And they wonder why people want them to control their gun laws!!

[Exfso]

This is a classic...

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/30290418/gunfight-reenactor-shoots-self-at-ok-corral (http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/30290418/gunfight-reenactor-shoots-self-at-ok-corral)

[troypiggo]

"Curtis is doing good..." <grammar cringe/>

[LewisM]

The intelligentsia ratio in the USA is very depressing... one sometimes wonders if they actually got to the Moon on a bullet fired from a cannon ala Man in the Moon...

[speach]

Well I thought that Americans had **** for brains, but now I know.

[speach]

I'm really starting to wonder if they landed on the moon, doesn't look as if they have the intellect to-do it.

[GeoffW1]

C'mon,

We aren't doing so well here we can poke fun, I don't think, not when a 15 yr old can obtain a gun and shoot up a police station.

[LewisM]

Some believe the gun laws in Australia worked. Yes, they DID for law abiding citizens.

Laws mean NOTHING to the black market and terror rings - if anything, they ENHANCE them. The amount of machine guns, unlicensed handguns, semi-automatic rifles and heavy ordnance I have been offered in my years of firearm collecting is bewildering. The Police know it, the Government knows it - they just don't want Joe Blogs and Joanna Blogs knowing. Let alone the Anti-Gun establishments knowing the truth.

I could go out tomorrow and purchase any number of illegal handguns.

Shooting someone followed by a by-stander during a re-enactment on the other hand is several shades of sheer DUMB. There are safety parameters and rules in place at re-enactments, one of which is that someone visibly checks for either a loaded (as in projectile) firearm, and also checks to make sure none of the re-enacters actually are possessing projectiles. How these safety parameters were ignored or overlooked speaks for itself, late arrival or NOT.

[clive milne]

Being that, given a choice of close to 20 million people we could find no better candidate than Tony to govern this country (two years ago) I wouldn't be so bold as to crow about the quality of our gene pool

nor levels of discernment for that matter.


(unless of course the system is corrupt.... say it aint so?)

[Peter Ward]

I have spent a good deal of my working life on lay-overs in the USA (pushing 28 years now).

Most Americans I meet are good mannered, well intentioned and well educated.

I'd also have to observe they have more freedom to do as "responsible adults" as they please.....unlike nanny-state Oz...but there are consequences...sadly, their lunatic fringe can on do kill themselves and others....as do ours...but in our case, more likely with a blunt instrument or cutting edge.

To label the general US populace as somewhat dim....well...I can't agree.

Every society has its rednecks and bogans.

But they have NASA, JPL, NOAA, Boeing, Lockheed, IBM, Intel, AMD, Microsoft, Apple, Astro-Physics, Software Bisque, RCOS, ...... you get the drift.

We dig up dirt and gas and sell it to the Chinese at a serious discount.

In the land of Oz:
70% of police resources (perhaps more) are devoted to fining the general populace, and you are guilty until proved innocent on most traffic matters.

The government can read your (e-mail) and web browsing habits without a warrant

In Oz only the Police, Army and crooks have guns.
Yet the Homicide rate has not fallen.

Soooo.... one live round made it to the OK Corral re-enactment.

Bugger.

[Kunama]

Six rounds actually Peter, when the man's revolver was checked there was one live and five spent cases...... two rounds were found in nearby buildings, could have been much worse.

But I agree with much of what you say........ seems that the average Australian is likely to possess very noticeable Bogan tendencies.....

[Peter Ward]

Correct me if I am wrong, but blanks also leave a spent case.

BTW my childhood toy (and much adored) spud-gun (a pop gun that, when pressed into a spud, popped small pieces of potato ) is now deemed a "prohibited weapon"

Seriously??? And some think the Americans are nuts?

[Kunama]

Yes blanks also leave a casing, but that was not apparently the case here, as they found two of the rounds had hit buildings and caused an injury to a woman. The other two rounds were not located. The fifth round was recovered from the victims groin...... The sixth round would have fired on the next pull of the trigger... Accidents do happen!

[Peter Ward]

A forensic "fair 'nuff"

I've met with and talked to Aldrin and Sheppard (at length).

Sure the USA has social problems, but they also went to the moon and back....

P.S.
More recently, Pluto and beyond

[Kunama]

Thanks very much to a German chap ....... WvB. :thumbsup:

[Peter Ward]

Oh dear. That's just glib nonsense.

Goddard pioneered the essential groundwork.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Peter


Gotta agree.
The most dangerous thing about owning a spud gun ( and yes we had em as kids, along with air rifles, slingshots and crab spears ), was facing the wrath of mum, when she found out what we had done to her spuds.:help:

Andrew

[blink138]

perhaps this can explain it?
nuff said!!

[blindman]

"I could go out tomorrow and purchase any number of illegal handguns. "
Really?
You should work for police force, then.

[alocky]

And following Peter's comment - here in Australia both the guns and cheeses are prohibited, although it is possible to license a handgun here. But you cannot have unpasteurised cheese regardless of what club of like-minded cheese fans you belong to.
cheers,
Andrew.

[AndrewJ]

Or unpasteurised milk.
I quite like the fact that if one person has an adverse affect from eating an unpasteurised product, its a national tragedy that requires banning the product, but if someone has a bad outcome from a vaccination, thats just bad luck and the national good over rules it.
Who is making the money out of these decisions???

Andrew

PS, im not anti vaccination, just pro choice.

[Kunama]

And unfortunately he passed away long before the space program began in earnest. Where would his fantastic achievements be were it not for WvB, the architect of the Saturn V.

Nuff said .... ;)

[N1]

Let's just agree it was a team effort, eh? :)

[LewisM]

Simply put - no V2, no Apollo 11, at least not for many more years.

Look how much capturing the V2's and several German rocket scientists did for both the USA and the USSR. Propelled them YEARS ahead in research and development.

[Kunama]

I do indeed agree it was one of the greatest team efforts of mankind.
Given the time scale set by JFK, their achievements were amazing.
Risks were also very high as the speed of the projects meant short cuts needed to be made.
Unfortunately it took the tragic loss of the Apollo 1 crew to change the 'culture' somewhat and I think that led to the ultimate success of Apollo 11
and ability to effect the rescue of the crew of 13 after Jack Swigert uttered: " Houston, we've had a problem here" .

The sheer number of people involved in the Gemini and Apollo programs all round the globe is mind boggling.

Anyway we're drifting off the topic here.......

We now return you to our schedules program: The Gunfight at OK Corral

[casstony]

The vast majority needs to be vaccinated in order to maintain suppression of diseases like polio. The risks of vaccination are far less than the risk associated with the disease.

[casstony]

I'm sure your statement is tongue in cheek. I know and have met many Americans; in general they're much like Australians, perhaps a little more fearful on average as a result of living in a more dog-eat-dog society.

I suspect ordinary people all over the world have a lot in common, it's more the leaders that give countries a bad name.

[N1]

Ha! Pro choice. Excellent. Now I know what to tell the cop next time he pulls me over for riding a bike without a helmet (foam hats unsuitable for Australian sun, regular hats much better). :thumbsup:

Sort-of on topic: Another very real achievement of space exploration for everyday life is HACCP. Had this been applied before the gun fight no harm would have been done.

[Kunama]

Very well said!
Don't think they had time for hazard analysis.......

[bugeater]

Is your point that we shouldn't have gun control laws? The simple reality is that you are vastly less likely to be killed by a firearm in Australia than you are in the USA. Is that due to the laws? Don't know, but it's hard to imagine that's not a factor.

When I was in the US in June, I was quite surprised by the amount of murders and gun related incidents that were reported on the news there. One was due to someone going to a wedding and accidentally discharging a handgun. :screwy:

[AndrewJ]

Yep, no sanity in any of it. And if you have a religious reason for not wearing a helmet, thats OK????
If they were genuinely worried about saving human lives "for our benefit"
they would also ban rock fishing, anyone owning a small boat to go fishing, horse riding. Lots more deaths there, but "relatively" nothing gets done.
Maybe ban private ownership of cars. Only professional drivers will be allowed to operate a vehicle????
Its amazing how the propensity to ban stuff is inversely proportional to the amount of money that would be lost.

Andrew ( still pro choice :D )

[casstony]

I'm working on a Nanny State Definition, how's this:

a place where things are going so swimmingly well that lawmakers have nothing better to do than focus on minor infringements and Citizens have so little to worry about they sit around complaining about the laws. :D

[deanm]

"If they were genuinely worried about saving human lives "for our benefit"
they would also ban rock fishing, anyone owning a small boat to go fishing, horse riding".

The principle is not to ban activities, just to reduce or protect against trauma/deaths.

Ride a bike or a horse? Wear a helmet.
(Rock/fishing? Wear a life jacket.

Pretty simple: why should taxpayers have to pay your hospital bills because you chose not to wear protective gear?

If you are irresponsible, get p!ssed & crash your car, your insurance company won't pay. If you also weren't wearing a seatbelt, why should the rest of us pick up the cost of your rehabilitation?

Dean

[AndrewJ]

This diversion in the thread started re the "banning" of unpasteurised cheese and milk, then just wandered a bit more.;)


By the same token, why should taxpayers pay for people who are in hospital because of smokes, drink or drugs?
Why should my taxes go to looking after someone elses kids???

Im not suggesting a dog eat dog society,
just one where arbitrary bans are not put on peoples rights to take minimal personal risks if they so choose.
Anyway this is now getting way off course as i dont think allowing people to go around doing reenactments with loaded guns is a freedom people should have:D

Andrew

[Kunama]

and the sadness continues

a 4 year old child murdered in a road rage incident in good ol' USofA.

Maybe they really are that fn hopeless !!!

[Peter Ward]

Have to say there has been a lack of critical analysis over the gun ownership question.

Switzerland effectively has 100% gun ownership.

Seriously.

"Although guns are more available to the Swiss, Swiss gun culture is more authoritarian than America's. Gun ownership is a mandatory community duty, not a matter of individual free choice. In Switzerland, defence of the nation is the responsibility of every male citizen"

Yet we simply do not see gun crime or shootings in Switzerland as we see in the USA, and to a much lesser extent Australia.

Switzerland however, has a social welfare and mental health care system par excellence. If you are a nut, you don't get a gun.

In Oz we are anything but pro-choice.

I rather resent some bureaucracy telling me what may or may not do as it is "too scary or risky"....yet by some miracle, despite growing up in an era where you could climb trees, ride a push-bike to school without a helmet, play with fire-works, slingshots and spud guns etc, etc, I made it to adulthood.

All risk or even perceived risk has been legislated away with a corresponding loss of freedom, seemingly without even a whimper from your average punter.

One of the most asinine of these was when the (then) premier of NSW proclaimed laser pointers to be "a weapon of mass murder!"

Oh...pleeeease...this was pure BS, yet, time and again we are stuck with ill-conceived, restrictive and moronic legislation.

[rally]

Marty,

I think Lewis' point is that for the most part, the only people affected by the gun laws are the law abiding gun owners - people who are already honest and unlikely to ever commit a real firearms offence.

That means that there was little change to real public safety - just a perception.

And Yes ! I agree as I am sure most do - the USA is a complete basket case with respect to their whole firearms scenario - something that is enshrined in their bill of rights and seemingly ingrained into their way of life and social attitudes - so unlikely to ever go away.

The trouble with our gun policies and law enforcement is that thay had and continue to have zero effect on gangs and criminals, who continue to freely own, trade, import and make illegal firearms.

These people are and always have been the real problem in the community and nothing that was done affects them to any great extent.
If anything it creates a lucrative black market business opportunity for them that might not otherwise exist.

They dont care about the rules, they dont care that the guns are illegal, they dont bother with licencing or firearm registration or proper storage and they certainly dont care who they sell them to or the mental state of the people who are using them.

That is the huge anomaly with the current firearms framework and the reason why most firearms owners are unhappy with the significant burdens and extra costs placed on them when its known and accepted by them (and every Police Commissioner in the country) that it doesnt stop the very people that it needs to stop.

Even if they outlawed all firearms tomorrow and stripped every gun from every law abiding gun owner tomorrow - it would actually have absolutely zero effect on them !

I have spoken to people I believed to be quite reliable that told me they could get an illegal weapon including a handgun within a couple of hours.
Many years ago I knew of a young guy who was being trained just out of the city using machine guns and he subsequently went to fight in Bosnia/Serbia,
This was an organised program and he was just one of many young guys.
He told me himself after he got back from his first visit when he was then enlisted by the Army Reserves to help train Reserves as they didnt have anyone with any combat experience !

The fact that the death rate by firearm was already decreasing in Australia and most other Western countries for many years before the buyback and that the same rate of reduction continued to occurr in Australia after the buyback and that the same rates of reduction also continued to fall at the same rate (as here) in NZ, Canada and other countries much like ours - that DID NOT implement a buyback nor impose similar firearms restrictions - indicates that the buyback had nothing to do with it whatsoever.
This is the finding of a number of papers produced for the government.

The buy back did not result in less firearms as many seem to think - there are more firearms in the public domain now than there was before - all it did is legalise the firearms and remove a couple of types of firearms from general legal use - noteably fully automatic, military style weapons and pump action shotguns.
It pushed illegal weapons deeper into criminal hands, has created a nightmarish situation full of restrictions, burdens of administrative red tape and ridiculous ambiguities and anomalies that vary from state to state and still costs state taxpayers $10-100M's per annum to maintain.

What it did was use a vast amount of taxpayer funds to pay top market prices for old guns (often not in working condition at all), that in most cases got converted into brand new "legal" guns !

However, the buyback did impose greater control on firearm storage and ammunition storage and its believed that is responsible for slight reduction in suicide rates due to firearms.
And for both those reasons its a good thing, but not for much else.
But it should be noted that the suicide rates overall didnt change and that the rates for other suicide methods increased.

So mental health and not firearms is the real cause of suicide by firearm just as criminal intent and criminal behaviour is the reason for criminal activity involving firearms - not the firearms themselves.

Canada did have non restrictive firearm licencing and registration laws - after years of operation they deemed it a waste financial resources with no gain and its been repealed - no increase in firearms crime or death rates occurred.

. . . and before anyone accuses me of being a gun toting nutter - I am not ! - I have shot less in my entire life than most target shooters do in one target practice session. But I do support ISSF Junior 10m Target Air Rifle Shooting - the Commonwealth and Olympic Games discipline.
I do not own a high powered or centrefire rifle and never have.

Its just a stupid state of affairs that seems to be continually twisted about for purely political reasons and thats prompted my comment.

Rally

[LewisM]

Well put Rally. I was going to write a reply, but you covered it.

[casstony]

There are numerous risky activities one can legally engage in today, including the hang gliding and dirt bike riding I did in my youth. We just held my Son's 13th birthday party at a tree adventure park, kids 20 metres off the ground flying along cables between the trees; they did have to wear helmets and harnesses, but that's probably a good thing. http://treesadventure.com.au/glen-harrow-park/

Time to get that glass half full I think ;)

[andyc]

Jim Jefferies nails the gun argument (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OZIOE6aMBk)

[Peter Ward]

No argument from me.

I have no desire to have a firearm in my house.

But I can't even have an airsoft (i.e. toy) pistol or even a slingshot to keep the Indian Myna birds at bay...without having a full (read expensive) firearm license...due the risk I'll then hold up a 7-11/rob banks/declare Jihad

I guess there are already enough kitchen knives deployed at 7-11's :shrug:

BTW, I'm also prohibited from having a tube of toothpaste larger than 100ml in my carry-on/overnight bag when I go to work. Apparently, even though I'm flying the plane, the IED risk is too great. :rolleyes:

Just more Nanny-state BS.

[Exfso]

Holy crap nearly created a firestorm...:P

[Kunama]

It is not that it is an IED risk, just that excessively white teeth could cause reflections off the instruments, especially the EFIS and spitting the paste out the windows could block the pitot tubes ......... nuff said ;)

[speach]

The comment was not directed at an American but the population as a whole. They appear ultra right wing and not very bright. Take the health system reform that Obama is trying to instigate, seem to me a good reform but there is over whelming right wing opposition to it. Religion, they have a very high church attendance but seem to disregard: turn the other cheek, thou shall not kill, do not covert your neighbours goods, need I go on? And lastly who in there right mind goes into a re-enactment of a gun fight with LIVE rounds in there gun. As I said s**t for brains.

[AussieTrooper]

The cat is out of the bag in the US. Gun laws would achieve nothing but make it harder for those doing the right thing.
For comparison, Mexico has very strict laws, but has a murder rate far higher than the US, and in both countries the vast majority of gun murders are drug crime related, not some kid going nuts at his college.

Australia never really had this problem.
Both Bryant and Knight had already been identified as having mental health issues, and should never have been allowed access to firearms of any kind at all. The failing was, and still is, the mental health system.

[casstony]

Human populations anywhere are very easily manipulated, a fact that is demonstrated repeatedly through history. Any country can be made to look bad by it's politicians, bankers, corporations or powerful interest groups.
However if you travel to the US and meet the people they really are much the same as Australians.

[Kunama]

Quite right Tony, unfortunately the media have no reason to publicise the lives of everyday Americans who, like us, are just going about the business of living normal lives.

Much of the issue is the way media beat up stories to sell their wares. Without publicity many of these horrible events may not happen. The recent trend is for people to post their rants on twitter/facebook etc and then go out to do their crime or to film their crime and then post it on Youtube.

There have been numerous incidents where someone has been ridiculed on social media and has then taken their revenge on those who posted about them.

The older I get the less I want to see "news", Twitter, Facebook etc.
I am even getting tired of these debates on General Chat here ;)

[AussieTrooper]

So true. The bad press we see and hear from them is actually a *positive* aspect of the country. Their media is free to tell the tale without fear of retribution. If this went on in North Korea, you'd never even know.
The exact same vested interests that give the US a bad name operate here too, just on a smaller scale.

[el_draco]

Well, maybe he wont breed anymore.

[Herra_Kuulapaa]

I thought not to participate in this, just being the new guy on this forum you know. And I take no part in politics. But I've seen some guns and even shot with couple of them.

I have snapped a few images too:
http://www.kuulapaa.com/Duallight/Lahti_L-35_2_1200.jpg

[Kunama]

Great shot HK !
Haven't seen a Lahti 35 in a long time.

[jenchris]

The worst shots at my pistol club in Brisbane were policemen and women.
Behind every door in Switzerland is an army issue gun. I don't read about mayhem on the streets of Geneva.
It's not the guns that make people shoot people. It's stupid people who believe that a gun makes them stand taller.

[AndrewJ]

That said, we also need to ensure our own media, whilst having the same freedom, actually gives a true and balanced view.
On the ABC ( who should know better ) news tonight, a reporter stood up in the location where the police/army are trying to track down the father/son on the run. He stated that the police had recovered a bullet from a police car that was shot at in NSW.
The bullet was determined to have come from a 308 hunting rifle, that could "put a bullet through a tree trunk from a couple of kilometers away".
Good way to put unnecessary fear into all the weekenders up in the region.

Andrew

[xelasnave]

I want 2 50cal. auto hand guns for protect from bears and road signs.

[jenchris]

I've owned handguns in 22 38 357 44 magnum 45 acp.
I've owned rifles in 22 223 243 308 30-06
Odd, I've never felt the urge to go out on a rampage or even point one at someone else.
I've fired over the years 10s of thousands of rounds. Nearly every one has hit the intended target .
Why did I need to give up my rifles and guns?
If I must wear a helmet when riding a bike, why couldn't I even purchase a bullet proof vest for when shooting?
Control is the answer. Nothing to do with safety.
Until Port Arthur, it was a right to own a gun in oz. Hell I had an l1a1(slr).
I also had one in the services.

[pmrid]

I agree. I too have spent long periods working in the US and in close contact with people at all levels. I found them polite, educated and interested. A few bogans, yes, but you only need to stand on a street corner in any Australian CBD to see that we too have our share.

It's been said that Americans travel badly - they become loud, rude and demanding. That's a stereotype that does a lot of injustice to the majority who are not like that at all. But these days, if you travel anywhere in the world, you will find people of all races being rude, demanding, shrill, thoughtless, aggressive etc etc etc. Including Australians.

It would be nice if it were otherwise. But it ain't.

Peter

[AussieTrooper]

Good luck with that. The anti-gun lobby rarely has trouble getting air time, and it's generally the only side of the argument you'll hear.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Ben

Agreed ( re needing luck ), but this wasnt a gun lobbyist, it was a ( supposedly unbiased ) ABC reporter flippantly sprouting obviously incorrect data, i suspect through ignorance, coupled with the current dumbing down practice of needing to compare something to something else so its exciting, and we understand.
Bit like describing a flood using olympic swimming pools, vs cubic metres per second, or the weight an aircraft can lift using indian elephants vs kilograms etc

Andrew

[AussieTrooper]

I'd like to see a non 'high powered' rifle mentioned for once, or at the very least, ask a reporter what their definition of one is.

[LewisM]

Don't forget Assault Rifles.- anything black is an assault rifle.

[clive milne]

Black it may be, but I'm not sure Malcolm Turnbull's soul qualifies as an assault rifle... although it is not far off in an allegorical sense.

[AndrewJ]

And heres the ammo. Yummmmmmmmmm
I always wondered why they had been removed from the shelves

Andrew