Losmandy HGM Titan

[Somnium]

i was wondering how people found the Losmandy HGM Titan. i am considering picking one up second hand as a package and wanted get the collective wisdom of IIS. given that it is almost the same price and load capacity, my guess is that most people would opt for the Paramount MX. Also when you compare it to the much cheaper EQ8 it doesn't stack up that well either on paper. the Titan doesn't have encoders (not that i can see anywhere on the net), it has about the same PE and load capacity as the EQ8. i have to say that i am surprised that they do have the same capacity, the titan does look like a much sturdier machine with a good quality finish, i wonder if the EQ8 ratings are ambitious and the Titan a little on the conservative side... (maybe the difference is imaging v visual capacity)

I want to keep this as a very general thread on the quality of the Losmandy HGM, any feedback to help make my decision easier would be much appreciated

[AlexN]

I've not seen the EQ8 in person but I've owned two eq6's and two heq5 pros, a G11 and gm8 losmandy mount and I have used a mates titan. I can say with authority that the synta built mounts are not even close to the mechanical quality of losmandy gear. I had no idea that the paramount mx was that cheap (in relative terms of course) and that being the case I think you might be hard pressed to beat the mx. That said I've seen a titan perform effortlessly with 45kgs on its back.

I had at one stage well over 26kg on an eq6 and in the right conditions, balanced just so, the mount performed beyond my expectations, but the old saying does go.. "skimp everywhere you need to except the mount "

Id rather have a cheap 8" newt with a dslr on a g11 without goto than a ccd on a 4" tak on a heq5 pro.

[Somnium]

that seems to align with my thoughts. what do you think about the lack of encoders? any reason why losmandy doesn't provide them?

[AlexN]

I don't see the need? It comes with the Gemini 2 goto setup, it reads from the servo motors if I recall correctly. You would lose your alignment if you push the mount to a different point of the sky.. That is an advantage of the EQ8. The ability to manually move the mount whilst retaining the star alignment is a nice touch. Not a deal breaker for me though. If I had the funds and there was a 2nd hand titan available I'd be all over it. If buying new I would look long and hard at the paramount mx. By all accounts it's a killer mount.

[raymo]

It is not surprising that the Titan looks sturdier than the EQ8, being as it
is rated at 79kg compared with the EQ8's 50kg. It is also not surprising
therefore, that the Titan performed effortlessly with 45kg on board.
raymo

[Somnium]

i wouldn't be moving it manually anyway, i will be remotely driving it so i just wanted to make sure that if the mount powers up after unexpectedly losing power it will not lose its location.

i guess another key thing i need to know is weather the losmandy can be automated effectively. given that i would be using it remotely via a remote desktop and i need to ensure that i can initiate, operate, point, meridian flip and plate solve from power up, without the need to touch the mount. i am sure it can but better to check than be sorry.

[Somnium]

where did the 79kg come from Ray? all i can read online is 100lb

[raymo]

If you Yahoo Losmandy G11 you will see the Losmandy website showing
specifications and prices[ in A$] for their mounts with and without Go To, tripods, etc, and a list of necessary extras such as counterweights, and polar scopes[ if you want one].
raymo

[billdan]

I agree with you Aiden according to the spec sheets I've read the EQ8 load rating is 50kg, The Titan is 46 and the MX is 42.

However if I won Lotto I'd buy the MESU 200 rated at 100Kg and its the same price as an MX ($9K before the dollar dive bombed).

Regards
Bill

[blink138]

yep 100lb raymondo!
pat

[raymo]

Sorry everyone; after delving deeper into the Losmandy website, I found that in the price list it shows the Titan as having a load capacity of 79kg,
but in the specs it shows that as the total inc. counterweights. Sorry again.
raymo

[Somnium]

i think we can let you off the hook just this once


so is anyone using an HGM remotely as i intend to do? and any experiences i should be aware of?

[Peter Ward]

Dealer hat on for a bit....

You cannot use the Titan for remote observing. There is no index switch with which to re-sync the mount if power is lost. Nor does the mount have absolute encoders...hence once power is lost, there is no way of knowing how it is physically oriented.

That said, if you are happy to power up the mount, do a warm-start, slew then sync to a star, the modelling will be preserved and you can easily control it over a network with whatever software (eg SkyX)

Hope that helps.

