or two after purchase to do this. Check the companys web site they should have a terms and conditions page to explain their returns policy. Sometimes you need to make a bit of a rant to be taken notice of. The company will always take the easy way for themselves. If they give you a replacement then they have to deal with the dud and are short one saleable item themselves.
Good luck

[HenryNZ]

Rick: what you described is very similar to my experience with other purchases in NZ. When I buy items from big outlet like JB hifi, jaycar or the now defunc Dick Smith I can usually get refund right away for defective items or exchange for one that works. having to wait one day to get it fixed is one day too long in my opinion but like I say I do not know the rules and regulations in Aus and I do not want to prejudge a company using my local set of rules without checking here first.

[doppler]

If it was a minor problem the shop should be able to sort it out without having to send it away. Here's an interesting fact sheet.

https://www.moneysmart.gov.au/media/347756/kit-acl-factsheet-shopping-rights.pdf

[bugeater]

:rofl:are you serious?
If a retailer ever tried to charge me freight to the manufacturer to get a faulty product repaired.....:eyepop::mad2:
I'd be refusing and then pointing out their responsibilities under the law.

The retailer is responsible for ensuring the product is of acceptable quality. Not the manufacturer. The manufacturer will probably get involved, since, yes they are qualified to repair the item, but the onus isn't on you to deal with them.

[xelasnave]

You seem to say you knew these scopes may have the problem may I ask did you find out before or after purchase.

It may be a blessing if it comes back with the problem really fixed.

Keep calm and talk to the people be polite and I suspect it will all work out.

Alex

[HenryNZ]

The problem was reported previously in 2014 but is understood to have been rectified. There was no reason to believe that this problem can still crop up. However I am happy to wait for a few more days to see what happens. Sounds like Tasco has good reputation and I am prepared to give them the chance to rectify the problem.

[Merlin66]

Henry,
Did your brother get an RMA authority # from TASCO?
Makes it easier to track and discuss.

[codemonkey]

Legally speaking a retailer cannot force you to go direct to the distributor to resolve this issue, but practically speaking you may well be better off doing it (faster turn around).

Definitely call Tasco. I tried to contact them via email and it was weeks and only when I sent hostile follow-up emails that they actually got back to me.

Good luck.

[HenryNZ]

I did get a RMA number. To be fair to Tasco they did issue the RMA number pretty quickly when I rang. I guess I am just frustrated that I have to go through this hassle with a new telescope. If a problem arises after some use I would be more accepting of the hassle that I have to go through. But for a new purchase I would have expected either an exchange or a refund once the telescope is returned, rather than having to wait for an assessment, wait for repair, and still take the risk that the repair may not be satisfactory.

But like I said, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and make contact with them in a few more days time (when they have full two weeks) equipped with all the useful knowledge about my rights that you all have kindly share with me.

Wish me luck.

[alpal]

It can be hard to collimate a refractor.
I know someone who had to send a Takahashi back to Japan to get it collimated properly.

I hope they fix it OK.

[Exfso]

That was me a couple of years ago, unless you know someone else:shrug:

[HenryNZ]

I did read your collimation woes Peter. I hope Tasco won't goof up the "repair" of my telescope. A triplet is not exactly easy to collimate without an optical bench.

[alpal]

It was someone else.
It's one reason I like Newts.

[kittenshark]

Huh... the retailer who sold it to you should be doing the legwork and you shouldn't have to be chasing Tasco for it, though you might have better luck dealing with Tasco. They've got pretty good service in our dealings with them.

It is a bit tricky if you are living outside Australia. Sometimes warranties do not cover overseas imports (but I'm not sure if that's legal to say so). The risk to you is that you have to pay for shipping things back if it needs repair. This is why it's best to buy local.

ACCC states:


Your scope would come with Skywatcher's 5 year warranty so it is perfectly valid, but you'd still have to deal with the dealer you bought it from for service. (Also refer to ACCC website for rules about repair/replacement/refunds.)

Most specialist telescope retailers here are pretty good with their service but occasionally you do hit the occasional bump, especially when having to handle more unusual cases. Many of them are very small businesses (here it's only me and my partner) and can get overwhelmed occasionally. Often the case big/expensive scopes don't have a very high profit margin on them so it is difficult to deal with after-sales without making a loss.

This is Tasco's policy:

[doppler]

"Freight and Handling

You (the customer) will be responsible for costs incurred in returning the faulty item to Tasco for assessment. You can choose any shipping method when returning an item to Tasco (courier, reg post etc). In turn, Tasco will cover all costs in returning the repaired/replaced item back to you (using StarTrack Express courier or registered post)."



The customer shouldn't be out of pocket for a failure in quality control, the scope is brand new and doesn't work as specified.

