astrophotography recommendations

[sejanus]

greetings. 1st post :)

I've been looking into getting a telescope.

I'm a photographer and have lots of lovely high end canon gear. I was just wondering if I could maybe get some recommendations with astrophotography in mind. I'd prefer to not use dedicated CCD imagers but would like to use my cameras and lenses as I know them back to front and have seen great results from them by trawling the web.

So far from reading countless beginner guides and lots of web pages, I'm kinda leaning towards the meade lx200 range, either a 8" or a 10" - probably the 10. To be honest even the 12" tempted me until I saw it was 68kg - which I think might be pushing portability a bit far - though it still intrigues me.

Another option would be the celestron 11".

I'm aware all these are v.expensive but I don't want to buy a 4" or 6" and then later on wish that I had bought bigger - I live "in the sticks" and have nice dark skies and a massive garage in my backyard where I can leave the telescope permanently assembled and roll it out when needed. I will take it in the car very occasionally but this would not be common. I have a wagon and 4wd for this.

I'd be very interested in comments from those who know this stuff a lot better than me as to ;

- if the above scopes are quite good for what I want
- if a different kind would be better - i.e. not a schmidt cassegrain.
- if the celestron is better than meade or vice versa. my impression from the web articles I have found is that the celestron is better built, but it does attract a price premium and the meade is still quite decent.
- I'd be super interested if anyone in here from sydney has one of those scopes or similar and wouldn't mind letting me have a look one night.

The camera to attach would be a Canon 5D or 1Ds MK2 with probably a 35/1.4 or a 85/1.2 or a 16-35/2.8. I have other lenses but guess those are probably the relevant ones.

cheers and many thanks for any info.

Gav

[74tuc]

Hello Gav,

Your cameras sound wonderful - the EOS DSLR's are very nice indeed.

Using cameras like the EOS 1D sets the bar very high.

In astrophotography the most important thing is the mount / pier and footing. You cannot afford to compromise on these, so expect to spend more on the mount combination than the 'scope. As a start you will need to select the hardware and determine the weight of what you are going to put on the mount. Eg. You may have a telescope and camera and an auxillary guide 'scope for off axis guiding plus sub-mount for the guide 'scope. As a rule of thumb I would select a mount that can carry 150% of that weight.

For large sensors (EOS 1) you need a 'telescope that provides a large flat and well corrected field (at least 40mm diameter un-vignetted image circle).

The telescopes that provide these will be refractors like the Tak. FSQ104 that has a 4" focuser or a fast RC camera like the Tak. BBRC 250.

For smaller image sensors you cannot go past the F2.8 Tak. Epsilon series astrographs.

Having said that you would have to look at the suitability of using a normal DSLR for deep sky photography as they have filters that cut-out most of the red emissions from nebulae and are generally more noisy than cooled CCD's. But for medium length exposures (say 5 mins.) you could get some stunning widefield pics.

Well thats my two bobs worth Gav,

Clear skies and good luck,

Jerry.

[RB]

Wow sorry Gav, I missed this thread.
Welcome to IIS.

Awesome Canon gear you have there.
I agree with Jerry, the mount is what will play a huge roll in the quality of your work.
There's a lot of people using the Losmandy G11 mount (http://www.losmandy.com/g-11.html) and it's got great payload capabilities.

I'd be leaning towards Celestron for a SCT, generally the quality is better from what I hear although the Meade LX200R is yielding some excellent results for one of our members, Tony (Striker). (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/member.php?u=89)

You'll also be able to do some fantastic widefields using your Canon lenses.
These fast lenses are perfect for astro work.
Do you have any other longer FL lenses?

If you're in the Sydney area, we meet up at Kulnura every new moon.
Perhaps you could come up if it's not too far for you.

BTW if you are looking at a Meade Fork mount setup, you'll also need to get a wedge for an equatorial set-up since the fork mount is alt-az and not suitable for long exposures.

:)

[74tuc]

Mistake in my response - sorry.

FSQ104 should be FSQ106

Jerry

[RB]

Oh BTW FSQ106 has been discontinued, only available from existing stock from o/s suppliers (or 2nd hand of course).

[Striker]

Like Andrew has mentioned.

The mount is what it's all about...get a nice solid mount and you can put virtualy anything on it...without being stupid
The FSQ is a wonderful scope...it's going to give you a very widefield of view and is really dedicated for CCD work more then DSLR's...if your going with DSLR I would look at something with a longer focal length then the FSQ 530mm FL.

A focal range between 1000mm-2000mm is a good place to start unless all you want to do is widefield imaging then any short focal length will do.

[sejanus]

Hi Rocket boy and others

Firstly I'd love to meet up and check out the different scopes - I have a wild instinct to go and lash out at Bintel but am resisting as much as I can until I am 100% sure. Kulnura is about 2hrs from me - I don't mind - do you know when the next meet is?

This thread took a while to get any replies on :) So I have been talking to some guys on the cloudy nights forums in the meantime and am almost decided (I think!)

With my canon gear, my lenses are (I'm a wedding photog) ;

- 16-35/2.8
- 35/1.4
- 85/1.2
- 135/2
- 300/2.8

On the cloudy nights forums, they seem to be discouraging the use of a SCT due to the inherently long focal length/narrow field of view. However I would like the lx200 to just look through for funs sake, and for my wifes sake as although photography is my main interest I won't be doing it 100% of the time and she certainly won't be.

Heres the choices I seem to be with at the moment after talking to the cloudy nights guys ;

Firstly, they have all recommended a GEM which Bintel sell for $2399, the EQ6Pro. I think this is known as an atlas eq-g in the states.

Option 1 -

EQ6Pro + Meade 10" lx200r OTA with Canon DSLR piggybacked - this is my current favourite option as it's obviously a big contrast between the 2.

Option 2 -

EQ6Pro + Meade 10" lx200r OTA with Orion ED 80mm APO with Canon DSLR attacked to Orion. My concern with this is I don't think the Orion 80mm would be massively different to my existing canon lenses, I know it's double the focal length but it's also a low slower aperture wise, the slowest aperture on my camera lenses is f/2.8.

Option 3 -

Meade 8" LXD75 SN with Canon DSLR either piggybacked of attached directly to the scope depending on focal length requirements. The SN is much brighter than a lx200 - f/4 vs f/10.

As stated option 1 is my current fave though I'm happy to be talked out of it. The lxd75 has me intrigued though, being a brighter scope.

Any thoughts on this?

cheers

[sejanus]

oh i should note that the astro I am interested in is the widefield stuff, i.e. vistas of nebula/milky way etc.

[xelasnave]

How about an eq6 and an 80mm (triplet can be had for $1500 or doublet around $500) I suggest that because you can use it for a guide scope and a very good capture scope and add it to the scope set up you finally select. Much fine widefiled work is done with an 80mm. For my money given the lens and gear you have shot thru the camera and its lens using the 80mm as a guider.. That will keep you occupied. Have a look at some of the wide fields using canon standard lens (I got some good ones with only a 300d and standard lens and found it very satisfying, more so than narrower fields actually)
My final choice eq6, 80mm triplet, 9.25 or 11 inch celestron with a usablable piggy back mount to hold cameras securely
Anyways whatever you get there will be another more appealing thats part of this hobby there are always greener fields to infinity
alex

[xelasnave]

and I would be looking thru the 11 inch and capturing with the 80mm;)
alex

[xelasnave]

Better chech this but I think with the celestron you can remove the seconary and place a astro cam there to get shorter f/l's that is a neat feature if the dream is delivered
alex

[xelasnave]

this is what I had in mind, given you are a photographer you may want an astro camera sooner rather than later.. cooling mmm less noise fainter objects longer exposures ..I would think about it thats all as for a main ota its a versatile setup.
alex

[[1ponders]]

Hi sejanus.

I use pretty much the same setup as you option 2, the only difference is I have the older 8" meade and have a Losmandy G11. This is an extremely versatile setup, especially if you include a 6.3 focal reducer into the system. It will drop the Orion from 7.5 down to 4.73 or the SCT to f6.3 :P:). Throw in a barlow/powermate and a ToUcam and with your existing lenses you are set to image just about anything you can think of, from the moon and planets in high res detail out to the sprawling stellar vistas of the milky way. Throw in a Solar filter or PST and you even have the sun covered :thumbsup:

Yes there are better scopes around (though the Meade R series seem to be doing extremely well), but the Orion is probably the best value for money "semi-apo" :rolleyes: scope going atm. While the f4 SN might seem like a great idea, and photographically it probably is, as a first imaging scope, personally I think you will find it very challenging to get the most out of it. Particularly in relation to its demanding collimation and very small critical focus range.

