Moravian 16803 experience of

[dradford]

Hi All

I have just placed an order for a Planewave 14 CDK ( http://planewave.com/products-page/telescopes/14-inch-cdk-optical-tube-assembly/ ) to go on my EQ8

I have decided on a Kai 16803 to go on it and are considering the Czech G4 1600 Moravian
http://www.gxccd.com/art?id=383&cat=1&lang=409
https://myastroshop.com.au/moravian/index.htm

It would obviously be safer to go for a FLI or SBig model but especially with the American dollar soaring the price differential to the Moravian including filter wheel OAG is large. I have tracked down reviews but they are sparse. Quite a few reports in European French/Italian site (thank you Google translator). Negative reports are very rare of all Moravian cameras

Is anyone using the Moravian 16803 and if so any reports would be appreciated. Any general reports on Moravian quality etc would also be welcome.

Thanks

Don

[PRejto]

I have the G2-8300 model and I have to say that "now" I am happy with this camera. Initially I wasn't a happy customer. There was an initial USB connection problem and this was fixed rapidly. However, a few years ago the driver situation wasn't nearly as good as it now is. The camera worked well with SIPS (the supplied software) but not well with ASCOM - and there was no native X2 driver for TheSkyX. Those problems have all been addressed and I feel confident in recommending these cameras! The cooling is good and so is the build quality. I've also have had recent excellent direct customer service re drivers. I do find the download time from the G2-8300 to be a little slow but cannot speak about the 16803 chip camera. I do think you would be well served by the camera.

Peter

[clive milne]

Congrats on the Planewave Don.

If it was me, the G4 9000 would be my choice of camera to bolt on to it.

best
c

[dradford]

thanks Peter
The reports on build quality seem to be generally good.
Download time was a concerning factor
On the G1600 22 sec s was reported on the Moravian site. Oddly although FLI claimed a quick downloads I couldn't find an exact time in seconds anywhere to compare!

Thanks Clive This was a question that has been in my mind

the 9000

Pros Slightly better QE
quicker download
.96"/pixel with Planewave (against .72"/pixel with 16803 a little oversampled)
minimally cheaper

Cons
Less Pixels
RBI - residual bulk image or ghosting I have read is more prominent with 9000 Anyone seen this ?
The best explanation of this and NIR to counteract it is on the Moravian site at http://gxccd.com/art?id=418&lang=409

SO I guess it was the fear of RBI which led me to the 16803 Is the slightly better QE enough to go the other way??

Don

[clive milne]

I was figuring that the sensitivity of the 9000 would be around double that of the 1600 on extended objects when you factor in the relative area of their pixels and the slightly better QE. I suppose that deserves some qualification though; In circumstances where the background signal is low (Narrowband for example) the 1600 will recoup some of the deficit by virtue of its better S/N ratio. (a function of its lower dark current)

A tough call really.

[bert]

The 9000 chip is horrible.

This comes from a friend in the USA that has both the 9000 and 16803 wrapped in the same apogee bodies. To give him some credibility, he is chief engineer of the palmomar 200 inch.

The 16803 has only one flaw I can find... It does not gain signal to noise by binning. Don't know why, but I have come across it by 2 seperate observatories, who have done exhaustive testing on it. One observatory ended up going for an e2v 4240 chip, as their purpose is photometry, for which is the 16803 is not suited.

Have fun.

[gregbradley]

.72 arc sec /pixel is not oversampled. Depending on which mathematics camp you are in .66 arc sec/pixel may be considered ideal. Sampling Nyquist theory is 3X not 2X (minimum of 2X). My CDK17 is .67 arc secs/pixel and it seems pretty ideal. Too small a pixel and you notice the seeing limiting effect much more heavily.

There are no prices at that link. How much is the G4 with KAF16803?
The KAF16803 will give a residual ghost image very occasionally. For example I imaged the comet recently and it has a very bright head. I then took a few darks and noticed a bright spot that faded with successive darks where the comet head was.

I have also seen that once when a jet flew through an image.
But usually I can't detect but I assume there is some low level of it still present.

A FLI Microline 16803 would be a good choice but I assume still expensive.

A CDK14 sounds like a nice scope.

Greg.

[RobF]

Would certainly be interesting to know the price of the Moravian roughly versus (presumably) much more expensive FLI.

