Astrophotography - I have $2,347 and 60 cents

[Eratosthenes]

I have $2,347.60 and wish to take photographs through a telescope.

All recommendations, suggestions and criticisms etc are welcome.

(my piggy bank was opened today - didnt realise there were so many coins in it)

[algwat]

play with some big toys at http://itelescope.squarespace.com/

kind regards, Alan

[codemonkey]

Do you happen to have a dSLR already?

[wasyoungonce]

Astrophotography requires you to have knowledge of: cameras; telescopes; mounts; mount alignment; astronomy; and more....very good knowledge at that.

Then you need: Scope; mount; dew heaters; guidescope; camera; computer; power supplies; USB hubs...the list goes on.

If you lack all this then throwing money into something nice and shiny will see you quickly overloaded and burn out.

IMHO, buy a modest scope like a 8" Dob first and see how you like it before you jump in the deep end, or, research research research the net on the above topics.

[codemonkey]

I think the age-old advice of not starting out with AP might be a fair general rule, but not always applicable depending on the person and their experiences.

I personally never had an interest in visual work and can sympathise with the OP. Strange thing is lately I've started to feel an urge to do some visual, after 18months of pure AP.

If you are going to jump straight into AP the key is to make sure you keep things simple. Short focal length is a must.

If you have a dSLR you could work with that budget, but if you need a camera as well that might make things a bit more challenging.

[Eratosthenes]

I have an old 60mm refractor, and a 6" Newtonian. Both without drives. And binoculars. So basically I have been doing back yard observations from the outer suburdpbs of Melbourne and sometimes I have specifically driven out to country Victoria to escape the city lights and heat etc.

I have always been interested in astronomy and telescopes from a young age. My piggy bank had collected more gold coins than I thought it would over a 5 or 6 year period.

What better way is there to spend some loose change which turned out to be quite substantial? The home loan could use an extraordinary payment, but what the hell, you only live once.

I have been shopping around online and also visited the Bintel store in Melbourne, and Ozscopes in bays water somewhere.

There is lots to choose from. And I have been steering away from refractors, because my Newtonian reflector is much better than my cheaper refractor, but refractors were strongly recommended to me for particular type of observations like planets.

My feeling is that I would like to invest in an all round telescope if possible that may cover most of the night sky objects. If that is not possible, then perhaps a high quality mount that will last a long time and cater for future investments in telescopes and equipment.

Not entirely sure which way to go at this point, but flexibility and future updrades is a key for me at the moment.

Cheers

[wasyoungonce]

Ahh a little clearer...then you are reasonably experienced in collimation and mount alignment, as well as the basics of astronomy.

An 8" ~ F4 reflector on a mount for astrophotography has more demands (re: finicky) than a refractor...wrt to collimation; tube flex; the camera gets in positions that is difficult and causes flex...etc. A refractor ~ 80~100mm will be easier.

But...the reflector is cheaper and gives a damn nice FOV, unless of course the refractor is a short FL (probably F6 at best).

A refractor is easier to start with in general but the reflector is probably a better tool.

As for cameras...just use a DSLR (Canon or Nikon) and control software like BackYard EOS (http://www.otelescope.com/index.php?/page/index.html) or APT (http://www.ideiki.com/astro/Default.aspx) or Sequence generator Pro (http://www.mainsequencesoftware.com/Products/SGpro) (for Canon) or BackYard Nikon (http://www.otelescope.com/index.php?/page/index.html) (for the Nikon) to control the camera.

Mounts...depends upon your scope. Buy the best mount you can for the scope size. Bigger scopes need bigger mounts but probably 2/3 of the money spent should be on the mount.

An ED80 on a HEQ5 is a good start! Or maybe a short 8" F4 reflector on an EQ6!

Anyway FWIW.

[g__day]

Lease time on a ultra high end professional rig in a dark sky site? Seriously if you spent $100 - $200 you might end up with stunning pictures you could show everyone, hassle free, that you couldn't achieve without a colossal outlay and exacting set-up.

These services readily exist. If you just wish to image - but don't want to learn how to set up and run the gear - which may take years and cost thousands - this might be a perfect choice to evaluate.

If consequentially you want to tinker with gear for many months or years to get satisfaction - then state this and we can give you better advice!

[cometcatcher]

Most of that $2347.60 will end up having to go on the mount. Mount prices have risen sharply with the drop in the Aussie dollar unfortunately.

Talk to the guys at Bintel also. I presently use a Bintel 8" F4 on a HEQ5 pro. You can get that combo (or the F5 version) for the dollars you have, (probably not much change after freight) but you will also need a coma corrector and camera which will take you over budget.

Astrophotography has a steep never ending learning curve. Both in the hardware side and software image processing. It's both fun and frustrating at times.

[Eratosthenes]

I certainly do want to tinker with the technology and learn a lot more about imaging and tracking targets properly over long exposures etc. I am prepared to spend the initial outlay of the mount, goto system and the scope. In about 12 months I should have a further $1000 or so (probably not in coins this time) to spend on a digital camera, guidescope set up and other bits and pieces.

I have always just observed the night sky with the two basic scopes I own, and shared with friends and family.

It would be great to record some of these observations and experiences.

[bugeater]

Having just started this myself (also with prior experience doing visual), I'll concur that it is a slippery slope greased with money. That said, I've tried to future proof my purchases, so I shouldn't outgrow things quickly.

Your budget could get you an AZ EQ6 GT from the right dealer with maybe a hundred or two left over. If you went for a NEQ6 instead, you could get a 8" reflector too.

Problem is you also need a camera, guide camera, light pollution filters, guidescope, coma corrector, laptop, dew heaters........:scared:

Well need is a bit strong, but you'll need a camera at least.

Another route is going second hand - you could probably manage a decent basic setup if you picked up a second hand mount (NEQ6 is good) and OTA out of the classifieds here. Would leave plenty for a new DSLR and even a few of the other bits and pieces.

[Eratosthenes]

Thanks Bugeater,

the NEQ6 Pro GOTO mount with a reasonable reflector is what I am leaning towards.

Slippery slopes are everywhere so we all need some common sense and realism to temper our expectations with anything we do - especially hobbies which can get out of control. I am not trying to win global astrophotography competitions or impress NASA. I merely want to dive into my hobby a little deeper and generate an image record of some of the objects I regularly follow during observations and perhaps record some special events when they occur, like comets, eclipses (like the lunar eclipse we just had in Melbourne) etc.

I could delay the purchase for 12 months when I get access to an additional $1,000, which will give me more bargaining power with the gear dealers - ie buying some accessories along with the scope and mount.

[Moon]

Since you are in Melbourne, ASV membership is only $70 pa. There is a very active AP group with monthly meetings and field trips. We have a fully equipped AP dome for members to use. You can join here http://asv.org.au/join

With the remaining cash, I would start with a nice digital camera, tripod and timer release.

James

[Eratosthenes]

thanks James, i am aware of the ASV and its web site and facilities, but I have never joined.

Can members use the telescope at the AP dome to do astrophotography with your own photographic equipment?

I definitely want to move up to a GOTO mount set up. I haven't decided on the OTA yet. I have access to a Holiday house outside Melbourne which generally has very clear and dark skies, so I will most likely set it up there.

Anyway thanks folks for the advice.

Telescopes and astronomy in general have always fascinated me from a very young age. I need to do something in my middle age, and being a night owl, this is the perfect hobby for me.

cheers

[Slawomir]

Alternatively, that money could buy you quite a lot of imaging time on iTelescope.Net or similar...

[Moon]

The idea is to use the camera that is already there. You only need to bring a USB stick to take your images home.
If you want to bring your own gear, there are piers and 240V power out on the field.


:thumbsup:

James

[Eratosthenes]

Slawomir and James have just made my decision even more difficult.

I could spend say $400 on a top shelf single malt whiskey and the remaining coins on renting observatory equipment.

[Nico13]

Another option is to go for the NEQ6 Pro mount or the AZ version, mount the Newt you have and learn a bit about EQ mounts and their use and alignment while considering a new scope.
There is no reason why you can't put a camera on the the little Newt and start the learning curve there.
It will show you why you need to set up very well why you will want to guide and also why you need coma correction and or field flatteners to get reasonable images.
That way you're not running out and spending money on something before learning a bit about what it is you really want.
Hope this helps.

[Slawomir]

Hi Peter,

As long as you will have fun with this hobby (or passion for some), whatever you choose will provide you with new experiences and ultimately it will be up to you (and the depth of your wallet) how far will you go in the infinite journey that is astrophotography.

I started just two years ago with extremely basic set-up...(see the photo from April 2013) and although there were choices made along the way that were not the smartest ones, nevertheless these choices provided with invaluable experience.

May the Force (of gravity) be always with you.

[Eratosthenes]

Yes all good suggestions and ideas.
The main reason I joined this forum was to extract some advice and learn from more experienced telescope users who dabble with photography.

Sales people at various outlets tend to suggest equipment brands and set ups that suit their store policies and profit margins etc. I would like to have a reasonable grasp of what sort of options are available to me from users who have gone through the process.

In the end we are all limited but budget constraints, access to clear dark skies, time etc...

I will be trying to get the best mount that I can afford with capacity to take on bigger scopes and added gear. The EQ6 is looking good and in my price range.

One question on the EQ6. I have read that the EQ6 has a belt driven system and that the belts cannot be purchased separately if there are any problems with worn or damaged belts later.

Has anybody had to deal with EQ6 belt problems?

cheers

Peter

[rustigsmed]

Hi,

In addition to the good comments already I here are some suggested items for you...


Scope
8" f5 newt (I was going to suggest f5 over f4 anyway you can use visually and its less difficult to collimate). plus you can probably live without a coma corrector for a little while by cropping images.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=133753
or if you go refractor http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=133960

$300

Coma corrector
http://www.bintel.com.au/Astrophotography/Reducers--Correctors--Flatteners/Baader-MPCC-MKIII-Coma-Corrector--2--/676/productview.aspx

Someone may need to suggest a flattener if you get the refractor - i don't have one so can't comment on what is good.

$339

Autouiding

This is something you can do later, you should be able to get 30-60 seconds with your mount and good polar alignment without one to go longer requires guiding. Done either through a guidescope or Off axis guider - and guide camera.

http://www.bintel.com.au/Astrophotography/Autoguiders/Orion-Mini-AutoGuider-Package/403/productview.aspx

$500

Camera

dslr
eg 450d
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/port-melbourne/digital-slr/canon-450d-digital-slr-camera-like-new-in-original-box/1076021791
$250

550d
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/clayton/digital-slr/canon-550d-dslr-excellent-condition/1076183519

Shoestring cabling
http://www.bintel.com.au/Astrophotography/Autoguiders/Shoestring-USB-Guide-br--Port-Interface/771/productview.aspx

$109

Mount

HEQ5, or NEQ6 or AZNEQ6 as people have mentioned.

or maybe the newer AZEQ5
http://www.bintel.com.au/Mounts---Tripods/Alt-Az-Mounts/SkyWatcher-AZ/EQ5-GoTo-Pier/1946/productview.aspx#
$2000

or HEQ5 $1800
http://www.bintel.com.au/Mounts---Tripods/EQ-Mounts/Sky-Watcher-HEQ5-Pro-GoTo-Mount/96/productview.aspx

Unfortunately a lot of mounts have gone up in price recently due to the aussie dollar..

a second hand mount would save you a lot. ... and here is one just listed

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=133964 with a 8" newt and refractor $1200






Russ

[Eratosthenes]

....Eratosthenes is taking notes...lots of notes...thanks Russel for the guide to prices and the exposure times acceptable without a guidescope set up. That could be useful.

and yes I did notice a spike in the prices of mounts, OTAs and other imported gear over the past few weeks.

I do have someone who will be going to China in June and returning later in the year. May be worthwhile tracking some accessories and a camera from Shanghai. That could allow me to get a good GOTO mount and OTA from Melbourne with the budget I have at the moment.

Meanwhile it's the cheapy, very old, uncontrollable refractor with the shocking lenses and unusable 3X Barlow lens for me. Although my simple 6" Newtonian is a lot better, but again without a drive and cheapish optics and aging hand controls, is becoming very difficult to use. (both have opened up the skies for me though and I will most likely donate them to the neighbours young kids who have used them occasionally)

cheers

[Nortilus]

Get a Dslr, get it with a twin lense kit, get a ioptron skytracker, get a remote timer for your dslr, learn how to polar align the skytracker and start with doing wide fields...
Dont get an uber expensive mount, dont get a telescope yet, dont get all the other stuff like guide scopes, dew heaters, and all that...this is the advice i wish someone had given me. I learnt the hard way which cost alot of $$$ and frustration. I did meet alot of awesome people along the way but yeah. Start small, learn the software needed to make images too...most is free.

[Eratosthenes]

Josh, I do have a low end Canon DSLR (EOS 100D) with a standard lens which is a very good camera.

I am not that concerned about the learning curve or making blunders. All part of the experience.

Need to dive into the deep end sometimes. I have reasonably good background in astronomical phenomena and using a basic reflector and refractor telescope. Astrophotography sounds like lots of fun, even with the obvious frustrations of getting clear images.

I remember constructing a stellar tracker mount for a camera out of two planks of wood, some hinges and a threaded bolt of specific pitch. Just followed the instructions and you were able to follow objects in the sky by turning the bolt at one revolution per minute (like the second hand of a clock). This enabled longer exposures without star trails etc. Very crude set up, but at the time a great little project for a young teenager.

Looked something like this, except I didn't have a tripod at the time, so I just had the tracker set up on a table. You could obtain good long exposures if you had a steady hand and aligned the tracker accurately.

http://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2014/12/dslrtracker.jpg

[wasyoungonce]

Perfect...has Digic5 processor. With reference to my post above, APT or BYEOS will be able to tether and control this camera with a laptop. Makes taking images easy.

All you need is a 2" T ring adaptor to fit the camera to focuser, then use the above programs to achieve optimum focus and away you go.

Russell hit the nail on the head...some good quality 2nd hand gear available on this site.

[cometcatcher]

Take a look at the beginner's photography section Peter to see what the starters, or the cheap skates like me are able to shoot. Low end astrophotography typically involves some sort of basic DSLR, a telescope with focal length of 1000mm or less and a "cheap" Skywatcher or similar mount. The results of this basic setup can be quite good.

Compare if you like to the deep space image section which is mostly more experienced imagers with top shelf gear. They often use cooled CCD cameras, big heavy duty mounts and better optics. Not only that but they may spend 100 hours taking just one photo!

Yes experience is a huge part of it, but so is the almighty dollar. I'm content with my cheap setup. I've decided I won't be going expensive cooled CCD any time soon. My location is frequently cloudy anyway so I can't justify it.

[nebulosity.]

Lots of good advice here, an eq6 and an 8" f5 newt is a real nice start I reckon.

I use a 8" f5 newt and find it pretty fool proof. If you wanted to save a little money don't get scared of building one, I built mine and for about $180.

My whole AP setup is worth under $500 and I have been able to get a lot of nice images from it, so don't worry to much about spending big.

I don't use any computer control or guiding, or any of that stuff. I don't really think there is much benefit other than costing lots and making extra headaches (you will have enough to start with anyway :lol:)

If my advice is worth anything, I would say an eq6 with a shorter focal length newt and a coma corrector will do great. Then grab yourself a timer remote for your camera and you are set.

As you get more experienced you will probably find that your camera will become the only limiting factor.

Cheers
Jo

[Eratosthenes]

Thanks for the advice. All very valuable.

I must say that I am starting to feel a little guilty spending my piggy bank coins when so many posters here seem to getting good image results and experiences with must lower cost set ups.

My impression so far is that the mount is the most important equipment item in any set up and should make up the bulk of the initial outlay. Unfortunately the reflector and refractor which I currently use are very old with very poor optics and I don't want talk about the 2 Barlow lens.:eyepop:

i am keep to see deep sky objects better and want to get into astro measurements. Measuring the orbit speed of planets, and their moons etc. long term observations that reveal intricate motions and behaviors. The imaging is almost secondary to that goal.

The skywatcher NEQ6 mount is looking attractive, not sure if I can afford the AZ EQ version.

Can anybody assist with why an AZ option is handy and whether it does anything better than the standard GEM? Is it just simplicity of set up and operation?

Cheers

[AndrewJ]

Gday Peter

If you just want to set up quickly for visual work,
AltAz is very simple and keeps the EP at a much more stable position.

Andrew

[bugeater]

I've never used the function on mine, but the mount is meant to be better for a few other reasons other than just the AZ function. Such as being belt driven, which is often an upgrade people make to the NEQ6 meaning you end up spending just as much anyway. But if money is tight I'm not sure the AZ version is necessary. Plenty of amazing images have been taken on the EQ6

[Eden]

Hi there Peter,

Ken made a very good suggestion and I would have to agree. Investing in an EQ6 series mount and using your existing telescope tube would be a very good start, giving you a stable platform to build on over time.

[Camelopardalis]

Peter, what are you interesting in taking photographs of? This would have an influence on where might be a good place to start.

As you've probably gathered so far, the mount is the key to taking good images, be they wide field images of the Milky Way, solar system objects or deep space objects.

The EQ6 and AZ versions are popular mounts, but you'd need to decide whether it fits in with your interests and capabilities. Either way, the AZ version is worth the extra $$ with its belt drive and more refined adjustments in altitude and azimuth that make it that much easier to hone in on a good polar alignment. The AZ is also a kg or two lighter, but be prepared that the heaviest component of each is about 16kg.

Of course, if you're only interested in wide fields of view and/or nightscapes, then the smaller and cheaper sky tracker devices on a decent tripod will work well and weigh a lot less.

Before getting to caught up in a scope, I'd decide on what interests you most now and work from there. You'd be surprised what you can do with your current camera, whatever lenses you already have and a remote shutter of some kind (an intervalometer for example).

[bugeater]

It's small in the scheme of things, but if you are comfortable installing magic lantern on your camera, you can get by without an intervalometer.

[gregbradley]

As you have pointed out the mount is the most important item in imaging.

The best scope on a poor mount still gives horrendous images. A not so great scope on an excellent mount will give better images.

So the scale of importance is:

1. The best mount you can afford (they seem a lot cheaper now than they used to).

2. The best scope you can afford (bear in mind the upgrade path usually involves a financial loss). An ED80 refractor is a common good starting point for a scope.

3. The best camera. Modified Canon DSLRs are some of the best.
I suspect the earlier models of Canon DSLRs are better than some of the later models where the pixels are starting to get too small. 350D is a beaut. I am not sure Canon improved on that particularly with later models from the viewpoint of astrophotography. Later models get smaller and smaller pixels and perhaps noisier. Others can say for sure as I don't do DSLR imaging any more but from what I have seen of images it would seem advancement stopped/peaked around about the 350D/20Da.

Starting out, a modified Canon 350D is stunning performer with lots of software backup, lots of other imager using similar gear to advise you and relatively easy processing.

You will need to add a guiding solution to the above to complete the package. An offaxis guider is the best solution. There are several that are not that expensive. You could add that later once you've done a bunch of images at 30 seconds.

On a typical mount that is well aligned you are able to get 30 second images without elongated stars at about 600mm focal length. Beyond 30 seconds you are going to need autoguiding. But you could take quite a few objects that are bright with 30 seconds to get going.

Greg.

[sil]

you can do astrophotography with your existing camera. Try doing that and actually learn that its not just pressing a button to take a photo. Plus it all depends on what you want to photograph. You dont NEED a telescope or anything else at this point, find out what AP involves and understand what your limitations are so you know where you'll make best use of your money. We all have gear gathering dust because it seemed like the thing to buy at the time. The gear won't solve your problem if you haven't a clue whats involved. What you have already can get you good photos, the rest is up to you.

[Logieberra]

I saw one setup over the weekend in alt az mode. Impressive for that purpose. But, for plain old astro imaging, I'm not sure what benefits it provides over the venerable NEQ6Pro. Yes the AZ is belt driven, probably sounds better on the slew - but PE is the real test. The PE would want to be significantly lower, peak to peak, to justify the extra expense of the AZ. Carrying capacity might be another factor. Best confirm that.

[Eratosthenes]

thanks logieberra,

PE can be corrected via the option on the handset. I do want a guidscope port on the mount so that I can invest in a guide scope set up.

My main motivation for imaging and tracking is to carry out measurements and monitoring long term on various astronomical objects. Sensational images and using post processing software is less important to me.

I prefer to measure redshifts of galaxies than produce award winning images using supreme accuracy tracking. Most likely quasar redshifts because of their relative brightness

[ericwbenson]

Except for the very few brightest this will require a spectroscope with a slit (=heavy), a mono CCD and a fairly large aperture as compared to the short refractors that populate the smaller mounts. The EQ6 is probably not on that track.

However even the smallest "high quality" mount will be much more than 2.5K so perhaps you could proceed with something needing less aperture in mind e.g. photometry, eclipsing binaries, Be stars, monitoring cataclysmic variables etc.

Being realistic, as soon as one wants to put a digital camera on a telescope (never mind the spectroscope), kiss goodbye to 5K, and then more the year after that, and after that,... ! But at least it's fun ;)

Best,
EB

[Logieberra]

Look into PemproV2 for PE correction. It's the gold standard. Guide scope ports (ST-4) are found on most goto mounts, but there are other software-related options (see EQMODs PulseGuide).

[codemonkey]

I'd really like to give that a shot but the support doesn't really seem to be there for camera at the moment... supposedly ASCOM support is on the way soon, which'll be nice!

[Eratosthenes]

:thanx:

[adi]

Hye peter,
I am in same boat as yours. have Saxon 909 refractor and tried 10" Dob for some time but it is too heavy. Melbourne is cloudy and i dont have any access to remote site. may be we can share your remote location if you dont mind. i am currently evaluating if i should be spending on pick and go solution like CPC 800 XLT or C8+ HEQ5 pro type setup. but after reading a lot i guess i am thinking to spend more time with dark sky and try our best with what we can with existing DSLR. I have Canon 70D with 18-200 lens.

[dannat]

what focal length/ratio is your 6" newt [f5 is fine fir imaging -if its f8 more challenging] -likely you could start with it -& your d-slr to begin with , then you really can concentrate on the mount & guide setup
[ i presume you want to guide rater than taking many 30sec exp & stacking them all]

[Eratosthenes]

thanks for your comments Avi,

After reading the comments and suggestions in this thread, I have simultaneously become encouraged and cautious about what to buy, especially in Melbourne suburbia. As far as my remote location is concerned its not ideal, but far better than the Melbourne suburbs and is only about 95km from the City centre on the peninsula.

Mobility and ease of use is becoming an issue now, if I need to travel around to obtain reasonably clear night skies. The astrophotographical requirements I need are really secondary. My main goal revolves around tracking accuracy and the degree of light collection by the OTA.

I plan to carry long term analytical research, and so the equipment I choose now is critical - the set up would need to be at least up gradable or over sized. One set of measurements I plan to do, for which I have access to instrumentation requires at least a 14" aperture, perhaps even 16". This is not really within my budget, even for a Dobsonian scope (which, from my research so far has inadequate tracking accuracy. I may need to scrap that particular experiment, unless I can team up with someone with a large scope, or perhaps an astronomical society that allows its members to rent or use their observatories and equipment).

Its very early in proceedings, so I haven't decided on which pathway I will take. At this stage, it looks as though, I may wait some years and raise additional money to get what I need. In the meantime I will use the 60mm Tasco reflector and the endure the shocking optics of my reflector - both without tracking or drives)

cheers

[Eratosthenes]

Daniel, not sure. The focal length on the tube plate says 1200mm. Its a fairly long Newtonian (and old, about 25 years)

I plan to conduct experiments and generate long term data with the new set up. My main priorities are light collection ability (aperture) and tracking stability. I partly wish to reproduce certain results and observations and compare them with the scientific literature and I am also looking for several phenomena which I may be able to detect indirectly.

Astrophotographical set ups seem to be where all the high tech gear and software is focused.

cheers

[dannat]

ok so 1200/150mm = f8 ratio

[Eratosthenes]

learn something everyday - thanks

So this would be a slow scope for photography?

It can a poor mirror finish and very cheap eyepieces. Although It has given me a lot of fun over the years. I still use it on occasions - usually when something is going on - like an eclipse or comet flying around.