[bugeater]

This sort of thing really make me angry. Either they are ignorant or are being purposely misleading (hmm misleading and deceptive conduct....). Neither fills me with much confidence. Firstly you don't even need to deal with them. You deal with the retailer. Secondly you are allowed to claim reasonable transportation costs (i.e. postage) from the retailer.

It's been a while since I did my contract law, but basically your contract is with the retailer and the retailer only. If they sell you something dodgy, they are responsible for rectifying the situation. As far as the consumer is concerned, that's all that matters.

[kittenshark]

I took this from the tasco sales site, and I think this warranty was directed to their customers (the dealers), not the end consumer.

If you bought it direct from them (wholesale), yes according to them you have to pay shipping back.

If you bought it from the retailer, it would depend on the retailer's warranty terms and conditions so you need to consult the retailer, not Tasco, if you want to claim shipping and such other costs.

It is not misleading if it's clearly stated, but is it good service? :question:

[bugeater]

Something is misleading if they are purposely stating your rights are X when they are actually Y. Particularly if you accepting X is to their benefit. And legally I believe it can even be broader than this.

But as you say, perhaps it is referring to the dealer's rights, which wouldn't be covered by consumer law. I doubt it though. I've come across this thing often enough to be pretty sure it's targeted at the end consumer.

The retailers warranty terms and conditions only matter if they are in excess of what you already get under the consumer law. The retailer is liable for reasonable transportation costs back to them. Of course, what is reasonable?

I've had retailers try to pull the wool over my eyes often enough that this makes me quite angry. The worst was fighting over a brand new car with excessive oil consumption (which after two years finally got fixed).

[HenryNZ]

Update. Tasco emailed me today and said that they have not been able to test the scope in the last 10+ days because the weather in Sydney has not been conducive to testing. They said they are going to send the telescope to someone outside of Sydney (away from the clouds etc) to test, together with a potential replacement new unit they have which they will offer me if my one is proven faulty.

Not ideal but I think the response from Tasco is already million times better than from the retailer I bought the telescope from so I am satisfied, for the time being. When I first contacted the retailer about the fault, he / she questioned whether there was in fact a fault - I could not believe that he/she could possibly suggest that the perceived fault was due to seeing! When given the photographic proof, a third party document describing the exact same problem and a gentle pointer to my astrophotography portfolio to show him/her that I am not a newbie to be fooled - he / she washed his/her hand and redirected me to Tasco. In hindsight, I guess this is really blessing in disguise as Tasco has been much easier to deal with so far.

What I wasn't sure and still not sure at the moment is whether something as new as my telescope should have been treated differently from a telescope that has seen some use. I got lucky my brother happened to be visiting home over Easter and could take the telescope back with him to Sydney at no cost to me. I imagine I would be fuming if I have to pay $200+ in shipping to send the dud back.

Anyway, I wait eagerly what the final outcome is going to be. My cynical side wonders if my posting here may have hurried things along... But regardless, I am only too happy that there appears to be some progress and I really do hope that Tasco will get things right by me.

[ab1963]

In a nutshell you are 100% and most businesses would honour the fact that it is their responsibility to rectify any issues with items bought period.
Trust is a 2 way street,you trust when you buy that you will be looked after if any issues and never mind the legal ramifications let's just go to common decency the retailer should have fixed this,whoever this retailer is cannot be trusted

[Nikolas]

What was the name of the retailer? PM me if you want

[MortonH]

It's reasonable that Tasco have to verify the fault before they can decide how to rectify it. It's unfortunate that Australia is such a small market that they don't have an optical bench and are relying on star testing, which requires a clear sky!

[HenryNZ]

Agree. I see that as progress and I am happy to wait.

[casstony]

Any update on the Esprit 80 Henry? It's a bit off-putting to have such an expensive scope turn up without perfect collimation.
They're not easy to collimate either by the looks of it: http://interferometrie.blogspot.com.au/2014/08/esprit-tuning-how-we-finetune-esprit80.html

[HenryNZ]

Tasco could not repair it so to their credit they have sent me a new replacement. I have received it two days ago but I have not been able to test it due to weather.

The article you linked described the exact problem I have experienced.

[casstony]

Sounds like there might be some original stock floating around without the updated lens cell.
Please let us know how the new one performs when the weather improves.

[HenryNZ]

That's what I thought too. I do believe the esprit is a good scope, but you want t make sure you do not get the old stock pre August 2014. I just wasn't expecting there would be 2014 stock in 2016.

Anyway I am happy with Tasco service so far. It is quite a relief that they will pick up the slack. As long as the replacement tests ok I would consider this matter close. Just waiting for a clear night for the test.