[Shiraz]

I think that the same applies to EQ8 on an unscheduled power loss. Although it has encoders, they are incremental and don't tell the mount where it is (just how far it has moved). EQ8 does have indexing on both axes, but as far as I can tell, the current ASCOM driver does not make use of it. You can run additional software to home the mount after a power dropout, but that makes full unattended automation more problematic, although it would certainly be a big advantage if you are willing to do a bit yourself (over a network for example) after a power outage.

[rustigsmed]

this thread has some info on remote (eq8)
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=131161

the main bit i am referring to was from AstroJunk

The EQ8 is great for a remote scope if you are using EQMOD. For some reason, Skywatcher have neglected to allow the Synscan handset to be controlled remotely from power-on, which is a shocking omission (please correct me if things have changed!), but EQMOD has no such issues.

One issue that can arise with the EQ8 is the loss of home position on power failure if the scope is not parked. The Auto-home feature is not an ascom feature so cannot be controlled through eqmod. Fortunately Skywatcher have put together a utility to do that (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ns/topics/1114 (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SkywatcherEQ8/conversations/topics/1114)) but it would require that you remote access your observatory pc to run it.

I have never had to use it in anger, but I can imagine one day powering down the scope accidentally before parking it!!!!

[Somnium]

if you have a web camera on the mount then surely if you lose power and mount location you can power up next time, roughly align it to the home position then use plate solving to find your location when imaging. ... maybe i am being naive

[Peter Ward]

Losmandy mounts do not have a "home position" as such. The cold start (i.e when all is lost) position is counterweight down and Dec +/- 90 (depends on your hemisphere).

Only mounts with absolute encoders or a home switch can keep track of their physical orientation while preserving modeling data after a complete power loss or loss of comms. ( i.e Bisque, AP etc. )

[Somnium]

but if you can point it to the sky and image, then can't the mount find itself through platesolving and syncing?

i am in a position where either i get the Losmandy second hand or pick up an EQ8. if i get the losmandy it will hopefully be a mount for life, so i want to make sure i am not making a big mistake, hence the stupid questions

[Shiraz]

An approach may be to accept that recovering from an unscheduled power down will be difficult and run your remote system on fully protected, battery backed power.

Another consideration with an EQ8 is that they can require a fair bit of worm clearance to work properly - not an issue if you are present to adjust loads to manage backlash, but will be an issue if you want it to work properly at any pointing angles. The Losmandy probably has similar issues (guessing) - I suspect that spring loaded worms or direct drive are almost a requirement for full remote.

[Somnium]

Sounds expensive ... I was going to put in a ups for the computer but not the mount itself

[Peter Ward]

I don't believe the Losmany Gemini can do a sync from a plate solve. The hardware will align to an extensive list of stars, but even then only after you have manually centered the star in the field of view.

I don't know of anyone using the Gemini system remotely for these reasons.

Bisque and AP are tried and proven....and while you may not like he price, they will save you a world of hurt when operated remotely.

[AlexN]

If you are worried about the cost of an extra ups with regards to a remote observatory you are playing the wrong game my friend.

At least factor in a a bisque mount, sky camera, reasonable internet connection, foolproof camera and guiding solution, instrument rotator, solid scope with no flexure issues, automated temp compensation focuser, solar array, large batteries, ups for computers/mount/cameras. Backup generator (automated) weather station, dew control gear. Automated roof, method for taking flat fields.. I'm sure someone who has one has more idea than me but that's the list I'd start with.

The old saying, buy right, buy once.

[Shiraz]

I would have thought that a minimum requirement for a remote obs is that you have enough energy stored to make the mount safe and close the roof if the mains goes down. You cannot afford to have a local lightning strike leave your scope pointing upwards through an open roof when the associated rain arrives.

If you have a solid UPS, it may be possible to use the Losmandy on the basis that the UPS/PC will be able to make your system safe and secure before turning everything off. Then you would need to travel to the remote site to get it all set up again - which might be an option depending on location. However, it really does seem to be worth getting a self homing mount for a remote observatory.

[Somnium]

the observatory is not completely isolated, it is on a property i own about 1:45 mins away. it has internet access, proper power and some very nice neighbours who i can bribe with a beer if it comes to the worst. i think i have most things covered off...


mount ... the topic of this thread
good internet, check, i can revert to wifi if there is an issue with the cabling
sky camera, i am looking to pick up something soon, just looking at my options
camera and guiding solution. i am currently (upgrade to come in a while) using a QHY9 and QHY 5l ii and i have never had to touch the camera during an imaging session, fairly sure i can troubleshoot any issues.
instrument rotator, not necessary but may come down the track
scope, looking to pick up a planewave 12.5 which has the hedrick focuser and dew control
automated roof is already installed and working great, and will close when rain is sensed.
flats can be taken at dusk or using algorithms on multiple lights in different locations

the only other thing is all the power related requirements. i don't see the need for solar given this is not off the grid. also my main concern is to close the roof during a power outage. this can be done with the UPS i intended to buy but it might be stretching it if i were to power the mount as well, i am not hugely concerned if i have to head down there to set the mount up after a power outage, i go there fairly regularly anyway. but i do want to make sure the mount can be turned off and on (from a park position) and then execute an imaging session completely from a computer. otherwise i will have to leave the mount powered up and i don't want to do that.

i have been successfully testing this with an EQ6 for a couple of months now so unless there is something specific to the Losmandy that is going to cause me issues it should be okay.

[Somnium]

This is the issue that i am trying to work through. i never really thought about a Losmandy until recently. Bintel is selling a second hand Planewave 12.5 with the HGM at a pretty good price which is tempting. if go for the Paramount MX then i wouldn't have the cash left over for a top quality scope. The thought is that this is an opportunity to deck out the observatory with a great set up for life rather than waiting another 12 months and spending an additional 10 - 15k.

[clive milne]

Adrian, if I could suggest a different solution.

If you are happy with the load carrying capacity of the Titan then it might be easier and cheaper to simply make the power supply more robust with an added layer of redundancy.

There are quite a few DC/AC inverters available that act as the control element of a UPS. (you supply your own batteries) The advantage with this route is that they are inexpensive and the total capacity is limited by the amount you want to spend on batteries. For high reliability you could maintain the battery charge with solar panels feeding through an mppt charger and the system would automatically switch to 240v mains when needed. The amount you save on power bills would pay for the system over a reasonable time period.... And it is a lot cheaper than buying a paramount or AP1600

I think the advantages of high end mounts (with homing sensors) for remote imaging are over stated if the power management is addressed correctly.

[Somnium]

Thanks Clive,

i have no issue with the load capacity of the Titan it will carry what i intend on putting on it with ease (CDK 12.5 and a 80 APO). I don't expect to get power outages often, so my main focus was to secure the observatory in case of a power outage, i can do that with a relatively small UPS (500w). if i can maintain power to the mount without dropping another 6k then i will do that but so long as i can power up the mount and drive it remotely via astroart, or similar, without having to go through any hand control procedure or physical interaction.

i will look into the inverter solution tonight, thanks

[Somnium]

i just saw the following video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAjcQ4vqX28

which outlines the park and home positions for the Losmandy. They say that once the mount is parked it will turn off into a sleeping mode and it will remember all its details when you unpark. i assume this can be executed via a serial connection to the mount, and that if you turn it off at the power point it will lose its location ... correct?

[jase]

Allsky plate solving will recover a lost Titan. I've done it before. You can also resync using ASCOM. There is quite a lot of fluffing around to make a Titan work remote but it can be done despite no homing sensor or absolute encoders. I'm sure I've developed a few grey hairs as a result of doing it a few years ago. If you are the adventurous type and don't mind a challenge, go for it. Just make sure you've got the ability to close your observatory when bad stuff goes down, which includes getting the OTA out of the way of the roof (which requires a functioning mount).

[Somnium]

The roof can be closed at any time including when power is out, and the roof will never hit the mount or the scope. I am up for a bit of a project but I am not an engineer and ultimately I want to take images, not tinkering (hence I am buying a cdk, not a huge gso).

[jase]

OK, then you've answered your own question. Forget the Titan and go with an out of box robotic mount designed for the job. You'll minimise tinkering and be more productive.

