Jupiter & Saturn December 5th 2015

[Quark]

Hi All,

Imaged Jupiter this morning in quite reasonable seeing for the 43 degree alt. Have good coverage in 742nm IR, R and RGB of the region preceding the GRS. Have several white ovals lined up in the SSTB above oval BA. The GRS is on the F limb in the final data set. The whole session covers an hour of rotation. Have also attached animations of IR, R & RGB data.

Started my Saturn season this morning capturing 742nm IR data at alts from 20 to 26 degrees. Have attached the final IR image, the data improved as Saturn rose, from resembling a waving flag through to being relatively stable. Have also attached an animation of all data. Of course the seeing was a problem at such a low alt but Saturn will rise quite rapidly to peak at 77 degrees by opposition for my observatory.



Regards
Trevor

[rustigsmed]

Always enjoy your images Trevor, you've inspired me to have a crack at tonight's double transit.

Cheers

Rusty

[Sebbie]

Nice captures Trevor, fantastic Saturn effort for the low altitude!

Rgds, Seb

[John Hothersall]

Love Saturn's rings nearly wide open. Jupiter apparition a little better, not a bad colour result.

John.

[strongmanmike]

Great shots Trevor

I see what look like diagonal cloud bands up near the small spot top right of disc, they look amazing, haven't seen such features before

As John says, seeing the rings so open again...is err?..actually showing my age :question: :doh:

Mike

[Quark]

Thanks very much Russel.



Thanks very much Seb, for the mid point of this data Saturn was at an alt of 25 degrees. We have much to look forward to with Saturn this apparition and it will continue to climb even higher through to 2018.



Thanks very much John, yep, great to see the rings open and great to get an even better look at the North Polar Hexagon. Note that 3 of the hexagons vertice's can be seen in this data. Jupiter has been a bit of a challenge, at least it is a couple of degrees higher this apparition as it begins to swing back to the South. The jet stream has been unusually active over my region this last 12 months so it was nice to have some relief from it on this morning.



Thanks very much Mike, there does seem to be a diagonal structure extending up from oval BA toward the "P" limb. The effect is seen in all channels and in all of my data from this session. I checked the PVOL data base for recent data at a similar Sys II longitude and found a very hi-res image taken by Ian Sharp, I believe from Spain, on January 4th.

Ian's image is orientated with North up. But iff you rotate my image to also orientate North up you can see the hi-res detail in Ians image in this region coming from oval BA. What is appearing in my data as a diagonal structure is resolved into discrete detail in Ian's image.
The difference between the two data sets is a reflection on the difference in altitude of Jupiter, nice and high in Spain and the difference in the quality of the seeing.

Reckon the ring opening relative to Earth, approaching its max really is quite significant. This is the first time in about 30 years we will get such a good look at the North Pole and the majesty of this side of the rings wide open. With the ever increasing quality of cameras for planetary imaging. just how good is this going to be.

To see the image of Ian Sharps I referred to above go to the PVOL link.
http://www.pvol.ehu.es/pvol/ (http://www.pvol.ehu.es/pvol/)
PVOL > Images > PVOL Jupiter.
Date 2015-01-04
Time 01-30
Author Ian Sharp and then click over on the file j2015-04-01_01-30_rgb_is.jpg

Regards
Trevor

[John K]

Nice going Trev - good to see you really getting into Jove and Saturn so early in these apparitions.

Agree on IR use for Jove - at low alt it really is the way to go!

[strongmanmike]

Put your two images side by side as you suggested with the same orientation and yep the Canali :) seem to have dissipated in Ian's image, as you say, that's seeing for you. His name is rather poignant too huh? :) Is that a standard C11 he is using? Wow SCT's can get a bad rap re image quality at times but ironically seem to produce many of the great planetary images, go figure :)

Mike

Mike

[Quark]

Mike, Ian is from the UK but I believe has been holidaying in Spain. With planetary imaging in particular, all other things being equal, the most critical aspect to success is the quality of the seeing, low alt and good seeing is preferable to high alt and rubbish seeing. Damain Peach, a year or so ago produced an amazing Saturn image at only 34 degrees alt. Of course, given good seeing the aperture does matter as it has a direct reationship to the frame rate that can be used. Bird posted a ripper Jupiter over on facebook yesterday with his latest 16". Also, regarding aperture, over the years I have seen many impressive results with the C-9.25 not sure but I think Damian cut his teeth in planetary imaging with a C-9.25 .



