Seeing Stars from a Well

[Tropo-Bob]

I was again told a version of this story when doing Astronomy Outreach last night. Basically, the story goes that my father/uncle/family friend said that when he dug wells, it was so dark down there that you could look up and see the stars.


About 20 years ago, I went on a tour of the Mt Isa Mines and I was able to look up a shaft from deep underground to the sky and only saw a small circle of blue sky. There absolutely were no stars visible and the sky was not dark, so I assume that this is just a myth.


However, it is surprising how often this tall tale is told and how difficult it is to debunk. I assume others have heard the myth, but has anybody had an experience that could lend any substance to it? (Digging wells at twilight or at night does not count!)

[xelasnave]

Yes if you fall down the well you see stars.

[deanm]

Mr Evans - you are outrageous!

Dean

[astroron]

I have to agree with you ,it is a myth.
Have you ever tried to look at Alpha Cent through a finder scope in the middle of the day,?
It is so minuscule ,so I don't see just because you are in a well it would make any difference,in fact one would think that looking up at a small bright area of the sky would make it even harder.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

It works if there is water in the well

[julianh72]

It's a myth:

http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q241.html
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/homework/s95616.htm

[ralph1]

The only star I've seen in the day is sirius, without the assistance of a well, although the sun was still low on the horizon. I suspect I could see down to betelgeuse or so on a really good morning but it would be difficult.

[deanm]

It's all signal-to-noise ratio (SNR).

During the day, non-absorbed sunlight transmitted through our atmosphere makes the sky appear blue. There is also lots of light scattering, which makes the whole sky optically bright (in space, without atmosphere, the 'sky' is black, even when looking near the sun).

If the atmospheric brightness ( = 'noise') during the day exceeds the optical magnitude ( = 'signal') of the star/planet/UFO, you can't see them.

Being down a well would have the same effect as looking up through PVC piping - nix (Sorry, Pluto!) - it doesn't change the SNR.

Dean

[xelasnave]

Well reasoned Dean.
I have had people (2 at the pub) tell me they could see stars down one of the deep mine shafts near town (Drake)...

I presented a similar argument to yours but backed off as it was clear they thought I was calling them liars... So I caved in with..."really I did not think that shaft was so deep"
They were happy ...

And who told you my real name are you working for the government?

[deanm]

Government? Which governm... [click]...[bzzzz]..........

[Blue Skies]

There have been only two "stars" I've seen by day - and they were both planets! Oh, that should be three - I remember seeing Comet McNaught naked-eye as a -6 mag star just after perihelion as well.

Jupiter I saw once only because it right next to the Moon before and after a daytime occultation.

The more relevant one to this topic involves Venus, which most people know is bright enough to see during the day, anyway. In my younger days I used to do competitive sailing, and on this day there were about five of us on an Endeavour 24 floating about on the Swan River, waiting from some breeze so we could start the race. I looked up at the top of the mast to see what the wind vane was doing, and noticed Venus not far away from the zenith. I was able to point this out to the others on the boat and with the aid of the mast top as a focus point they were all able to see it, even though it was the middle of the day.

None of them required being down a well to see.

The other alternative to the stars from the bottom of a well story is reading about certain narrow canyons around the world affording the same view. I've never had the chance to test it, but my experience thinks it would be unlikely, however.

[Wavytone]

Hmm... Disagree - I'd say it is just - and only just - possible if:

- the sun is less than 10 degrees elevation (ie sunset/sunrise), where the limiting magnitude naked eye is -2.5;

- the object happened to be Mars or Jupiter near maximum brightness, as they can exceed -2.5. Venus can be brighter but can't be overhead so that's ruled out.

- the well was exactly at the right latitude corresponding to the declination of these +/- a degree, which suggests close to the equator;

- you were in the well at exactly the right time, ie consult an accurate ephemeris and have an accurate clock.

In conclusion therefore it's extremely unlikely though not totally impossible.

And yes Venus is visible quite easily in broad daylight if you know where to look, this is not all that difficult.

[ralph1]

But when Mars and Jupiter are near or at maximum brightness they are at opposition so they would only be high overhead around midnight. To appear overhead at sunrise/sunset they would need to be around quadrature, appearing significantly fainter.

Also, if venus is directly overhead it should be easy to see regardless of the sun's altitude so it could be seen from the bottom of a well.

Just this afternoon when I was walking outside I looked up and saw venus shining brightly 1/2 hour before sunset. I looked up and to the right and saw Jupiter, much fainter but still easily held in vision. I suspect the factor that made that work was the wispy cloud which gave my eye something to focus on.

[julianh72]

I managed to see Jupiter with the naked eye about a month ago at about 3:00 pm in the north-east at an altitude of about 30 degrees - full sunlight, well before sunset, and well away from opposition and maximum brightness.

I had been watching the Sun with my 130 mm scope (with a full Aperture filter of course!) and thought I would take a look at Jupiter in the daytime, which I had never done before. I slewed the GoTo mount to track Jupiter, took off the solar filter, and there it was. Against the bright blue sky, it looked like an almost featureless white ball, with just the slightest hint of the two main equatorial belts.