[Somnium]

like an AP or paramount ?

also i was wondering, what caused the grey hairs? I am not too concerned with the lack of homing or absolute encoders because i can home the mount after an imaging session through SG pro and i will bite the bullet and physically correct the mount if i lose power and pointing ability. have you had any other issues i should be aware of that require tinkering? i have heard of some issues with backlash on some of the losmandy mounts, any thoughts?

[AlexN]

Backlash is an issue that is very easily addressed. My Heq5 has almost 0 backlash due to me taking the time to adjust the worms properly and installing a belt drive that removes the poor quality spur gears. I think the dramas with remote operation that Peter and the others have discussed are far bigger factors to consider. Having read all this I think that spending the extra on a paramount or an ap1100 would pay dividends in the long term.

[jase]

Yes, AP, Paramount, ASA, Planewave, Chronos, Astelco NTM-500 and others. You either need a homing sensor or absolute encoders to go remote without pain. AP mounts have upgrade options for encoders and homing sensors, they don't always have them installed by default with exception to the 3600GTO. Bisque's mounts have been specifically designed from the start for robotic use so have a proven track record. They were the innovators of through the mount cabling, an important criteria for remote use.

The grey hairs came from pushing the equipment for what its not specifically designed to do, fun but complex at times. Homing the mount in software, or parking it doesn't mean much in terms of relative pointing if the mount is aleady lost and has no physical reference point. When I starting going remote back in 2008 there was a lot of trial and error. AllSky platesolving was a pipe dream back then so a lost mount was, well, truely lost. I had a script at the time that forced the mount into the western limit, then slewed the mount back for a specific time period which got the RA very close to its preconfigured home position. Clunky but worked. The DEC axis was aligned using a web cam, that would only work during daylight hours (poor lux). So a lost scope would take me a day to recover remotely. Once AllSky platesolving started to emerge in 2010-2011, it was a major break through. Then people started scripting it to make it super simple to resync your scope as seen here - http://forums.dc3.com/showthread.php?6448-Script-to-sync-telescope-with-Skysolve
Pointing models and the like go out the window on lost scopes. At the time, I used ACP's pointing solution which was handy as it built its model on each platesolve for targets I was imaging. You could train it to a few points in the sky to get a basic model quickly. Wasn't too much effort to rebuild or resync but its nowhere near as advanced as tpoint. Would I do what I again? No, I'd purchase a PME as I have done a few years ago. Do I regret what I did? Not at all, a few grey hairs but a significant amount of experience was gained. Going remote with any equipment, you quickly build skills and knowledge on areas many don't think about. You will get to know the equipment and software intimately. You can make it work with the Titan if you've got the time to put in. I can't promise you'll spend more time imaging than tinkering. Tinkering..yes...Backlash as you raised is one. worm block needs adjustment and you'll need to get your cable management under control as the DEC clutch on the Titan is a cable killer. Many a time of severed a dew heater cable (clean cut) during a slew. You will find that internet telescope hosting facilities such as NMSkies, iTelescope or SRO will not accept mounts without a homing sensor or absolute encoders being present as the support work in maintaining a mount that doesn't have the capability is too high. I'm only stating this as if you are thinking of placing your set up into one of these facilities, you may as well plan ahead and get equipment that is capable from the beginning.

[Peter.M]

Just so you know, with SGP, there is no such thing as a "lost mount" unless it cant see any stars. Im sure that if that happened with a simple webcam you could manually point it at some stars and it would get back on track. I have been using it for a few years, and since then have not put a single sync into my EQmod pointing model. I simply setup, do my PA routine, and tell it to take more images of a preset target. It will do the rest for you if you set it up right.

[Somnium]

Thanks Jase, your experience is helpful. through the mount wiring is another thing that i have considered but not really talked about. I like the solution that Paramount uses with USB and power ports on the mounting plate, along with through the mount cabling. i understand the issue with absolute encoders and homing sensors but i don't feel that this is absolutely necessary for what i am expecting to do. The preference would be a PMX, but i think i will take the risks, tinkering and grey hairs if my offer gets accepted on the losmandy & cdk 12.5 combo. if i cant get that to work to my expectations then you will see a Titan on the IIS classifieds to fund the PMX.

[Somnium]

Thanks Peter, this has been my thinking, i have used EQMod with an EQ6 simulating a remote observatory for the past couple of months and haven't had any issue with pointing. the world of plate solving has really made finding your scope a lot less trouble.