Downgrading from a Tak FSQ85 to a Espirit 80. Am I crazy?(Decision made keeping FSQ)

[jwoody]

Hello
In order to raise funds for a KAF 8300 mono (most likely a QHY9) camera I am thinking of selling my Takahashi FSQ85 and instead using a Skywatcher Esprit 80ED.
Am I nuts?
The 80ed comes with the doublet field flattener and whilst a skywatcher is no Tak I believe that it is a pretty good little scope.
Thoughts?

Thank you
Jeremy

[Logieberra]

You'll miss the Tak :(
And all to wind up with a cheapy QHY...
I'd hold off.

[glend]

Imho the Explore Scientific ED80 APO Triplet is a better buy, and ES make a nice flattener for it with no reduction.

[Somnium]

keep the Tak, find other ways to get the money together for the ccd, go without coffee for a while, beg or borrow. there are better ways than selling such a nice scope

[LewisM]

What Logan and Aidan said.

Also think a bot more on CCD choice.... 8300 chip yes, QHY....well...

SBIG and Atik 8300 chipped cameras are well priced and hassle free.

[Camelopardalis]

Regardless of what the brand snobs here say, you're unlikely to notice the difference between the FSQ85 and the Esprit.

But I'd doubt you'd make enough cash in the sale to achieve your goal. Hold tight and raise the funds another way.

[LewisM]

Dunk is right on a few things -

A new QHY9 is $3000

A new Esprit 80 is $1849

$4849 total, without post.

Most I have seen a 2nd hand FSQ85 go for is $3500.

And you won't get any gains using an Esprit 80 over the FSQ 85.

Keep what you have, find another way if you can. Sell the Mak and the RC6

[Logieberra]

That's a bit harsh? The FSQs have near perfect colour correction and importantly - an inherently flat field - meaning no fiddly adapters needed for perfect spacing of an external flattener. That matters. Check out some of the excellent shots done by Peter Ward and others with the BabyQ:-

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=105036

[LewisM]

The FSQ85 performs magnificently.

I have also seen some VERY good shots from the Esprit 80 and 100.

[Octane]

You will miss those tiny pinpoint stars if you do get rid of the FSQ.

But, then again, all stars do is get in the way of nebulae. :P

H

[Slawomir]

I thought stars are a vital stage in otherwise meaningless lives of nebulae so that suitable conditions for life to evolve can be manufactured eventually allowing intellectual animals to invent means for photographing the nebulae! ;)

[Camelopardalis]

Why is it harsh? :confused2:

And how difficult is it it to attach a flattener to a scope? The flattener that the Esprit comes with screws on to the rear of the scope. If anyone in this game lacks the ability to thread on an accessory, then they're not going to get very far :P

Btw, I never said the FSQ85 wasn't a great scope. But really, is it 2-3x better than an 80mm Esprit? :shrug:

I've seen excellent images from both scopes...

[SpaceNoob]

Only so far you can polish a turd.... just saying...

[glend]

Brand Snobs eh? Just can't resist stirring the pot here....are people that buy Tak's or Tele Vue's really going to lower themselves to the level of the Proletariat just to save some money? They buy those brands to differentiate themselves, and because they can afford to, which is differentiation in itself. Performance differences which are undetectable to 99% of users are irrelevant to the elites (or those that aspire to the ellusive 1%). So even selling a lower end Tak to finance an alternative will, to them, always be unacceptable - the answer, of course, is to spend more money to stay elite.:lol:

Want perfect colours without the need for expensive "near perfect correction" just get a Newt. Pin point stars, and perfect colour, a Mak-Newt.

[SpaceNoob]

There's nothing elite or 1% between the two scopes discussed here.

[Camelopardalis]

That's the problem with a bad case of brandsnobitis, Glen...those that suffer, make bold claims to support their more expensive purchase but don't generally back it with empirical evidence :D

[LewisM]

Freud would have had a field day.... anyone want to whip it out and empirically compare? :P

Yes Dunk, there is loads of empirical data out there on the optical quality of the Taks and the Esprits.

Esprit 80 - MANY samples:

http://interferometrie.blogspot.com.au/2014/08/80400-esprit-test-reports.html

Esprit 100:

http://interferometrie.blogspot.com.au/

And the Tak FSQ-85EDX:

http://r2.astro-foren.com/index.php/de/9-beitraege/01-aeltere-berichte-auf-rohr-aiax-de-alles-ueber-apos/95-a076-takahashi-fsq-85-ed-petzval-system

Call it a tie! Yes, the Esprits are good.

The only reason I chose the FSQ-106 over the Esprit 100 or 120 was mounting considerations and my desire for an inbuilt flattener that did NOT need spacing (the Sharpstar/TS/Stellarvue 100Q was also in contention but this scope is NOT a good performer). Even SW must consider the FSQ great considering how many design features they copied from the FSQ into the Esprits (capstan's Wheel, sliding dew shield style, focuser lock etc).

I would say yes, the Esprits are well polished - the Strehl and wave figures prove it. Polished turds they are NOT - polished gems I would say.

The Chinese are catching up fast - they realise second best is no longer acceptable to many - not merely the elite. The Esprits represent significant value for money, and perform as well as many of the recognised top shelf scopes.

The Esprits have their flaws (copying Tak's KNOWN flaws was an odd decision!), but every scope does. Why we cannot discuss flaws, errors, omissions and foibles of scopes without reverting to condescending back-chat is churlish.

Would I complement my Tak FSQ-106N with an Esprit 80? Most probably, yes, if I felt the need.

[Slawomir]

Interesting reports, thank you Lewis.

I have quickly made a rough comparison (see the attached files) using data from here: http://www.airylab.fr/AirylabUS/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=57 (http://www.airylab.fr/AirylabUS/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=57)

The website did not have a report for Esprit, thus I used data from the report for Skywatcher's Equinox, but of course Esprit, being more expensive and more refined than Equinox, should yield better results.

The reason why I am interested in this discussion is that even with narrowband imaging, light at a range of wavelengths and with longer exposures will slowly leak through a filter, in particular around bright stars, creating halos and enlarging stars to some degree. I have noticed that with my ED doublet and 3nm filters. And although I am not in a rush, I have been looking at possible reasonable future replacement for my TS doublet.

Going back to the original question, if one is after the best possible astro-images, then perhaps FSQ might be better to some degree (than Esprit). But whether Jeremy’s mount (HEQ5) will allow to fully capitalise on FSQ’s excellent optics – I do not know.

[LewisM]

Fantastic Slawomir! URAH! Nothing like fact over fiction, BUT, you will need to incorporate specific Esprit performance for an accurate analysis and comparison. The Equinox ED is quite different.

[LewisM]

Try the Esprit 150 data Slaw: http://airylab.net/contenu/mesures/astro/rapport%202012-03001.pdf

FSQ-106EDXIII:
http://www.airylab.com/contenu/mesures/astro/rapport%202014-20002-a.pdf

FSQ-106ED:

http://airylab.net/contenu/mesures/astro/rapport%202014-41002.pdf

And FSQ-85EDX:

http://www.airylab.com/contenu/mesures/astro/rapport%202014-08001-a.pdf

[Slawomir]

The comparison is just out of my interest- I have not had a privilege of using neither of the two scopes, and I also thought that due to lack of data, 80mm Equinox would be more relevant to Jeremy's original question than 150mm Esprit. I am sure that 80 mm Esprit is a great performer, and, as I hinted before, might yield very comparable if not identical results to FSQ85 if both scopes are mounted on HEQ5 (decent but not ideal tracking) and used with 8300 chip (somehow undersampling at that focal length).

[LewisM]

The 8300 was really ideal on my FSQ-85's (I had 2).

I consider the FSQ-106N portable enough, especially with the Vixen GPD2, to not need to consider a separate travel scope, otherwise I MAY have gotten another FSQ-85 or Esprit 80. The 106N covers all my needs (which are actually few)

[Camelopardalis]

All good stuff, thanks for mud-free info Lewis :thumbsup:

[Logieberra]

By all means, discuss your personal experiences with the FSQ and Skywatcher scopes, but it's unnecessary to label people as 'brand snobs'. Play nice. :thumbsup:

[Camelopardalis]

Awwww c'mon...the OP labelled the thread "Downgrading from FSQ85 to Esprit 80", so it was playful from the start :P and I can't think of a better label :lol:

[Logieberra]

:)

[RobF]

While we're brand snobbing, I've got a QHY9 on a Tak, and frankly the 9 is a wonderful rendition of the 8300 chip, regardless of what people may worry. Double cooled CCDs in an outside environment can be touchy beasts at times, and I believe you will find plenty of non-QHY owners still have to get their cameras serviced unexpectedly. Ultimately any camera is limited by the ability of the photographer wielding it. Someone should have told JPM (http://astroanarchy.blogspot.com.au/)(Astro Anarchy) a QHY9 was a poor choice. :P

Speaking of support, Theo from Gama Electronics (local QHY dealer) really does his best to look after customers.

Hope you save some $$ soon Jeremy. Moving to a cooled CCD from uncooled APS-C DSLR was a (fun) revelation in my astrophotography journey. :thumbsup:

p.s. Don't be in a hurry to unload your HEQ5Pro if its working well for you - most of my recent work was FSQ/QHY9/HEQ5 with an OAG and very happy with star roundness - a nicely portable and under-rated mount, albeit no AP or Software Bisque masterpiece.

[Peter Ward]

Exceptional optics will last you a lifetime. The FSQ85 meets that spec and them some.

Electronics have about the longevity of the spoken word.....rest assured there will be a better camera model next year, and your (electronic) investment will halved.

Keep the Taka! ;)

[jwoody]

Thank you all for the responses and debate. Very interesting reading.
A couple of points I should have been clearer on in my original post:-

* I realise that selling the tak will not give me enough cash to buy a QHY9s and the Esprit, but it would sure help!
* I currently use a QHY8pro, and love it. It has a couple of minor quirks but nothing that can't be overcome. Want to move over to a mono and maybe even dabble in narrowband down the road.
* I will be sticking with the HEQ5 mount for a while, I can get 20 minute guided subs so I think it does well, albeit I haven't owned another mount so I don't have a comparison.

When I bought the Baby Q (second hand ) I thought it would be a keeper for life. Maybe it still will be. There is no denying its a great little scope. But if I have to make a compromise somewhere in order to get a mono camera would the step down (or across? ) to a Esprit 80 be too much of a compromise. I guess only by having the two scopes and comparing them is the only sure way to find out.

I am happy that there has been discussion for keeping the tak and also small praise for the Esprit. I haven't made a decision yet and Sky Rover ULT 115 is in the back of my mind now also! :rolleyes:
Thanks again for the excellent, helpful information and discussion.
Cheers
Jeremy

[jwoody]

Decision made.
Keep the FSQ, sell the QHY8pro, buy QHY9s and Baader 36mm LRGB.

I think the Esprit would be a good little scope but my wife convinced me to keep the Tak (probably so she doesn't have to listen to me moan when I got rid of it!)

Thanks again for all the help and information.
Cheers
Jeremy

[Logieberra]

For the Esprit owners, there is a nice little FSQ85 (BabyQ) currently for sale in the classifieds... (Sorry. Couldn't help myself ;))

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=138538

[LewisM]

Bit exxy for one without the CAA though Logan. I don't think it will sell in a hurry.

I sold my last FSQ-85 a while back at $3000, INCLUDING rings, clamshell, adapters, CAA.

[Camelopardalis]

Even $3k is more than an Esprit 100...$3.5k is almost a 120...so that's quite a mark-up for a label :P

[RobC]

Logan suggest you read the review comparisons between the Esprits and TECs. You might get a shock. Sorry couldn't help myself.

Cheers

Rob

[Logieberra]

Unlikely, Rob. I still think they're asking too much. I purchased a new FSQ106 (when the dollar was better) for not much more than the current asking price of an ESPRIT Triplet ED120... What did impress me recently was a view through a Lunt Engineering/APM 152mm. It compared favorably to my old TOA. To each their own.

http://luntengineering.com/product/lunt-engineering-152mm-f7-9-ed-apo-refractor/