As luck would have it, from my vantage point in the backyard, Jupiter was positioned just between two tree tops, which gave me a vusual reference point for a naked eye search, and after a minute or so of trying averted vision, I managed to make out a faint "star" against the blue daylight sky.

[andyc]

I've seen Venus in broad daylight on many occasions, one memorable time was around mid-day on a beach in northwest Scotland, with the Sun a little higher than Venus, both over 40deg alt. Venus at greatest elongation and a helpful low last quarter Moon for triangulation ... [which, incidentally, pins the date to 12th July 1993!] It's really quite easy on a good haze-free day when you know where to look, easier when there's something to focus on, like the Moon or a little cloud - and a good challenge wherever you are relaxing in the world :).

The best I've done for other naked-eye and pre-sunset objects is Jupiter just before sunset, and Comet McNaught just before perihelion - McNaught was about as bright as Venus which wasn't so far away. That was quite special because the Sun was peeping out of a layer of cloud really not all that far away, gave an impression somehow of 'solar system' that I've rarely experienced - Sun, comet, planet all there. It looked a lot like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C/2006_P1#/media/File:Comet_McNaught.jpg)in binoculars around sunset.

Never seen any pre-sunset stars though, and I'm sure for the reasons others have put that stars from a well is an urban myth...

[skysurfer]

The well or deep pit story is absolutely nonsense. Moreover, the eyes are slightly dark-adapted, so the smapp piece of blue sky appears even brighter and diminishes the chance of seeing any stars.

But naked eye sightings of planets or stars ?

My experiences are Venus (easy) and sometimes Jupiter shortly before sunset or after sunrise.
Sirius ? Once on a late March 1986 afternoon I was in Canberra and looked up Sirius with an 80mm scope and watched along the tube and saw barely the star.
Later attempts (until Feb 2015) failed unless once a few mins before sunset with Sirius 60+ degrees high (South Africa).
Other stars (Canopus, Arcturus, Alpha Centauri) I sighted once around sunset / rise, but is barely possible.

With a telescope, is a different story. Stars till +1.5 can be sighted in daytime and recently (14 May) I spotted a Mercury crescent only 20 degrees from the Sun with only +1.5 brightness. A star of +1.5 is easier.
Last Feb I looked up Canopus and Betelgeuse with the telescope in an afternoon (Sun 40 degrees high) and looked with 10x50s along the tube and found both !

This requires a very transparent blue sky, good seeing and, of course, the telescope pointed exactly and focused properly.

[Stefan Buda]

Sorry guys, you are all wrong! Of course you can see one star at least once a year at noon if you dig your well between the two Tropic latitudes.:) Sorry I couldn't resist.

[Paul Haese]

The only way you will see stars down the bottom of a well is if someone throws something heavy down the well onto your head. I can almost guarantee you will see stars then. :P

Seriously, though. There are stars that can be observed during day light hours. Surveyors before the advent of GPS systems (I did this for employment in the Army as a cartographic technician) used stars during the day to work out the position of survey points and also to get longitude and latitude from a position. Most often we would use the Sun and do sun obs for the most accurate timings and positioning. This was mainly to establish survey marks for horizontal and vertical control in mapping. You can only use the brighter stars but they can be seen through a theodolite and once you have sighted the stars you will see them naked eye as well. However, the myth that the sky goes dark down a well is simply that. Sunlight is scattered in the atmosphere and that light cannot be negated by being down a deep well or hole.

[N1]

You could install a pair of lenses across the top of the well, and an eyepiece at the bottom. :P

Interesting subject, and one where small telescopes do an extremely good job.

Also discussed here. (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=113724)

[g__day]

I doubt this would ever work anywhere close to the equator; a long way from the equator with the Sun close to your local horizon, very high up a mountain, in very clear still air - with a very bright star directly overhead... just maybe.

You would need a lot of factors to be in the Goldilocks ("Just right") zone to have a chance I reckon.

[AussieTrooper]

I remember seeing this tried out some time ago by either a high school or university group in the UK. They worked out a time when a bright star would be visible, and tested it out. Might have been Vega.
They saw nothing.

[RobinClayton]

I remember being told this theory by a teacher in high school, maybe about 40 years ago now. He was serious that deep wells could be used for observing. I thought it didn't make sense at the time and the previous replies confirm it was a myth. This was a teacher I had a lot of respect for, but this one comment just didn't gel at the time.

The myth has been around a very long time.

[julianh72]

Antares (Mag 1.07) passes within about 1 degree north of the zenith at my location (Brisbane) in early November at around 1:30 pm.

I'll have to dig a well and look straight up to test the theory for myself. :lol:

(Or maybe I'll just head outside and look straight up to see if I can spot it with binoculars and naked eye.)

[Rob_K]

OMG, it's full of........ um, er BLUE! ;) :lol:

Cheers -

[Steffen]

I can totally believe that. Of course, you'd have to be down there at night... ;)