What would you recommend to get a child started in astronomy

[AEAJR]

A friend or relative comes to you for advice. They have a child, say 7-12 years old, who has shown some interest in astronomy. They don't have any background in astronomy so they come to you for help. :question:

They want to encourage the child but they don’t have a lot of money to spend on another passing fancy. Say the budget is $100 up to $150 US, maybe, for an upcoming birthday or other occasion. You translate that into whatever currency you like.


What would you suggest and why?

Do you suggest an optical device?

binoculars
spotting scope
travel scope
refractor
reflector
GoTo
?????


What other advice do you offer your friend? What else do you recommend to help get the child started properly with the greatest chance of success in this new area of interest on this limited budget?

[rally]

A few other ideas to add
iPad apps - they have knowledge apps, guides, planetarium apps etc
Books inc Space travel, Hubble images, the NASA spaceships and programs, SciFi etc all add to the interest
Magazines
Trips to the local observatory or local club star parties where they can experience other people's equipment and knowledge
Astronomy Cards

Fascination and Interest can be kindled and maintained by many things - it doesnt have to include expensive equipment, but if real interest and enthusiasm is shown, then IMHO they shouldnt necessarily be limiting their budget to such a restricted amount.

If you can get out to some club star parties, you will soon see if its a passing fad or a genuine interest.
But it can be a Catch22 if the budget is so close to zero so as the make the whole experience a failure.

Knowing where to look and at what times is the key - young children need their interests satisfied in a relatively short time frame - say a couple of hours, they also need to get to bed much earlier - so viewing times can be limited.
No freezing cold for too long, no Mozzies, hot drinks and foods
The night's experience will be remembered more fondly if its short and sweet, packed with a punch and without personal hardship and with the least amount of time finding objects or having to adjust vision to see in the eyepiece (ie no point trying to have a kid start using averted vision to try and see a faint fuzzie that requires skill to observe)

The types of objects that are to be viewed tend to be different - Kids seem much more interested in the 2 big Planets (Jupiter and Saturn) , the Moon, big Nebulae and large Galaxies than say Doubles, fuzzy galaxies and asterisms.
So the choice of subject and how its presented is going to have a much greater bearing on the success than the level of gear.
The average keen amateur wont be setting up when the moon is out bright and early, but that is exactly what you want for a child to have a partial moon out early in the evening and then watch the Terminator move across the moon.

If good gear is bought then at least it will hold its resale value somewhat
But you don't need to buy new gear to enjoy superb views - second hand equipment generally works just as well.

Having done a bunch of Kids star parties, you need to get the recipe right - so its not the same as dealing with a bunch of hardened adult amateurs.
Fancy dress star parties, prizes, novelty giveaways and colour images or live video generate a lot of interest.

Good luck

Rally

[janoskiss]

For that kind of money, a pair of binoculars, a planisphere and maybe a basic star atlas / introductory guide book. Forget about telescopes that cheap: they just end up being a source of frustration. It'll be used to look at the Moon once or twice and that'll be it.

[Atmos]

I'd say a decent pair of 8x40 or 10x50 binos. They're multipurpose being able to be used both day and night. They're also not too heavy at that size, the 8x40 is okay for a 7 year old :)

[AEAJR]

Thanks. I would have thought 8X40s a bit big and heavy for a 7 year old. I was concerned that 7X35s might even be challenging. But I don't have a 7 year old to test them on. ;)

[Wavytone]

Take them to a star party and let them look at a few things through a big scope.

At that age no need to buy lots of stuff beyond a few books, an iPad app and a pair of binoculars.

Joining a society - if there is an active one nearby - is probably the best things to do.

[AstralTraveller]

It depends on the society and its dynamics. Astro societies tend to be dominated by men older than that kid's dad who discuss things way over his head. You need a place with a youth section and/or beginner classes.

FWIW my intro was via a book I got when I was 12. The astro club, which had a vibrant youth section, and the scope came later.

[mental4astro]

Think about what a little kid would want - a telescope! :astron:

If they are showing an interest in astronomy, then a telescope would be the way to go, in so far as hardware goes. Binos are a good suggestion, but you need to appeal to their sense of pride and they need something that will make a statement in their mind. I that is the only point of difference I have with what most people have suggested. Binos are good - no argument from me there. But a scope will capture their imagination more than binos, and won't need to hold the scope in their hands. You can follow it up with a modest pair of binos, as these can be used at any time, not just astro, and they don't need to be anything special. Any pair of binos will show more than naked eyes alone.

What scope? A small refractor. Unless they are familiar with scopes, a refractor is what they will associate with 'telescope'. A 70mm aperture is plenty big for them to handle with only a small amount of help from mum & dad if they are little. They will be able to handle it on their own as they grow. A small refractor will be the easiest for them to aim and get used to some of the mental gymnastics the image of an astronomical scope produces. Such an instrument is not too big a financial expense, and if the kid's interest wanes a bit, it can be stored happily somewhere out of the way until the interest picks up again, or can be passed on without any problem.

A scope alone isn't enough though. An astro app is a must for today's kids. Something like Sky Safari is excellent. It will help explain what different objects are. The only down side is these apps rarely, if ever, mention how DSO's actually appear in a scope. So the kid might be expecting to see a fabulous spiral galaxy, because that's what the pretty pictures shows, when the reality of a scope is not even close. This is the single biggest obstacle. The child's own temperment needs to lend itself to being happy with quiet pursuits, as astro is not a "smash 'n' grab" hobby.

Maybe... a planisphere. Might be somewhat obsolete next to an astro app, but they are light weight and less crammed with info than an app. Its simplicity is its appeal. If the scope really grabs their imagination, then a more detailed book/atlas is good too. Something that will inform them more on the technical aspects of DSO's, like size, magnitude, desriptions, etc.

A star party is a good idea too.

We can get caught up with our own experience with things astro. But it can mean that we forget what it is to be a little kid. We need to appeal to their sense of wonder and amazement. It is one of the hardest things to do at an outreach night, to appeal to their wonder and excitement without pushing the jargon and stats.

My thoughts anyway.

[mental4astro]

Me too, :). No astro club, but the book most certainly as it got me curious about things.

So I'll alter my post below to say a book first, and a small refractor to follow if the interest is pricked up, :) Or better still, include them in the decision making process of a scope or binos once their interest has been aroused! :) :)

Alex.

[AEAJR]

Great ideas. Keep it coming.

[mental4astro]

Another point of interest that both parents and kids can share is spotting the international space station as it goes overhead.

This link is to NASA's 'spot the station' app where you just need to put in your location details, and it will give you the time, direction and duration of the station's apparition:

http://spotthestation.nasa.gov/

Alex.

[raymo]

If the child is nearer the upper age that you mention, binos will be fine, but if he or she is 7 or so, will need help with focusing the two separate eyepieces properly. Just a thought.
raymo

[75BC]

The thing that sparked my interest as a kid (around 9 or 10 yo) was a pair of bino’s my older sister bought me. Fairly decent 10 x 50’s. A little heavy for that age but I grew into them. I also had a telescope that looked impressive for a kid, but was majorly disappointing. So if price is a factor this is the way I would go. I think you’ll get better optics for the budget, versatile, and they are so easy to use.

The other thing that cemented my interest was at around 12 years old we moved away from the city. With dark skies and a new moon, the Milky Way was simply mesmerizing. You couldn't help but look at it. A drive to the country with the kids is very low cost, but can be very impressive. I’m sure a lot of city kids have no idea how bright the Milky Way actually is.

These 2 things gave me enough interest in the subject to last another 15 years before I could by a decent telescope.

[Atmos]

As much as I agree that getting a small refractor is a great way to go, within the budget you're looking the mount (being cheap and nasty) could quickly take away all joys of using the telescope. This is mostly why I suggest a pair of binos, they're as stable as the users arms, unless mounted onto a tripod :)

[AEAJR]

Thanks for the flow of ideas.

I really like and agree with all the activities that have been recommended. Trip to a dark area, go to a sky party and/or club and such.

However when someone comes to me for this kind of advice they are usually set on buying something. If I don't offer some guidance I am pretty sure they are going to buy something anyway. So here are some that I might suggest that are within the budget of $100 to 150 US.


Meade Infinity 70 - if they really need to stay under $100
http://www.amazon.com/Meade-Instruments-209003-Refractor-Telescope/dp/B00LY8JVZ2/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1453613802&sr=8-12&keywords=TElescope+under+%24200

Or get them to stretch a bit to one of these:

Meade Infinity 80 - $160
http://www.amazon.com/Meade-Instruments-209004-Refractor-Telescope/dp/B00LY8JVZC/ref=sr_1_23?ie=UTF8&qid=1453614127&sr=8-23&keywords=TElescope+under+%24200

Another short stretch

Meade Infinity 90 - $170
http://www.amazon.com/Meade-Instruments-209004-Refractor-Telescope/dp/B00LY8JVZC/ref=sr_1_23?ie=UTF8&qid=1453614127&sr=8-23&keywords=TElescope+under+%24200

I think any of these would be good enough to get a child started. I especially like the short FL 80 mm which has slow motion controls and will give wider views. This provides broader, more binocular like context while making it easier to find and track things. Yet it should support up to about 160X. If the interest passes the investment was not high. If the interest grows this will become the grab and go scope to some larger scope later.

My first scope upon returning to the hobby was a Meade ETX 80 400 mm refractor. Even though I have an 8" dob I still use the ETX 80 often.

[mental4astro]

Ed, if it comes to a choice between those scopes, consider the following :

* the EPs won't be flash. I'm sure they won't be plossls. You will need to check. Reason being for 80mm refractor, chromatic aberration will be strong if the EPs can't handle the scope's light cone. Nothing worse than a crappy image when looking at the Moon and planets.

* Slow motion controls look nice but for a kid, they are more of a hindrance. They will get used to nudging the scope very quickly.

I'd look at the 70mm refractor for a kid. It give cleaner views with cheap EPs, and can be easily improved with better ones that won't give too much issues with chromatic aberration like a faster scope will.

[AEAJR]

Good points. The eyepieces are Mead Modified Acromats.

I have one Meade MA in a .965 format for a 3" Tasco reflector. Seems to work OK but that is a F 9 reflector. Good views of the moon and Saturn.

S&T did a review of the Infinity 90 mm which has the same eyepieces. While they were not impressed with the barlow, no knocks on the eyepieces. But that is a 600 mm F6.7 as compared to the 400 F5 of the 80 mm scope.

In the 70 mm they should be fine as starter eyepieces even if the barlow falls short.

[Atmos]

Although 70mm is the smallest of those three, it'll give the most corrected views. It'll largely be used for looking at the moon and planets because they are the brightest and most magnificent at that age, better the best out of those objects (less chromatic aberration) is probably the better way to go.

[mental4astro]

"Modified Acromats" I love it, :lol:. Sexing up the old Kellner. These are better than Hygens and Ramsdens, for sure. But in a fast scope, all three of these show a lot of field curvature as they are not designed to handle such a fast light cone. Chromatic aberration like I said earlier is a major weakness when popped into a fast instrument too. The 70mm refractor at f/10 is better suited to these Kellners. The 80mm is a nice scope, but with the supplied EPs, it will disappoint.

If the kid shows some interest, the EPs can be upgraded to modest plossls, which will give wider AFOV, better correction & much better image quality than the supplied EPs. And won't exceed the budget either.

The barlow packed with these are never any good. Cheap scopes come with cheap EPs and accessories. Useless too with such a scope as it will exceed the max. magnification the objective can produce. Nothing to be gained with that bit of gear other than disappointment.

[AEAJR]

Going back to the original post, this is all hypothetical. I just wanted to see what people's approach would be when someone comes to them for advice about getting a child started on a limited budget.

You have all provided great advice and input.

[rally]

Hypothetically speaking
Most of the comments above are probably aimed at the 7-10yo
A 12 year old will already have a critical eye for quality.
They will be expert users of the internet and will probably already have done their research.
They will start asking for stuff higher up - Planewave 12.5" on Ascension Mount, or Astrophysics 4" on Paramount !

They will probably already know that there is almost no colour to be seen through an eyepiece and probably want to go down the astrophotography route - but of course they are only 12 yo so they have no idea how deep they would be getting or difficult and hard it is !

So to spend less than the price of a Precise Parts adapter on them, or about the cost of a single cheap but useable quality eyepiece going to seem like an insult to their interest.
The telescope is going to end up an all of family piece of equipment - find the extra dollars and buy something half decent.

Truthfully I wouldnt even bother spending $150 on my son if he showed genuine interest in astronomy at the age of 12yo
If I spent that little it would be counterproductive - but then I have never understood the rationale behind Kids meals at hotels and restaurants where you feed them low grade cheap meals comprised of chips, reconstituted nuggets and carbohydrates instead of good food
Why would we feed the next generation rubbish food !

Why would we buy them equipment that is more likely to quell their interest due to its limitations and low quality than buy them better quality equipment.
You say on a limited budget - but surely this is a case more of limited priority than true limited budget.
Just wait alittle longer, buy components for Birthdays and Christmas.

Sure you dont want to waste money on a passing fad, but at the same time there are star parties etc to evaluate their real interest, so once established - get the family a decent system that they can grow into.

Mine may not be the most popular opinion, but I dont see any value (especially on a limited budget) of buying gear that will need an immediate upgrade (ie doubling or quadrupling the initial expenditure for eyepieces or mount of OTA) just to maintain interest and save wasting time on failed viewing sessions and tweaking to try and get a half decent view in the first place !

[AEAJR]

Well, of course YOU would not buy a $150 scope for your kid. You would give him time on your scope or give him one of your old ones.

Same for me.

But the question was not about parents who are deep into astronomy . It is about parents who have seen Jupiter in the sky 100 times and assumed it was a helicopter with a search light, or looked at the moon in thanks so they could find the keys they dropped.

I guess, when I graduated high school my Dad should have bought me a Mercedes rather than letting me get some used junker. now THAT would have been cool.

My folks got me a Sears 60 mm with a zoom eyepiece and I LOVED it, poor optics and wobbly mount and all. But I was about 12 or 13 when I got it. And used it for years with no help from anyone. I still have it. Got me started. Right up to the point where I discovered girls and cars and then college. An 8" Dob would not have stopped that train from leaving the station. :lol:

Everyone has a different view on the matter. And I welcome all views.

[rally]

Ed,

My first scope was a low/medium priced kit that had really lousy EPs
It cost $800 - so by no means cheap but by no means high quality either.

The scope itself was an OK 4" reflector on a cheap Alt/Az mount, but what let the system down completely were the EPs, but I was not to know that for a long time.

After spending the first many nights struggling to get a good view of Saturn, I spent a lot of time trying to collimate and eventually realised that I already had the best view I was going to get with the gear I had.

I then disappointedly put that scope back in its box and it took another 5 years before I plunged in head first with a single purchase of good quality gear.
I did this in isolation - which in hindsight wasnt the best way to go - I should have visited a club and attended a star party but I didnt know of their existence . . . let alone value

So I guess I would really hate to see a young person's interest dashed for the same sorts of reasons - and I can see how it could occur so easily if the inappropriate choices are made up front.

I have run quite a few star parties for primary school kids and even gave away 50 Galileo scopes at my own expense to help stimulate some interest with those that had the keenest interests, so I am genuinely keen to see young kids given the opportunity to be motivated by astronomy.

Cheers
Rally