Dumbing down of language...

[Peter Ward]

I guess it's just me...but when I see the media spruiking simply bad english I get really annoyed.

Take Macca's...you can buy a hamburger with "rasher bacon".

But , there is no such thing a "Rasher" bacon. A rasher is a slice, hence you can have a "rasher of bacon" .

They could offer : American, Applewood, Canadian, Irish, Pancetta, Speck, Streaky, Country, Smoked, Cured and even non -pork Turkey Bacon on your burgers. Even rashers or combinations of rashers of any of these.

But rasher bacon? Nup.

Hardly Normals want me to "shop in store". I could shop in a store. Maybe even shop in stores. Perhaps they are being literal, and want us to shop in readiness. Readiness of what?? Should I be worried???!

Lastly Australian so called so-called-sports-journalists. They inform us players are likely to "podium". Podium is a noun. Sometimes nouns can also be verbs. Like fart. The mind boggles.

[Solitarian]

What's a Nup? I may have skipped that English lesson
:shrug:

[Camelopardalis]

Talking of proper English, what's "spruiking" :confused2: :P

[Peter Ward]

:lol: Guilty as charged. (but in my defense, my keyboard does seem to randomly re-map when I get excited)

"spruik" verb
1.
(intransitive) ( Austral, archaic, slang) to speak in public (used esp of a showman or salesman)

[MortonH]

I get more upset by your use of Hardly Normal's, when it should be Hardly Normal. ;)

[rat156]

Bloody hell Peter, it's defence, only Yanks call it defense! My Mac, bless its soul, has even underlined defense and wants to change it to defines.

Webster should have been shot at birth, he's the reason for all the -ize words, as well as why I now have to spell Sulfur without the ph, all tough some would argue that it's a recent form of the spelling anyway (the sulphur spelling).

It's a sign of old age, these things annoy us more and more. My current pet peeve it the designation of people (in this case always a man) who it batting for a cricket side as a "batter". Now, when I grew up, that's something that was done to fish before deep frying it. I believe the use of the term has arisen from the broadcasting of women's cricket, where it would be considered non-PC to refer to the people batting as batsmen, so the term was invented (of course it could easily be more Yank "culture" spillover). Either way I hate it with a passion. [/Immadashellandnotgoingtotakeitanymo re]

Cheers
Stuart

[creeksky]

This is a funny thread.
My nephew's only answer with "what ever" to most things.
One day, someone new will be given all the good advice into buying a telescope.
Then answer "whateva"
re: Macca's A hash brown looks like a potato patty to me.

[omegacrux]

Yes that annoys me how sports commentator's pronounce D'fence and Off'ence .

David

[MortonH]

No apostrophe required in commentators or nephews!!!

[hobbit]

languages change and evolve.

[Zaps]

How much of this dumbing down can be blamed on Australia's desperation to Americanize itself in all things and at all costs? You guys really ought to consider worshiping a god more intelligent than the USA.

;)

[rat156]

Agree on commentators (assuming the plural is meant in the sentence, not one commentator's use of language).

Nephew's is correct (showing the origination of the opinion, however the rest of the sentence is wrong in one way or another, I believe that the intent was to say "My Nephew answers only with "What ever" to most things".

Macca's (sic) is incorrect, as it is not an abbreviation (McD's), in which case it is a slang term and Maccas is acceptable. A hash brown still contains no hash though it may contain some brown.

Which just goes to show that even without "proper" English, one can make oneself understood, and that, indeed, language evolves. I recently had the pleasure of binge watching the HBO series Deadwood, the language used in that series is great, not at all what I expected, possibly not that real either. The cursing in the series was "updated" to modern standards as the curses that would have been used at the time were considered too passé, it worked, even with Mr Woo's only words of English.

Cheers
Stuart

[Peter Ward]

I also dislike "Debut" being pronounced as "Da-boo" ...

..I always thought it should was more like "De-bew"

Don't get me started on "What are youse doing?"

[MortonH]

True. But when those changes are brought about simply because of widespread misuse, it's very frustrating for those of us who know how to use language properly.

[raymo]

I have sometimes wondered how far back our love affair with American terminology goes. When I arrived in Australia in 1972 many
English words had long been hijacked. Examples: English first;
Jersey - Guernsey. Halfshaft - axle. paraffin - kero[sine].
silencer - muffler. estate car - station wagon. motorway - freeway.
raymo

[Peter Ward]

Indeed! Correct! I should stop digging at this point :lol:

[Zaps]

Australia was already very deliberately and self-consciously attempting to turn itself into "America Downunder" when I first visited a long time ago. It bemused me then and it still does now. Is there something so inherently wrong with traditional Australiana that it must be dumped in favor of Americana?

[MortonH]

The original sentence suggests that nephews is plural, i.e. "my nephews only answer with..." You've added an "s" to "answer".

Just shows how easy it is to change or obscure the meaning of a sentence with the incorrect use of an apostrophe, yet it's the most common mistake I see every day. Apostrophes are used incorrectly for plurals and not used to indicate the possessive, e.g. people will write:

"My nephew's all went to the shops" and will also write

"My nephews new car is red".

When and why did nearly everyone start using them the wrong way round?

[UniPol]

I have noticed, particularly on television, the word "important" pronounced as "impordant" mostly by young people, that really gets up my nose along with "Australia" pronounced as " " 'Stralya " by Australian tourists overseas.

[Peter Ward]

Agreed.

Even ex-PMs were not immune: hyper-bowl, Mr Rabbit, Taliband

[CJ]

Aren't these are two different places?

The lads played good. Grr.

[AndrewJ]

I just want to know why people from Canada aren't called Canadans.

Andrew

[cometcatcher]

Meh. :P

[AstralTraveller]

Then, of course, are the routine errors in scientific units, which are case-sensitive. So vehicle speeds should be in kmh^-1 though km/h is acceptable (especially when you can't do superscripts!) but KMH is wrong, wrong, wrong! Last time I looked that is kelvin mega Henry: a funny unit who's interpretation escapes me. I've also seen Kmh and KmH. Weights have been seen in KG ang Kg rather than kg. Grrrrrrr.


Dang! :lol:

[julianh72]

And two different breeds of cows!

My understanding is that Rugby League and Rugby Union players wear jerseys, but Aussie Rules players wear guernseys.

[N1]

Is that like saying Andromeda when you mean the Galaxy not the constellation? :P

[sheeny]

I don't know that Australia wants to be more like America (although in terms of litigiousness we are probably more so than America nowadays). Personally, I don't want Australia to be more like America, but I can see how this happens on a large scale subliminal level. American music, movies and advertising dominate popular media and even the news at times, and that serves to dilute and destroy all cultures where the American media is enjoyed.

When I was a kid, no one in Australia was called "pal" or "buddy" - that was reserved for American TV shows like the Flintstones, Gomer Pile, McHales Navy and Gilligan's Island. It's common here now, unfortunately. If I had an American mate, I'd be happy for him to call me pal or buddy, but not mate, and likewise I would call him mate and not pal or buddy. It's a responsibility of the individual to preserve their own cultural heritage, though I concede some cultural compromise may be desirable when in a foreign land, but certainly not in your own home land.

Cultures (and the associated languages) are very precious, and we probably won't recognise that until we are all part of the same homogenous grey mix. Australia had a huge number of native languages, and most of them are already gone. Very few indigenous languages are spoken here now. Its the same process happening I believe.

Every one of us, IMHO, has a responsibility to resist diluting their own culture in their own land, and use some respectful balance of old and new culture when in a land not of their origin. I applaud John Williamson for not singing with an American accent, for example.

Loss of cultural identity and language is truly sad to me. Once the unification of culture and language is complete the mystique of travel will be gone except for maybe the geographical sites.

I cringe at most Americanisms in Australia. I don't like it, and I don't like what the result will be, but it'll will only be stopped or slowed down by individuals resisting it.

Al.

[casstony]

I dislike ABC news presenters saying they'll "keep across" a story. The rest of us can jibber on but the national broadcaster should be setting a high standard.

[MortonH]

Haha. I've been looking for a car for the last two months and have been amazed at the way kilometres is abbreviated to kms, or worse, km's!

Whether it's a single kilometre or multiple, the abbreviation is km.

[UniPol]

I suppose some of us (Australians) have become "Americanised" (English spelling), "Americanized" (American spelling) to a degree Zaps, e.g. "favor" (American spelling), "favour" (English spelling), no offence (English spelling), offense (American spelling) intended.

[Zaps]

But that's the Australian accent. It's what makes Aussies unique in the world. Why try to sound like someone else, especially Americans?

[koputai]

"Thank you so much" is one phrase I really hate, it sounds so ingenuous. What happened to good old "Thank you very much"?

I've lately noticed that many people are saying 'secant' instead of 'second' for a small period of time. Very American teenage girl'ish.

Cheers,
Jason.

[Zaps]

My excuse is I've been an American for more than 70 years...

;)

[MortonH]

is that why the Australian Labor party mis-spelled its own name?

[Zaps]

It's a shame you're not the majority, instead of a tiny and rapidly diminishing minority!

Australia and Australians as a whole have been worshiping at the feet of an America they see as sophisticated and somehow better. It's bizarre. I hear young Aussies practising American accents with each other!

[MortonH]

I'm waiting to see an article on Commit Lovejoy. That's something you wouldn't want to Google at work!

[Zaps]

That's absurd, isn't it? The affectation makes them look utterly ridiculous. They aren't an American political organization. Even the Canadians retain the "u" in Labour!

[barx1963]

As I understand it, the "u" in many words (Labour, savour etc) was dropped in the spelling curriculum in schools back in the 1970s. I learnt the old way and still persist. I get computers constantly trying to correct me but am too stubborn to change.

Malcolm

[cfranks]

Sports commentators leave out the 'l' ie. Straya. ABC New reporters are now inviting us to "have a listen" and my least favourite is 'secatry' for secretary.

[UniPol]

Courtesy of : http://grammarist.com/spelling/labor-labour/


Labor vs. labour

"There is no difference in meaning between labor and labour. Labor is the preferred spelling in American English, and labour is preferred throughout the rest of the English-speaking world. One exception: In Australia, the American spelling is used in reference to the Australian Labor Party. In all other contexts, Australians use labour. This idiosyncrasy results from the influence of the American labor movement on the founders of the Australian Labor Party. The British Labour Party has the u.

Though labor is now the American spelling, the form is many centuries old. The Oxford English Dictionary lists examples from as long ago as the 1400s, predating the development of American English by several centuries. It remained the less common spelling, though, until the Americans made it their preferred form early in the 19th century.

The switch from -our spellings to -or spellings was one of the major early developments in American English. Many distinctively American (or North American, in some cases) spellings weren’t settled until the second half of the 19th century or even later. But labor, along with many other -or words, became the prevalent spelling in the U.S. around 1840. "

[LewisM]

A few annoy me.

1. Nucular: I am sure they mean nuclear, and it is seemingly so horribly difficult to pronounce properly.

2. Congradulations: apparently, congratulations is a difficult word too.

3. Noo: A goon's way to pronounce new.

4. Aks: perhaps they could ask how to pronounce ask?

5. Seperately: it's a separate way to spell the word

6. Flouride: all the pseudo-scientists must believe that the water board puts a flour derivative into our drinking water supply. Might make it a bit doughy. Fluoride, non-intelligentsia, fluoride.

And every other Americanised word that has crept into English - color, anything with a z instead of an s (let alone a ZEE instead of a ZED) and so on ad infinitum.

Not nearly as bad as Woolworths and Coles ALREADY putting Easter eggs out on sale... Christmas has just ended for pity's sake!!!

(I shall stand back and watch as the grammar experts rip this post apart too :P)

[multiweb]

Correct as in pepe le pew, although the correct pronunciation is the same as the vu in deja vu.

[strongmanmike]

In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti :prey:

:lol:

[xelasnave]

As one gets older the trap is to let things annoy you...
Remember things become good or bad upon our personal qualification.
Things are the way they is and there is little need to let them annoy you.
Change above all causes annoyance and fear....why let it do this.

[OICURMT]

http://www.ted.com/talks/john_mcwhorter_txtng_is_killing_lan guage_jk

[rat156]

Because there from Canadia, don't you listen to the PM????

Cheers
Stuart

[cometcatcher]

It's like this. English is a stupid language. Always was, always will be. It makes no sense to anybody. Even the English.

[RickS]

And their even more heinous crime of labeling checkouts "12 items or less" which, as we all know, should be "12 items or fewer."

[AndrewJ]

Gday Stu


Shouldn't that be "they're" ????



I try really hard not to.

Andrew

[rat156]

Yep, should be they're, of course. Just watched the TED video, don't care anymore...

Cheers
Stuart

[rat156]

Oh, and that should be "G'day"...

[GrahamL]

easily one of the funniest comments I've ever read here to a spellchecker
who wanted a poll about grammar :thumbsup: keep this one rollin please :)

[raymo]

We'll be back the other side of the break. At the top of the hour-- grrrrrr also. Where did watch on instead of look on come from?
raymo

[creeksky]

I add a couple more, to be heinous

[AndrewJ]

Gday Stu

Too true.
Ahh the implementation of didactic pedantry is such fun,
so i will wish you a good morrow and leave whilst i'm behind :-)

Andrew

[sharpiel]

If you refer to the original post I think you'll find this was a tongue in cheek poke at Harvey Norman the retail chain...

Also the original post as I now see it read as this "Hardly Normals want me to "shop in store". I could shop in a store. Maybe even shop in stores. Perhaps they are being literal, and want us to shop in readiness. Readiness of what?? Should I be worried???!"

Is the apostrophe in your quotatation at "Normal's" your own addition..? I don't see it now in the OP�� The original quote is correct without the apostrophe as the irreverent misuse of the name does note denote either a contraction of a word or an ownership, which the apostrophe would imply. So unless it's been edited out now that's Peter 1, Morton 0. Lol.

[MortonH]

Yes, I know. My point is that the chain is Harvey Norman, not Harvey Norman's. Just as there is no store called Myer's.

[sharpiel]

So the OP has been retrospectively edited to remove bad grammar...

That's hardly fair in a post complaining about others misusing English now is it?

Surely that's a reportable offence regardless how amusing the thread has become...!

[gregbradley]

Peter,

You may not know but Grammar has all but disappeared in schools and has for some time. Kids are supposed to "immerse" it in. Apparently they don't.

Also, looking up the meanings of words also is frowned upon and again the kids are expected magically to "immerse" it in. Also apparently they don't. Even the bright ones.

As a result, the average number of words the current educated person knows from the most recent generation is very low. So slang is often substituted for a wide vocabulary. A few words that are "flexible" mean many many things.

Apart from that slide there is also the fact that language does evolve and as long as communication is still occurring then its not really a problem as long as most people say - you's.

Greg.

[OICURMT]

I guess no one took the bait...

Interesting POV from a linguist on the evolution of what is the spoken versus written word... and what it means for society. He has some humorous slides about people who complain about the "demise of grammar and vocabulary" through time (as in all the way back to 63 A.D.)

I didn't comment on my original post, as I was trying to solicit a debate on the topic. I guess I failed... :sadeyes:

OIC!

[Peter Ward]

Some observations.

I see this discussion has generated considerable input (I was going to write "momentum", but realised therein lies another problem).

My punctuation was indeed and remains sadly lacking. Sorry. Again, while the intention was glib, perhaps I should have taken more care.

As some have commented, use of language changes (I'll leave the use of "evolution" to the biologists).

English can be a very precise tool for expressing a thought or concept concisely, with no ambiguity.

But all I really wanted to know was: what sort of bacon is McDonalds serving?

Why don't youse guys get it??? :D

[AndrewJ]

Maybe we dont go there for cheesy ( or any other ) comestibles ????

Andrew

[sn1987a]

TV is gooder then books.

[creeksky]

youse guys? .
McDonalds is probably serving 'Vincent smoked meats'- Motel Hell.
Maybe even from aliens how to book, called 'To Serve Man'-old twilight Zone episode.

[koputai]

"It takes all kinds of critters to make Farmer Johnson's Fritters" I think was the tag line. One of those memorable movies of my yoof.

Cheers,
Jason.

[Lee]

I can cope when someone uses North American spellings, I can cope with apostrophe abuse - so long as at least an good attempt at sentence structure is made.
We've all seen posts on forums (not so much here) that go for four or five lines without a comma, full stop or capital letter in sight.

Every forum page should have a link to http://dictionary.reference.com or similar. If you aren't sure of a spelling, look it up....

[LewisM]

After having had the distinct misfortune in partaking in a McDonald's "meal" recently with the children, I beg to ask - is it bacon at all???????

Soylent Green comes to mind...

[rustigsmed]

Yes, bring back the futhorc or at a minimum eth, thorn and wynn.

Is hēr ǣnig þe Englisce spricþ?

[Peter Ward]

I'll leave my final comments on this topic to weird Al.

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc

[AstralTraveller]

Gold. There are a few people to whom I shall show this video.

[Solitarian]

That's easy answered, they serve "rasher" bacon.

[LewisM]

I think it's an hidden meaning - perhaps they understand the
"bacon" will induce a rash...

Rasher bacon I believe sounds better than Rash Inducing Bacon.

[OICURMT]

Oxford Dictionary - Evolution (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/evolution)

See second definition... serendipity at work ... :D

[julianh72]

Or perhaps:

"Only the rasher individuals would dare to consume McDonald's bacon"

[beren]

:rofl: That was entertaining

This thread just reminds me how much I should get out the old English text books and do some revision. After fourteen years of my wife trying to teach me Italian I'm just glad I can get by with English. My pet hate though is parents using different variations of spelling for common names for their kids.

[deanm]

As a biologist, I can add that we use special genetics software to track the evolution, diversification and heritable changes over time in DNA sequences.

Exactly the same software has been used to track the evolution & 'relatedness' of words, languages and grammar styles.
Neither genes nor languages are static through time.
Dean

[Sconesbie]

My gripes are:

- They're, there and their used incorrectly.
- Could, would, should of instead of have.
- How are we? Instead of how are you?
- Are you right? This is asked quite often asked by staff in a store. My reply is "yes, I'm right, are you ok"?
- "It went off of his feet" instead of just simply "off his feet".
- They went shopping at Myers instead of Myer. It is not plural.
- They went shopping at the Kmart instead of just Kmart. We don't shop at the Target or the Woolworths unless we are identifying a particular location (ie the Woolworths in Launceston).

There are probably more that I will think of later on.

[Steffen]

I noticed with some dismay that Weird Al is an enemy of the Oxford Comma :P

That said, even language pedants can eventually get over themselves – people like, say, Stephen Fry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY

:lol:

Cheers
Steffen.

[Satchmo]

This thread is super .

[Kunama]

It seams rather few tile to expect a language two remain unchanged four ever.
Eye think off a language as a living thing and as such it will be modded bye those who youse it.

Werds like 'impordant' instead of important are butt the tip of the iceberg.
The ledder 'K' has replaced 'C' in advertising like 'Krispy Kreme'
Ford spell the word 'Cougar' with only 4 letters 'Kuga'

If it bothers you greatly, come and see me, I'll learn youse english.

[LewisM]

Whateva!

Sick thread.

[sheeny]

..kalifragilisticexpialidosius?

:P

Al.

[AndrewJ]

spellink err's
"..kalifragilisticexpialidosius?"
..califragilisticexpialidocious?

Andrew

[UniPol]

In common use is the expression "exact same" which to me is an irritation of the colon or should it be semi colon?.

[Hagar]

If the content of a sentence does not have the word LIKE in it 3 or more times our youth cannot understand it.

One media comment which bugs me. " I haven't seen that before in a long long time"

The list goes on.

[LewisM]

Condition statements make me smile:
1. Mint condition, apart from...
2. 100% original and matching except...

Another drummed/kicked into us at school was pronunciation of the letter H. We were forcibly told it was "Aych", NEVER, EVER "Haych". In fact we were told "Only Catholics say Haych" :)

The other pet peeve is the word "The". My daughter came home saying "tha". I corrected her, she told me her teacher says "tha" (teacher is 25 if lucky). I listened to the teacher, and sure enough, she pronounced it "tha". I made sure my girl says "the" (e is an e sound, not an a!)

[Screwdriverone]

Oh, don't get me started!

My wife gets very annoyed with me when I have my Grammar Police hat firmly placed on my head, especially during the ad breaks when the banks invite us to speak with a consultant "in branch"!!!!!! What's wrong with saying "visit your local branch to speak with a consultant"????? Are they charging advertisers by the word now?

Likewise, the appalling use of the word "vision" for a video clip on the news......."Let's roll the vision....." or "we have just received new vision on this breaking story".....

I have had to invest in a rubberised remote control after embedding the last three in the plasma screen, the wall and the TV cabinet.

I shudder to think what phonetic, half numerical, annotised, abbreviated and hieroglyphic gibberish we will be all having to tolerate in the coming years.

Chris

[sheeny]

:lol: Fair enough.

I'd like to say that I did that deliberately, but truth is I was taking my best guess as I went along, and you still knew what I was getting at!;) I guess spelling isn't as important afterall, even though bad spelling bugs the hell out of those of us what can!:lol:

Al.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Al

Normally i dont bother re minor spellink errers in online fora,
just trying to keep the spirit of the thread going :D

Andrew

Anyone else noticing how it takes ages to ensure you dont make spelling/grammar errors in you own posts, when knowingly commenting on the spelling/grammar usage in other posts??? :rofl:

[multiweb]

:p

[julianh72]

I assume the errors in the first part of your post were deliberately placed for humorous effect, but did you notice that you missed the apostrophe in "don't" in your last sentence?

(And "g'day" requires an apostrophe because it is an abbreviation.)

:shrug:

[AndrewJ]

I obviously didn't spend enough time on my reply. :cheers:

Andrew

[xelasnave]

Oh my gawd.

I do find that phrase is rather annoying.

[Camelopardalis]

Yeah, but Stephen Fry knows how to speak proper English like. Unlike most of the rest of the country :lol:

On a semi-serious note, the problem is that the younger (and less well educated) generations and their obsession with their sentence length and vocabulary purely because of their own lazy fingers are making the rest of us look stupid :P

The language can quite elegant and very precise, if you know how to use it...

[Camelopardalis]

Contraction :P

[Steffen]

Which of course means you're contractually required to provide an apostrophe there :D

Cheers
Steffen.

[julianh72]

Well, yes, technically, you're correct.

But in my copy of "Oxford Pocket Fowler's Modern English Usage", the complete entry for "contractions" reads as follows:

contractions see ABBREVIATIONS 2.

:P

Also, being a "contraction" does not make the use of an apostrophe mandatory.

Again, referring to Fowler's:

Contractions are a type of shortening in which letters from the middle of the word are omitted (Dr = doctor, St = saint) and are sometimes marked as omitted by use of an apostrophe (can't = cannot, we've = we have).
[My emphasis]
:P :P

[AndrewJ]

Gday All

I reckon gday ( sans apostrophe ) should be declared a new word based on national importance. Fixes all the problems in one hit.
Now on with the linguistic pedantry. :2thumbs:

Andrew

PS I heard a standard phrase that annoys the hell out of me on the news tonight, ( esp when uttered by politicians )
"The fact of the matter is...."
Why cant they just say, "My opinion on this is..."

[AndrewJ]

Gday Julian


True, but not in this case.
After snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in my earlier post, i went and looked up some more on this topic.
If a contraction is made up of multiple words, an apostrophe is required, so "G'day" does require one.
( But i'll never stoop to doing that, its too ingrained )

Andrew

[Solitarian]

It would help while searching on this site,

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/search.php?searchid=3263306
Dew Shield

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/search.php?searchid=3263310
Adapter

I was surprised adjustor didn't show up heavily as well.

[OICURMT]

Quite a lengthy thread now... so you may have missed the TED video link I provided. Slash I think education and the new world order of construtive language may not be entirely dependent...

[sheeny]

True! That is a real plus for correct spelling.

Al.

[hobbit]

As a Gen Y myself, I must point out how inaccurate this is. I do not speak like an early '90s valley girl.

[Peter Ward]

I know I'd said no more from me, but recent posts have jogged a memory of a quote from Vincent Sorrenti.

Vince is a nice and very funny guy, who was MC at a recent RFS fund raiser I attended in Sydney.

According to Vince, a little known fact is the word shark, is also a contraction of distinctly Australian origin.

Early Australian beach-goers, when presented with the up-close-and-personal sight of a big fish with multiple rows of sharp teeth, often uttered: sh**!!! *ark !!!!! all while briskly leaving the water.

[Hagar]

It's OK for use edumacated peoples.