Thanks very much John, IR & low alt certainly seems to work, often when RGB is impossible. It can still produce data, with regard to Jupiter, that can be measured by the JUPOS measurer's and be of scientific value.

[strongmanmike]

Yes of course.

Damien seems to produce many of his miracles with closed tube SCT around a concrete pool from less than well known astronomical places :question: so do any amateurs image planetary from the great sub arc sec seeing pro sites like Mauna Kea, La Palma, Cerre Tollolo etc...?

Mike

[Quark]

Interesting question Mike,
When I went to Hawaii to observe with Keck II in 2008, Gary Kopff put me in contact with Doug Summers, a friend of his. Doug works at Keck HQ in Wiamea at 3,000 ft. Doug is also an amateur and has a large Obsession scope and apparently has observed with it at the summit of Mauna Kea, 14,000 ft. As it turned out I never got to meet Doug as during the day we were either at the summit or sleeping, trying to see some of the Big Island while in a sleep deprived state or in Keck II control room at Wiamea all night.

The visitors centre at the Onizuka Centre for International Astronomy is about halfway up Mauna Kea at about 7,000 ft and they do have some SCT's there for public viewing at night. When Bird last went to Hawaii I believe he assisted along with some of the IRTF crew at one of those sessions, of course Bird also got to go up to the IRTF.

Marc Delcroix, from time to time gets to use the 1 metre scope on Pic du Midi in France and has used that scope to image the planets, other than Marc I have not heard of other amateurs doing planetary imaging at altitude.

A few years ago when Bird visited Exmouth he obtained, what I gauged as the best Jupiter data obtained from Earth, Bird had classed the seeing as perfect. At the time there was much discussion on that point, especially when comparisons were made between Birds image and images from Pic du Midi.

On one of Birds visits out here to Broken Hill he brought with him the raw R, G & B data from Exmouth. At the time Paul Haese was also visiting. While it is hard to make comparisons of the quality of data based on fully processed images, running the raw data as video shows exactly what the seeing was like and hence the quality of the data rather than the abilty of the person processing the data.

The B channel is always the test of the quality of data as it is mostly the worst channel. Birds B channel, running as video, gave the impression of looking out the window of a space craft in orbit, it was rock solid extremely hi-res wall to wall detail. It was as if there was none of our atmosphere between the Earth and Jupiter.

It seems that high altitude is not as important as finding a site that presents the likelihood of stable air. The wind shear between layers of the atmosphere, when at a minimum, seems to be important. I had extended periods of stable air out here at Broken Hill through 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 & 2013. 2014 was a different kettle of fish when the jet stream was a consistent problem with a lot fewer opportunities to get hi-res data. I remain optimistic that 2015 will be a good year.

Regards
Trevor

[strongmanmike]

Looove to observe from a sub arc sec seeing site...can only imagine what the views would be like :eyepop:

Hmm? So... are you saying world's best planetary images can be created from less than perfect raw data and they can surpass in quality images created using essentially perfect data?

Mike

[Quark]

Yes Mike, I would love to have my observatory beamed to a spot adjacent to the Keck’s. Not too sure, physically, how my old body would cope with the extended time at altitude, suppose I could get in a good supply of oxygen bottles.
To the second part of your question. To start with I thought the following link on “The Lucky Imaging Technique” might be of interest. There are many papers on this subject available on the net.
http://rsaa.anu.edu.au/study/potential-projects/lucky-imaging-and-adaptive-optics-satellite-imaging (http://rsaa.anu.edu.au/study/potential-projects/lucky-imaging-and-adaptive-optics-satellite-imaging)

