Waste of life and potential

[graham.hobart]

So they executed Myuran and Andrew.
South East Asia's drugs cartels will still grind on unhappily.
Those with a literal biblical bent may say "an eye for an eye"
others May say if they can't do the (eternal) time, don't do the crime.
Here's what I say. Or rather Portia in The Merchant of Venice " by Wm Shakespeare ...
The quality of mercy is not strain'd
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath : it is twice blessed;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes
After all the comradery of recent national days we let two reformed and inspiring ( in the prison system , no one was asking for a pardon, just another chance) prisoners get mowed down - for what ?
Mercy costs us nothing. We have all been given a second chance at something.
I find it utterly repulsive. My 2 cents
And before anyone wades in with the " you haven't seen the harm drugs do " yes I have , for a number of years it was my job.
Yet I say again, mercy.
Second chances folks. Redemption. New starts .
A 24 yr old and a 21 yr old when arrested. Hardly international drug baron material, but even so, how many mistakes on the road to adUlthood?
Graz

[LewisM]

I feel the same.

Killing the people who are in it just for money (to what end they use that money varies) - the mules - is pointless and does NOTHING whatsoever to hinder the industry - there will always be others willing to risk it.

In short, killing does nothing to the drug industry at all. It's just a pointless, stupid temporary knee-jerk reaction to a problem.

[AstralTraveller]

I'm old enough to remember Nixon declaring 'war on drugs' back in 1971. Forty four years later drug use is more prevalent than it was then and there are more dangerous drugs available. The 'war' hasn't worked! All we have done is transfer truly astronomical amounts of money to crime lords, entrench corruption in our police and politicians and ruin, or end, a lot of lives. We need a new strategy.

BTW I agree with the sentiments of the OP but I think Graham has misrepresented the intent of Matthew 5:28. The New King James text says:

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

I don't have a religious bone in my body and I don't fully agree with these sentiments (and the rest of Matthew 5 has some pretty awful stuff) but it isn't expressing approval for vengeful behaviour.

[Regulus]

A waste. And there are others sitting in gaol for abetting them in the attempt. They may not have been good people then, but I think they grew up and 'grew' to be good people.
Indonesia has lost out here given the work they were doing with prisoners. They (Indonesia) wants the rehabilitation programs they started continued, but without the head, the body will die.
For the sake of their own prison system they should have let them live.

[OzStarGazer]

They rehabilitated them just to kill them. It sounds absurd. Really.

[linstar88]

This is a very intelligent approach to understanding some of the problems faced associated with drug addicts/users & social ridicule of these victims. We need more people like Dr. Gabor Mate to stand up & speak out for any real positive changes to take effect.
Hope this short clip sheds some light on a dark subject for some.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfR3v7inC7Y

"Ignorance is mankind's greatest sin"
quote from Gautama Buddha (founder of Buddhism)

Peace :)

Guy

[BPO]

Or... Don't traffic illegal narcotics in countries with death penalties for such offenses. We demand foreigners respect our own laws whenever they visit.

[timelord]

Any one considered what if they had gotten away with it? 8 mill worth of heroin would have caused some major misery for lots of people and in the meantime rehab for these two cashed up scumbags would not be an option but a route to more criminallity.
As for the death penalty if it was ok for the Bali bombers then---------

[barx1963]

Yes, that is true, and no one is asking the Indonesians not to enforce there laws. The death penalty is only one option under the law there. They have a whole system of clemency options available under their law, and these 2 guys from what I could see where prime candidates for clemency. The rules were put there to allow for cases of rehabilitation to be recognised by the granting of clemency, but it wasn't politically convenient to do so.
One of the reasons why I strongly oppose the death penalty is that it ends up becoming a political toy, using it to demonstrate "toughness" is too easy.

Malcolm

[BPO]

They knowingly trafficked illegal narcotics in a country that regularly executes drug offenders. I'm no fan or advocate of capital punishment, but these guys knew exactly what they were getting themselves into. Would the people who demanded clemency for this pair have cared about them if they weren't Australians? Not likely.

[GrahamL]

I think i was 20 when I found a friend I'd grown up with dead of a heroin overdose , he happened to live behind me at the time and I'd check on him as I knew how his life had derailed , nothing pretty about his death , he'd some sort of hemorrhage as he died , coughed blood everywhere on that lime green pillow he lay on . The sureal talk with police in the back yard as they packed him away ,picking up the bunch of toe tags dropped on the floor and all the other stuff , all the medical gloves thrown at a bin in the bathroom , missed completely , at days end go pick his step daughter up from school.

My friends younger brother lost it after the death and jumped a bridge a couple of years later I heard.

I thought often of these two recently and still can't come round to thinking that state sanctioned killing is either an answer or a deterrent to involvement in narcotics .

[Hagar]

:( Some really mixed emotions on this topic. I don't see the execution achieved anything but had they not been caught how many of our children may have died as a result of their actions. :(

[doppler]

Did any of the bali bombers get death sentences?

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/its-lucky-the-bali-bombers-didnt-have-drugs-on-them-2015-2

I would have thought it would have been better policing for the AFP to keep quiet and follow the mules back to their final destination in Australia and try and get some of king pins?

[AndrewJ]

Yep, but in this case, the AFP knew exactly what was going on.
All they had to do was walk up to them when boarding and whisper in their ears that they would be undergoing a full body search when they came back.

One interesting thing also mentioned today ( that i had not heard before and am not 100% sure is true ) was that some of the people bringing drugs into Indonesia who were caught have been given life sentences, but those coming to take it out got death.
If that is true, then there is something seriously wrong.
If those executed today were taking drugs in, i could possibly understand what has happened, but not when they were going there to get the drugs.
I suspect they were just used as berley, and when the big fish weren't caught, someone had to suffer to "save face".
Time will tell

Andrew

[clive milne]

That strategy didn't work out so well for Gary Webb and Dany Casolaro.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/09/08/a-mexican-plane-crash-the-cia-and-33-tons-of-cocaine/?wpmp_switcher=mobile

So there is that.

[clive milne]

Meanwhile, in Afghanistan:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/28/world/asia/28intel.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[clive milne]

https://clareflourish.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/afghan-opium.jpg

[marc4darkskies]

What beautiful, gentle words! Many would do well to commit them to memory! They contrast so starkly with the brutality, cruelty and senselessness of this horrible event. The decision to go ahead with the executions last night sickened me. A shamefully inhumane and ignorant decision IMO.

Though I happen to be a supporter of the death penalty for the most heinous and premeditated of murders and when there is no doubt about guilt, no sentence should preclude the administering of mercy and compassion when it is so clearly earned as it was, by all accounts, in this case.

[hobbit]

From the commonwealth criminal code



Whilst I'm against the death penalty in general, I'm very much against implementing when the case is still before the courts.

[AndrewJ]

That didnt work very well tho did it, and if as stated, the ones they have caught bringing stuff in werent given death sentences, why not???

Many people believe part of the reason is the police/army etc are getting a cut, just as they were with people trafficking.
I suspect what really goes on there is far more incestuous than we are being told at present. It will be interesting to see what facts/accusations on what really happened start leaking out, now that there is no need to be polite.

Andrew

[strongmanmike]

While we are likely to get some hard line eye for an eye, they should'a known better, what they did would have harmed others and other unforgiving sentiments on this topic that in my opinion completely miss the point here, I would really truly like to think that the vast bulk of us think essentially the same way as you Graham and Marcus because in the end without mercy what do we all become....?

Mike

[doppler]

And the Indonesian police must have got some nice bribes from the suppliers, I didn't see any of them on death row?

[Eratosthenes]

the USA executes prisoners at record levels.

Can we pose the same questions and judgements against the USA and other nations that have capital punishment.

Australia also had capital punishment until about 50 years ago. (and many of the people executed were Indigenous Australians, even though they were not recognised as people until 1967.)

This issue is even more complex when we look in the mirror.

How many civilians have died in wars carried out by western nations?

Do we value life in a morally universal way, or are we to be selective and hypocritical? Saudi Arabia carried out several dozen beheading executions in public streets just in one month last year.

back to my night sky viewing

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2014/03/amnesty-executions-1-1024x640.jpg&w=1484

[xelasnave]

The world needs a non criminal approach to drugs.
The market thrieves because criminalisation is the reason the business is so profitable.
I believe addictions would probably be less in an environment when drug are legal but the Government controls marketing.
The drug industry should not be run by criminals.
Back to the thread.
Any loss of life is sad particularly if avoidable.

[entity62]

Two lads loose there life because of a very poor decision and our Polly's have a fit. 1 million iraqis murdered by us and not a boo

[xelasnave]

It is all about public and therefore political attention.
Peter mentioned beheadings 84 last year I recall.
We could make a list.

[speach]

For a start off let me say I do not support the death penalty.
But the new pres of Indonesia in his election stated that he would be executing drug traffickers. So do we expect him to break his promises that he was elected on? He's not Tony Abbott after all.

[AstralTraveller]

True, but how often do pollies break promises to do the wrong thing?

[BPO]

But... But... Aussies like Americans!

Therein lies the difference. Right?

[Visionary]

Killing is killing, murder is murder, state sanctioned killing is murder.

[AussieTrooper]

Criminals often 'rehabilitate' until they are released back into their pool of victims.

Whether or not people agree with the death penalty, these guys knew what they were doing was wrong, they knew the penalty, they knew the effect on users, they knew the effect on thier friends and family if caught, and not only did they go ahead with it, they dragged others into it.

It's hard to feel any sympathy for them. The whole thing is horrible. Not one bit of good has come from any of it.

[clive milne]

I don't think our pollies give a rat's about those two lads.
I suspect uncle Tony rubbed his hands with glee at the prospect of a media circus surrounding their execution knowing it would serve as an excellent way to deflect public attention away from domestic politics.

Contrast the rhetoric and outrage surrounding this issue with the level of compassion and understanding he candidly shows for our lads, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPmpswEJ-sg

[LewisM]

1 million Iraqis... please elucidate where you contrived this figure. Most reports put it closer to 500,000, to as "few" as 121,000.




We do? Well, maybe the Politicians.

I personally find US foreign policy and actions abhorrent, despicable, and rife with double standard.

[clive milne]

I think the number of Iraqis that died directly from violence as a result of the war is just over 100,000. The larger figure (which I believe runs into the millions - mostly children) includes those that are estimated to have died as a result of the punitive sanctions which were imposed and the destruction of infrastructure (like water treatment plants and power stations)



I feel compassion for the people of the US, they have been largely blamed for an in-conscionable foreign policy. The truth is, the US government is the best democracy money can buy. To understand who formulates US policy, you need look no further than the demographic of people who fund (both sides of) the election campaigns and who owns or controls the media. They simply use America as a proxy bully to wage their wars for them.

[ausastronomer]

My sentiments exactly. A deaf dumb and blind person is fully aware of the penalties for trafficking of narcotics in South East Asia. They knew the risk before they committed the crime. They took the risk, got caught and paid the ultimate price.

Maybe this event will make some other young people think twice before committing the same crime.

Cheers,
John B

[AussieTrooper]

There's a simple way to stop Indonesia's death penalty.

Don't commit crimes there.

[AstralTraveller]

Sadly, I doubt it. It's not as though the death penalty or long prison terms are anything new. Soon enough the publicity will die down and another round of young people will think 'it won't happen to me'; but it will. We will see more 'mules' slaughtered while the Mr Bigs continue to live in their mansions undisturbed by either the police or their conscience.

[MortonH]

True, but I don't see that they're intrinsically worse than anyone else. Every country looks out for itself, and does so by whatever methods they can get away with. The US was the biggest power in the world so it had more to protect and could get away with more than anyone else.

In another 100 years (or sooner) people will likely be debating China's foreign policy in the same way.

[N1]

Capital punishment as a standard measure is based on one of 2 things:

1. a claim to absolute, infalsifiable truth (i.e. in establishing beyond ALL - not just reasonable doubt - that somebody is guilty), and to do this EVERY TIME;

or

2. accepting that innocent people are killed in the process.

Anyone who has had the remotest dealings with science knows that 1. is impossible to achieve, leaving 2. as the only other basis. And that is so unbelievably wrong, it is sickening.

Many say just don't commit the crime when you are there. Great! What if you didn't do anything and get arrested anyway? What if somebody placed heroin in your luggage, over which you have no control between check-in and baggage collection. Or what if someone you call a friend gives you a bag containing drugs, and you then don't even get a chance to explain yourself properly in court because you are not provided with an interpreter. This may well be what happened to the woman that was spared this week. Her ultimate mistake might have been not checking her bag properly, i.e. cut open the lining. And for that, she would have been put to death as well, escaping (for now) only because her former "friend" back in the Philipines finally came to her senses.

I therefore cannot accept science as the best way to explain the world and support the death penalty at the same time.

[Alchemy]

So what's abortion?.. Given its legally sanctioned in this country.

And then there's the possibility of state sanctioned euthanasia laws right here in Australia.

And how many old people are just helped into the grave with a bit of morphine.

All right here in our own backyard.

[AndrewJ]

Not necessarily.
I think the catch cry is that killing the couriers is not the answer.
Based on your logic of the supply chain, maybe we should kill all the people who buy "illicit" drugs locally, and the couriers wouldn't have a market.


If you offer someone who has nothing enough, they will do whatever you ask. History has proven that that will never change .
And again, based on what has been reported, why have those who import drugs to Indonesia got life and those who take it out got death???
The logic in that confuses me.

That said, Alcohol and cigarettes still cause way more harm, but they are socially acceptable ( in that they provide lots of tax to the govt )
I see, based on the latest IBAC case down here, that Italian wine is a good bribe for leeching money from the school system.

I dont condone what the traffickers did, but i do suspect they were also victims of a corrupt regime and a corrupt system.
Nothing will change.

Andrew

[AussieTrooper]

These people were not people with 'nothing'. I can understand a farmer in arid Afghanistan growing opium to feed his family. Criminal, yes, but definitely worthy of a little understanding.

But these guys come from Australia, one of the worlds richest countries. There is no excuse for this. None. The death and misery that they would have inflicted upon those whose lives are horrible enough that heroin looks like a good alternative, does not bear contemplating.

Sukumaran and Chang are no mere 'mules' either. They were the bosses in this, which is why they were executed, whilst the mules they roped into it got jail instead.

It's sad to see executions anywhere, but as long as people like Chang and Sukumaran are happy to inflict misery and death on others in the pursuit of the almighty dollar, they will continue.

[Paul Haese]

Lots ideas and thoughts here.

For the record I am opposed to the death sentence except for crimes against children and arsonists. Even still I abhor the death sentence for deterrent value. It does not work and never has worked as a deterrent.

That said, and having travelled through Asia a lot, ones arrival into Indonesia, it clearly sign posted that the death penalty is applied for drug trafficking. Only idiots think they can do this and get past the guards. Some might get past but the odds are not good.

Yes trafficking is brought on because of prohibition and there are all sorts of arguments for removing prohibition, but that is not likely to happen in a hurry and it will require all sorts of controls and monitoring for addicts etc. So for now we live in the prohibition paradigm.

I find it hard to believe though that murder, child molesting and terrorism in Indonesia fails to regularly attract the death penalty regularly and yet lots of young people are on death row for trafficking drugs. It's an odd thing to enforce and quite frankly the Indonesians should be doing something about the producers of hard core drugs rather than address the middle men. I know from experience that bribing officials is rife in Indonesia. Even travelling from one part of the country to another requires a gratuity in some parts.

An interesting notion I heard today is that the only time Aussies get up in arms about Indonesia having the death penalty is when an Aussie is about to die. In between those times we say very little as a country and don't appear to be committed to the cause. And; I have to say I agree with this sentiment. Many people die in the mean time.

Should they have been spared? Well from all accounts they had been rehabilitated and that is surely the primary reason for incarceration; but they were not incarcerated, they were sentenced to death and held in custody awaiting that sentence. It's a subtle distinction, they were already dead men walking. So in that case it was up to the President to spare them. Should he have spared them? Well from our point of view, it is an absolute. However, the Presidents position is very precarious and politically he could not be seen as being soft and that might have brought on a coup from hardliners had he decided to spare them. It might not have either. It might have started to the beginning of social reform in the their society. We shall never know. Also bear in mind that Corby was released recently and that might have played a part in the Presidents decision.

I feel for the families who must now bear this sorrow and pain. Their pain will last for many years to come. I have no doubt that Barlow and Chambers family are still grieving the loss of them.

I think Australia ought to tread carefully here and not say too much or act too hastily. A lot rides on our relationship with Indonesia and there is more to all this than an outrage of the operation of their laws which some people chose to ignore.

That all aside I think they should have been given clemency because they had truly worked hard on giving something back and perhaps their sentence could have been commuted to a life sentence. A disappointing outcome altogether.

[KenGee]

I read through all of these post, my first response would be that people don't let the ignorance of the facts get in the way of their opinion.

I don't support the death penalty but respect every countries right to make and enforce their own laws.

When you travel to other countries then you should follow their laws, its a simple idea.

These guys were not merely dumb mules they were the organisers. They talked the other seven into breaking the la .

There was no question about whether they were guilty or not.They asked for mercy and didn't get it.

The fact they found Jesus is not uncommon in prison. The fact that the happy clappers started lobbing our pollies and news providers demonstrates just how misguided they are. Perhaps they should be more organised against kiddie fiddling Pastors and priests.

The AFP did the right thing and all of us would want other countries police forces to alert us to law breaking in own country. Or do you want them to make moral judgments?

[AndrewJ]

Gday Ben

It was more a metaphor for everyone has a price where they will do stuff for profit if they think there is a good chance they will get away with it.
They were part of a capitalist driven system of supply and demand.
The people who buy the product buy it willingly ( at first ).



Just look at how many so called "good" people ( who are ridiculously well paid ) are proving to be corrupt in this country.
I can draw a distinction between people who "choose" to use drugs, vs people who are targetted as innocent collateral damage.
Ie should lawyers/financial advisors etc who rip people off to the point where they suicide due to the shame of being destitute be subject to the death penalty???
Its not a simple problem.

Andrew

[Neutronstar]

These two guys committed a crime.
A greater crime was committed upon them.

[Bart]

I'm really over hearing about this and haven't said much about it. Until now and this is all that I will say.

They were in clear knowledge of the risk and punishment. They still went ahead and tried to do something that has the potential to kill people, so to me, they are murderers themselves. When they knew the risks and decided to still do the crime, they forfeited their rights to be treated as human beings and put that right into the hands of their peers. To me, I don't care about all the crap about bribes and rigged court rooms, it comes back to the basic conscious decision to commit a crime that has far reaching impact on any community.

Clearly, I would not want this to happen in my family, but the bleeding hearts and artists need a good kick up the ****. What is a wrong is a wrong.

[Renato1]

I am in full support of capital punishment.

There is not one single case of recidivist behaviour where it has been implemented. Not one single rapist, murderer, child abuser, terrorist or drug runner has ever re-offended.
Regards,
Renato

[sn1987a]

I'm with Gandalf on this one.

[tlgerdes]

Why do you put arsonists in the same category as children? :lol: What would be a crime against an arsonist, taking away his matches :D

[jenchris]

Well, I guess at least we ask them nicely.
I reckon those two being put away was payback for turning back the boats.
TA had to make out he was really upset to balance the books about how upset Wododo was to have several thousand economic refugees travel plans thwarted by the Navy.

[mr bruess]

Going back as far as the Balibo five it seems to me that Indonesia has never been a particularly good neighbour or friend. Once again they've proven themselves immature, spiteful and petulent.

[jenchris]

That 600 million aid they get should go to Nepal this year
If Oz is worried about the trade, I guess you could pay the 600 million to the farmers and keep the stock of cattle for the locals or sell elsewhere.

[gregbradley]

Some nice posts here expousing the value of life and its to be cherished. I like the way Aussies found this to be horrifying and I did not really expect our politicians to get so upset. I found this very reassuring and a bit surprising. We really do have a good country here.

I think a couple of salient points here.

#1 - Do you really trust a Government with the right to kill its citizens because of crimes? (of course they get it right 100% of the time correct??). Can that then become perverted for political reasons to get rid of an opponent. Some people are very good at framing others and making them look bad.

# 2 - The main legal issue with the death penalty is there is never 100% certainty of guilt. So then in those few cases where they get it wrong then the Government would then become guilty of murder wouldn't it?

#3 - There is a difference in viewpoint between western countries like Australia and eastern/Asian countries. Life is precious here but in some countries with a high population etc life is not considered the same way so you get this difference of viewpoint about the importance of a life. That basically as far as I can see it is what is in play here. The difference in viewpoint about the value of a life.

#4 - The basic assumption here also is that a criminal cannot be reformed therefore its better to give them the death penalty to get rid of them. This is not true. A persons right to their own life is a basic human right and Govts who should be setting a good example should honour that. Otherwise the set the tone for a barbarism and appeal to the lowest common denominator in their society. In a way they are letting criminals set the tone of the justice system. They killed directly or indirectly so its Ok if we kill.

I like the way the Australian Govt got rid of the death penalty some time ago and rose above this and strove to be run at a higher level. Its something we should be thankful for.

Greg.

[doppler]

I don't think that it is fair to put drug users / suppliers in the same catagory as rapists, murderers, terrorists etc. these crimes are forced upon inocent people, but drug use is a choice all participants have willingly made for themselves. Alcohol and tobaco kill more people than illegal drugs but that's okay because they are legal to posses and trade in.

[Paul Haese]

You know very well what I mean Trev; but I get your point. I should have put crimes against children and the crimes of arsonists. ;)

[Paul Haese]

It might interest you to know that the last person executed in Australia was in fact innocent of the crime for which he was executed. Ballistics has subsequently shown that a prison guard killed another prison guard by accident and it was believed at the time that Ryan had in fact killed the guard. And; the felony murder rule was not applied in this case either.

Also in the last 10 years at least 5 people have been spared of the death penalty for crimes they did not commit in the US. Who knows how many people in the past have been killed for crimes they did not commit there.

So maybe if you were framed for a crime or happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time that attracted the death penalty you might think otherwise. It does happen.

[tlgerdes]

Paul your slip was too delicious to let go of, and I thought this thread needed something lighter.:P

Plus, I've never been known to be serious.

[Renato1]

Perhaps if you read the paper, you'll see that there are hundreds of examples of people who have raped and abused children dozens of times, and all were certified as reformed by parole boards. And there are quite a few who have killed, been released and killed again.

Today, modern forensic science and CCTV cameras and mobile phones makes us more certain than ever about who committed a crime. I can't get all touchy feely about felons and heinous killers.
Regards,
Renato

[mental4astro]

I grew up in Redfern and Surry Hills. Growing up I saw many of my school mates and other kids from my neighbourhood fall to the needle. I cannot count the number of times I called for ambo's to people who had overdosed. My parents had me do a first aide course as a kid - twice I ended up using these skills to help people in terrible trouble from overdosing. And calling the ambo's to pick up the dead.

I also grew up with these drug dealers. Peddlers of death I call them. Everyone knew who these scumbags were. Crap, I even had a punch up with one of these pricks as a teen. The Sydney Police Centre was ten blocks away from my home, and they were helpless to stop this carnage. I have the utmost respect for the people who wear the uniform. They have nasty job to do sometimes.

Today I still see the way this crap rips families apart and destroys lives. The local junkies keep me on my toes, and wary for my family.

The junkies I pity, and pray for them.

The scum that looks to make money from dealing death, I have nothing for.

A society that has the guts to NOT have the death penalty is a high one. But when I am reminded of the saddness and death that surrounded me growing up, I do sometimes wonder.

[graham.hobart]

I admire the honesty of posters and glad I started it, as it is a mirror on our society, how we look at each other, how we look at crime in general, and how we compute the recent events.
I thank those of you for being honest, up front and sometimes gladiatorial about what is a contentious subject.
There is no judgement here, as we are lucky we share the love of dark skies and sometimes solitude, as our narcotic.
I have been on this website for a few years now and mostly I have had positive experiences. Sometimes we forget how we extend our selves in the outer world- one not obsessed by filters, sensors, aperture or clear sky index.
I had a conversation tonight with a friend who is quite worldly, is an artist who sells his paintings for thousands of dollars yet bucks and puts his hand up over his eyes over a discussion of light speed and red shift.
We my friends (I'm talking to all of you posters), are the arbiters of something wonderful. Share this gift.
And for the hopeless romantics, I started this post with a quote and I'll end it (I hope) with this one.....
From 1818
John Keats
Probably a lament for those sleep starved astronomers.....
"O Magic sleep!, O comfortable bird,
That broodest O' er that troubled sea of mind.
Till it is hushed and smooth"
Let that put these things to rest
Graham

[mr bruess]

yes drugs is bad and the bali duo were punished. But they never ever deserved to die. they paid for their crimes with 10 years jail and changed for the better. one a pastor and another a painter.
Drugs is a choice. people take it by their own volition. drug addicts are not forced to take them.
In my opinion they were murdederd by the Indonesian state. The punishment didn't fit the crime.
if they were in Australia they would have lived and been free men by now.But due to the advice of the Australian Federal Police they are now dead.
The bali bombers got a lighter sentence and are free now.

[Hans Tucker]

Check your facts....Mukias, Amrozi, Inam Samudra were executed in 2008. Others linked were later tracked down and killed by police in shoot outs. Only one or two minor players were their involvement couldn't be fully established were freed.

[Kunama]

Hans, this is the internet, why confuse things here with facts. ;) but you are correct, on 9 Nov 2008 at 12.15am those 3 ceased to be a threat to society and rightly so.

As for the 'Bali9"
If indeed that AFP had refused to follow the directives and waited for these criminals to arrive in Australia, they would now all be free and probably doing their next importation. Which is better for society?

[LewisM]

I agree Matt, but does the crime justify execution? Long/life imprisonment and hard labour, YES, but death? No.

[Kunama]

Perhaps not, but it is their law, their country and perhaps the initial denial of any involvement sealed the fate of these two. Had they accepted responsibility right at the time they were caught and at that time shown some remorse they would probably not have suffered the fate they did.

As you know, the warnings at Indonesia's gateway are clear and unambiguous, one cannot miss the large red and yellow signs at any airport in that country.

I also think that Australia pleading for clemency for the two Australians was a mistake, the pleas should have been for clemency for all nine set to be legally executed that day.

[LewisM]

I believe the Australian Government has made a monumental mistake in their actions, that will have Australian-Indonesia relationship implications for some time.

So typical of a media driven show pony government. Act now, bear the burden of faux-pas later.

[astroron]

Australian Indonesian relations are never very close,even if the politicians paint them as very friendly at times.
President Joko Widodo is not the most popular president and is also beholden to people behind the scenes who would not be very happy if he had granted clemency, considering it was to an Australian and also it was his mantra in coming to office to be tough on drugs with the death penalty being the final sentence.
Australian governments for many years have antagonized Indonesia in many ways,Timor,Dumping refugees on Indonesian shores, boof headed language from our current prime minister toward Indonesia over the last couple of years have not helped to improved the relationship one Iota.
I don't approve of the Death Penalty,But when you flagrantly disregard the laws of the country not once but a couple of times and know the consequences if caught then you should except the verdict of the court.
One other thing,their are another seven young people spending a big part of their lives locked up in jail because of the actions of these two men.
Sympathy for family and friends,but I don't think that these two people deserved any more special treatment than any other countries,including Indonesian citizens in being subject to the rule of law in Indonesia.
Cheers

[AussieTrooper]

That's actually an argument in favour of what Indonesia did. The recidivism rate for drug offences is amongst the highest of all crimes.

The product is still there. The victims are still there. The 'price' is still there.

If these two had been charged in Australia, they'd be free by now and back out dealing death.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Ben

Sorry but to me they arent truly "victims" ( like the bombing victims etc), they buy drugs willingly, even after being warned.
Sure they may get hooked over time ( like smokers and alcoholics ), but they go in with their eyes wide open.
Arbitrarily executing a courier does nothing, and never has.
All it really does is reduce jail costs.
What we need to do is find out why people buy drugs and remove the market. Cant see that happening based on human history.


Just like the tobacco and alcohol industries ?????
Im sorry but i dont discriminate between the three, they all can result in death of the user, and alcohol, more than anything else can result in the death of many others.

Also, if Indonesia is deemed so high and morally mighty, as it has signs up everywhere, why didnt corby etc get executed????
Why only a select few, and why now and what is the criteria???
Its obviously not just trafficking drugs that gets you necked.
If Indonesia executed everyone caught with drugs, i could understand it, but leaving it vague means people will take chances and judges can take bribes. It will be really interesting to see how far the allegations re the judges asking for bribes for a "better" result will go.
As per before, i totally disagree with what these people did,
but using arbitrary executions ( and even worse as a political statement ) isnt the answer.

Andrew

[Eratosthenes]

...are you saying Australia is a hypocritical and racist state?

Picks and chooses when it demands moral principles be applied, and when justice and freedom are values to be defended? Both domestically and on the global stage?

[Kunama]

There is a big distinction between a courier who is found with cannabis and someone who plans a crime and then enlists a number of couriers to carry 8.3 kilos of heroin.

[astroron]

Indonesia is ruled by a different government than when Corby etc was sentenced, also these people were sentenced to death 10 years ago,but the government of the day chose to not proceed with it,but they were still on death row.
President Widodo and his government had said that the death penalty for drugs would be carried out and the would be no clemency for anyone,which up to now has proven fact.
Cheers

[mswhin63]

I think you will find there is a slight difference, the Bali nine altogether there were nine people convicted of those only two receive the death penalty as they were the organisers for the drug couriering.

Also Corbi, The drugs were found in a bag And not on her body and it was considered that it was possible that it was a set up. That was considered to be the reason why there was so much opposition in that particular case as that was considered that baggage handlers were culpable in the importation of drugs. The case was quite strange because it is not economic all to import drugs into Indonesia instead only export drugs out of Indonesia.

The two that have been executed also decided not to implicate the major drug ring within Indonesia where they got the drugs from as well. So I suspect there is a lot of extenuating circumstances in relation to this case.

I believe that the other seven have been sentenced to a long time in prison but not a lot has been mentioned about those. Indonesia could still change their mind in relation to those.

[AndrewJ]

Fully agree, so give em a longer and or harder sentence.
If you dont let em out, they cant reoffend.
Having an arbitrary "you live, you die" line is whats in question for me.

I remember seeing an interview of an English POW coming out of a japanese hell hole and when he was asked if he wanted to kill the worst of the guards once he was free, he replied that it would make him as bad as them.

Andrew

[astroron]

I keep on reading that the death penalty doesn't stop people still trafficking in drugs,well if that don't stop them then long prison sentences won't make any difference either.
This might sound callous, but if you give them life or long sentences they have to be clothed and fed and looked after for anything upto say 50 years, that is a hell of a lot of money.
The prison population in the USA is well over two and a quarter million people in prison as of 2011,can you imagine the cost.?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

I think there will be a few more death penalties carried out in Indonesia before the this year is out.

[Kunama]

Not sure if you're aware or not that during these proceedings in fact 6 of the 'Bali 9' were sentenced to death, Chen, Rush, Nguyen and Norman as well as Chan and Sukumaran.

This death sentence for Chen, Nguyen and Norman was later reduced to life imprisonment by the Appeal Court Judges who decided to spare their lives. Rush later successfully appealed and his death sentence was reduced to life in prison.

I am not familiar with Indonesian customs but it seems that an appeal is treated almost as an insult to the Judges' ruling and can often result in a harsher sentence should the appeal have no merit.

[Kunama]

Obviously the focus is on Indonesia for daring to enforce their own laws in their own country but little notice is given to the fact that the death penalty is carried out in Japan more often than Indonesia, or that there 12 other Australians in custody at the moment who are likely to suffer the same fate.

I personally don't think that Indonesia subscribes to Maconochie's ideas on penology that the primary role of incarceration should be rehabilitation. We say that these two men were rehabilitated and thus deserved to be spared, however, the Indonesian Courts deal with punishment first.

Too often we hear that someone convicted and sentenced to a term of imprisonment will be free in less than half that time. Perhaps 'truth in sentencing' should be enforced, if you get 5 years, you do five years and if you behave you get to go home after that five years. If you don't behave you get a little more time there to think about it.

I arrested a person a long time ago in Canberra, his motive was to get a short prison term over winter as the Canberra winter was too cold to be out.

Going back to the original post on this thread, yes there was a waste of life and potential, but I think it occurred before these people left Australia. Sukumaran for instance dropped out of university, into a mail room job then joined a gang as he realised he could never afford fast cars, girls and nightclubs on his mailroom salary.

I do feel very sad for the families if they were the innocent ones in this matter and were unaware of the criminal activities of these 9 young people. From experience that is not always the case and many families happily share in the proceeds of crimes such as these.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Matt
Just for info, i wikied the Japan vs Indonesia numbers and i reckon Indonesia will catch up pretty quick.
That said, the Japanese only appear to execute murderers and in many cases it has to be multiple murder.
Looking at the Indonesion site, i see they also execute a lot of their own for murder, but when i looked at the drugs related deaths executions since 2000, it is listed as 18 foreigners and 2 locals.
Considering the country is stated to be awash in drugs, i would have suspected a lot higher ratio of locals, unless they somehow know how to evade the system???

Ron
Maybe here, but not there. Unless you have outside friends sending in food and clothes, you starve in the cold.
I reckon the show of military force and the administrative dog and pony show put on for the execution could have clothed and fed all of the victims for more than 50 years.
All really irrelevant now.

Andrew

[Eratosthenes]

Actually the estimate of 1 million dead Iraqis since 2003 has strong support even though the USA doesn't like it when it's crimes are aired in public. And most the deaths were civilians of which about 2/3 were women, children and the elderly.

How was this figure arrived at? Well that is very interesting indeed because the 2 analysts used to conduct the study were the same people who carried out an identical study in the Serbian conflict. The international criminal court accepted the results of these two expert analysts, and found Milosovic guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The USA and all nations involved in the Milosovic prosecution had no problem accepting the death toll count. The USA did however reject the figures of the same analysts who used the same statistical techniques in Iraq.

This shouldn't surprise anyone.

Moral relativism and the rejection of the basic principle of universality seems to be a convenient tool used by the underbelly of the West. An underbelly steeped in corporate fascism and imperial based racism.

[BPO]

Nobody really seems to care unless the condemned is "one of ours."

[doppler]

The sad bit about this case was that the AFP could have helped Corby try to prove her inocence but "it is not a part of their job to help people to prove their inocence" so they didn't.

[AussieTrooper]

That can occur here in Australia too. An appeal is a request to reconsider the outcome. Sometimes (though rarely) it does result in a heavier penalty.

[Neutronstar]

There is so much controversy over the ban Bali holiday movement right now, its taken over.

This above, is why I will never step foot in that country. Do you want to risk that someone else may do the wrong thing implicating you, in a country with no mercy? No thanks. There are plenty of other places to go where I'd expect a better chance of a fair trial.

[LewisM]

Innocence and Corby are not words I would ever associate together.

[LewisM]

I would avoid Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand for starters if this is your rationale.

Simple measures avoid these possibilities. Padlocked luggage, luggage wrapped with specific tape that will show being cut/opened, "cling wrapped" baggage, or even luggage tagged as having been inspected at departure

[Rob_K]

Pardon my cynicism but the scenario of drug smugglers secreting their million dollar packages in innocent travellers' luggage and hoping on a roll of the dice and a thousand different variables that they can successfully recover them after arrival borders on the preposterous.

But it's a great defence if you get caught because doubt creates at least something that can be leveraged. And because it has been claimed so many times, it has gained a certain popular currency. Locking and securing your luggage does help authorities in the war against drugs because if you do it and then get caught, you haven't got a leg to stand on. Hence the advisories.

Lock and secure your luggage by all means, but only to stop people taking things out, not putting them in. ;)

Cheers -

[5ash]

It's certainly been a media circus that has polarised public opinion to such an extent that both sides of politics have had to get on the bandwagon . Shows how weak our politicians are . I don't agree with the death penalty , but another countries laws and culture are theirs not ours. We may try to change things with international pressure , going alone makes us offensive to the Indonesians and solves nothing. Also these men are criminals not the martyrs as they are becoming in some eyes.
Philip

[LewisM]

Hence why Corby"s claims are so far fetched and ridiculous as to defy belief, but after
watching that whole charade over the years, the story may have been the most intelligible thing to come out of her or her families mouth.

Her father was caught with drugs more than once, her brother performed heinous crimes related to drugs, her sister has been photographed with MJ, her mother charged for MJ possession and one friend who used to visit her was part of a cartel. Hmmmmmmm

[Ausrock]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[doppler]

Drug smugglers are out to make money? The value of the drugs in Australia would have been around $35,000 and in Bali around $5,000. So, who in their right mind would take a chance on receiving a death sentence, or a life sentence in a third world prison, just to lose $30,000?

No one would, which is why marijuana has never been taken to Bali from Australia before, or since. Indeed, if the drugs in her bag really did come from Australia, the event is unique in the histories of both Australia and Indonesia. Quite simply, there is no Australian marijuana on Bali's streets. There never has been, and probably never will be. Even one of the Indonesian judges thought she was set up.

As for her family, they are a surfie family so you would expect a bit of "soft drug" use/dealings ? I think Corby's case was a trial by media like that of Lindy Chamberlain.

As for the Bali 9 I think that they should have been extradited to Australia to face their crimes which were directed against Australia.

[clive milne]

Honestly answer this simple question:

To what extent has the legal status of any substance influenced your choice to either take or not take it?

A recent study by the UK government across a number of countries has confirmed that there is zero correlation between the severity of drug laws and the use of drugs in those countries.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29824764

Two interesting examples stand out. Since Sweden toughened its drug laws, the consumption of drugs in that country has increased. Portugal on the other hand, decriminalized the possession of all drugs (even heroin) and now has a lower consumption of drugs amongst its population than before.

I think any rational attempt to understand the problems associated with drugs, (assuming the intent is to minimise the damage they do to society) must make a clear distinction between the harm that the drugs actually do and the harm that is done by attempting to police the issue. ie) the billions spent on law enforcement and the creation, enrichment & empowerment of criminals.

The war on drugs has not resulted in any tangible benefit to society but has come at an extraordinary cost.
By any metric I can think of it is an abject failure, so why not consider the words of Albert Einstein:


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[doppler]

People will always take drugs, this has been going on for centuries, so the logical answer is to make softer less adictive drugs more easily available to lure people away from the dark side . The bad guys like prohabition because they then they have full control of what they want to sell. Education not enforcement is the real key to long term health.

[04Stefan07]

I totally agree with you mate. It was their own fault to begin with. They knew the consequences and risked being caught which they were. Imagine what would have happened if they weren't caught.

Whenever these two people popped up in the news I could not stand hearing about them anymore. Respect the laws of other countries and we won't have this problem. The media tried to make them look like heroes and one of the national papers labeled them as "brave". Brave? Excuse me? They were two criminals! There was a random caller on a local radio station who called up and said they could not sleep because of this. It makes me sick, people didn't realise they were criminals.

I bet Australian's won't like it if other countries tell us how to conduct our own laws?

I wonder how this would have panned out if they weren't from Australia? It would definitely not be major headlines, just a mere footnote in the newspaper.

[AstralTraveller]

I believe that in Australia the consumption of legal drugs is decreasing while the consumption of illegal drugs is increasing.

When considering the harm drugs do you need to consider not just the drug but also the circumstances under which it is consumed. There is a huge difference between a well fed person consuming too much booze in their home and then sleeping in a warm bed and a homeless person, who has been dumpster diving for dinner, drinking the same amount and then sleeping in the local park. And if it's metho they drink the problems are far far worse. Similarly there have been numerous rock stars (and presumably other wealthy people who fly under the radar) who have had a major addiction for years, even decades, and have managed to stay relatively healthy. They have been able to afford pure heroin and clean needles while still being well fed and housed. Of course they would be better off without the drugs but they don't go downhill nearly as quick as the addicts in your local slum. If harm minimization is the aim this is a real consideration.

[Ausrock]

The unfortunate and usually unpublicised fact is that the long term physical effects of drugs like MJ and heroin are quite different........a heroin addict who manages to "rehabilitate" has the opportunity of having a normal life ahead of them.......while they're addicted to the drug, it does not cause irreparable damage.

On the other hand, an MJ addict will always have to live with the fact that their habit has been destroying brain cells which will never regenerate.........the damage they are causing is permanent.

[Eratosthenes]

I disagree with this assessment mr bruess

I dont see a whole lot difference between Australia and Indonesia as global citizens.

[blink138]

i had something posted on my facebook page from a friend and apparently some journo in the east has declared "bringing our boys home" in relation to the drug smugglers bodies, which, of course such a phrase is reserved for our troops!
he was not a happy chappie let me tell you!
pat

[LewisM]

10 years ago, the media roared to execute them else they kill our children...

10 years later Indonesia does just so and now the media is outraged.

I am constantly reminded why I refuse to watch TV news or internet reports let alone read a newspaper.

I am glad to see the greater majority here are not sheeple.

[AstralTraveller]

Fair call about the media. But if you don't watch TV news or internet reports and don't read papers where do you get your info?

BTW I used to complain long and hard about our local paper, then we started getting the Tele delivered free to the lunch room. Man oh man, that thing would rot your brain. I once comment to an American college that Rupert is now 'one of yours'. He offered to return him. I declined.

[Hagar]

As I mentioned earlier I have a distinct distaste for the death penalty but do find it objectionable that face book seems to be full of do gooder's who are making calls like "Bringing our boys home"
Lets just remember for a minute these blokes were criminals! they thought nothing of transporting and selling drugs which could have killed a lot of innocent people or as a minimum ruined a lot of lives.
I find it quite sickening that these words are being used for mere criminals while the same wording is usually expressed for our fallen soldiers when returned from Afganastan and the like.
Lets not let these two go down in history like Ned Kelly who was also another criminal who met with the same fate, but here in Australia.
I do feel for their families but that is where it ends. I have lost friends to drugs over the years and no one gave a S** t.

[doppler]

Who is inocent? Drug possession and use is a criminal offecence for all hard drugs in Australia.

[Hagar]

I know what you are saying but the end user of drugs just like the cigarette smoker, is in my opinion guilty by association.

[Moon]

The irony of all this is that on one hand, the drug trade is entirely comprised of free individuals acting in what they believe is their own self-interest and on the other hand we have the death penalty where the state is acting at its most aggressive and coercive worst. That’s why it’s a brain twister for so many.

Across the world, the death penalty is being eradicated (http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-trends) and drugs are being legalised. That is the direction we are all heading. It’s a slow process for people accept any change, but it’s unstoppable thank goodness. Slowly the people of the world are understanding that freedom is fundamental for a prosperous civilised society. These are just 2 examples, but there are plenty more such as the recent moves to accept gay marriage, democratisation, liberalisation of trade and markets, the decriminalization of gambling, homosexuality, prostitution and euthanasia.

I’m also tired of hearing about these 2 chaps, but if it gets people really thinking about what sort of world they want to leave behind for the next generation, then it’s a good thing.

[Kunama]

This issue is now starting to get out of hand, apparently there are now 'public grieving ceremonies' to be held at two Canberra churches for these two criminals who sought to make their contribution to society by bringing in 8.3Kg heroin to bring much misery to weaker members of society and in the process to make themselves wealthy. I find it incredibly distasteful that everyone is jumping on this bandwagon when very little is done to recognise the efforts of people who actually serve their country.

These two clowns were only trying to serve their own interests and in the process managed to collar 7 other young Australians into their crime, leaving them to rot in Indonesian prisons.

Time people woke up to the fact that Australia is better off without these two drug pushers.

[clive milne]

Yep, you just have to marvel at the efficacy of Rupert's tapeworms in molding public opinion. They conflate a couple of two bit, criminal sociopaths with the ANZAC, hero mythos... (and implicitly suggest action of some sort is required to restore the integrity of our bruised, collective identity as if it were a national imperative) and with the next breath, legitimise/normalise the attempt to dismantle the public health and education infrastructure upon which the future of this country depends.

[GrahamL]

These men are beyond death now you pair , why not let those who want to mark there passing just do so without the political chest thumping nonsense

Intolerance is itself a form of violence -'ghandi'

[clive milne]

By all means... back to the kool aid.

[pmrid]

Why? They commited crimes against Indonesian laws. Why should Indonesia forego it's own jurisdiction in favour of Australia? We want other states to actively and seriously interdict the trade in dangerous drugs and precursors. Indonesia no less than America, China, India, Japan etc. Some of those still practice the death penalty but we actively pursue joint and co-operative enforcement with them anyway. Why is Indonesia "special "?

Peter

[graham.hobart]

My last comment..
My original point was not that they didn't deserve punishment (they did), but that they deserved mercy or clemency after ten years of good behaviour- the death sentence commuted to LIFE IMPRISONMENT.
That's what would have happened under Bang Bang.
Somehow a plea for mercy has got all mixed up with right and wrong.
I know they broke the law and should be punished, they were, but they did everything they could to reform. If you take away the chance of reformation, of mercy, of reward for good behaviour (after all a life sentence is still a life sentence), what motivation have any criminals got for redemption? Every country would be packed to the gills with rotting prisons, like the prison hulks that dotted the Thames in the 18th Century.
Slightly ironic that those inmates were condemned in reality to life in Australia, and they redeemed themselves (mostly!) in this great Country.
I will shaddup my face now!!
Graham

[strongmanmike]

Thankfully, I think your general sentiments on this issue are indeed shared by the vast majority Graham and are humane, balanced and just.

Mike

[marc4darkskies]

Exactly Graham!



I sure hope so Mike. It's hard to tell frankly. Much of the sentiment expressed in this thread plus the arguments in the broader community have, as you correctly pointed out earlier, missed the point. This is not about crime & punishment (the law), it's about redemption and mercy (the humanity).

I ignored this case for 10 years. When they got their original sentence I thought fine, just deserts etc etc. My humanity kicked in when I heard how they had both worked so hard to redeem themselves. It became clearer and clearer that theirs wasn't an act or a facade. It was a real attempt to do good and make amends.

My wife, who runs a large rehab center in these parts, can attest to the reality that people can change their path from bad to good. Even when not faced with a death sentence wrong doers can see the light and make amends and become better people. Some even go on to be excellent mentors and teachers to others who might be following the same destructive path.

Shortly before his execution, Andrew Chan actually called and addressed the "students" in Gail's rehab to challenge them about taking the opportunities presented to them to turn their lives around now before it's too late. Coming from him the message was a lot more powerful than if it had come from someone without that negative life experience. I.e. even at the end Andrew Chan was trying to help others to change.

[Renato1]

Well, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev just got a lethal injection death sentence for the fun he had blowing up and maiming men, women and children in the country where he was given refuge. And he hasn't shown any remorse since then.

Is this death sentence a waste of life and potential too?
Cheers,
Renato

[Nikolas]

Nope it's well deserved.

[astroboof]

They was right
and we was wrong
but we shot them dead
and now they gone...

Near hundreds of people are murdered or executed each and every day all across our world in the name of some form of law, and the majority recieve no interest or attention at all. It always has been and always will be. Best remember them for how they lived rather than died, far as moments go, and like everyone else they had good and bad moments during their lives, they paid dearly for there greed and lack of reason, as perhaps needed to be for the greater good. The realistic and educated cynic in us laughs at those words 'the greater good'.

Let 'em go.

[Hagar]

No one deserves to die. Easy to say rapist, murderers, terrorist etc should be executed. I have said it myself on numerous occasions but in reality I would struggle both physically and morally to pull the trigger. There are other ways to deal with these people but what is needed is some uniformity and consistency in sentencing of such people.
There have been numerous instances where the guilty person was found not guilty 20 years on.

My thoughts anyway.

[Hans Tucker]

It was proven Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was guilty without a doubt. What he and his brother did was calculated, methodical and cold blooded without any regard for the innocent individuals. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev deserves to die for his crime pure and simple. You can't compare his case to some poor individual that suffered a miscarriage of justice...the mountain of evidence and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev own confession proves his guilt and total lack of remorse. If Eight-year-old Martin Richard was my brother or son I would have no hesitation to rid the world of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. Now the endless appeals begin...I feel for Boston and the victims of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev crime

[Hagar]

Hans. It's all hypotnetical of course. I assume you haven't killed anyone yet.
That said I cant understand how you can lower yourself to his level and be calculated, methodical and cold blooded in your act of justice. There are many other ways to make him suffer his crime and by his beliefs far more worrying to him than to die by lethal injection.

At no point have I ever insinuated that I feel nothing for those who suffered at his hand in fact I find his behaviour abhorrent but still cannot bring myself to agree with his execution.
I would certainly agree with a life custodial sentence with no right or chance of parole. Throw in hard labour on a prison pig farm or a new boyfriend for good measure.

[Renato1]

Actually, I'd prefer if they put Tsarnaev in solitary for 20 years, and then shot him.

This would be very merciful, as he wouldn't have to suffer for as long as his amputee victims will have to.
Regards,
Renato

[Joves]

I personally believe the tax payers dollar should not be wasted housing and feeding terrorist scum. Nor should it be wasted on inherently evil people that clearly have no chance of, or any right to, reform. Ivan Milat is another example. As is Martin Bryant. Even oxygen is wasted on them, I'm afraid. Put a bolt in their head.

As for the Bali fellas, I'm a little torn. They were selfish and stupid, yes. Deserve the death penalty? Perhaps. Deserve to be emotionally pushed and pulled, on death row/off death row, serve ten years, shot dead anyway... I don't think so. I think the way it was gone about... The spectacle... It was just wrong. Am I attending mass mourning sessions or buying into the whole "we just lost two of our finest" nonsense? Not at all. But I am very dismayed at the way it went down. They didn't deserve that.