JM2CW

Oh and :welcome: to the family ;)

[RB]

Gav if I had to choose, I'd choose option 2.
Why?

Because it will give you the best options for the future.
My only concern is that I'm not sure if the EQ6 will handle this load.
Someone else can answer this.

EQ6Pro + Meade 10" lx200r OTA with Orion ED 80mm APO with Canon DSLR attached to Orion.

With a setup like this you can image at least three different ways.

1. Thru the Meade at both f/10 and with a Focal reducer at f/6.3
2. Thru the ED80, again at f/7.5 or with a reducer at around f/5
3. piggyback one of your awesome primes on the scopes and do super wide fields or up closer with higher F.L. lenses

I've used the 85mm f/1.2 for a single shot widefield. See this link. (http://www.users.bigpond.com/the_galilee/storage/rho.htm)

:)

[sejanus]

Lovely shot :eyepop: What mount was it on? Thats the sort of shot I am interested in making. Respect to the 85/1.2 :) I've done some neat star trails on a tripod in my backyard but haven't got anything to 'track' the stars.

I've sent a pm to striker to ask him if he still likes his lx200! though i expect it to be yes.

Mounting all 3 does scare me a bit though don from bintel seems to think it'll be ok?? I guess lenses like the 85 and 135 are ok but the 300mm is a serious bit of glass and pretty hefty.

Do you think it might be worthwhile to just get the lx200 to begin with and put the 5D on top of it, and then a little later when I've got a bit more of a grasp on things to get the 80mm? Or do you think I should grab the whole lot at once :scared:


cheers

[sejanus]

thanks heaps for the info. With the FL reducers, do they cost you much in optical quality?

I'm just asking this as based in the photo world, you can use a teleconverter to increase a lens focal length (FL increaser I guess you could call it) but as a result of using the teleconverter you first of all lose a stop (or 2) of light and secondly it costs you a bit of image sharpness when using the lens at it's widest aperture - does the same sort of issues occur with a FL reducer?

cheers

[RB]

Gav I'd go one step at a time.
You can always get the 80 ED later.

As for the Focal reducer you are actually gaining speed not multiplying the f.l so it makes the scope quicker.
The image quality doesn't suffer too much except for some vignetting but you can crop.

Wow you have some serious gear mate.

I'm glad you liked my image.

Cheers

PS oh I forgot that image was taken on an EM200 mount.

[sejanus]

What sort of effective ISO do they run at?

The reason I ask is that the gear I have is pretty much the best you can get for low light in the traditional photography world - are the dedicated CCD imagers really a step above that?

A combination of my lenses being f/1.4 to f/2.8 and the Canon 5D can do very good 800/1600 iso exposures - it can suck a lot of light in - I'd sure be interested if the ccd was better but it surprises me if they are :) (of course I'm discounting research/university grade stuff when i say that)

thanks

[[1ponders]]

The EQ6 is rated up to 18.2 kg so it has a pretty good carrying capacity (slightly more than a Losmandy GM8 but less than the G11) and the 10", an 80ED plus camera and ancillary equipment will be pushing the limit (work with about 50%-60% of load for imaging) but there is a caveat here in that the lengths of the SCT and Orion are very short so there is much less lever arm movement than with a long reflector or refractor. I work right up to the limit with my GM8 with np and I believe it's the compactness of the ota combination that allows me to do this.

As for the focal reducers, you will increase your field of view so stars should look smaller and sharper anyway, plus if you have one designed for your OTA (ie an SCT FR for the SCT) then you should end up with a flatter and more usable imaging field. I'm still experimening using the SCT FR on the Orion atm but it looks promising.

[RB]

Oh and keep an eye out for an anonouncement from Mike (Icypole) about Kulnura, he usually posts the dates during that week in this forum (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=16).

I'd say we're looking at Sat 21st Oct, but just check.

[[1ponders]]

The problem of the Canon over the dedicated CCD is the noise level, particulary amp noise in long exposure, unless you are able to turn the amp off in yours during exposure. Also many dedicated CCD now us peltier cooling to reduce the noise even more.

Having said that the DSLR are very versitile wth off the shelf components and lenses

[sejanus]

Ahh nuts, I'll be photographing a wedding that saturday

[sejanus]

Sorry I know I am probably asking a question that is so obvious that it's like asking if the sky is blue - but is that mount you have a german equatorial style mount like the EQ6?

[[1ponders]]

Here are a couple of samples of what the Orion ED80 can do. This is using the Meade 6.3 FR and an adapter to reach focus. These are the first shots taken with this particular arrangements. No particular care was taken during processing, just curves and levels to bring out the details.

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17744&d=1159806359
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17640&d=1159621498

[h0ughy]

I have a 12" SCT and will soon be mounting that on one of my EQ6's. to negate the use of a guide scope I have bought a Lumicon Giant Easy Guider, which will help cut down the clutter and weight I hope (yep famous last words, I will probably mount the ED80 I have on top and image through that at the same time). I am confident that the mount will take it, or else I wouldn't be heading down this track!

[RB]

Yes it is a GEM.
And you're welcome to ask any questions you like that's what we're here for.
:thumbsup:

Oh btw, the wedding will finish up at around 1am.
You still have time to make it to Kulnura, we go till sunrise, even if it's hailing.....:lol:

[sejanus]

Do I need something special to guide this setup or will the one that the lx200 comes with suffice for a while?

[sejanus]

haha :) And actually thats not so silly as it finishes in north sydney - it may depend how tired I am, I guess I could always stuff enough caffeine into myself to kill a bull :)

[[1ponders]]

You wont be able to guide through a finder scope. Infact I don't think the OTAs come with a finder unless you by the whole LX200R package of forks and all. You will need either an off axis guider or an elcheapo guidescope.

[[1ponders]]

If however you are happy to stay with widefield piggybacking you can guide through the 10" with an illuminated reticle.

[sejanus]

I saw some people mentioning on the cloudy nights forum using the 80mm as a guider? or did I misunderstand them?

i.e. if that is true, maybe i will get the 80 after all rather than chucking money at a cheap interim guider.

if I'm way off here let me know. I've used a scope before but never really thought about guiders or such.

thanks

[[1ponders]]

The ED80 makes a terrific guidescope. It's a top little all round scope. There are so many options when you come to astrophotography. With the correct adapter and a webcam you an even guide with your existing long FL camera lenses. For example your 300 with a webcam would be ideal for guiding the Orion.

I really think you need to get up to Kulnura and have a look and a good chat. Its a huge area to start in and knowing what you want to do in terms of area of astrophotography (eg widefield) quickly determines the type of equipment best suited to what you want to do.

[sejanus]

cool. thanks muchly to everyone for the info it is greatly appreciated

[RB]

You do understand the terms guider, guidescope and tracking Gav?
Just want to make sure you don't get mixed up.

The tracking is the mount just moving on it's own, trying to keep up with the earths movement.

Guiding is when you use a device/guide camera through a guidescope which gives instructions to the mount to keep it moving and following the star that it's guiding on.

Guidescope is the actual scope which you put your guide camera in while you use your DSLR through the other scope to image.

Hope that explains the terms.

[sejanus]

my impression of it was on the smaller scope you use it to find an object, then you attach the appropriate eyepiece to the 'main' scope to 'zoom in' on the actual object of interest once you have it in the fov. thats how i did it with the old etx i used to borrow. Is that somewhat accurate?

[RB]

Yes, but I'm talking about guiding when you are actually imaging.

[sejanus]

ah. no I'm not quite fully familiar with the during imaging part. this was sorta why i initially thought leave the 80mm until later when i get a bit more knowledge.

[[1ponders]]

There are a number of ways to setup Gav. In the first photo I'm setup to image through the 8" and the 300D and autoguide using a ToUcam and laptop through the 80. Alternatively I could image through the 80 with the 300D and autoguide or manually guide through the 8".

This over/under setup is the most common. If however your weight is pushing the mount limit you can opt for a side/side mounting setup. It's harder to balance but keeps the weight nearer the mount head (second photo).

You could also have your DSLR in place of the 80 in the first photo or one of the refractors in the second. You basically mix and match to suit your needs.

[sejanus]

got ya. now it's making sense.

<looks at laptop for future use> :)

thanks

[sejanus]

speaking of mounts now - is the next step up from the E6Pro a substantial increase in price?

[[1ponders]]

The EQ6 is good value for money for the weight it can carry, though you do have a trade off in that it's periodic error (regular gear induced tracking error from out of round/none centered worm gears etc) is worse than more expensive mounts (normally). Having said that many imagers are turning out fabulous shots using the EQ6. Just don't expect its performance to be that of an Astro Physic Mach1, but at around a quarter the price you wouldn't expect it to be.

[[1ponders]]

The next step up from the EQ6 (for weight capacity) would probably be the Losmandy G11 which varies from around $5000 and then add another $1500 for Gemini goto (these are only ball park figures. Plasmodium could tell you what the latest prices are as he has just bought one).

There is also a Celestron mount (CGE about $6000) available in the same carrying capacity, but I don't know much about it.

[sejanus]

I see. EQ6 it is then :) fingers crossed it does the job. I might leave the 300/2.8 in the bag and just use lighter lenses until I get a grip on it all.

[[1ponders]]

Any idea where you are going to get it from?

[xelasnave]

My point, apart from the point re astro cameras, with your cams and current lens with a good mount and any old guide scope you will get fantastic widefields. I used only an eq5 and for widefield it can run unguided for 45 mins. Using a scope at f5 sees only 150 to 200 seconds of decent tracking.. look into periodic error regards mounts if you have not already. I would be experimenting there first up the shorter f/l's to start there will be less frustration with tracking. I think the tracking (hence mount efficiency) is the first thing to get aquainted with.. anyways a bad decision is better than no decision or indecision and any of your opions would not be bad. I though similar about noise but I expect there is a reason people spend big bucks on cooled cams.. I just recon you will want better than you even have now ...happens to most people in this game:) .
Good luck
alex

[sejanus]

I'm not really tied down to anywhere yet. I've been talking to Don from Bintel a bit by email and dropped in there this afternoon to have a chat in person and more importantly I wanted to have a look at the eq6pro in person.

[RB]

IsDonIsGood!!!

[sejanus]

hiya,

yeah the widefield on the camera piggyback is something I'm really looking forward to playing with. A mate said to me something similar re : shorter FL's. He suggested getting the GEM + a modest APO (I guess the orion 80mm is a good example) and using that until I get the hang of things, THEN get a 10" SCT.

The only problem with that incredibly sensible idea is that I'm a bit of a twit and kinda want a big scope to look through :) The store said the lx200 would take 6 weeks to get in so maybe I could do both.

[[1ponders]]

A few options to consider re stores:
www.bintel.com.au good after sales service with their own workshop and qualified technicians, so if anything goes wrong 99% of the time they can fix it there in the store

www.myastroshop.com.au often cheaper than Bintel (check though individual items an vary in price), the guy behind the shop front is an avid amateur astronomer and a great help, good service but I'm not sure if he has an after sales service or where he gets warranty work done.

www.andrewscom.com is probably the cheapest of the lot but generally only sell cartons, and are not a dedicated astronomy store.

eg. check out the price difference between the eq6 with Skyscan $1000 difference. But sometimes the cheapest price isn't the best price ;)

[CometGuy]

Gav,

I noticed you have the Canon 300 f2.8. Thats a very nice APO telescope by itself and with a 2x Teleconverter yields a 600 5.6. It may even be better optically than the Orion 80.

Terry

[sejanus]

Hi Terry,

The only problem with the 2x tele on the 300mm is that it's really poor optically at f/5.6 and realistically it's not even that stunning at f/8 - it really needs to be stopped down a fair bit to pick up it's optical quality.

[xelasnave]

Get the big scope and piggy back the 300 mm:thumbsup: ..have a look at Bert's 300 mm work herein..it was 300mm I recall.brilliant work..
I was in sales once and I realised people want what they want and ask until they find someone who agrees so they feel good about going ahead...you cant go wrong no matter what you do..and you can never have to many scopes. Welcome aboard you have the making of a true enthusiast;) .
alex

[RB]

Gav, I'd give the 300mm and/or 2x a go, you may be very pleasantly surprised mate.

[sejanus]

haha :) thats a nice quote there :)

[sejanus]

thanks for all the info guys

I just ordered the eq6 pro mount, and the orion 80mm ED and the necessary bits to put the dslr on top of the scope, and also to attach it to the scope. I'm super keen to give the camera a try on top of the mount.

Don said there is a new version of the mount coming out in 1-2 weeks so I'm waiting on that to arrive.

I'm just going to make sure I have a good grip on it all and get a little experienced and will then get the lx200 - probably around nov/dec as I have a month off work in january and would like it then to play with it. :)

[RB]

Excellent Gav, wise choice mate.
Hopefully we'll get to meet up sometime at Kulnura.

BTW do you have any terrestrial photos you might like to share with us?
Maybe start a new thread in the Cameras and Photography forum.
I'd love to see some taken with the gear you have.

[sejanus]

I mostly do weddings and modelling but sure I'll post one or two :)

If the scope arrives here before the day of the next meet I'll do my best to get up there.

cheers

[xelasnave]

I am going to stick an old widefield taken last March using standard 300d on eq5 and $200 guide scope to wet your appetite
alex

[xelasnave]

Have a look in Deep Space forum herein at Widefield 300d example..its only 6 meg can you imagine what you will be able to do?
Good luck ..say Hi to Don for me
alex

[Lee]

How many other counterweights do you have on that shaft Paul?

[sejanus]

the eq6 with the v3 software and the 80mm should arrive tomorrow but I have double weddings this weekend so I told bintel I'll get it monday instead.

Been doing a bit of looking around at reader reports of this mount. It looks like I may end up going the celestron route on the SCT side when I get one
as they are a bit lighter than the meades which should help with this mounts capabilities.

[sejanus]

heres the finished product. i expect it to remain cloudy for ages now :D

http://www.gavincato.com/tmp/scope.jpg

[RB]

:clap:
Looks like a great setup Gav, no wonder Kulnura is clouded out tonight.
Can't wait to see it in action.

:)

[[1ponders]]

Mmmmmm....new Toys ...Arrggggggg!!!!


:lol:

You will eventually get to appreciate the rain, even if it is only in a philosophical way :lol:

[sejanus]

well i just had a first crack at it, predictably i couldn't get it polar aligned and nor could my wife (and she's the brainy one!) and as I'm dead tired from being up last night for the f1 I'll have to leave it for another night. I did manually slew it around a bit and to be honest I really wasn't that impressed, it wasn't anything like i had seen through a friends scope but i will give it more time. kinda wondering if i should have bought that big SCT after all!

cheers

Gav

[sejanus]

just went outside with the good old binoculars and my star chart and stuffed if I can locate octans :) should it be visible from most places? sorry for dummy questions.

[h0ughy]

Persevere, you wont regret it. I haven't got the hang of my setup yet either and I have two eq6's!! Because your just new, well for that matter, even if you are old it doesn't matter, if you can learn by your mistakes then it will make you a better imager, scope setteruperer etc. you can only learn by stuffing up, its traditional. you get that frustrated that you want to put an axe through it to polar align it. but mate when you get it together and it works, look out, you wont sleep the whole night! between slewing to objects and then trying to image them you will look back on your erroneous nights and remember the moments of wanting to give up. You never will after you achieve the smallest milestone - knowing your equipment. :whistle:

ask ponders about my setup at duckadang this year, I tried to drift align for hours without success, then along comes Mr I can fix it in a jiffy, and the bugger did too, in less than 10 minutes. I was close and didn't even realise it. If you can Gav rope someone off the site who lives near you to come over one night and run through the setup with them, maybe they could help identify what you need to learn or show you what to do. With octans it is very faint, under a full moon or light polluted areas forget it. go a compass, point south then go 10 degrees or so towards east and line up the mount in that direction and make sure its level. Then read up on all the drift alignment threads (1ponders in in most) and try it out. but just do that for the whole night until you can get it down pat! then show us the results with a few stunners mate of globs, nebs and widefields (:D oh no more girlie links, my wife thinks I am over exercising the optic nerve):thumbsup:

[Lee]

Keep chipping at it - I think I have one little win each time I go out, am VERY slowly getting there.... once you get the thing polar aligned - have a look at rogerg's site for some good help - then mark the position of the tripod legs (I use spray paint on the grass!) - will speed things up 10 fold next trip.....
Good luck!

[sejanus]

thanks for the tips mate. I'll try your 10 degree trick.

Are you guys heading up to your kulnurra place this saturday?

[sejanus]

spray paint on the grass :rofl:If I ever get it aligned :)

[RB]

Yes mate, if the weather agrees.
Are you coming?

[sejanus]

I'd love to if it's ok. it's my last saturday free for about 7-8 weeks i think.

Could I twist someones arm to show a idiot how to polar align? :D