Should Humanity Try to Contact Alien Civilisations?

[Suzy]

http://www.space.com/28632-active-seti-search-alien-life.html?cmpid=514630_20150307_410 62476&adbid=10152658679221466&adbpl=fb&adbpr=17610706465&adbid=10152679849851466&adbpl=fb&adbpr=17610706465

Make sure to watch the two short videos please, they are really good.

So what do guys think?

Stephen Hawking is against and it and so am I.
I think I'm one of the few people who couldn't give two hoots if we are the only civilisation in the entire universe :shrug: .

What's to say they aren't going to turn on us and take over our planet :question: .
We can never be sure of their intentions so why advertise where we are:question:.

It also annoyed me no end that a chart of where Earth is, is inscribed on the golden record onboard the Voyager spacecraft en-route to existing our solar system. Maybe I'm being ignorant and perhaps after reading some comments I might even have a more open mind :) .

I realise this can be a highly debatable topic so I ask that you please comment respectfully without personally attacking other peoples opinions so we can have a nice healthy discussion. I'd really appreciate that, so thank you in advance :).

Wow, it's been such a long time since I've posted anything in General Chat! Hello to everyone here :hi:.

[Neutronstar]

Its an interesting topic and I have given it passing thought in the past.
There is a list of Pros and Cons on both sides of course. One Pro is that we hope an alien civilization may teach us some of their technology. In Stargate the TV series, the Asguard assisted us but they had ulterior motives with a common enemy. Can we even assume that another sentient life form will have morals as part of their makeup? No.

Seems to me the only information we have right now is, how would life on this planet treat us (humans) given the chance, intelligence and will?
Some of what is on this planet now will want to eat or conquer us, so it reasonable to assume something external to the planet will be the same. Many life forms here will be ambivalent. Perhaps our "visitors" will also.

Dophins are the only creature that I can think of that have exhibited help to people.
Maybe Dogs? But I think they fall into the ulterior motive group. Food!
Not many friendly animals considering the variety we have here.

So I am in the tread carefully camp.

I do wonder if the vast distances of space exist to keep us separated ?

[Eden]

Hi Suzy,

The Voyager Golden Record and Active SETI aside, we've already been transmitting television and radio signals for the better part of 100 years.

Whether we choose to actively pursue efforts to make contact or not, if there is anyone or anything out there listening it will only be a matter of time before our presence is detected. Given the relatively small number of stars within 100 light years of the Earth, we've barely made a whisper. It comes as no surprise to me at all that attempts to detect transmissions from other civilizations have been for naught so far. I would also be very surprised if anyone ever encountered Voyager and it's golden record either, for that matter.

People like Hawking and Sagan have raised some very significant points on the matter and I would have to say that I agree with both of them. Even a very conservative iteration of the Drake Equation suggests that there are civilizations out there and if they are considerably more advanced than we are, it may not be in our best interest to bring ourselves to their attention.

[sheeny]

I don't think there's a great need to be too careful at all.

Firstly, we already know that intelligent and technological life is extremely rare. I am careful to make that distinction. There is lots of intelligent life on this planet, but only one intelligent, technological culture. We are no more intelligent than any other humans in the past, but we've only had the technology to detect or signal extra terrestrials for considerably less than 100 years.

Secondly, based on our own experience, the particular type of insanity that leads to a technological culture depletes resources. Why would any "intelligent" life form want to invade a depleted planet? It make very little sense to me.

Thirdly, a lot of the concern about being invaded is the result of conditioning from early, and perhaps most sci-fi stories. "War of the Worlds" was probably the first, was it?

Finally, unless they are really advanced and have learned some really neat physics tricks that are beyond our understanding, we are not going to encounter them, cause space is big... really, really big...:P

:)

Al.

[Starlite]

Suzy, have you seen the movie Battleship starring Liam Neeson and Rihanna.The only thing that will save us from visitors is more space junk around the earth.

[glend]

I can't believe anyone would sight that movie as any sort of reference. Gather up all the rubbish movies and transmit them into space that will keep any aliens far away.

[Starlite]

Yeh, The movie is rubbish but the space junk is real. MKR and THE BLOCK should keep us safe. :P

[astroron]

I am in the camp of send all the messages you like, they will get you no where.
Even if our signals have reached an hypothetical intelligent species on a planet say within 100 light years and they could understand it, any return signal would take another 100 years.
Unless they have some form of transport that can travel faster than light, we wont be getting visitors any time soon.
I still reckon SETI is a waste of money,but if they want to keep looking, good luck to them.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[jenchris]

We might just be getting some return signals from early radio.
Don't forget that the shorter the wavelength, the less will escape earth's atmosphere.
Only the early signals in analogue will be received by et.
can you imagine all the awful reruns of Abbott and Costello being seen by alien intelligence? ??
Broadcasts of Hitler?
They're gonna just send a big nuke.
Like a Mortein bomb

[Julian]

I would definitely advise against it, certain parts of silent groups within our government not only know that beings from other worlds are coming here, but not with the best intentions in mind

[sn1987a]

You're bored aren't you?. :P

[creeksky]

I read it will take something near 40,000 years for Voyager to even pass near a star!
We will either be so advanced by then to retrieve it ourselves or no one will be left here.
I believe an Alien race advanced enough to travel the stars, must come from a civilization of astronomers,everyone here seems helpful and friendly eager to advance those with lessor knowledge,
So I have hopes an advanced race would be eager to help us learn.

[ZeroID]

Meh! by the time any signals from here reach an alien civilization humanity will have wiped itself out anyway.

And if our technology has advanced enough and we go interstellar on our great migration then we will be the threat to other civilizations !

'A doomed civilization searching for a new home amongst the stars'

I can just see a reality show based on that one .. :P

Wait .... I think that'.s been done ..

Warning Will Robinson, Warning !! :lol:

Our signals are already out there, whatever happens, happens although if it ever does I don't think we'll be around to worry about it.

[jenchris]

I can just imagine some grey midget sitting at a lab bench somewhere out there.
"Hey Grock, I've just got some signals come in on my 'panwave' receiver. Sounds like long and short beeps"
"Probably a glitch, Freb. Retune it."
"It's stopped now."
So was heard Marconi's signal across the Atlantic.....

[Baddad]

I have thought on and off about this subject from childhood.:)
It has become a favourite of mine. Its a good subject Suzy.:)

An alien civilization being advanced enough to travel at warp speeds would view us as we view ants. Let sleeping dogs lie. Disturb an ant nest and its trouble. The ants are not a problem if they are left alone and because of the distance.:)

To advanced aliens we are not important. Insignificant. They would not even mention our existence in conversation. Its like when you leave the room and believe the others are going to talk about you. They don't

To attack us for a food source? That is primitive thinking. Give that some thought.

To study us? When studying any colony its best to do it with minimum disruption. If at all possible; No disruption to the lifestyle of the colony.

For sport? To kill off a colony? Think again. Humans are growing more towards encouraging the survival of other life species. Killing as a sport is becoming undesirable and frowned upon. I can not see advanced civilizations condoning such practice.

The possibility of detecting intelligent aliens will always remain. However highly improbable for a long time to come. So to keep your paranoia in check simply remind yourself that you or we are not important to "Them" LOL:lol:

On rare occasions when I worried about some issue, my daughter used to say, "Build a bridge Dad". (Build a bridge?) What did she mean by that. "Get over it"
Ahh, the penny dropped.

Intelligent invading aliens? Its not gonna' happen. Build a bridge:lol::lol:

Cheers

[Pinwheel]

What I find interesting whenever this topic comes up, is it is assumed that alien beings have the same sensory system we have & that they communicate the same way. The odds of that is astronomical, I mean they could hear colours, smell sound or see in radio wavelengths. They simply may not have the sensory organs to know we are even here.

So communication is highly unlikely IMO.

[Baddad]

A cartoon depicted just how aliens would see us.:)

The scene was two aliens in a spaceship. One alien as he is viewing the Earth;

"I see this species as different colonies fighting each other to prove which one is the more peaceful."

Oh so true it hurts LOL

Cheers:)

[Baddad]

Hey Doug, that's a good and valid point.
How about consisting of dark matter?

Getting too much. I think I'll do something else. Anything else. Trying to discuss something we know nothing about or whether it even exists to discuss makes my brain hurt. LOL:lol:

However I do like some of the input to Suzy's thread.

Cheers

[FlashDrive]

They're already here :face: .... some of them are on this Site :P

Flash .....:lol:

[gregbradley]

Good one Flash.

I think its a great idea as long as the guys sending it out put their name and address in the transmission that way they are the first to go to the slave pits:rofl:

Greg

[GeoffW1]

Hi,

Do have a read in "The Eerie Silence" by Prof Paul Davies, an Australian heavily involved in SETI considerations.

The title refers to the Fermi Paradox, which can be expressed in Enrico Fermi's own words "Where is everybody?"

Davies makes many good points, which can be summarised as saying that we just don't know enough about anything, and that the whole SETI listening and signalling program could easily be a complete waste of time and money.

We don't even know how or where life arose here (or on Mars originally maybe?), and therefore whether life on an Earth-like planet (never mind other kinds of planets) is inevitable or just a rare accident. Then, we don't know if the evolution of technological intelligence is inevitable after life arises, or is another possibly unique, accident.

All the methodology we are using now supposes to some degree that intelligent life out there will be sort of like us to some degree, in that we would recognise their signals, and they ours. We don't have any evidence that is the case at all. We may be completely unable to recognise ET's communications, in the way that the ancient Egyptians could not have coped with a Facebook message.

So, I think we are jumping the gun looking and listening right now. I'd spend all the money in investigating Mars and researching the origins of life first.

Cheers

[Zaps]

Inverse-square law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law#Light_and_other_electrom agnetic_radiation): Those signals are completely lost to background noise long before they propagate far.

[AndrewJ]

Based on that, we have nothing to fear.
Just make shields from whatever material that anchor chain was made from and nothing will get through.

Andrew

[Kunama]

I so do wish the was a "Like this Post" button on IIS

[leon]

Nice one Col, :lol: :lol:

Leon :thumbsup:

[AstralTraveller]

Are you coming out Col??

[wasyoungonce]

meh...if Aliens had the ability to travel thru interstellar space then why would they want to take earth for resources? Much much easier to mine the asteroid and Kuiper belt and asteroid belts and Oort cloud for mineral rich deposits.

We would be just too much trouble!

[PeterEde]

If we sent a signal other than what we have been for 100+ years. By the time it gets to anywhere will be 1000s of years off. In that time we could assume with leaps in technology we would have the means to defend ourselves.
Thinking the time for a dedicated signal to reach another world would be 1000s year plus the time for them to reach us. I think we'd be pretty save. Imagine the levels of our technology before they got here

[PeterEde]

Well hopefully who ever gets our message I hope it's not the Borg, Romulans or the Klingons. ET seems nice enough

[FlashDrive]

eeer..!! no :D ...... and I'm not telling you where my Space Ship is ....:P.

Col....

[Kunama]

I fear that by the time another civilisation gets interested enough in a self-destructive species like Homo sapiens, which rather ironically comes from Latin for 'Wise man', we as a species will be long gone.

In the meantime I am going to enjoy my cellar of Penfolds reds.........

[GrahamL]

The tricky bit is to know just when to send out your resume before the slave pits open:)

Contacting other worlds ?,,I think fear greed and prejudice has us all tied up for a while killing each other for now ,when we sort that out ,,then maybe we start to look seriously for other fights to start.

[troypiggo]

One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the ants will soon be here. And I for one welcome our new insect overlords. I’d like to remind them that as a trusted IceInSpace member, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.

[tonybarry]

Coincidentally I have been reading up on the Wow! signal received in 1977.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal

It seems interesting, until you realise that it becomes very difficult for it to pass as science (because it is very hard to have a repeatable test for such things).

So whatever we do to detect ETs, it has to be science based or we are really just wasting time. If it cannot be verified then we can't discuss it except by using faith based language, and that always fouls things up.

The Wiki article suggests that the transmission of the Wow signal, if from interstellar space, would require 2.3GW ... not an insignificant amount of power to dump into an antenna.

Regards,
Tony Barry
WSAAG

[rally]

Its an interesting question Suzy.

My initial thoughts :

If an alien race was so sophisticated to be capable of galactic or intergalactic travel for the puposes of "raiding" planets or seeding new homes for the expansion of new satellite civilisations or even relocation (ie interests that are detrimental to mankind) - then their access to the near unlimited resources to build and manage a vast number of unmanned intergalactic research drones would mean they wouldn't be needing to wait for us to identify ourselves, they would have already have a drone on its way to investigate or perhaps already been and gone.
All of this on time scales well beyond our ordinary imagination.

If their ambition was driven by need, then they wont simply be waiting around for an accidental contact - they'll be proactively using whatever technological means they have to seek out targets that meet their needs.

Or on the other hand - Its already happened and mankind is merely a product of their previous visit ! . . . so we only need to fear ourselves.

As for the broadcasts - on the one hand I think advertising ourselves leaves us vulnerable since we have no idea of the intentions of some other race wanting to come here, assuming that any exist or are likely to detect us given the huge spatial and temporal ranges involved.

But would one of our broadcasts be likely to be heard above the much stronger signals that a technologically advanced race might be capable of measuring now at a planetary level that might potentially be capable of detecting advanced lifeforms, habitabilities, mineral reosurces etc etc from afar.

Eg it was barely more than a decade ago that extraplanetary detection was pipe dream and now we are able to detect planets down to quite small sizes and even determine many of their basic qualities.
So who knows what detection capabilities might be possible if someone had optical and radio telescopes in space that equated to earth size or better yet earth orbit size !
Surely that would be as feasible as interstellar travel.

So if their interest was driven by a real need for resources then they could probably sense that remotely or just infer that from our stars signature, so our broadcasts would possibly be irrelevant.
If their interest was making contact with another advanced civilisation (or a remnant of their own ?) then maybe our broadcasts could be beneficial.

So to some degree I am ambivalent, mainly because I dont really think it will make any difference.
Whatever happens - its all part of the evolutionary process ! and evolution is not necessarily kind to any specific species - just ask the dinosaurs !

As was stated we know so little about everything in this field so I am guessing there can be as many arguments as there are debaters.

[Pinwheel]

I can just imagine PM Abbott saying "We'll stop the galactic spaceships & save lives by stopping them crossing interstellar space in these unsafe starships". :rofl:

[Baddad]

:lol: :rofl: :lol:

I like that one Doug.
I can imagine that aliens may abduct the Mad Monk to probe and investigate why a human has very little common sense that is normally associated with an intelligent brain.