The point I would underline from this paper is contained in the first paragraph of the paper “lucky imaging can produce high quality images of celestial objects without an adaptive optic system.” I maintain that there are locations, not at altitude, where occasionally the atmospheric conditions allow for extremely hi-res RGB planetary imaging, using “The Lucky Imaging Technique”. Damian Peach has repeatedly produced stunning work from his trips to Barbados and Bird produced a knock your sox’s off Jupiter from Exmouth and I have not yet seen better. Now that’s a personal judgment.
We need to compare apples with apples. In the case of the somewhat controversial comparison of Birds most excellent Jupiter from Exmouth (Aug 30th 2010 17:49 UTC) with similar data around that time produced with the 1m scope at Pic du Midi. In that case both images were visible light RGB.
Clearly, the major Earth based telescopes spend very little time imaging the planets; obviously when doing so using way different equipment and techniques. Fortunately we are in the middle of a big wet in the outback at the moment so I have some time to kill. Have been working my way through the major observatories looking at planetary data. I have attached links to examples of their work from their galleries. Have not yet found RGB data as they tend to take full advantage of their aperture and use near to mid IR, methane etc, there are examples that have been colorized to some extent.
Starting with my all time favourite Saturn data from the ESO’s VLT website.
http://www.eso.org/public/images/eso1116a/ (http://www.eso.org/public/images/eso1116a/)

Jupiter & Saturn from Subaru.
http://subarutelescope.org/Pressrelease/1999/01/28c/JupiterSaturn_300.jpg (http://subarutelescope.org/Pressrelease/1999/01/28c/JupiterSaturn_300.jpg)
Jupiter from Keck. Also check out the 1998 Saturn from the same page.
http://www.keckobservatory.org/gallery#prettyPhoto[pp_gal]/57/ (http://www.keckobservatory.org/gallery#prettyPhoto[pp_gal]/57/)
There is a smorgasbord of images from NASA’s IRTF. Have not included the link as it takes up about half a page but I am sure you could google it as I did.

And finally The Gran Telescopio Canarias. Couldn’t find any planetary stuff but thought you would appreciate the deepsky work. This is now the largest optical scope on Earth at 10.4m.
http://www.gtc.iac.es/multimedia/imageGallery.php (http://www.gtc.iac.es/multimedia/imageGallery.php)
Moving on, have attached a link back to Birds original post on IIS, the first image he posted in this thread was from Aug 30th 2010 17:38.5 UTC. Later in this thread, page 3, he posted a better RGB from Aug 30th 2010 17:49 UTC along with the individual R, G & B channels.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65304&page=3 (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65304&page=3)
Due to the limitation of the file size I cannot post the Pic du Midi RGB images, however you can access them from PVOL.
http://www.pvol.ehu.es/pvol/index.jsp?action=iopw (http://www.pvol.ehu.es/pvol/index.jsp?action=iopw)
The RGB that I initially used as a comparison to Bird’s is the only RGB I could find from Pic du Midi for August 2010;
J2010-08-07_02-55_rgb_pic.jpg
To be fair I searched further and found a better Pic du Midi RGB from September 2010.
J2010-09-29_20-59_rgb_pic.jpg
The Pic du Midi RGB images really do make for an interesting comparison with Bird’s from Exmouth.
Regards
Trevor

[strongmanmike]

Great links Trevor thanks! Those two Pic du midi shots are pretty good but I think the processing is letting them down?

I have to agree with you regarding Birds Jupiter from Xmouth (http://www.acquerra.com.au/astro/gallery/jupiter/index.live) too, pulling it side by side with what I assume was at least "one of" Damians best from that apparition which also won the Astronomy photographer of the Year in 2011 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/damianpeach/5534585960/), there isn't much in it but yes Birds definitely shows more subtle detail and perhaps has even slightly better processing..? Friggin amazing images though huh? :eyepop: The thing that sets Damians image apart, as a work, is the framing including a very detailed Ganymeade and Io.

Thanks heaps for that, I too have rain on my hands at the moment :mad2:.. so quite an enjoyable hour or so flipping around looking at incedible images of planets, thanks :thumbsup:

Mike

[Paul Haese]

You're dedicated Trev. Saturn is looking nice now with the rings opening up more. Jupiter is still quite low but you got good detail. Looks like there was a bit of wind sheer going on. I will definitely get Saturn this year and I would like to come up and visit again.

[Quark]

Thanks Paul, the jet was certainly a problem through 2014, hoping to get back to more of what has mostly been the norm for up here, reasonable seeing, in 2015. Sounds like a plan, stay tuned.

[ags_]

Thank you Trevor for a very informative post, so much to learn so little time is apt in my case. I am constantly amazed at the quality of topics from all you dedicated people.
Regards, Phil

[astronobob]

Interesting reading :thumbsup: