Hartung's

[StuTodd]

Hello All.

I have been seeking out a copy of Hartung's "Astronomical Objects for Southern Telescopes" but it remains elusive.

I enquired at my local library but the replacement cost they conjured up was more than my car is worth.

Have you found one for a bargain and whats the best astro book you have come across by accident?

Forever in search...

:sadeyes:

[Kunama]

I found a Hartung's 2nd edition in unused condition on my pillow last birthday, pretty chuffed about that find :D:D

I also found the "Explorers of the Southern Sky" for $3 at the Lifeline Book Fair.

[StuTodd]

Really nice finds, especially the birthday one!
The nicest book I have found in a fair was Wilkins and Moore "The Moon". A lovely book but never a Hartung's on my pillow.

[pfitzgerald]

Hi Stu

The following link might help you in your search:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=Astronomical+Objects+for+Souther n+Telescopes

If you look carefully there's a reasonably priced 1984 edition in a Melbourne bookshop.

HTH

Paul

[StuTodd]

Thanks Paul.

That is a very good first edition find!
Considering all things, the second edition (slightly updated) would perhaps be a better book, or one day someone might update Burnhams!

Stu

[inertia8]

There's a first edition for sale in the forums here:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=144329

[pfitzgerald]

You're welcome Stu - I often use abebooks to find those hard to get and out of print books. It's like going on a mini treasure hunt sometimes. :-)

Paul

[Satchmo]

I just pulled my second edition Hartungs off the shelf to re-aquaint myself having not looked at it in years . I checked the back as I always used to purchase date and sign my books .

I kid you not : 8/4/86 Exactly 30 years ago today :)

[raymo]

There's a slight error there I think Mark.
If it is a paperback, it has to be the 1984 reprint of the first edition.
The second edition came out in 1995.

[astroron]

Updating of Burnhams will never happen,
It is a seminal work of astronomy which won't be
attempted by anyone,lots of people have discussed it
But none are keen to attempt it.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[astroron]

I have a copy of the first edition hardback,first published in 1968
also second edition 1995 signed by David Malin. :D
Cheers:thumbsup:

[raymo]

I love my Burnham's; I can just immerse myself in it at any random page
when I have a little spare time. I do the same with my Hartungs as well.
They are both more than just a reference asset.
IMHO the second [1995] edition is the better book, but I think it is harder to find, and therefore a bit more expensive.
raymo

[SkyWatch]

You might be able to get the .pdf version: You can try David Frew here:
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=19&ved=0ahUKEwjp8uqAv_7LAhVFK6YKHfZCDX w4ChAWCEwwCA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2 F12435725%2FHartungs_Astronomical_O bjects_for_Southern_Telescopes&usg=AFQjCNH1_SVsJ1wC5ZKlewbFEDCoKH8 ylA&bvm=bv.119028448,d.dGY

All the best,

Dean

[StuTodd]

That's worth a look thanks Dean. What is it i'd be signing up to though?

I'm a Burnham's fan too. Just being able to just open the books at any page, the enthusiasm of Robert Burnham Jr. jumping out. The poems, mythology, historical observations of objects, a masterpiece.

Hartung's is next on the list though.

[SkyWatch]

I don't think you are signing up for anything here. David Frew is one of the authors, and I think this is just a service he provides because the book is out of print.

[StuTodd]

Ah well, I tried that and nothing from David Frew as yet.
I know where the library came up with the car value quote, Amazon are listing the second edition for US$2100!!

:jawdrop:...love that smiley!



Stu

[RickS]

I should have bought a few extra copies for my super fund back in the day :lol:

[astroron]

I will sell my used signed edition by David Malin and Fred Watson,sorry no David Frew signiture :( , for half of that price if anyone is interested.:P;)
Cheers:thumbsup:

[inertia8]

Can we not all write to the previous publisher to see if they can do another run?

[astroron]

It has been suggested a thousand times to them with no result.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[N1]

Worth a crowdfunding campaign perhaps? Cost may not be the only reason though...:shrug:

[inertia8]

Crowd fund to buy the publishing rights from them and then goto another publisher perhaps.

[astroron]

Tell me exactly how many people do you think would want this book?
At the most it would be probably in the hundreds not thousands.
If there was the demand you possibly think there is,don't you think the publishers would also think along those lines and publish another edition,
They would have a lot more information than we do.