[Ric]

We have to develop warp drive first before they contact us.

I would like like to see contact established with some-one out there, our planet needs a bit of a shake up.

[TechnoViking]

a funny look at why Aliens will not visit us, Neil Degrasse Tyson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74yIuLTMyJw

[clive milne]

The following article appeared in the Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie-kean/john-podesta-pulling-back_b_6717872.html

It was the tweet heard round the worlds. On John Podesta's last day at the White House on February 13th, the longtime Presidential counselor, who is likely to chair a 2016 Hillary Clinton campaign, dashed off a confession that lit the blogosphere with thousands of retweets and comments: "Finally, my biggest failure of 2014: Once again not securing the #disclosure of the UFO files."

Along with the media, which couldn't resist a spoof by late-night comedian Jimmy Fallon, conspiracy theorists are having a field day. Taking Podesta's barb as confirmation of fantastic coverups by operatives with knowledge of extraterrestrials and twisted political agendas, they imagine Podesta himself holds devastating secrets. Some are claiming with bravado that their own activism is what prompted his recent lighthearted remark.

The facts hardly bear that out.

Actually, as surprising as the tweet was, Podesta's position on the controversial issue was not exactly news. A staunch proponent of open government, he has previously called for the release of any government files on unidentified flying objects, or more broadly, unidentified aerial phenomena (UAP), that merit such action under existing law. As Chief of Staff for President Bill Clinton, Podesta pressed for Executive Order 12958 which declassified broad categories of information formerly withheld on the grounds of national security.

In 2002, Podesta began publicly supporting what became a landmark Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit filed by the Coalition for Freedom of Information, an independent advocacy group. NASA had been stonewalling and refusing to release its records concerning a significant 1965 UFO incident in Kecksburg, PA. Many witnesses described seeing a fireball in the evening sky, followed by a controlled landing and the systematic military recovery of a spacecraft-like object, rushed away on the back of a flatbed truck. As reported by local radio and newspapers, U.S. military personnel cordoned off the area, investigated the site, and left without ever providing a full report of the incident other than to dismiss it as a meteor.



One of many witness drawings of the Kecksburg object. Cell phones were not in use then. (Credit: courtesy Stan Gordon)

During the lawsuit's final hearing in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia in 2007, the exasperated Presiding Judge, Emmet G. Sullivan, declared that "heads should roll" at NASA and that NASA's case was a "ball of yarn." He approved a settlement that required NASA to comb through hundreds of documents in specified locations, and provide them to journalist and plaintiff Leslie Kean, under the watchful eye of the court.

Success at forcing an agency to do this kind of extensive historical search under FOIA without Congressional intervention was unprecedented. Podesta called the victory "a triumph for open government and the spirit of inquiry."


John Podesta provided public support during the FOIA lawsuit against NASA, filed by the Coalition for Freedom of Information in 2003. (Credit: courtesy SCI FI Channel)

But - there was one problem. The resulting documents did not include one iota of information relating to the Kecksburg case, despite an earnest and thorough effort by NASA staff. Three hundred boxes were searched, on top of the hundreds of pages released during the court proceedings prior to the settlement. Yet they revealed nothing about the case at hand.

Could these be the "UFO files" that Podesta was alluding to in his tweet? Might there be others as well, stored in locations inaccessible to the FOIA in violation of the law?

Podesta has been a brave voice for sanity and objectivity on a subject that is generally considered unworthy of serious discussion. In a foreword for Kean's 2010 book, UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record, Podesta wrote: "The time to pull the curtain back on this subject is long overdue." Describing himself as "a curious skeptic" who understands the difference between fact and fiction, he said the American people "want to know, and they can handle the truth."

Official investigations around the world have consistently found that a small but significant percentage of sightings defy conventional explanation, most of them involving police officers, military personnel, pilots and air traffic controllers. Physical evidence such as radar returns, measurable effects on the environment, or scientifically analyzed photographs accompany the best cases.

In 2011, Podesta hosted a private meeting of government officials, scientists, and military and intelligence experts, organized by Kean and her coalition, at his liberal think tank, the Center for American Progress. A panel presented expert briefings backing the establishment of a modest official project to evaluate UAP in cooperation with other countries.

"The official position of the U.S., which has denied the existence of any abnormal aerial phenomena since 1969, is a weighty handicap and has a negative influence on the attitude of many governments," wrote Yves Sillard, former Director General of the French National Space Center, in his briefing paper. "If this position could be modified, the U.S. would probably play a leading role in this necessary international effort."

Ricardo Bermúdez, a retired Air Force general who directs the Chilean investigative effort, agrees. "United States participation would be beneficial for all countries," he stated.

A U.S. agency is long overdue. The Air Force's official investigation, Project Blue Book, was terminated in 1970 after two decades, since no sightings were determined to pose a national security threat. Yet over 700 cases remained unexplained. Since then, no branch of the government has investigated UAP.

This lack of both transparency and responsive action to alarming UFO incidents undermines public trust. Some unidentified objects may be attributable to foreign military aircraft or drones, and should be of general defense interest. Other phenomena display such unusual characteristics that they are of broader scientific interest. Under certain circumstances, UAP can even raise air safety concerns. Still, the FAA discourages pilots from reporting any such incidents, in stark contrast to policy in Europe and South America.

Official agencies in France and Chile, along with other South American countries, conduct rigorous, open UAP investigations. In 2014, the heads of these offices met in Paris for the first time, to begin a cooperative venture. The U.K. spent decades collecting data, but closed down its office in 2008 due to the overwhelming stream of Freedom of Information requests besieging the staff. Interest was so great that the Ministry of Defense decided to simply release all its documents online.


Xavier Passot, director of the French UAP agency GEIPAN, and Ricardo Bermúdez of Chile's CEFAA met on Oct. 30, 2014 to initiate a cooperative effort (Credit: courtesy CEFAA)

Yet here at home, a 2012 poll showed that nearly 80% of Americans believe the government has concealed information about UFOs. As a result, frustrated citizens turn to fringe conspiracists seeking some way of understanding our irrational denial of this very real phenomenon.

When UFO events occur here, civilian groups do the best they can in battling the obstacles to investigating them. At Chicago's O'Hare International Airport on Nov. 7, 2006, a metallic disc was observed hovering over the United Airlines terminal for at least five minutes, before shooting straight up in the sky, at great speed, cutting a hole in the cloud bank. This was not a flying machine known to any of the aviation experts who witnessed or later analyzed the event.

On March 13, 1997, hundreds if not thousands of citizens, including the governor at the time, saw massive delta-shaped objects gliding silently over Arizona. Like the Kecksburg case, this event has never been explained despite a class action lawsuit filed in 2000 by witnesses in Phoenix. A court-ordered search for information was issued to the Department of Defense, but once again, no pertinent records were obtained.

Nonetheless, much more data on UFOs has been accumulated than ever before, and files have been released around the world. The phenomenon's physical reality is now firmly established. But its nature and origin remain a problem. Meanwhile, astronomers have reported that there could be as many as 40 billion habitable Earth-size planets in our galaxy; one out of every five sunlike stars has a planet the size of Earth orbiting it in the Goldilocks zone.

We need to join the other countries taking responsible action in addressing this persistent mystery, preferably at the White House level where The Office of Science and Technology Policy is well positioned to take on this task. John Podesta supports the effort to appoint a government staffer for this purpose - and that is no surprise.

[5ash]

I must admit the search for intelligent life elsewhere does seem a waste of time. The Drake equation is difficult to prove without any solid supporting evidence , the names Stephen hawking and others may give it credence but don't prove it.. However just like the space race there will be spin offs that benefit us all , but let's suppose there is intelligent life out there , would it not follow the same self interested path as us and eventually pollute and multiply its self out of existence ?
I honestly believe that life abounds in the universe but doubt that it necessarily results in creative intelligent life .
Philip

[FlashDrive]

Interesting Reading Clive ......

What ever happened to the ' closed group of the 12 ' ...called Majestic Twelve.

Not much has been mentioned about this lot ( I'm not suggesting here ) but for a long time indeed in the open media.

Personally ...I don't know what to make of all of this ..... :face:

Col.... :D

[Baddad]

Good one James,:)

That is quite an eye opener. It is what I believed and Neil has put it in simple terms. Fantastic.:)

[clive milne]

Col, I can't say I had ever heard of them before you directed my attention to them.

fwiw) I remain sceptical, especially when it comes to former politicians.
Paul Hellyer is an fine example. Anyone who claims to be aware of alien civilisations from the Pleiades is most likely a charlatan or is consciously disseminating disinformation, which is interesting in itself.

[FlashDrive]

I decided to ' Google ' the name ' who were the Majestic 12 '

This is what I got ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12

An extract......


In UFO conspiracy theories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_conspiracy_theory), Majestic 12 (or MJ-12) is the code name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_name) of an alleged secret committee of scientists, military leaders, and government officials, formed in 1947 by an executive order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order_%28United_States%29 ) by U.S. President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States) Harry S. Truman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman) to facilitate recovery and investigation of alien spacecraft. The concept originated in a series of supposedly "leaked" secret government documents first circulated by ufologists in 1984. Upon examination, the FBI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Bureau_of_Investigation) declared the documents to be "completely bogus", and many ufologists consider them to be an elaborate hoax.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12#cite_note-Donovan2011-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12#cite_note-FBI_bogus-2) Majestic 12 remains popular among some UFO conspiracy theorists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_conspiracy_theory) and the concept has appeared in popular culture including television, film, and literature.

The concept of "Majestic Twelve" emerged during a period in the 1980s when ufologists believed there had been a cover-up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover-up) of the Roswell UFO incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_incident) and speculated some secretive upper tier of the US government was responsible.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12#cite_note-Goldberg2008-3) Their suppositions appeared to be confirmed in 1984 when ufologist Jaime Shandera received an envelope containing film which, when developed, showed images of eight pages of documents that appeared to be briefing papers describing "Operation Majestic Twelve".[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12#cite_note-Goldberg2008-3) The documents purported to reveal a secret committee of twelve supposedly authorized by US president Harry Truman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Truman) in 1952, and explain how the crash of an alien spacecraft at Roswell in 1947 had been concealed, how the recovered alien technology could be exploited, and how the US should engage with extraterrestrial life in future.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12#cite_note-Goldberg2008-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12#cite_note-Knight2003-4)
Shandera and his ufologist colleagues Stanton T. Friedman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanton_T._Friedman) and Bill Moore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Moore_%28ufologist%29) say they later received a series of anonymous messages that led them to find what has been called the "Cutler/Twining memo" in 1985 while searching declassified files in the National Archives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Archives_and_Records_Admin istration). Purporting to be written by General Nathan Twining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Twining) to President Eisenhower's assistant Robert Cutler and containing a reference to Majestic 12, the memo is widely held to be a forgery, likely planted as part of a hoax.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12#cite_note-Frazier-5) Historian Robert Goldberg wrote that the ufologists came to believe the story despite the documents being "obviously planted to bolster the legitimacy of the briefing papers".[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12#cite_note-Goldberg2008-3)
Claiming to be connected to the United States Air Force Office of Special Investigations, a man named Richard Doty told filmmaker Linda Moulton Howe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Moulton_Howe) that the MJ-12 story was true, and showed Howe unspecified documents purporting to prove the existence of small, grey humanoid aliens originating from the Zeta Reticuli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_Reticuli) star system. Doty reportedly promised to supply Howe with film footage of UFOs and an interview with an alien being, although no footage ever materialized.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12#cite_note-Goldberg2008-3)
Soon, distrust and suspicion led to disagreements within the ufology community over the authenticity of the MJ-12 documents, and Moore was accused of taking part in an elaborate hoax, while other ufologists and debunkers such as Philip Klass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Klass) were accused of being "disinformation agents".[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12#cite_note-Knight2003-4)
The Federal Bureau of Investigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Bureau_of_Investigation) began its own investigation of the supposed "secret" documents and quickly formed doubts as to their authenticity. The U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_Office_of_Special_Investi gations) stated that no such committee had ever been authorized or formed, and that the documents were “bogus.” The FBI subsequently declared the MJ-12 documents to be "completely bogus.”[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12#cite_note-FBI_bogus-2)
Later in 1996, a document called the MJ-12 "Special Operations Manual" circulated among ufologists. It is also widely considered to be a fake and "a continuation of the MJ-12 myth

Col.

[Pinwheel]

But they would say that wouldn't they! "Nothing to see here, Move along!"

[Suzy]

That's a lot of good food for thought, Rally, thank you.

And Clive, that article was a super read :thumbsup:.

It's been an interesting thread reading everyone's thoughts on the subject, thank you all. :)

[Suzy]

This is what Stephen Hawking had to say on the subject:




Stephen Hawking: Alien Contact Could Be Risky

April 26, 2010
By KI MAE HEUSSNER via World News (http://abcnews.go.com/wn)



Alien encounters may seem like sure-fire winners to Hollywood, but one of the world's most famous scientists thinks they may be "too risky" be be worth seeking.
In a new Discovery Channel documentary (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/stephen-hawking/about/about.html), which premiered Sunday night, British astrophysicist Stephen Hawking (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Science/wireStory?id=7387031) said that communicating with aliens could be a threat (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=10475239) to Earth.
Hawking said it is likely that alien life exists (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/video/stephen-hawking-alien-theory-10474793), but a visit from extraterrestrials might be similar to Christopher Columbus' arrival in the Americas.

"If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed in America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans," he said. "We only have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn't want to meet."
In the new program, "Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking (http://topics.abcnews.go.com/topic/Stephen-Hawking)," he speculated that aliens' capabilities "would be only limited by how much power they could harness and control, and that could be far more than we might first imagine."
He said it might even be possible for aliens to harvest the energy from an entire star.
"Such advanced aliens would perhaps become nomads, looking to conquer and colonize whatever planets they can reach," Hawking said.



Humans Only Recently 'Tapped Into Our Cosmic Neighborhood'

But don't start worrying quite yet. It's unlikely that those traveling troublemakers will visit us anytime soon, said space watchers.
Jill Tarter, director of the Center for SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Life) Research at the SETI Institute (http://www.seti.org), said that her center uses radio telescopes and optical telescopes to listen for signals of technology from extraterrestrial life. So far, after more than 40 years, there has not been a peep.
She said SETI's technology is advanced enough that it can detect signals from up to 1,000 light-years away. There are about one million stars in that zone. A signal could have been sent 1,000 years ago, before that civilization had any knowledge of Earth.



Scientists Search for Extraterrestrial Life

But she said that as humans have leaked radio and television broadcasts into space (http://blogs.abcnews.com/scienceandsociety/2008/01/anyone-out-ther.html) over the past 100 years, it's possible that other planets could be monitoring Earth.
"It's quite reasonable that we might be on someone's transmission list," she said.
She emphasized, however, that though it's an effort worth considering, SETI doesn't actively transmit messages to space. So far, it has only listened.
"The question of whether or not we should transmit is a question that deserves a global conversation, and we're trying to figure out how to have that," Tarter said.

Ian O'Neill, space producer for Discovery News, an ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com) partner, said that humans didn't start leaking transmissions into space until the first radio broadcasts about 100 years ago. Given that our galaxy alone is 100,000 light years across, relatively speaking, he said, those signals haven't traveled too far.
"We've only tapped into our cosmic neighborhood recently," he said."That time scale is huge."
He also said that though scientists believe that life exists across the universe, there's no actual evidence of it yet. It could be hundreds, if not thousands, of years, he said, before human messages get an extraterrestrial response.
And if aliens do visit Earth, who knows what they would be like, he said.



Source: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Space/stephen-hawking-alien-contact-risky/story?id=10478157

[gaa_ian]

We all like to have a go at the UFO followers. But it should be acknowledged that there are some unsolved UFO mysteries out there with no good rational explanation. It's fine to be a sceptic. But important to be "Sceptically Open Minded" on what the possible explanations may be.
We can only hope that their ARE civilisations out there that do have benign intent, who ARE willing to help us & prepared to make contact.
If not & if we keep on our current exponential path of population growth, our future will not be a bright one. Perhaps we will join the other 99% of species that have existed on this planet and ...............:violin:

[Kunama]

Given that there are likely billions of Earth-like planets, I think it would be rather Earthling-like to believe that here, on this 3rd rock from the rather ordinary star, Sol, is the only place where 'life' took hold and progressed in its evolution to what we rather egotistically like to call 'intelligent' life.

We are failing to deal with the basics of survival, that is, the careful rationing of our supplies to ensure our existence. At the rate we are consuming the precious resources of 'Mother Earth' and polluting the very air that sustains us, we need not be concerned that life 'alien to us' is going to be a threat for our existence.

We are our own worst enemy .............

In answer to Suzy's thread title, Yes, I think we do need to 'risk it' and try to contact a more intelligent 'species' as, on our own, we are not going to survive ...........

[astro_nutt]

I'll have to say no to this one. It's like sending out invitations to everyone and not knowing anything about them.
Our own existence, (as the result of evolutionary/circumstantial events), is unique to our Planet.
Consider other forms of life not of this planet, which may have evolved and exist beyond our level of reasoning/understanding.
If you want to reduce the risk of harm, don't send out invitations!

[Zaps]

The scale of the universe is such that any species capable of traversing it within practical spans of time would likely regard us at most the way we do bacteria.

It's not really a question worth worrying about considering even the most powerful and focused of signals yet sent into space by humanity will become indistinguishable from background noise long before encountering any E.T. receiver.

[sil]

Not sure I should respond. We are Nothing in the universe, we are so selfish it has become background noise we ignore.it is so egotistical that any other species could experience reality in a way that makes sense to us. If we made irrefutable contact with an "alien civilization" our own governments would mess things up and regardless become a new excuse to tax us even more and remove a few more freedoms in the guise of protecting us. So many are already comfortable at losing so much in the past decade or two.

Searching I think is a good thing, it contributes to the sum of human knowledge and improving technologies. Spamming out messages we are already doing, doing more i see is a waste of time and just additional "noise" to non-optical forms of astronomy. Plus of course the legal wrangles over copyright ownership of the information being sent (pharmaceutical companies "own" portions of DNA already, preventing rivals from producing medications even when medical science has little to offer so many existing afflictions), then there are the broadcast licensing fees for whatever spectra the information is broadcast. The project would be a mess of people trying to profit.

I for one would love humanity to find complex life elsewhere: a plant, pond scum, critters. That alone will answer so many questions and pose so many more. The implications of finding lifeforms that are or are not carbon based. Have or don't have DNA. Have recognisable physical characteristics. We know nothing really. And its sad we don't value the nothing we do know.

[Pinwheel]

If our Sun for no particular reason went Super Nova tonight, do you think anyone in the universe would give a rats! Earth....where's that? :sadeyes:

[deanm]

Well Doug, as long as the SN event happened during Australia/NZ's night-time, at least we'd be ok...!
Dean

[clive milne]

Well said!
I don't have a position in the debate because I simply don't have enough information to form an opinion. And like yourself, I don't make the mistake of presuming that the pro-UFO argument is completely lacking in credibility as a priori. Whilst there are many charlatans and flakes to be found on that side of the fence it is also true that the political establishment and the global mainstream media are disingenuous and self serving with few exceptions. It is also true that some of our scientific institutions have been corrupted. NIST for example, are guilty of the most egregious scientific fraud and the rot in that organisation goes right to the top. It is telling that Fox CNN, ABC etc) are wilfully complicit in deflecting public attention away from NIST's criminality.

I wouldn't rely on them to form my opinion anymore than I would rely on charlatans and frauds of the ilk of ALex Jones or David Icke.

[brian nordstrom]

:shrug:I pity the Alien's,, we are a violent race :question:.......

Brian.

[xelasnave]

If we observed a planet we could Reach with resourses we need inhabited by life we consider inferior, do you think we would plunder or trade.
Trying to make contact is great for driving technology irrespective of results.
And anything that occupies humans time and resources is good for our market economy.
It is inconceivable but a Borg like species could be out there and so we really must deploy battle stars to patrol the solar syst em outter regions.
Jobs for everyone.

[Zaps]

SETI is an insignificant economic and technology driver. The likelihood of success is ridiculously small due to the very nature of fundamental physics: The universe is too large and everything is too far away. This is not a mere engineering challenge.

[xelasnave]

I suppose you are right.
Should we still deploy death stars.

[MattT]

Yep go for it I say....Interesting read Clive, and Tyson is very thought provoking.

I'd like to know if this aliens have this weird abstract thing that we call.... 'money'

Even the name sounds weird on it's own....money..... and also if hitting, kicking, throwing and running around around after balls are a noteworthy event...

Any civilisation that did make it here would have cleared off soon after, based on the 1% Tyson rule!

[Suzy]

Matt, you raised a very good point, I never thought of it like that. I think you are so right. :sadeyes:

[mr bruess]

Should Humanity Try to Contact Alien Civilisations. It may be dangerous.
some of the aliens may not come in peace.
Look at orsen wells radio show which listeners thought they were invaded by beings from mars and people got scared and fled their homes in terror.
Those aliens can travese the great distances to get here by bending space and creating worm holes .
As einstein said,space can be bent and warped and i can image some advanced aliens will have the technology to do this.
NASA is working on a warp drive.Just check the news.

[xelasnave]

One can only wonder and imagine how an encounter would go.
Let's hope they will be peace loving and non violent like us.

[Zaps]

Any species capable of practical interstellar travel is unlikely to have much interest in us.

[ZeroID]

\

Other than as a specimen to study maybe. :P

Who knows? They could be benevolent explorers wanting to share technologies and grow trade and culture. We portray Star Trek as going forth to boldly explore the universe with peaceful intentions despite our worldly war like actions.

We call ourselves the human race but we are a mix of very different cultures and beliefs many of which if they came from the sky we would be calling as hostile invaders. 'Aliens' come from other countries as well as possibly other worlds.

Maybe we would find out where we came from, pansperma, across the universe. Discover we are the offspring of a distant world(s) scattered to find other planets and continue the species in whatever form was required to live in an environment.

Oxygen btw, is regarded as a corrosive and bad environment. It oxidises and corrodes other elements. Are our galactic cousins silicon based life forms, or as recently postulated arsenic ? The three elements have atomic similarities that could under differing situations possibly support life. And there may be others we cannot even conceive.
Our world may be seen as to be so toxic to another life form they could bar us from ever being contacted.

Having spilled my weird and wonderful thoughts on the matter I think it comes down to the fact that we are an incredibly long way from anyone else out there and we are unlikely to see them in our lifetimes. And there is nothing we could do about it anyway. We just better be welcoming so we don't give the wrong idea, first impressions count you know ;)

[Kunama]

Perhaps they set out on their way toward Earth when dinosaurs still roamed the this spaceball and are just about here.

[Zaps]

A species developed enough for practical interstellar travel would regard us in the same way we do lichen or mold.

[marki]

Has anyone ever thought the reason for the lack of contact may very well be that "the aliens" are in fact more dim-witted then we are as a species? Or perhaps their societies are also run by bean counters who won't let them play in space let alone mass an invasion force. Perhaps a thread to discuss the possibility of stoopid aliens is in order here :P.

[Suzy]

I do! :)

[clive milne]

Pick the odd one out....


http://astoundable.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/camouflage-Animal-2.jpg

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/naturelibrary/images/ic/credit/640x395/c/ca/camouflage/camouflage_1.jpg

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01808/camouflage-spider_1808420i.jpg

http://www.duskyswondersite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/camouflage-lizard-and-leaf.jpg

http://www.somepets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Camouflage-animal3.jpg

http://www.wherecoolthingshappen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/animalcamouflage09-640x389.jpg

http://procinctu.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/dodo.jpg

[FlashDrive]

The ' last ' one....Do Do Birds

All the rest are still here today...

Col....