Classic Telescopes

[The Mekon]

There is a great thread on that other astro forum (Cloudy nights) that discusses all manner of classic scopes. How about IIS also has a similar thread?

I will kick off by remarking on a scope that has been listed on that electronic auction site for some months now. It appears to be a 4" Thomas Cook that the seller is expecting $29,999 for!

Question how much do IIS members feel a scope like this is worth?

I will post my idea later, but to give an idea what old scopes fetch, the 8" Thomas & Cook from the Port Elizabeth observatory recently fetched $USD17,000

what does that make a 4" worth?

[MattT]

$29,999 for that scope.....tell him he's dreamin'.....to quote Michael Catons line from the classic film 'The Castle'

Doubt you'll get that much interest John.....most people who buy refractors get those short stubbie things and bung a camera on one end....I don't know why :shrug:

Long fl fracs rule in my backyard f11, 12 and 13....and that's not that long.

I'd love to have a 19th century scope to go with my 19th century mount.

Matt

[FI93]

Will it wait til i win Lotto?:rofl:

[dannat]

i would have thought a 4" would pull max $2-3k, i think a collector wouldn't get his money back, and as for function you can get a more capable instrument prob for less. check what zeiss as scopes pull, but they ave the whole german history thing the europeans like, the AP stowaway have the made in US & are prob the perfect travel scope. quester is next closest..even their old ones only bring around this level

[torana68]

probably a few owners of classics on here but it seems most prefer new to old , even if they are not actually getting something better......

[The Mekon]

[QUOTE]
yes, that's what I reckon is the worth. Maybe a bit more as it is a nice bit of brass. But using the rule that a scope cost increases according to the cube of its size, then the AUD $24,000 8" in Port Elizabeth comes down to a $3000 4" in Brisbane!

Good to see Torana68 throw his 2cents worth in. I used to dream about those AOS reflectors that he has an interest in. I'd like to see through one of the 8" F7 Newtonians they made. With modern eyepieces they would surely give current APOs a good contest.

[col]

Hi John,
I was watching that 4" too. Rather over-restored in my opinion. The 8" Cooke looked more interesting but needed someone with the resources to do it justice. I get the impression the larger the antique scope the smaller the market and hence value.
Cheers, Col

[doppler]

[QUOTE=The Mekon;1218600]

Here's a 12" Astro Optical dob on gumtree

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/forster/miscellaneous-goods/telescope-12-f5-astro-optics/1096765869

[The Mekon]

[QUOTE=doppler;1218612][QUOTE=The Mekon;1218600]



What a shame its not on the Goliath mount!

[torana68]

nice but probably not worth that to me, I do have the mount for it though :) never seen a Goliath in the flesh, either they no longer exist or they are hidden away and being used..... so much stuff gets taken to the tip :(

[ZeroID]

I enjoy that Classic Scopes section over at CN. They obviously see a lot more old scopes than we do.
Recently there was a beautiful Polarex 4" F 16 (?) I think on a classic wooden mount with all the rings and finders in almost mint condition advertised over here. Originally advertised at $4999 it was recently listed again at $2999 then $2500. Market interest is too small over here. I'd love to have it but I can barely afford my current fleet maintenance let alone buying a stunning example of a classic to stand in the lounge. ( It would get used though, much too big for the observatory ).

<sigh>

[torana68]

I see crazy Unitron prices all the time, locals must be getting prices off US sites . The prices are rarely attained over there, also there are the come in sucker prices, examples of which can be found on Ebay ($400 + postage for guide scope rings , still available if you want). Thing is a 60mm is not worth $800 UNLESS , its mint, boxed, on a GEM with drive and with ALL accessories including the camera etc etc, even then its a bit much for the Australian market. Apply the same to bigger ones, Alt Az and no accessories is not worth anywhere near the price of the full set up on a driven GEM. Sure everyone who has something old and nice would like to think its worth a motza but years of watching prices says there isn't the market here that there was OS (was as the prices in the US seem to have fallen). The older reflector market provides much better bang for your $$.

[Kunama]

[QUOTE=doppler;1218612]

I called the owner of that scope today and found out that the astronomy world is indeed a small world. Turns out that the seller is the original owner of my 18" F5.58 Galaxy mirror, having imported it many years ago.

This seller is also selling an orange original C14 at the moment.....

[doppler]

You gotta love that portable mount he has for that C14.

[Kunama]

that cart is a beauty alright!
He is a very experienced astronomer and currently has a 20" F5, 20" F4, 16"F4.5, C14', AOS12" F5 and a few smaller scopes but told me his most used scope is a Meade ETX125PE.

[gts055]

There are extraordinary prices asked for lots of things, but what they actually sell for is often another matter. I like long and short refractors and for light gathering a 20" f5 Obsession dobsonian. I agree short tube refractors are convenient to move, easier to mount, give nice wide fields, and suited to photography. High power viewing with a short tube often means using short focal length eyepieces and focusing is in a very narrow band. Long refractors are to me like V8's, they are lazy and idle along giving high power views with longer focal length eyepieces than a short tube. Focusing is less critical, and depth of field seems greater. Field of view is narrow though and they need a good mount and tripod.
F15, F16 scopes from the 1960's and 1970's are pretty cheap, you get a mount, tripod, eyepieces, and telescope for the cost of a modern 1 1/4" or 2" eyepiece. And, they look like a telescope :) Mark

[torana68]

not only do classics look good they can be very good at planets :) but not everything that's old is classic some old stuff should stay in the attic.....

[torana68]

wondering how many are into classic telescopes on here?

[anj026]

I am interested in classic telescopes but don't really see many over here in WA. I do have an old Jaegers 6" f5 refractor which is great for low power wide field views. I have made my own "classics" in the form of long focal length refractors by buying the lenses and focusers and making the tubes out of plywood.

[alocky]

What do people consider a classic? How old does a classic have to be?
I've got a lovely pair of 4" Unitrons on eq mounts, but they are only used for solar and lunar and are mainly decorations in my library. But definitely 'classics'. My 10" Meade starfinder on the other hand is hardly a classic, but it's old, highly modified and I make it work hard!
An orange tube c8 - that would be a classic?
Interested to hear other people's views.
Cheers,
Andrew

[torana68]

anything popular with a lasting interest and oldish, Antiques have their own group of collectors. As far as Im concerned if its rubbish its rubbish, not a classic, not sure how I would apply that to a Unitron with a dud lens? (maybe just fix it?) so for me its Australian made, quirky home made or quality Japanese.

[doppler]

With cars anything over 25 years old is considered a classic; personally I think pre 80's would apply for telescopes. This was the time when commercial manufacturers like celestron and meade were battling for a market share while smaller manufacturers were struggling to compete with quality products but battling to keep a competitive price.

I think my 1975 cave optical "astrola" 8"f6 eq pier mounted newtonian with tube rotation rings and 240v RA motor drive is a classic in this sense. An orange tube celestron would also fit this category, but my old 10" f4.5 meade star finder "cardboard tube" dob is a functional novelty at best.

Pic of my 8" cave

[torana68]

I think a pile of rubbish is a pile of rubbish no matter how old and shouldn't be classed as "Classic"..... there was some utter rubbish produced from the later 70's and on.
I read on Cloudy Nights that Some older C8s had poor optics, those made from about 1987 - 1990 so Id say the earlier ones are "classics" the later ones "parts" :)
Would some of the newer Takahashi's be classed as classics already? maybe Obsession 'scopes?

[Satchmo]

I'd agree on the Celestrons though its hard to pin down exactly when the good eras were . From what I have seen lately the SCT's coming out of China and the larger ones USA made are pretty good. I bought an orange one in 1979 which was reasonable though a friend who had one from '75 with the much heavier sand cast fork with the holes had superior optics.

I've got a 1000 page history of Celestron on CD which is full of detailed information on the various periods of SCT's and how they were tested . There was a certain jump in consistency when they employed interferometers in the 90's , although all the classic old ones were figured with nothing but a ronchi grating and looking at an artificial star - which in the hands of an honest optician works perfectly well.

One of the worst periods for SCT quality was during Halleys Comet - Celestron could not remotely keep up with orders and put just about anything out the door - I worked for a retailer during that period and we had a star test collimator and I took it upon myself to test and collimate everything I could ....some of those black tube C8's from that era were certainly not diffraction limited or anything like near it.

[ZeroID]

The term 'Classic' is defined by age as for cars eg but there are good 'Classics' and bad of course. You choose ( like any car nut ) what you prefer to collect.
Personally I do like the long f big white refractors, they just seem to embody the 'Classic' theme. Not that I can afford them .... :rolleyes:

(I also like cars of a particular make, next one should be a Mitsi EVO X, not classic but awesome regardless :D )

[Tropo-Bob]

For me, the quality long focus refractors hit the mark. Some of these from even the 1950s can still be found in good condition, whereas reflectors from this period are often very heavy and dated by todays standards.

I have a 60mm Unitron from the early 1970s and still enjoy using it. However, I have long ago traded away the non-parafocal Unitron eyepieces, which all had small fields (under 40 degrees).

So IMHO, there are classic refractors from the past that are arguably well-worth acquiring, but when it comes to eyepieces, the best ones, the future classics have been made in more recent times.

[Satchmo]

I guess you need to define classic from the perspective of classic quality or classic looks.

I used to own a `classic' - a Unitron 4" F15 - an older one with counterweight bar and three massive cases. I parted with it for the same reason that Vixen / Celestron killed Unitron company because it would not move with the times and start producing apo refractors - shorter colour free refrractors that the market was ready for .

The telescope was unweildy , inconvenient to use- it took my 30 minutes to set up and was hard to move around the yard The tripod and fork mount were massive . The contrast was a little poor with the fairly faded Mag flouride coatings . The field of view was narrow and the images fairly dim for deep sky viewing . At powers needed for serious lunar and planetary viewing such as X200 the purple colour fringing was becoming objectionable to me . The 1" eyepieces had a narrow field and lacked any contrast .

I borrowed a newly released 80mm F9 Vixen Flourite refractor to compare side by side and the views of the Moon and Planets and deep sky objects blew me away - crisp , colour free and contrasty . It was so easy to use and much more stable on its much smaller tripod If I had been older and wealthier I would have kept the Unitron as a display scope which would have got my pulse going everytime I laid eyes on it , because owning such a scope was stuff of my boyhood dreams .

Anyway I bought the flourite - stuck the Unitron in the trading post and got $400 for it ( 30 years ago ) and never looked back . It was certainly a `classic' but only from the rose coloured views of my boyhood dreams - not from a later perspective of the evolution of amateur telescopes .

[doppler]

I'll have to stickup for the poor old reflector.

Yes they were very heavy (duty), most had fibreglass tubes not thin light gauge steel, were available with coma free long focal length mirrors, tube rotation rings, and came with a heavy portable pier mount not the light weight tripods that are standard today.

The only real improvement with newer scopes is in the motor drive electronics and even then the motors and gears are a lot more noisy than the old drives. (You can of course "upgrade" your new reflector with a carbon fibre tube, rotation rings and a heavy pier type mount as expensive accessories.)

[Tropo-Bob]

Most of the Australian made ones that I saw in 1960s had heavy metal tubes. Yay to long focal length mirrors though.
The mounts supplied by the Amateur Astronomy Supply company (later transformed into Astro Optical) were made locally here in Cairns by Laurie Hall. He also made the mirror cells. I visited his workshop several times as a teenager in the late 60s, but the engineering went over my head.

As Laurie said to me one when I was enthusing about the latest deep-sky object that I saw: "There are 2 different types of people here. You like looking through telescopes, I like making them."

I did buy an Eight inch F7 reflector in 1970, used it frequently and kept it for about 20 years. It was heavy though (particular the mount), so I purchased a new, 60mm Unitron in 1974 to enable quick viewing sessions, and still find uses for it.

[Satchmo]

Hi Bob

That must have been fascinating . Laurie has had a website but it doesn't seem to have been added to for a number of years - I trust he is still around ?
http://www.turbofast.com.au/astrotel/index.html

Yes the reflectors of Hall era , from Amateur Astronomers Supply Co. were also a boyhood dream along with the Unitron 4" refractors . An 8" F7 always seemed attainable. I bought my second grinding kit to make one but decided on an F8 as it would be for a Dobsonian .

[doppler]

My bad, I was generalising a bit there, and my practical experience with astronomy only starts in the early 80's. I have a few catalogues and brochures from the late 70's and early 80's that I was referencing(Meade, celestron, cave optical and astro optical). I also have a samson mount (a resto project for later) and an old astro optical 8"f6 dob.

Thanks for the link Mark, http://www.turbofast.com.au/astrotel/index.html (http://www.turbofast.com.au/astrotel/index.html) some real usefull info there when I get around to restoring the samson.

[Tropo-Bob]

I lasted visited Laurie about 2 years ago and he was in poor health, but still living at home with his wife. I believe he is still alive and would now be in his early Nineties.

[torana68]

great bloke and a great engineer, I was writing to him for a while some time back to pick his brain :) he also made mirror grinding/polishing machines and gemstone machine's.

[Satchmo]

He had a great input into the history of Australian amateur astronomy for 20 odd years . Think about it - up to the late 50's Esdales Scientific Supply was the main source of telescopes in the country. The amateur aspired to owning a 4" to 6" refractor but probably never did . In the 1960's a 6" refractor was something like $3000 - the cost of a luxury car . A japanese made 6" reflector on an inadequate mount also cost a fortune ( A friend of mine bought a Tasco 6" catadioptric in the 70's for $3000 ).

Then Eric Whitcombe comes along in the early 60's and gets stuck into making mirrors and Hall making mounts and by the late 60's Amataur Astromomers supply Co offered 6 to 12" Newtonians and even a 12.5" Cassegrain on a massive mount ...and all at pretty reasonable prices - and they actually sold thousands of them . Aussie amateurs were spoilt for choice . As far as I know Hall mounts were used up into the late 70's and then the Samson mount came in - I don't know if Laurie was involved with that but I know the chief engineer for those was Alex Sterne in Melbourne .

The introduction of the C8 in the mid seventies spelled the end of the rein of the Newtonian at the time . I remember in the late 70's everyone I knew in the ASNSW literally owned a C8 - they were such a revolution in portability . The dobsonian and of course the low cost chinese imports took the Newtonian back up the ladder for the average astronomer - they undercut the price of a C8 by a factor of 4 !

[torana68]

where are they now? Id like to have a play with one of the early ones.

[Ric]

I have a C8 76 model orange tube, still a great scope to use although I have retired the original eyepieces which left a bit to be desired.

[torana68]

is it a "Celestron Pacific" product?

[Ric]

Hi Roger

Yes it's a Celestron Pacific model, bought it from Astro Optical when they were in Crows Nest.

Cost me $995 back in 76. That took about 12 months of weekend work and the saving of every cent I could earn back then. :D

[torana68]

nice, from what I read that should be a good one :)

[Kunama]

[QUOTE=doppler;1218612]

I think it is actually a 12.5", according to the seller an excellent mirror.
It is a full thickness mirror.
He is looking to get $600 for the scope.
He has had several offers falling short of his target.
Would make a beautiful restoration project for a classic enthusiast.

[torana68]

I have an offer sitting there, but $600 plus another $500 for recoat (he tells me it needs doing) ,transport to get it or a 2 day drive, plus strip and paint all adds up and doesn't suit my budget :( Id love to do it though. (I can have a brand new Bintel 12" landed on my door for less, just for comparison, and yes I know there is a very good chance the optics will be better)

[Tropo-Bob]

I had one of those 12.5 Astro-Optical Dobs. (It was what I replaced my 8inch reflector with). I really enjoyed it for a long time (15 years?-mirror was recoated), then I become older and it seemed to become heavier. I ended up selling it and replacing with a GSO 12inch, which seemed to have better optics (or was that just a thinner, more rapidly cooling mirror?). The GSO was much lighter and easier to assemble, but still took up a lot of floor space, so I again sold after about 5 years and now prefer refractors.

[torana68]

Don't 'spose you have a photo of the 12.5? did it have the wooden mirror cell?

[Tropo-Bob]

Sorry, no photos. Yes, a wooden mirror cell that used to detach and bolt on to a wooden surrounds to the end of the tube via wing-nuts.
The mirror (and cell) would normally be kept in a large wooden box and only attached when the scope was to be used. It kept the weight down, but added to the set-up time.
From memory, the scope cost about $2,700 in 1988.

[Satchmo]

I wonder if it was one of my mirrors as I worked there from 1985 - 1988.

We were using Schott glass blanks at this stage - 305 mm diameter with slope angle sides ( rear diameter was slightly less) .

Yes those 50mm thick 12" were poor for cooling - I think 35mm more common these days makes much better sense. The 12" metal tubes were literally a two person lift and the 10" you had to be fit. Mirror cells for 12" at AOS were always wooden as they never had any castings made for cells in that size. The old metal tubes did not translate well onto dobs due to the weight .

That Gumtree 12" certainly looks like it could have been AOS from the knurled nuts on the spider , but the focusser is not original and the Dob mount is home made job. It doubtless needs a recoat as AOS mirror did not have an overcoat - that will set you back at least $500.. I'd probably rate that scope as a case of if you are prepared to bring a ute and take it away its yours . I tried to sell a 10" F6 AOS dob in mint showroom condition here , which needed a recoat and didn't get any offers.

[Tropo-Bob]

I tracked down the quote for this scope. It was dated in November 1989 so probably not your mirror.

Funny to see your description of the scope. I thought that I had joined the big league after buying it. My first, very humble scope (30x30) was a Xmas present in 1965; so I had a very long apprenticeship.

Amazingly, some now begin with a 12inch telescope!

[torana68]

The 12.5 DK (AOS) I have is horrendously heavy......but when it was new it would have been extremely impressive as well as expensive, weight probably not an issue as it would have lived in some sort of observatory (if you had that much money to spend you'd have somewhere to put it)

[chris lewis]

2 years ago I picked up a classic long tube 40 year old Japanese refractor.
It is a rare SYC Yamamoto 108/1600 refractor on a pedestal mount.
The optics are the same as the equally rare Tasco 20TE professional scope.
I sold my SW Equinox 120 ED on a HEQ5 mount to help acquire it.
The sell / buy costs worked out about the same.
I have no regrets in doing so. It gives excellent images up to 400x on steady nights. The on axis resolution is sharper then the ED120, its is only slightly dimmer. There is minimal CA even on hi magnifications.
Yes it is a large scope and it require 3 trips to mount safely.
The build quality is amazing and it looks like optical art. A scope like this will hold its value but it is my 'retirment' scope and as such will keep it indefinelty.

[doppler]

Wow that's a great looking scope. Has it been restored or just really well looked after?

[chris lewis]

Hi, it was really looked after well. The optics dealer who I got it from had it in dry storage for decades. All it needeed was a polish and lube. The only really upgrade was re-spraying the lower leg extensions matt black. It is actually more impressive in real life then the photos show. It weighs around 90 Kgs. and in the first photo it is about 7ft. above the ground. It takes 1.25in EP's. The mount movements are superb. I keep it in the lounge often where it certainly has that 'wow' factor. I use it with the kids neighbors during summer for mainly planetary and lunar observations.
Photo below with understanding wife !

Chris

[Tropo-Bob]

I remember seeing the similar version in a 1960's Tasco booklet about using telescopes. It certainty looks great and I would love to look through it... but 90kgs: Ouch!

[torana68]

for those into nice old stuff go to Australia Astronomy buy and sell for what could be the ultimate vintage set up (forgetting Japanese 'scopes for a min)
16 inch F6 plus 10 inch F6, 6 inch F5 etc Observatory Newtonians - 'Cave' (USA)

http://www.astrobuysell.com/au/propview.php?view=2810

[doppler]

That's a big backyard setup, with an equally big price tag I would imagine....way out of my budget :(

[torana68]

would be nice to own it :)

[alocky]

I looked at that and thought it looked just like Peter Andersen's setup out the back of Mt Cootha in Brisbane. Last time I was there was 32 years ago when he very generously allowed the AAQ to have a star party in his backyard!
How 'bout that, I can't remember my own phone number, but I can remember that...

[Satchmo]

I 'd guess that in the bottom of that closed tube lays a 3" thick United Lens 16" mirror blank. With a lot more knowledge of good telescope design now , you'd have to be prepared to do some serious work to make that perform well using lots of ventilation holes and a fair bit of horsepower in the cooling .

[torana68]

3'" is a big hunk of glass.....anyone ever see an AOS 14"? were they sold complete or just mirrors?

[Tropo-Bob]

The 14" AO Dobs were sold complete (for just about $3400 if my memory is correct). I only saw the photos in the adverts, but their mounts looked flimsy to me.