Cutting down Newtonians

[Lee]

I've decided to take the plunge and cut down my Newt :scared: (well - soon anyway!) for imaging.
If I move the mirror up the OTA up by 35mm, everything will be OK for visual by adding a 35mm extension tube in the focuser - right? :confused:

(I realise there could be some vignetting if secondary not quite big enough)

If it all turns to custard visual wise I guess I'd have to get a 12" anyway.... :D

[Garyh]

Hi Lee,
Your are right there, a extension tube will get it going for visual use. You won`t notice vignetting much for visual but you will see it in your images.
You should go and put a bigger secondary mirror in as well.
How big is the secondary in your newt?.
Cheers Gary

[Lee]

Have no idea Gary - whatever comes with a standard GSO 8" f/6.... I thought about the secondary, will probably leave it initially, and replace it if vignetting is intrusive.
Happy about the extension tube, from my eyeballing experiments the other night, 35mm movement should bring the SLR to focus easily :prey:

[EzyStyles]

Hi Lee. I know for mine GSO 8" F/4 the secondary mirror is 63mm. what about longer collimation screws? also, what adapters do you use to attach the DSLR into the focuser? if it is:

focuser --> prime focus adapter --> t-mount --> DSLR

unscrew the 2" barrel from the prime focus adapter. If it is a standard t-mount ring, there is a small inner ring attached by 3 screws. take this ring out and put in the 2" barrel instead. This will give you more in-focus. make sure the 3 screws are fully tighten.

[ausastronomer]

Lee,

That newt has a 50mm secondary which is somewhat oversized anyway, particularly for visual use. Before you go and buy a replacement secondary I would try what you suggest and just use the extension tube for visual work. I think the secondary will be fine as it is. The 10" version of the GSO scopes are similarly fitted with a 63mm secondary in a 10" scope (25% CO) which again is somewhat oversized for visual work in a 10"/F5 newt.

If I get a chance I will run all the numbers and calculate the illuminated field size with the 50mm secondary for you, if I can find all the old tube and focuser specs I had from my old scope. My gut feeling however is that it should be ok.

CS-John B

[Lee]

Thanks guys for the advice.
Eric - checked the T-ring - it does come apart (3 allen screws), but on the weekend I did an experiment with the SLR body and the scope, still couldn't get focus holding the body against the bare focuser (no adaptors at all) - so I still need more in focus.
I might make an article out of it - might be a warning of what not to do!
Fingers crossed!

[EzyStyles]

are you using a R&P focuser or crayford? the crayfords are lower profile.

[Lee]

Already got a crayford.....

[EzyStyles]

:shrug: :shrug: i guess the only way is to cut poor tubby, JMI low profile focuser or move mirror closer. i can't think of any other options.

[ballaratdragons]

just cut the tube in half and make knockies!

[gbeal]

Lee,
I would cut the tube only as a last resort. The first things to try are what you already tried, removing the T ring etc to get the body as close to the focuser as you can. I used a lower focuser as well, but this is a cost which you may not want or require. Try longer collimation screws as well, shifting the primary towards the secondary and sometimes this can be all that is needed. I would aim to have infinity focus with the DSLR, and about 2 mm's in focus just in case. Any more is wasted.
Lastly, how does the primary cell attach? Is it with three screws/bolts into the tube, or an annulus ring with numerous screws? If three screws/bolts you could just bore three new ones a little closer, and "patch" the existing ones. If the annulus, at least your rough cut will be hidden.
Gary

[Lee]

Still contemplating its fate!

One hassle with moving it all "just enough" is that my 20mm Plossl likely won't focus - it currently focuses at the near end of out-focus - at least moving it a bigger amount, and using an equivalent extension solves this.

The primary cell attaches by an annulus ring.... which will cover my *clean* cut :P - I'm pretty handy with a pair of tin snips....

GS/Synta - watch this thread - make Newts imaging ready out of the box!

[Garyh]

Chop it!! Lee.....:thumbsup:
Seriously its all a compromise between tube diameter, focuser height, secondary size and how far the tube extends past the secondary etc..
With a few quick calculations your 50mm is too small, if you go up to 63mm which Eric has in his that should give you a much larger field of illumination (about 20mm, with some guess work with your dimensions) at 100% illumination which would not be too bad.
If it was mine and you are going to do a bit of imaging I would just cut it to start and take some long exposures through it to see how bad the vignetting is. Then go from there..
With mine I have a 55mm secondary in my 6" and a low profile focuser which is 45mm high. 100% illumination is nearly 25mm.

Go on Chop the dinosour...:P

Cheers Gary

[rmcpb]

Lee, get a copy of NEWT to check your calcs BEFORE cutting. Also, it has some great info pages on setting a scope up for visual versus photographic use. You will probably find the standard secondary is OK for your purposes, I use mine for visual and took the 1.8" secondary out and replaced it with a 1.5" to great effect visually but it would be a disaster for photography.

Cheers

P.S. Don't use tinsnips for the cut, a fine hacksaw will do a much more controlled job.

[Lee]

I will be measuring and calculating a few times before "the chop" - goint to wait until I have a decent moon, and work out where the infinity focus is with a sheet of card - will give me more ideas of just how far the thing needs to move.
Fine hacksaw - will remember that, thanks.....

[gbeal]

OK, you win, I am with the "CHOP IT" brigade now.
I got some iron cut the other day, and the sheet metal guy used an angle grinder, with a very fine blade/cutter. Worked well.

[Geoff45]

Wouldn't it be easier to move the spider and focuser down a bit? Four new (little) holes for the spider and one new (big) hole for the focuser. If you put the focuser on the opposite side to its present position you could have a reasonable interchangeable setup--maybe have 2 focusers and just move the spider up or down.
Geoff

[Lee]

You are probably right you know!
Hadn't thought of that - the big hole left from the focusers original spot might interfere with the 4 little holes though - will check it out - good idea!
:thumbsup:

edit - didn't see what you added to your post - might try the rotation too....

[Lee]

Update - its all clear - some numbers!

Distance from lens ring of D70 to CCD - approx 42mm
Distance from end of Newt focuser (racked fully in) to prime focus - approx 36mm

Adding adaptors likely to add another 10-15mm or so.....

So need to move the mirror by minimum 20mm or so.....

At least I know a 35mm extender is enough!

For future reference - does anyone know the distance to a 350D CCD from its lens ring????

[Garyh]

Hi Lee,
Not exactly sure but I think its around 44.5mm.
Just work on the distance from the front of the T thread adaptor (side with the screw thread) and add 55mm from that to the ccd sensor. As all T thread adaptors are made so that the focal plane is 55mm back from the front surface. So if your Nikon focuses there should be no probs with other major brand cameras..:thumbsup:
Cheers Gary

[Lee]

Thanks for the tip Gary.... I've already bought a 35mm 2" extension tube - so whichever way I reduce the distance, it will be by 35mm - will be plenty, with some to spare....

[iceman]

yes please!

I had always hoped i'll be able to use my 350D with my 10" newt one day, but I know i'll get the same problems as you.

So if you can document the process, how-to's etc, it'd be VERY helpful for those wanting to image with a newt.

[astro_nutt]

Hi Lee...wrap a length of wide paper ribbon around the circumfirence of the tube so it overlaps...then tape it to the tube..makes a nice straight edge to guide you!
Cheers!

[ausastronomer]

Nope,

A couple of hundred years of Amateur Telescope making has told the astronomical community it is infinitely easier to shorten the tube of a newtonian telescope in this situation than to move the focuser and the spider.

To be perfectly honest, as Gary Beal indicated, it should take less than 30 minutes with an angle grinder to cut the tube to the required length and drill new holes to fasten the primary mirror cell. More import than the time issue, however, his scope will look like it has been done semi professionally rather than look like something a German sniper has used for target practice, with unused holes in it everywhere.

CS-John B.

PS: Lee, when you cut the tube, take your time and make sure you don't "burn the steel". You could also use a Dremel to cut the tube. I cut 1.2mm stainless steel with my dremel. It takes a while but does a neat job.

[Lee]

Watch this space folks over the next week or two..... there may be some cheap 8" Newt parts in the for sale section soon :scared:
hehe

[astro_nutt]

Just a thought....what about making another tube complete with spider, secondary and focuser then just swap the primary over...I know it's a lot more work..but you'll retain the original tube..

[Lee]

I think the extension tube in the original tube soounds much easier.... For the work involved in making a tube, focuser etc, I'd just buy a new scope....

[ausastronomer]

Lee,

I agree, some of these suggestions are making a career out of a very simple job.

CS-John B

[Lee]

Well, I have done it..... 35mm of metal sliced from the bottom of the Newt.... made the most of a visit from my father, and we attacked it together.
Now I need some clear skies to test - I have nothing terrestrial at infinity focus here....
Now - where's my cheshire! I think I may need it.....

Don't look at the pic if you are squeamish (about your beloved scope!)....

[EzyStyles]

:scared: :scared: :scared: tell us how it goes in the end. gluck lee :thumbsup:

[astro_nutt]

Ooops!..sorry Lee..I didn't mean to make it any harder than it is..
I'm sure it'll work out fine!!!
Cheers!

[[1ponders]]

I'd be more concerned with using an angle grinder without a guard :scared::scared::scared:

[Lee]

Was making it difficult to see where we were cutting.... don't try this at home kids! :whistle:

[Starkler]

Isn't that how we all collimate our newts? :confuse3:
:lol:

[davewaldo]

I'm curious how you managed to calculate how much to take off.

If your digital camera doesn't come into focus because you don't have enough in-focus then how do you measure the amount you need?

Its not like you can get the camera any closer without removing the focuser... even then that may not be enough....


Or were you just estimating?

Cheers

Dave.

PS. My 10" Dob arrived and I can't get focus with my 20D. It seems to get close though....

[Lee]

That would be a brave estimate!
No - find the focus point of the Newt like this. Rack the focuser all the way in - I removed the 1.25" adaptor as I intend to use a 2" T adaptor on the camera.
Point the scope at the moon - take a piece of white card and hold at the focuser opening, move back and forth (along a tape measure held against the focuser) and you will see when a focused image is produced - this is where you want the CCD in the camera. In mine it was 36mm from the end of the focuser.
Since the CCD sits about 42mm back in the camera body (measured with carefully lowered toothpick to the side of the CCD), and the T-adaptor takes up 13mm or so, I worked out I needed *at least* 20mm or so extra in-focus.

Because a 35mm extension piece is readily available, I decided on taking 35mm off the tube, this way the camera should easily obtain prime focus, and the 35mm extension tube should allow all my EP's to work exactly as before.

You have a nice big moon tonight - should be easy to work out where the focal plane is relative to the end of the focuser.

I'm going to test the camera on the Newt tonight with the full moon, hope to post a report in this thread before too long.......

[Lee]

:cool:

First light for the new-length Newtonian.....
Rudimentary testing only tonight - reached focus no problem visually with the 35mm extension piece in focuser, and DSLR (D70) focused without.

Image of the moon - not great, but focused - taken at the end of my driveway about 2hr after moonrise in a stiff breeze - scope now seriously needs rebalancing of course, so I had to hold the tube still while the shutter opened. Also forgot to take the thing off ISO 1600 from the other night :doh:

At least it focuses! :party:

Will recollimate soon, then hopefully will punch out some DSO's....


Mike - I'm in the process of putting together an article about the adventure.

[swannies1983]

Hope it's all going well with the new setup! I just went out and purchased a 400D. I plan to use this with my TAL 200K and also 8" Dob (both scopes interchanged on EQ6). Cutting the tube sounds quite drastic as I would have expected a low profile focuser to do the trick :shrug:

[ballaratdragons]

Lee,

if you ever decide to use a Focal Reducer, you may need to hack even more of the tube :lol:

Focal reducers like a LOT of 'in' travel.

[casstony]

Lee, I see you at least took the precaution of getting someone else to do the cutting after removing the safety guard :) How nicely finished does the edge look after cutting with the grinder?

A guy I know put a larger diameter disc on the same size grinder you were using - the extra tip speed and forces generated caused the thing to fly apart - he's now minus one eye.

[mick pinner]

just a hint for the tube cutters out there, as some may know l am a spray painter/panel beater and at work we use air operated panel shears for cutting steel up to 1.5mm, most panel shops use these shears and they will make a flawless cut. l would think that for a six pack or a few dollars it would take a friendly panel shop around 10 min to cut. just a thought.

[Lee]

The 1mm thickness discs do make a nice clean cut, just follow a carefully measured, remeasured, checked and rechecked guide-line, and you'll be fine!

[Manav]

I might have to do this soon. Did you end up documenting the process?

Ta