(Dreaming of bolting a 16803 on to the FSQ - sigh......:prey:)

[RickS]

IISer Oztronomer is a Moravian user. AFAIK he is happy, but maybe he'll chime in. He has the KAF-8300 camera.



It's a lovely combination, Rob :) I'm getting inspired by the Tak images we're getting from SRO and thinking about a grand Tak/U16M mosaic from Southern skies once the weather improves.

[LewisM]

Just going off track a LITTLE, the difference in price between FLI and the others is, IMHO worth the extra.

I have had the occasion to compare the FLI ML 8300 to the Atik 383L+ - both the same chip. The FLI was miles ahead in terms of cooling (the FLI was at -30 in around 2 minutes, vs the Atik getting to -16.5 in 3 minutes, never getting to -30 set point) and download times - full frame on the FLI through MaxIM DL5 was approx. 3 seconds. The Atik took close on 12 seconds.

Having said that though, the Atik's are still exceptional value for money IMHO, and build quality is good.

Can't talk about Moravian, as I haven't even held one let alone used one.

I cannot speak highly enough of FLI. I used to love SBIG....until I got an FLI.

[clive milne]

That is good to know....

[clive milne]

The microline694 being a case in point. The SX trius 694 has 6e- of readout noise, the ML is down to 3e-! That is up there with the best pro cameras with e2v chips.

[dradford]

Thanks for the opinions on the 9000 chip I am reassured that I discounted it now!

RE Differential prices

The FLI proline with 7 position filter is approx $16,150 and $13699 on its own (could be a little higher with recent American dollar moves) http://www.bintel.com.au/searchedproduct.aspx?name=16803 Microline only slightly cheaper.

The Moravian G4 16803 is approx $9700 with 7 position filter wheel and $8900 without.
(all with GST)

That 66% higher price

Does anyone know the download time for the FLI 16803?

Cooling on FLI is -55C and only -45C on the Moravian , Sbig -50C, Atik don't make a 16803.

Don

[gregbradley]

There are 2 download speeds on the Proline. The faster one is about 2 seconds. Its pretty fast.

45C cooling should be fine. -20C should be OK. I usually use the Proline at -35C. Lines etc fade with higher cooling but darks will remove them anyway.

That is a big price difference so I see what you mean.

The FLI filter wheel to me is overpriced, the camera is probably fair price.
I can't see the price in the filter wheel. Its a fairly simple item. The Apogee FW50 filter wheel is also about half the price of the FLI. Although their cutouts in the carousel were at one time causing dust swirl making flats not take out all dust donuts for some imaging in dusty areas. They may have corrected that now - that was a long time ago.

See if you can get a 10 mins -20C dark at 1x1 sent to you. I can post an equivalent one from the Proline. Darks show up a lot of the potential defects if any and the differences in noise from the electronics used.


Greg.

[ozstronomer]

[QUOTE=RickS;1150037]IISer Oztronomer is a Moravian user. AFAIK he is happy, but maybe he'll chime in. He has the KAF-8300 camera.


Don

As Rick said I have the Moravian G2-8300 and I've been very happy with it's performance. The build quality is good, It easily drops to -20 and maintains temp settings and just works.

Cheers Geoff

[dradford]

Thanks Geoff

the Moravain is looking very tempting. As the new scope is not due for 3-4 months I have a little while to decide. However I have to let Planewave know so the correct connections are supplied.

Hi Greg
I will ask on Monday
However there are some figures here from a cloudy nights review of the Moravian Instruments G4 16000 by Michael Miller
http://www.cloudynights.com/page/articles/cat/user-reviews/moravian-instruments-g4-16000-r2815


" I have been testing a Moravian Instruments G4 for the last 90 days. The camera is on loan from the company. Below I have listed my findings from experiences over a variety of imaging sessions performed during that time frame. Filters used were AstroDon Gen II E series. The equipment is located at a remote observatory and images were shot all hours of darkness about 70% of the evenings.

Initial impression-
The camera is very well built, solid and reminds me of a QSI body design. The filter wheel is very compact considering it holds 7 50 mm square filters. Connections were straight forward and solid. Installing the filters was simple and took less than 20 minutes.

CCD Chip characteristics-
The Kodak KAF 16803 chip displayed no detectable bad columns in calibration files and was on the upper quality level of chips I've used. The AP4Win measurements are:

Bias Sum Mean: 999.901 ADUs
Bias Diff StdDev: 7.9189 ADUs
Flat Sum Mean: 80021.4 ADUs
Flat Diff StdDev: 234.557 ADUs
Dark Frame Mean: 506.992 ADUs

Derived Results.....

Conversion Factor = 1.44 electrons/ADU
Readout Noise = 8.05 electrons RMS
Mean Dark Current = 0.005625 e/pix/sec during 1800.0 second exposure at -29.8 C

The read noise is below Kodak specs and was evident in the images. Images calibrated very well and minimal noise reduction in post processing was necessary. "

I guess you would have to do a dark at -29.8 C to compare!

Has anyone used the Moravian OAG?
http://www.gxccd.com/art?id=436&lang=405
I like the fact they make the filter wheel and OAG themselves to fit the G4.

Don

[strongmanmike]

As far as I am concerned, if you want to just know you have the very best, the BMW of CCD cameras if you like, go with FLI, however I am sure the Moravian will be perfectly adequate once calibration and processing are perfected :thumbsup: and a considerable saving when the dust settles too...up to you :)

I have had two FLI's (11002 & 16803) and both were absolutely brilliant cameras with fast downloads, great cooling and low noise compared to their competitors.

Mike

[gregbradley]

Hi Greg
I will ask on Monday
However there are some figures here from a cloudy nights review of the Moravian Instruments G4 16000 by Michael Miller
http://www.cloudynights.com/page/articles/cat/user-reviews/moravian-instruments-g4-16000-r2815


Not the best images but that's the processing and scope not the camera.

A dark would tell a lot as it shows up things like amp glow and noise levels, bad columns etc.

Its not unusual for these large chips to have a vertical line or two. This is different from a bad column and comes from the vertical readout. 11002 chips get it as well, so do 6303E chips. They dark subtract out.

Greg.

[Peter Ward]

FYI SBIG's STX16803 is $US 11590 with filter wheel.

It remains the only 16803 system capable of using AO, with internal and (optional) external guiders.

[ramv]

I'm glad I found this thread here just as I was looking to upgrade to a 16803 chip from the KAF8300. Given the favorable USD Euro exchange rate these days, the G4 16000 is almost affordable!

I posted a while ago to CloudyNights and Mike Miller who reviewed it there responded with a few bias frames. They looked pretty good to me. His review was of a loaner camera which MI had loaned out to him to get the word out on the camera. I would have really liked to see some real user reviews.

Further what struck me as a bit odd was the fact Mike actually ended up buying an Apogee after testing the MI G4!

But the price is good and I am definitely interested. I would however love to see a few user reviews before I send the money over.

--Ram

[100percent]

Hi all,
Just joined your Forum. Some info regarding the Moravian G4 16000 received on 17/2/2015 '.....RBI (Residual Back Image) preflash as standard. ..... new 'EC' (Enhanced Cooling) versions of their cameras are due for launch this week. The G4-16000 will now have a -65°C below ambient maximum.....'.
Thinking of buying? Perhaps you may want to wait / ask for the latest version but in all probability the existing versions may see a fall in their price? N.B the G4 16000 uses a KAF 16803 not a KAI type.

Keith

[gregbradley]

There's a few sensors out there now that are a bit similar. The KAF16803, the KAI 11002 and the KAI 16070. The last 2 are full frame sensors around 36 x 24mm.

I think possibly the KAI16070 is a more modern natural upgrade to the venerable KAI 11002. At least the few images I have seen with it look very good. 16mp in a full frame with 52% QE and 7.4 micron pixels is a good fit for many scopes. Also file sizes will be more like 20mp.

The KAF 16803 has enormous well depth of around 100,000 electrons.
Its 36.4mm square so it places more demands on orthogonality of your system but its a great sensor. Oversampled on wider field scopes but usually that does not matter much.

Starlight Express has a H36 which is the KAI16070 for US$6050 and the H35 KAI 11002 for US$5150. They don't cool as hard but SX are known for their clean electronics and often no need for dark subtracts.

Also it can be coupled with an AO unit (as can the Moravian 16803).

I personally would prefer the higher cooling Moravian unit as high cooling can solve some potential problems and looks that little bit cleaner.
Its usually FLI's strong point.

Greg.

[dradford]

Hi Keith

There was a mention of enhanced cooling on the new Moravian software but no mention on their website of the new release. Where did you see the release information? I was close to ordering so will have to check this out.