There has been over the years requests for another publication,to no avail.
It aint going to happen.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[inertia8]

You're right, it would not be a best seller. I guess all we can do is keep writing to them so that they know that there is a demand.

[N1]

Hi Ron, Twelve tousand twelve hundred and ...wait for it... twelve. :P
So what do we do now :confused2:

Exact numbers... well I suppose a crowd funding campaign could establish that. Not having done one myself, I don't know the dynamics, but I think if it doesn't reach the target, nothing happens and no one pays anything apart from some listing fees perhaps. I do suspect the issue isn't just the cost though...and establishing that - plus the funding target - will be the hard part. It might be worth a thought to make this part of any written requests to them, rather than just ".... puhlease won't you do another one..."

The publishers may only have more info on this if they have put some effort into investigating it. Nothing so far seems to suggest that they have...:shrug:



I can see why that's your preferred outcome:



:poke::scared3:

[astroron]

The book is a very comprehensive one and would be quite expensive to produce now.
I think I paid over $70:00 dollars way back in 1995, it would cost a lot more today.
Melbourne University Press have been asked lots of times for a reprint and have shown no inclination to go ahead with one.
Another thing, the authors would wont to make some alterations as probably some of the science has changed since that time, and they also may not be too interested in doing it.



Hi Ron, Twelve thousand twelve hundred and ...wait for it... twelve.
So what do we do now.
I love your made up numbers, but they really don't mean a thing :P
Cheers:thumbsup:

PS My offer still stands. ;)

[raymo]

I'm guessing that it would probably cost about $120-150 today, which is pretty much what you would pay for a good used copy of the 2nd edition.[if you
could find one].
raymo

[anj026]

I just realised I have two copies. I paid $79.95 for the second edition back when they were available new. I got the paperback reprint of the first edition for $8.80 at a secondhand bookshop.

What do you need it for Stu? Are you an observer? Does it matter to you which edition?

Andy
Perth WA

[Kunama]

To think I gave my spare copy away free to a person I had only just met..... and it was a copy originally owned by J Dana Patchick .....

[astroron]

Even selling at that price I couldn't see it brake even,never mind make a profit. :(
Cheers:thumbsup:

[el_draco]

I have a hardcopy of this book and I reckon it must be a first edition. Problem is its been "libraried" at some point. Dust jacket has been cut down and plastic contact covered. Its got NGC 3293 on the cover and b&w plates. A couple of pages from the front are missing, including publishing data but, apart from that, its very clean. Can anyone confirm its provenience?

[PeterM]

Thanks for the heads up on the bookstore in Melbourne.
On Tuesday I bought their 1st edition for $60. I have the 2nd edition and the 1st will be a fine addition to my library.

I used to ring some of the bigger bookstores years ago and get them to send me a list of Astrobooks they had in store. there were some real surprises and some great finds.
Might start doing again and reporting here on IIS "what's out there".
So I have Sybers in Caulfield and Archives in Brisbane, anyone else got some big book store names in their locations to follow up?
Thanks

[astroron]

Sounds like the first edition printed in 1968.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[astroron]

Hi Peter, I got my first edition at.a second hand book shop in Nambour a few years ago for $7:00 :D
Bought my second addition when the book was first published and got it signed by David Malin in the same year her in Brisbane. :D
It gets good use, and is a great reference book at the scope.
I have covered it in strong clear plastic, aand love the book to pieces. :)
Cheers:thumbsup:

[StuTodd]

Hi Andy.

I am an observer and, as many people here have agreed, the book is a lovely, useful addition to any astro library. Still very relevant and perhaps more so for observing at the scope (although nowhere near as comprehensive as Burnhams).

I will trawl the rare bookshops and home clearances for a copy, and perhaps a few more gems along the way.

Cheers,
Stu

[Satchmo]

Sure , I meant the second printing ( or first reprint ) of the first edition .

I was never really attracted to the 1995 edition as my knowledge of the original , which was available in Amateur Astronomers Supply Co had a bit more `boyhood' romance attached to it !

[w0mbat]

After seeing this thread I went and found my 1968 first edition which I bought from Amateur Astronomers Supply Co not long after it came out when I was in my late teens. It has $6.75 written on the first page. It is in more or less original condition including the dust cover which I covered in clear plastic soon after I bought it. There is just a bit of browning of the page edges.
Are we really saying here that it could have significant value?
Ian

[raymo]

Ian, yes it has some value, but as the second[1995] edition was enlarged
and updated, it is the more sought after version. I seem to recall one of
the edition that you have selling here recently for around $90-$100.
The second edition generally fetches more.
raymo

[speach]

there is one on sale at Amazon price $2221, and that's US dollars!!!!

[astroron]

I still am open to offers of half that price.;) :lol:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[ausastronomer]

1984 approx? book review by Professor Colin Keay on Hartungs. (not sure where from)
1984 Soft Cover version second printing of the First Edition
1995 Second Edition

Cheers,
John B

[speach]

Why is it so dear, is it that good?

[Kunama]

It is not always so expensive, my copy was bought off eBay for $102 including postage and appeared to have never been opened.

[raymo]

Matt, how long ago, which edition, and AU$ or US$?

Simon, the second edition[which is what I have]is the only amateur level book that I am aware of that contains so much data pertaining to the Southern Hemisphere in one place. The 37 page table of telescopic objects in order of Right Ascension is invaluable. I use my copy more than any other book.
raymo

[astroron]

In a word "Yes"
There are other reasons as well.
Supply and demand, not a lot around that people
want to sell.
while people are willing to pay large sums of money for it it will be
expensive.
Out of print and very little chance of it being reprinted.

As the title says

Hartung's "Astronomical Objects for Southern Telescopes"

It is a book for southern telescope observers which no other single book
offers the quality of information as far as I am aware.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Kunama]

May 2015, eBay, AUD, 1995 second edition, unused/unmarked, price sticker on back $79.95 :D

My dearly beloved found it!

[raymo]

Stick to it like glue Matt, I haven't seen it anywhere near that price on Amazon for ages; in fact when I looked the other day, they didn't have
a copy at any price.
raymo

[speach]

Well I hope it's as good as you say, as I've just bought a new copy:):):)

[raymo]

Where did you find it Simon?
raymo

[speach]

Amazon

[Domol]

I have the second edition which I brought at Borders in the early naughties (2000's)! It has been my Bible! After all these years I've nearly observed every object listed, and there's over 1000, and I'm ready to start over again!!.

Every visual observer should have one!
Why can't they publish a e-book version ???

[gary]

A few years ago at the IceInSpace Astrocamp, Andrew Murrell arrived
with a box of astronomy books to sell at the swap meet.

One of the books included a mint copy of the second edition of Hartungs.

When the second edition was published, Andrew and David Frew were
friends at the time. Andrew told me that one day David arrived from the
printers carrying cartons of the first run of books hot off the press.

David opened a carton and handed Andrew a book. Essentially the first
one to be distributed.

The book he had brought to the swap meet was that very first one David
had handed to him. Andrew had subsequently picked up another copy
which he had used in the field.

Anyway we are there in the covered area at Lostock and a guy moseys
up and starts browsing the books. "Is this one any good?", he asks,
picking up the Hartungs. Andrew has a price tag on it of only a
few dollars and Andrew calmly informs him that it is an excellent guide
to observe with.

However this chap doesn't seem convinced.

I chirp in and explain how the book is divided into chapters devoted to
each constellation observable from the southern hemisphere and that
each of these makes for an excellent observing list for a night's viewing.
In short, it is a really fabulous book.

He still does not look convinced.

Andrew was a salesman by profession and by now both us are starting
to wonder why this pitch is not moving this book at such a dirt cheap price.

However, a few more soft words from Andrew and the guy pulls out a few
bucks and the deal is done.

The buyer could probably have that book appraised on the amateur
astronomy equivalent of the Antiques Roadshow today and be amazed
what some second hand book stores are asking for it at the moment. :lol:

[gary]

It should also be noted that the first edition of Hartungs publishes
co-ordinate positions in terms of the B1950.0 co-ordinate system
whereas the revised second edition by Malin and Frew uses J2000.0
co-ordinates.

This is an important practical point if relying on the co-ordinates in the
book.

As most readers will be aware, due to a complex series of wobbles
in the Earth's axis of rotation, the apparent position of stars and
other celestial objects will appear to shift over the years in a RA/Dec sense.
The Earth's poles precess like a wobble in a spinning top.

It comes as a surprise to many enthusiasts how significant the rate
of precession is.

It shifts at about 50.3 arc seconds a year - about the diameter of Jupiter.

So going between the B1950.0 Epoch to J2000.0 is about 2515 arc seconds,
which is equivalent to 41.9 arc minutes. Depending upon how extended the
target object is, that can make quite a difference in reliably
locating and identifying it through 'blind pointing', if one relies
on the B1950.0 RA/Dec co-ordinates alone.

Interested readers might like to know what is the significance of the 'B' and 'J' prefixes.

The 'B' stands for Besselian, named after Wilhelm Bessel, and the
"Besselian epochs" such as B1950.0 were based on the tropical year
(i.e. a solar year) in 1900, the reference being when the Sun's
longitude was 280 degrees toward the beginning of the year.

The 'J' stands for Julian and such epochs are based on a year
being exactly 365.25 days long.

An additional subtlety is the fact that the J2000.0 system uses a revised
reference frame, known as FK5, which in 1974 replaced the previous
system known as FK4. For example, FK5 takes into account the orbital
motion of stars around the Galactic center - a very tiny difference -
but nevertheless arose as knowledge of the Galaxy grew.

These days astronomers have adopted a revised reference frame known
as the International Celestial Reference Frame (ICRF), which is the
realization of the IAU International Celestial Reference System (ICRS).
This has superseded the J2000.0 co-ordinate system.

However, in practical terms, the difference between J2000.0 co-ordinates and
ICRF co-ordinates are minuscule, by design, and for amateur observers
they can be thought of as equivalent.

There will never be a J2050.0 epoch. The IAU resolved in the year 2000
that all co-ordinates from now on will be with respect the ICRF.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

[PeterM]

Hey Gary,
I still have the text file I made up of Hartungs (revised) Deep Sky objects for input into Argo Navis. Here it is if anyone wants it.
Im still looking for a V1 Hartungs as the bookstore I thought had it (as was noted earlier) couldn't find it when I ordered it.

[gary]

Thanks Peter,

Your Hartungs Argo Navis object file contribution and a couple of other
Hartung spread sheets are also available in the Files->User Catalogs
section of the Argo Navis User's Group (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/argo_navis_dtc/info).

I've used your list myself and I know it has provided enjoyment to many
other Argo Navis users as well. The comments are fabulous. Thank you once again.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place
Mount Kuring-Gai NSW 2080
Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

[inertia8]

I walked thru a house today prior to an auction and low and behold there was an old saxon newt in the corner of a bedroom and a perfect 1995 copy of hartungs on the bookshelf... The house sold to someone else but I'm putting in an offer to the estate for the book... Fingers crossed.

[Stonius]

It's not quite the same as having a copy in your hot little hand, but the second edition is available in electronic format on Google Books (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=EQAYGmZT0o8C&pg=PR5&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Edit - apologies - it's only a preview with certain chunks unavailable. I wonder if that means there is an electronic version that could be made available if enough people requested it?

Markus

[StuTodd]

Great stuff and good luck with that!
My OP asked about the best accidental book find, think you top the list so far.


Stu

[inertia8]

According to the agent the current occupier of the property was the astronomer not the owner, hence I'm still likely to be on the hunt.

[speach]

Well mine arrived today from the States, new book never been opened and it is the 1968 edition. Iv'e already learnt something from it.

[astroron]

Good catch. :)
There are some major differences in the original book
and the 1995 version.
There is update science and also the co-ordinates are 1950 for the first version and 2000 for the updated version.
In some cases the positions can be noticeable for some object's.
You should still get some good value out of it.
Enjoy. :)
Cheers:thumbsup:

[StuTodd]

I got a reply from David Frew on Academia today.

He said he doesn't have any spare copies and to keep hunting the shops and internet for a .pdf lurking in a far corner somewhere.

The hunt for the 1995 continues...:sadeyes:

Stu

[andy47ca]

A scanned PDF copy of the 1995 edition of this book does exist. It is 600Mb in size.
However, I assume there are copyright issues in distributing a PDF copy of the book even if it is currently out of print.

[StuTodd]

I'll take me chances....:)

[astroron]

Did you get my PM:question:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[StuTodd]

Hi Ron,

I did and sorry for not replying sooner! :ashamed:

Stu

[speach]

Plenty available at Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0521052246/ref=sr_1_1_twi_har_1_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465774871&sr=1-1&keywords=Astronomical+Objects+for+S outhern+Telescopes

[raymo]

I think they are pretty much all the first edition, most people are after the
much harder to get 1995 edition.
raymo

[Ghen]

USD290 plus shipping...hmmm....