Don

[100percent]

Don,
Sorry not to have replied earlier, maybe you have already made your camera purchase, this is my first return to 'ICE' in over a month. I was expecting an automated email to my inbox, got nowt so thought no interest.
The Moravian 16803 EC (Enhanced Cooling) is advertised at the Price Listings page http://shop.gxccd.com/?lang=409.
Click on the G4 16000 EC and it takes you to; -
http://shop.gxccd.com/?uid=836f4735f52c461eab047aa20b8e6b b5&lang=409&cat=10&subcat=0&action=product&page=1012

There is a G4 9000 EC version.
Availability is depended upon them sourcing the special Peltier Cooling modules for the ccds which I understand they only ordered a few to start with on this initial production run.

Keith

[gregbradley]

Seriously, they want $10K for a camera they list no specs for?!!

Who makes a decision on such a lack of information. Is it that its just so new they don't even know what the camera cools to?

Greg.

[Slawomir]

I have found some info here: http://www.gxccd.com/art?id=383&lang=409

EDIT: Just realised that the specs do not state the amount/degree of enhanced cooling, sorry.

[100percent]

Moravian G4 16000 EC (Enhanced Cooling) was available in Feb / March 2015, the additional information regarding this version is that it is supposed to cool down to -65 Deg below ambient, due to the larger Peltier module size it may be 3 inches deeper? Otherwise it will be the same spec as the G4 16000.
I have sent Moravian an email asking for more Spec info. Regarding Price well the comparison is with other cameras of similar ccd size, e.g FLI where you will be spending more.

Regards
Keith

[gregbradley]

That is powerful cooling, on par with the Apogee enhanced cooling body and a tad more than the FLI which I think is 55C.

Greg.

[100percent]

Guys,
At last got reply from Moravian regarding the G4 16000 EC (Enhanced Cooling) camera. Appears they are still doing final testing on the product, although they mention the Price on their website it is not yet ready to dispatch to customers, hence no 'official specification' published. Hopefully won't be too long as I am very interested in ordering one.

Keith

[astrobry]

I'minterested in theis camera as well (Moravian G4-16000EC). I gathered information from a distributor in my area. He told me that this camera is still under development and is in beta testing phase. They has added an extra stage to the TEC peltier cooling, implement more precise regulation of CCD cold chamber front window heating (implemented to eliminate fogging in wet conditions) and do some several tests... When the design is complete and working well, Moravian will publish this on the website and FB. They can't say how long it takes until the design and testphase is completed. All depends on delivery of new designed PCB and TEC Peltier and other things... if I may venture a guess personally I hope that this will be available sometime in the fall - may be faster, but I doubt it... We must wait with patience :)

[100percent]

Erik, Thanks for the extra detail, I wonder if the Price will hold?
Looks like there are several of us interested, hope they intend to order sufficient parts to make enough G4 ECs to meet potential demand.

[gregbradley]

Sounds like an interesting camera. It would be good for another competitor to bring out a high performing 16803 camera. QSI appear to have abandoned their 700 series for now.

Greg.

[100percent]

Guys, due to the Moravian delay in the production of the Enhanced Cooling versions of the G4 camera interest probably has suffered, I put off my own decision to purchase until all sorted out.
Camera is available and I attach a link to the UK pricing I've just received (heavily affected by impact on Exchange Rate due to recent EU Referrendum vote). N.B note the need to use the external filter wheel (50mm square filters).

http://astrograph.net/epages/www_astrograph_net.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/www_astrograph_net/Products/AG-MIG4-16000MEC

Keith

[billdan]

Looks like the -65°C version didn't work and instead they have gone from -45°C to -50°C, expecting the dark current to reduce by half. A bit of salesman hype I think.

[Slawomir]

From what I understand, QE of a CCD starts to decrease at lower temperatures - not sure about specific numerical values though. There must be a point where further lowering the temperature of a CCD becomes impractical and it starts causing more potential issues (condensation, increased power consumption, longevity etc) that outweigh benefits when astroimaging.

[RickS]

Hi Suavi,

Richard Crisp wrote a couple of articles showing the benefits of very deep cooling. Can't find them on his web site any more but I have backup copies :)

The only problem is that we can't afford cameras that can get to -75C in Brisbane summer temps.

Cheers,
Rick.

[Slawomir]

Yes, given the astronomical cost of such camera buying one for taking pretty astro pictures would certainly be his/her worst ever investment! :lol: