help deciding

[creeksky]

After the disaster with the Aldi nat geo scope
I am heading toward what inertia8 has a "skywatcher heritage p130"
I"d love a Dobsonian 8" but a little beyond my budget $475 new and a 420k round trip to Brisbane along a potholed road then 12 ks of dirt road to my bush farm.(delivery cost works out more than petrol)
Any second hand 8"Dobs are in the $390+ range, though says it comes with $400 extras, but again a 550k drive west of Brisbane and I wouldnt know if its ok or not?

The SW heritage I can get brand new for near $245 delivered.
Also wondering if I should keep the aldi scope for its fittings 4mm and 2 x barlow plus moon filter to use with the heritage p130 (as extra lenses alone would be more than $50.
Any help appreciated.

[inertia8]

Pete, there's currently a gso 8" dob for sale in the forums, $325 in qld.

[acropolite]

After reading a few reviews on the SW Heritage 130, I think for the money it would be hard to beat.

[inertia8]

^ I'm very happy with mine, but it's my first scope so I've nothing to compare it to except 8 x 42 binoculars.

The view at high magnification is extremely shaky for me, I am expecting that once I sort out a stable mount and seat I should overcome most of the issues.

However, I do understand that it's stability will be nothing like a heavy dob etc.

[creeksky]

:thanx:

I had stability probs with the table and Aldi scope with a wooden table, and that was on a all concrete yard(at mums)at home its grass, small rocks, cow dung and brown snakes!
Plus inquisitve wallabies, possums and bandicoots.
At least in a chair I could sit cross legged buddha style.
With a tall 8 inch Dob I think I would have to stand? I'm 5'6.
I have only ever had (the Aldi scope) and a 1972 Tasco 40mm? Refractor.
Id love to be able to see jupiters bands and saturns rings better than the Tasco did and some DSOs would be good.Maybe even Andromeda,
Mars too with discernable polar bits.
I do have 300mtr high hills north and south either side-Im in a valley, so some objects will be hidden.
But there are no street, house lights for 25 ks!

[Marios]

How about a 6" DOB a little more aperture than the 130 but over double the focal length for superior magnification. They usually go for about 300 -3 50 new or 200 second hand on ebay...

[barx1963]

Pete
My advice for what it is worth, is to get an 8" dob. Nothing wrong with the 130 SW Heritage, but I have owned or used scopes of 130mm, 8" (2 of these to date!), 12" and 20" and looked through a lot of dobs of various sizes and personally the 8" dob is the best value for money out there.
The little 130mm dobs are OK, but it would have to go on a table, while an 8" can just sit on the ground. An adjustable height chair is helpful if you are my height (5'9") but a bit shorter is easier still.
You also get much more light gathering. I could not believe the difference when I went up to the 8" from my old 130mm!
If you can, try to save the extra $$$, it will be worth it!!

Malcolm

[Hoges]

The 8" dob in the IIS classifieds (I think you've pm'd the owner) would be ideal and cover all your bases. Excellent bang for the buck at $325. I went from a little table top red 4" Tasco to a 8" reflector as my first 'proper' scope and the difference was jaw dropping.

[inertia8]

I would concur with the 8" dob if you can save up for one.

For sitting, you can build a chair on the cheap called the denver chair or similar.
http://www.budgetastronomer.ca/index.php?page=observing-chair

Just been out using the SW Heritage 130 and I will really need to sort out the stability issue and a seating arrangement. I'm currently having to bend over a bit too much because the table is a little low but not so low as to allow me to sit down. Still, happy with my purchase but it's something you should consider.

Also consider that you will want to add to the eyepieces of any telescope you end up purchasing. The ones with the Aldi dob won't cut it I'm afraid but the best advise is to use the ones you get with the scope and see what objects take your fancy, this will help decide on which eyepieces to go for.

Good luck.

[creeksky]

Thanks for all the great advice, I like the SW heritage being compact, but moving the table and the aldi one around was a pain, and I only have camping portable tables at home which wobble.Yes I have PMed the owner in clasifieds here ,but an 8 hour drive return trip.800ks so factoring + petrol to cost s and it being s/h.
I also as yet dont understand colimination but as I kept thinking with the aldi scope"I need a light bucket"! A larger dob will be great with no light polution!

[barx1963]

I drove from Colac to Canberra and back a couple of years ago to buys a scope, I think about 1800kms round trip!!
Also don't get super hung up on collimation. Once you have done it a couple of times it is easy and makes more sense.

Cheers

Malcolm

[creeksky]

http://www.myastroshop.com.au/guides/sw252.asp

Is this really what a 10" Dob can see?
Will an 8" be similar only slighly smaller?
With all those details and colour?

[Hoges]

Visually,

No,
Yes,
No.

What the camera can record and what the eye sees are quite different - depending on the object. You will see the dust lane in Centaurus A through both scopes, but not quite that well. I don't think I've seen color visually in a scope in nebulas either - some report seeing a little color in, say, M42, but I haven't in either 8 or 10" newts or Schmidt Cass. I've owned or used both 8" and 10" scopes at one time or another and haven't noticed a large difference between them - but I've never put them side by side to test the difference either.

But visually, I've never seen Centaurus A look quite as good as that photo!

[barx1963]

No!!
These are images, usually taken with long exposures. As your eye cannot do long exposures, visual use is very different, much fainter and almost always monochrome as there is not enough light to activate the colour receptors in your eyes.
Have a look at some of Alex's and others sketches in the sketching thread (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=73111) to get a bit of an idea of what visual astronomy looks like.

Malcolm

[creeksky]

http://hubblesite.org/gallery/behind_the_pictures/meaning_of_color/QUOTE=barx1963;1144733]
No!!
These are images, usually taken with long exposures. As your eye cannot do long exposures, visual use is very different, much fainter and almost always monochrome as there is not enough light to activate the colour receptors in your eyes.
Have a look at some of Alex's and others sketches in the sketching thread (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=73111) to get a bit of an idea of what visual astronomy looks like.

Malcolm[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I think...feel a bit let down now, even just read the Hubble can't see colours!
The whole universe is just black and white? Mars only became red in 1977 and Jupiters red spot is maybe not red?
Another great let down....:(

[barx1963]

Thanks, I think...feel a bit let down now, even just read the Hubble can't see colours!
The whole universe is just black and white? Mars only became red in 1977 and Jupiters red spot is maybe not red?
Another great let down....:([/QUOTE]

Pete
The Hubble Space Telescope uses monochrome cameras, but they use filters to collect certain wavelengths of light and then combine these to create the colour images. In fact that is what is done many of the images that were on the page you linked to. Many amateur images are done with monochrome (eg non colour) cameras but using filters and then recombining in software.

And the universe is definitely not black and white, it is just that even in big scopes our eyes are not good enough to see it.
Mars has always been red, it's red led to it being named Ares by the ancient Greeks after their god of war, Mars is the roman equivalent. And the Red Spot is not strongly red through a scope but clearly red in images.

Don't let this discourage you, many stars display strong colours and often planetary nebs have a strong colour.

Malcolm

[Hoges]

Yep, double stars with contrasting colors are some of my favorite targets through the scope - they can be visually very stunning. The Jewel Box cluster is a very pretty sight. Also, I find globular clusters just as stunning through an 8 - 10" scope (Omega Centaurus and Tuc 47) as their photographs can be. Same with planets on a good night.

And while most galaxies are pale smudges through my scopes, just being able to see stuff millions of light years away and knowing what you're looking at is very satisfying.

[creeksky]

Feeling pretty shattered.
At home on a clear night I could swear with naked eye I can see some coloured stars orange, yellow, blue and maybe green too? But perhaps this is a trick of light like a rainbow.

There are also appears to be jagged swathes of pure black(no visible even faint stars) between what seems to be the spiral arms of our galaxy?
The night sky explodes with millions more stars than I ever saw growing up in a city!
Lying back on a reclining chair looking up it appears a like a huge star studded massive dome!
While I didn't expect a telescope to show hubble size coloured nebulae, I kinda hoped mini versions, and differing star colours, Mars to be red or a dark orange with whitish polar caps, Jupiter with bands of some colour maybe a faint red spot, neptune a blue dot and maybe with luck Andromeda with a flash of yellow at its core?

I understand now how limited our eyes are and I do understand how mind boggling far away the stars and DSOs are.
But they are all going to be like the monochrome moon? Faint hardly dicernable "fuzzies"
Or will with a faily decent scope my brain "imagine"and create colours?
Or atmophereic spectral refractions make them turn coloured or not at all?
I remember as a kid the wonder and joy of seeing jupiter a large pea sized round white ball and saturn white too with ears, at least (even with a toy Tasco refractor) seeing them with my own eyes was fantastic!
But even back in the 70s in Sydneys western burbs, light polution was bad.
Not until my first trip to Macksville in 1979 did I see the true night sky-just Wow!
Now I have it most every clear and moonless nights.
Just thought a scope would rekindle that "wonder".
-with colour and a bit more detail...:(:earth:

[Hoges]

Fear not!! Lots of color to be seen in the brighter objects like stars and planets. Jupiter and Saturn are always 'wow' in a scope on a good night and I get far more of a thrill looking at them through a scope than seeing them on a picture. On a really good night, when Mars is close, you can sometimes see the polar cap. And yes, Mars is definitely orange/red! Even Uranus has a greenish tint to it's tiny disk. The stars, even to the naked eye, definitely reveal their colors too.

Nebulas, galaxies and similar things with low surface brightness, I'm afraid will be mostly black and white - regardless of scope. Unless you get into a bit of astrophotography......

[madwayne]

Hi Pete

How far away is your nearest astronomy club or society? Before you spend your hard earned I suggest a visit to a club and talk to the members and look through their equipment. I couldn't think of a single one of us who wouldn't welcome anyone with an interest to look through their equipment.

If it's a bit of a hike could you visit family or friends while you are there to make the trip worth your effort and expense?

It's not about the colour, I'll image if I want colour. It's about being out under the skies and seeing what detail you can see.

If however you want colour, try observing carbon stars. In my opinion some of the prettiest things you will see in a telescope. My favourite so far is one near Mimosa in Crux, very deep red.

Hope my two bobs worth is of help to you and good luck on your journey.

Wayne

[creeksky]

Hi, thanks Wayne,
I believe Brisbane would be the closest 2 hr 45 mins drive, though going through the forums there could be some folks that meet at North Casino NSW (50 ks) from me.
At present I'm still stuck near Wyong nsw. The pony club meets would only be 20 or so ks.
But joined up here after their last meet, perhaps I could time another visit down here to coincide with their next meet up, but I'm bitten by the bug already, and by Jan 12 will have enough funds for a decent second hand or maybe new 8 "inch Dob.
Though maybe its best to get a heritage P130 , to start?

[Hoges]

For the difference of a few hundred bucks, I think the 8" Dob will give you the most bang for your buck. And the dob mount is the simplest mount to move around too. And, if you later decide you don't wan't to keep it, the 8" dob will probably be the easiest to sell. Or you could later get an EQ mount, put the 8" reflector on it and do some imaging....

But if you can get a look through some scopes in the meantime and chat with their owners, better still.

[knightrider]

...

[raymo]

NGC 3918 is bright green in almost any scope.
raymo

[creeksky]

Well I missed out on an 8 inch Dob, So perhaps best to go with a skywatcher 130p?
I haven't yet (apart from planets)even 10 inch, seen any colour in DSOs unless filmed with a camera and registax post process.
Seems the universe is all black and white and unless you have 12 inches or more it ain't gunna improve until we have 3D scopes with 1O80p and even then it will be false colour?
I guess some time in 2075 AD we will have colour scopes, 1 hundred years after colour TV!

[barx1963]

For VISUAL observing it is not a matter of technology, simply size, get a big enough scope and DSOs will have to exhibit colour, problem is you need a VERY big scope, even the Mt Wilson 60" in the USA shows little according to people who have used it for visual observing.As for "false colour", if you think about it all colour is false colour. there is no intrinsic difference between red light and blue light apart from the wavelength, it is our brains that calls it "red" or "blue".
I would still encourage you to save up for an 8". Having used both sizes when I first started (ie: 130mm versus 8") I know which one I would prefer!
If colour is an absolute must for you, then unfortunately you may have to go the video or imaging route. Start saving now!!

Cheers

Malcolm

[raymo]

Sorry to rain on your parade Pete, but colour TV came out in Australia
around 1975, but came out in the U.K. some nine years earlier, and in the U.S. some twenty years before that, around 1947, although in the case of the U.S. the colour was horrible, all saturated reds. Looks like we should have our colour scopes by 2047 then. Won't help me though, I'll be long
gone.
raymo

[creeksky]

1-so if I was to get a brand new 8' Dob would it need colminating?

2-Do they all come with a fan that needs to cool the mirror?

3-Do you have to use the fan or just let the scope sit out side for 30 mins ?

4-The finder scope looks awkward to use ie: looks like you have to bend your head sideways?

I sometimes get heavy dew is that a problem?
can a small person lift and carry it?

[barx1963]

Pete
1. Yes, but collimating is very simple, and once you have done it a couple of times it get easier. My 20" needs tweaking but usually no more than 1-2 minutes per night.

2. Usually yes.

3. Depends. If it has been sitting in a warm room and it is cold outside, the fan helps. Remember you are only trying to cool the mirror to the ambient air temperature, so if it is a warm night, not such an issue.
Having said that 8" mirrors cool fairly quickly, but solid tubes slow down the process so best to always use it.

4.Most 8" dobs (eg this one http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Dobsonian/Bintel-BT202-B-8--Dobsonian/72/productview.aspx ) have a right angle finder which is the most comfortable to use and gives a correct image. There are straight through finders but they are more uncomfortable and give a reversed image.

5. Dew can be a problem, but mostly for eyepieces. Solid tubes usually have no issues with the mirror, but in my 12" is sometimes had issues with the secondary. There are a range of anti dew solutions. Simplest is a 12v Hairdryer (easy to find on ebay) and a 12v battery and ciggy plug.

6. Easy to handle. It splits in 2 with the tube and base separating and the base has a carrying handle. remember you only have to move it twice a night! Once out and once in at the end.

Hope this all helps

Malcolm

[creeksky]

Thanks Barx1963 and others for all your help, you are right the bigger Dob is the better.
I have researched like mad, I even have had multiple
Dreams of shuffling and puttting EPs into perspex holders?

Last night I used up 1 GB of my 8GB monthly allowance (on wireless) on youtube comparing what I would see with an 8 inch, which would be fantastic,compared to a lower Dob.
But today I discovered all my lawn mowers are cactus.need a new one.(will need at least $300 to buy one.
So unless a 8" appears for sale around at most $300, I will have to go for a skywatcher 130p.
No good Skygazing with 1 foot high grass and snakes!
Probably a payback for selling my 20mm refractor in 1987, should have kept it.
I will just start from scratch, learn the sky and constelations, with the 5 inch, but I will save up for an 8 - 10 or even a 12 inch in 8 months time.
Thank y;)ou for all the good advice.

[Kunama]

This might help with your choices Pete and will give you a fairly realistic idea of what you will see with a particular scope
Just input the details of any scope into the relevant boxes, select an eyepiece type and focal length and the click on the 'view' option .... enjoy

http://www.ar-dec.net/vsa/

[barx1963]

Pete
Always glad to help. One of my philosophy's is that any scope is way better than none. If the 130 is all that you can get, go for it and learn to get the best out of it.

Cheers

Malcolm

[creeksky]

I found an 8" for $300
I can't see it until tomorrow its 3hr from me. fingers crossed:)
Please read my pm to you Barx1963 need your advice on it
its one year old used a handful of times,just in a driveway.

I know they have a fan,does the power to use that come with them usually, or do you need a separate power pack?
Do I have to use the fan? and will it need colimating?

[inertia8]

Pete,

Power will usually come from a little battery pack and is plugged into the scope, this can be replaced by a powerplug of the appropriate voltage and amperage (not much) and polarity. There will be a socket somewhere on the bottom of the scope and power is simply plugged in.

The fan is used to speed up the cooling of the mirror and tube and I guess you would run it for the first 30mins or so whilst the scope cools to the outside temp.

Collimating? After a 3hr drive home it may well do. See Astrobaby's guide for a good explanation.

[creeksky]

Thanks,I have read astrobaby's guide and went into brain lock...
don't know where I can get a film canister lid from maybe cordial lids will surfice?
I plan to take every cushion pillow and doona with me I can find:)

[creeksky]

Just spoke to the owner.
He has never collimated it,didn't know what that was? (neither did I 3 weeks ago) he was a raw beginner after going to a star party,decided to buy one to begin the hobby but has no time to- with a young family.

Literally used 4 times,to only look at Saturn (he could see the rings clearly)and our moon.

Its never been in car except from day one from store to home.

FAN. he didn't know it had one? doesn't think it does and had was never told or read in the manual that it needed batteries or power for a fan.
Don't all 8* inch dobs have fans?

Its never been knocked always had dust caps on after the little use.

[Monstar]

I have the Heritage 130 and its a great scope. If you don't like the table top it's easy to mount, I've had mine on an EQ5, an alt/az mount would be even better. It's easy to collimate because you don't have to move from the EP to adapt the primary.

I could go on all night about its advantages but the fact is I wished I'd gone for more aperture and got an 8".

[raymo]

Most budget level Dobs up to at least 10" don't have fans. Some larger ones don't.
raymo

[creeksky]

Ok thanks,
Am I going to see much with the included EPs,just realized EPs will be expensive and read its no good buying the cheaper ones.
It comes with
10mm and 25mm 1.25" Super Plossl Eyepiece
includes a 2" focuser with a 1.25" adapter, allowing the use of either eyepiece size.
Its a saxon 8 inch.

[inertia8]

Pete,

Having been a little silly and bought ep's before I got a scope, I would say start off with the included ones and find out where your interests lie when looking at different objects in the sky, then you will get an idea of what sore of zoom and field of view that you want. The 10mm will give you 120x and the 25 about 48x.

As you know, I'm no expert, but I have found the GSO Superview 15mm to be a great budget eyepiece and if my little dob had a 2" focuser I'd definitely consider the 30mm SV as well for pondering about the sky.

EP's don't have to be expensive, the Agena Astro Dual ED / BST Starguider ED and Celestron Xcel LX seem to get plaudits in the budget range and in a scope such as that Saxon, which is close to f6 focal ratio, you will find that it will not be too harsh on eyepieces. I've had to stop myself buying any more eyepieces as I am finding that I really do need > 15mm eye relief for comfortable viewing with my eyeglasses. Whilst I can take the glasses off and get a pretty good view with a bit of re-focussing, it is still noticeably crisper with the glasses on.

As I said, start with what it comes with and go from there. I don't regret the GSO SV 15mm, but for other EP purchases I'm going to wait and put a little bit of money aside so that I can make a more informed purchase (ie: after going to a star party or two and looking through other's EP's.)

[creeksky]

Thanks Inertia,I cannot sleep part excitement part worry and trepidation.
Thinking about needing more eyepieces a cheshire thingy, lasers, and canisters for collimination maybe allen keys or tiny screw drivers...

Then red lights (hope they are bright enough to see snakes) carrying the scope then the base 15 meters to a clearing to get the best of the valleys sky view..
guess I will soon find out the next clear night what I can see with a stock standard 8 inch Dob. If I am the lucky one to get it.

Whille I was thinking about getting a SH 130p I wondered what I could use as a stand that wont wobble?
I have an old webber bottom half on a tripod maybe something like that with wood on top would be ok for you?
thanks for your help.

[barx1963]

Pete
Sorry I din't reply to your PM, I have been laid up in bed for about 15 hours with gastro!

Firstly the fan issue. A fan is nice to have and in larger scopes is pretty much essential. Large SDM style scopes have multiple fans at the back and sides assisting with cooling, but in an 8" they become a non essential item. Neither 8" scopes i have used had fans and all worked just fine. If you find you get tube currents, a household fan sitting behind the mirror blowing air on the back of it will work fine, assuming the back of the scope is open of course.

With collimation, 35mm film can still be sourced relatively cheaply to make a collimation cap. Or the best bet is a cheshire. See:
http://www.myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-050A
or http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories/Collimation/Orion-Collimating-Eyepiece/418/productview.aspx
for a couple of alternatives. The process is really simple once you have done it. One important thing to bear in mind is that collimation is a game of diminishing returns, getting obsessive about perfect collimation really is a waste of time in a small scope. If it is collimated about 95% right, the results will be inistinguisable from a perfectly collimated scope.

Red lights, Super Cheap sell I believe inexpensive red light headlamps that run of a AA battery and are nice and dim, from memory they are about $12. No they will not be bright enough to see snakes, if worried about that use it on white light when carrying the scope parts out. Again, when starting out, don't get obsessive about dark adaption, you are looking at mostly bright objects to start, not mag 15 galaxies!!:D

Eyepieces. This comes with a 25mm and a 10mm I believe. If they are the same that came with my old Saxon scope, the 25mm is not bad and you will use it a lot! The 10mm basically use on planets (Jupiter and Saturn mainly) and thats about it. My advice is don't spend hard earned on EPs until you know what you want.
Inertia mentioned the GSO SuperView ep's. I have both the 15 and 30mm versions as lightweight options for my 8" travel dob and the 15 is a little ripper for a small scope. The 30 is also OK but does exhibit some pretty severe aberrations near the edge of the field, but for the $$$ not bad options. Your statement " its no good buying the cheaper ones" is not strictly correct, wise choosing and good research can save a considerable amount of money. Unfortunately money usually does buy quality, but there are some better budget options out there.

The other accessories I would look at a re a folding table, as light as possible so it is not a hassle carrying to the field and a chair. Oh and a good chart. I am not a fan of planetarium programs, tried a few of them and found paper charts always work. Don't have to worry about the device getting wet, running out of power, being dropped etc. Best options are
Least expensive:
http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories/Books--Charts-and-Software/Star-Chart-Laminated---CD-ROM/655/productview.aspx
Help you locate all the Messiers, many brighter DSOs, work out the constellations etc.
Middle range:
Sky Atlas 2000 http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories/Books--Charts-and-Software/Sky-Atlas-2000-0-Desk-Unlaminated/639/productview.aspx
There are several version ranging from $49 to $149 I think. Excellent charts, easy to read and well designed
Top Range
Uranometria 2000 http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories/Books--Charts-and-Software/Sky-Atlas-2000-0-Desk-Unlaminated/639/productview.aspx
Not really a beginners, and I found I needed a cheaper chart as well as these to help me get started, but excellent value.
A book worth considering to get you started is http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories/Books--Charts-and-Software/Deep-Sky-Companions--The-Messier-Objects/600/productview.aspx
It is not cheap, but you can shop around. All the objects are easy to see in an 8", almost all will be visible from where you are and and observing them is a great start to an astro journey.

Anyway.

Good luck with the scope
Cheers
Malcolm

[creeksky]

Thanks Malcolm (Hope you get well )and everyone for your help!
, I now have a baby 8" Saxon Hubble! It seems huge! 4 inches under my chin!

In seemingly excellent condition, including the plossl 25 mm -10 mm and a 2 x barlow!

Just got, back from the exhausting 450k round trip including getting lost! My GPS phone going into silence on the last leg and only 5 mins of power left to ring the seller 2x for help directions!
With hardly much sleep, leaving at 7am and home here at 4pm.

I now know what it must be like to have a child sleeping in the back seat, but it was safely cradled with every cushion pillow and doona I own...

Large cumulonimbus clouds have formed over the valley and Northern NSW?How strange?

Hmm but I'm going to bed, maybe I will catch Jupiter before sunrise?
(The mirror looked fine but the reflection has aged a bit!)
Will report soon on my first adventures in deep fuzzy space:rofl:
Cheers and thanks again.
Edit, just admiring the edifice before bed, it starts lightly raining with hail? But no storm?

[barx1963]

Well done Pete and congratulations.
I know the tendency to want to wrap scopes up, but as you go on you find they are pretty rugged!

Malcolm

[gaa_ian]

Your adventure has just begun Pete & now your scope has a story :-)
I have scopes from 4" to 10" have had up to 18" Dob, Go-To SCT & they all have their place. In the end the scope you can use easily is the one you will want. Your off to a great start, enjoy the journey !

[inertia8]

Congrats Pete, enjoy it!

No need to get caught up in buying stuff straight away, but when you do come back here for advice ;).

[creeksky]

Thanks Ian. I have made my first observatory site, Used my brush cutter-anyone for a Star Party?:)
Unfortunatley Venusian skys have enveloped the valley! You are all invited! Clear skies and no street lights for 24ks, if the weather is just cloudy,we can have outdoor movies with my projector.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2jewjyb.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/2reibt0.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/16kq0kg.jpg view to the East ,opening of the valley.
Solar system chart, tribute to Barx1963 (until I get real charts) and red solar torch needs cellophane -3 layers.

[GeeM]

Looks good Pete! I'll be right over :)

[creeksky]

Should the swivel base be very loose? Mines seem tight?
I have just today realized I'm going to have to move this every few seconds?
In a quick jerk action?
To keep the object in view.

I had a flashback to seeing people using DOBs (maybe in a movie?) and it looked manic. I guess it becomes automatic,I'm not sure I can do it..

Should I loosen the base?

[BigJohn]

I'm in a similar situation after doing intensive research the 12" DOB has greatest longevity and value for money its just bloody big..

[raymo]

Slacken off the turntable centre nut until it moves smoothly.
Dobs are best for low powers. A 2" 30 or 42mm Superview EP
will give great widish field views, and reduce the frequency of nudgings.
raymo

[creeksky]

There is one nut on top and one underneath, from what I can see I need 2 shifting spanners.
One to hold a nut while I turn the other -correct?

[creeksky]

So viewing Saturn and Jupiter in wide field views will show detail?

[raymo]

Yes, you will probably only need to slacken it off a tiny bit.
You will see the two cloud belts and some of the moons of Jupiter
at any magnification. [only as specks like stars at low powers]. At higher powers the moons become tiny discs. [ black when passing in front of the planet].You won't see detail on Saturn at low power, and not much at higher power. Saturn is fairly bland.
You should see the Cassini division in it's rings at moderate power.
Non go to Dobs are not ideal for planetary use, as high powers are normally used, and it is hard to keep a planet in view at high power.
raymo

[barx1963]

Loosening the base is something you do until you feel comfortable. If you loosen it too much it can swing around with any wind, so play around until it feels comfortable.

Manually moving a scope comes very easily after a while. The reversed image does take a little getting used to but after a while you just don't notice it any more. At high powers, you will find yourself moving the scope a bit. But if you think about it a standard 8" dob has a focal length of 1200mm. So a 10mm EP with a 50deg AFOV (apparent field) will give 1200/10 = 120x so 50deg/120 = 25' wide TFOV (true field) so an object moving through the sky at 15' per minute (which is how fast objects on the celestial equator move) will take 1.66 minutes to cross the field of the eyepiece. So you probably only give it a nudge every 20-30 seconds or so.
With a 25mm plossl, an object takes over 4 minutes to move across the field. I find the trick with high power is to work out which direction in the field the object is moving, and setup the view so the object moves through the centre of the field. That gives time for any vibrations in the scope to die down and for my eye to relax and start soaking in details.

Cheers

Malcolm

[creeksky]

Ok thanks, so If I am nudging it away or toward me, won't I have to move my seat and move away from the EP each time?
From the test set up I found my chair will not be high enough and I would be leaning slightly twisted to see into the EP,I was going to use a computer chair which if I put it on a pallett to gain height will probaly roll off.
Trying it down with straps, would be awkward if I decide to look in a new direction.
Guess I will have to experiment if the clouds ever go away!

[inertia8]

Pete,

Facing a similar conundrum myself and not wanting to immediately spend $180 on a Bintel Chair, I decided to build a Denver Chair.. I had some old formply and an 8m piece of 2x4 under the house so used that instead of buying new wood and also had some automotive fuel tubing.. I'm not going to use the stair tread as it's apparently not required.. we'll see.

It's cost about $35 in various materials, mainly bolts and nuts and screws, a decent 3in hinge and a 32mm x 3mm x1m aluminium strip.

Without having the materials at home it can get to about half the cost of a Bintel Chair not including your own labour so scrounge around is my advice! It's good fun building stuff anyway!

[Allan_L]

A cheap alternative for home use is a gas filled height adjustable stool.
About $35 from the "cheap" shops.
Seems to cover the height range for me, and no set up.
Not so good for travelling to remote sites (I have a Bintell chair for that).

[creeksky]

Good ideas Allan and Inertia,though I have never seen the "cheap chair"?
I guess have to look in furniture stores?
Building one looks like fun, but I don't understand how the chair slips up and down and stays in position,Is it like a car seat belt?
Searching the forums and Google someone found a guitar chair-here
http://www.swamp.net.au/guitar-stool.html?&_fpts=1421021024?gclid=CjwKEAiA_s2l BRCe1YPXxtSe-DcSJACCIh3LAsrxBpfUf0g6ZtvunCMHBhQU ZLJjOaBjWEQlpdfhGxoCdHLw_wcB

Though there seems no record of how practical it was?
I could build part of that Denver chair,but don't know how to bevel,and If I did make one it would probably slip to the ground with my mechanical skills:confused2:

[Allan_L]

By "cheap" shop I refer to the Reject Shop, or similar.
Don't go to a furniture shop they will charge 3 times the price for the same object.
Aldi sometimes has them also.
no need to jump off to adjust, just pull the lever and adjust in situ.

[creeksky]

Oh ok good my niece works at aldi and a nephew at the reject shop (I get a discount) but they are 800ks away.
I think I will try standing, and a computer chair for now.
Will probably be awe struck by what I see, and need to sit down, away from the Dob.,(for 10 seconds)
Then move it all around the sky, in all directions!
Have made a mobile phone mount above the finder scope, so I can use SkyEye to find things.
Should I make an Alt and Az dial for the base and side of the Dob?
Sorry Barx1963, but cannot see how I could use star charts back to front up side down and reversed yet?

[barx1963]

With my old 8" I only ever used it standing up. If my back complained I would pop on an old milk crate to get it a bit higher of the ground.
The Bintel chairs are excellent, but a bit exxy, a simple gas lift stool seems to be populr with some.

With the charts, from memory your scope has a straight through finder. This will reverse the image so it matches the image in the scope itself. If you swap it for a RACI (Right angle correct image) finder the image in the finder will match the charts. Opinions vary nut I have never found using Sky eye and other similar solutions to beat the speed and accuracy of star hopping, they simply are not accurate enough.

Cheers

Malcolm

[creeksky]

So before EPs best to get an RACI?

[barx1963]

I am not going to make a recommendation whether a straight through or RACI finder is best. Personally I like the RACI for comfort, but was able to use the straight through just as well. Try the one you have first and decide if you like it.

Malcolm

[kens]

Maybe I'm a bit old skool but I prefer a straight through finder. You can look through them with both eyes open so centreing on your target is a breeze after a bit of practice.

[creeksky]

Some blue sky starting to show through, Saturday the 17th seems it will be clear skies!
7 days after getting the scope.
The day will reach 38 Celsius, low over night of 21 Celsius.
Will wait until after sunset to take the Dob out, it will still be +30c, hope the mirror adjusts.

Also hope I will find Comet lovejoy, have studied the maps if an 8" Dob will see it?
Not sure what time to look yet.

[Sconesbie]

Good luck with your clear skies Pete. I'm envious.

The other night our sky in Launceston was crystal clear. Rubbing my hands together I thought "you beauty" and off I went lugging my dob outside. Got it out there early and went back inside and waited for it to get dark. Maps in one hand, a list of targets in the other, eyepiece box outside ready to go and "you gotta be kidding me"? It had clouded over and I could only see one or two stars. To say I was filthy is an understatement.

The sky doesn't look that great here today either and we are expecting rain for the next couple of days. I'll get out sooner or later. It won't beat me.

[creeksky]

Thanks, no polution, no street lights and town over 20ks away-but hills blocking North, South and some of the West.East will be the best.

Drove to Casino NSW and was envious of the flat farms, with no mointains., horizon to horizon.
Thought of parking along side the highway, but car lights and trucks would be distracting.
Hope Launie skies clear soon!

[raymo]

Look as soon as it gets dark, it's already high in the sky.
raymo

[gaa_ian]

Hi Pete
It has been great watching the evolution of your viewing experience. First light on a new scope is always great.
You will see the comet easy with the 8", here is a photo from last night. It was an easy target with my Kson 4" travel scope.
https://www.facebook.com/FNQAstronomers?ref=hl

[barx1963]

I've seen Lovejoy in a pair of 7x42 binos, so an 8" should be excellent.

Malcolm

[creeksky]

Thanks Ian and Malcolm,
You are all very keen and helpful and very dedicated to this hobby.
Its certainly a learning curve thanks for being patient, with me.

The stars were like diamonds, but no colour ones yet?
So many that it was hard to know where I was looking.

I tried adverting my vision but no DSOs popped out that may have been hidden?
But I probably wasn't near any :lol:
It was frustrating trying not to lose EP caps, putting reading glasses on and off to read star maps on tablet and mobile with sky eye and running around the Dob, back to the EP.
Then dodging the gathering clouds, fearing a rain shower and packing up...quickly after so short a time.
But I will keep trying, just incedible was the view up there and being a tiny bit closer!:D

[barx1963]

The vast majority of stars do not display strong colours. A lot of doubles do simply because their closeness emphasises the colour contrast. One obvious coloured star visible now is Betelguese in Orion, but you don't need a scope to see that colour.

With glasses, I find it much simpler to simply leave them on when observing unless the eyepiece demands it. Having said that, some faint objects are easier with them off so I have a "granny cord> so I can hang my glasses round my neck when observing glasses free. Another solution is keep them on while finding the target, then only take them of while observing it.

Malcolm

[creeksky]

Good idea, Malcolm,saves fumbling for them, I liked the EP view without reading glasses, maybe it made some weird effects, but cool none the less infact priceless!
Looks like sky clearing for tonight as well, I am blessed! Sending clear skies to Bris and gold coast!
Look out lovejoy!:P

[barx1963]

Hmm... reading glasses may be different, I am short sighted.

Good luck tonight!

Malcolm

[creeksky]

Thank you, I wish you good seeing, will pm you later with what I observed, maybe you can explain it?
:sadeyes: Maybe too much hibiclens sprayed in my eyes (surgical hand cleaner 1980s)

[creeksky]

OMG !Thank you- thank you IIS guys and girls! So much for helping me get an 8"Dob!
what a brilliant night! The 8 inch Dob has performed fantastic!
It was just great to sit out there, looking up with the brilliant stars arcing slowly over me.
I saw the comet lovejoy and 3 meteors burn up passed my FOV! 25mm

A satelite pass across too, I saw brilliant stars, and I think my first distant galaxy!! DSO!
NGC 266 something ,I couldn't read skyEye to confirm exactly ,it was like 2 u shaped clouds facing each other! In the south at 1130pm.
The warm air, the wind across the valley ,the chirping frogs miles away were all wonderfull.the milky way spanned across the valley above me, I even saw 2 clouds galaxy clouds separate to it in the south, then I found the jewelery box OMG !while swinging back toward north east
To top it all -Jupiter rose between a dent in the valley trees and I saw it too, , Magnificent!
The scope on a trolley with handy table worked great, I could stand and not bend!
Turn and work the scope in most directions.
Somehow ?my nieghbours have all decided to visit the local dealer at night now? So I had to shield my eyes from pasing cars and trail bikes!
But I scored big time !I have seen another galaxy and/ or at least a star cluster, no matter it has all been worth it, thank you for giving me this experience!
:eyepop:

[inertia8]

Glad you had a good night mate! I just spent the past two hours trawling with the SW130 and had a great time too, Jupiter wasn't bad tonight, could make out the bands on it and 4 moons to one side ;)

[barx1963]

Well done on having a good night.:thumbsup:
Don't think it could be NGC266 as that is a galaxy in Picses, so would be north. Description sounds vaguely like NGC3372 also known as the Eta Carina Nebula. There is a nice image of it recently posted here http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=1148539#post114853 9
The 2 galaxy clouds you saw sound like the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds (LMC and SMC for short). The LMC especially is a treasure trove of objects with NGC 2070 (the Tarantula Neb the obvious highlight). For some info on the clouds, have look at our very own Paddy's site here http://cloudsofmagellan.net.au/
NGC 4755 (the Jewell Box cluster) holds a special place in my heart is it was the very first NGC/IC object that I found all by myself and is the very first entry in my observing log from back in 2008! I still revisit it regularly.

Malcolm

[creeksky]

Thanks, who knows what I saw, it was like very faint circular shape,
Yes those white clouds must be the Magellanic clouds, maybe should have a look at them.

Lucky I had 2 good nights veiwing, a nieghbour has decided to have a rave party today/tonight over 200 cars have gone up the road and more will come and go tonight, ruining any viewing Grr:mad2:

[barx1963]

So the very faint circular shape? Where abouts was it? What constellation, nearby stars etc.

Malcolm

[creeksky]

25 degrees alt near Carina roughly, south east, was pointing at the
- dense arm of the milky way.Slowly scaning the FOV with 25 mm EP.
Moving toward k Vel.Going by looking at stellarium at about 11:30 pm from last night.

[madwayne]

Hey Pete

I've loved reading and following this thread and your progress. Great read and your excitement is there for all to see.

Next time you are out take a look at the SMC and pan around the outskirts of it. You'll come across 47 Tuc, NGC104, and NGC362. 47 Tuc is an amazing object and one you'll revisit time and again, a brilliant Globular Cluster and it's only second to Omega Centauri, NGC5139, in sheer brilliance.

Keep the updates coming, you never cease to brighten my day with your posts.

Wayne

[creeksky]

Here is a crude sketch from memory.
http://i61.tinypic.com/2dqmvc1.jpg

[creeksky]

Thank you Wayne for the kind encouragement, will take your advice, funny how I had never noticed the Mallengelic clouds before,really,(had heard of them but thought they were tiny
clusters)kept looking at them with naked eyes thinking"now why aren't those luminous clouds moving?:screwy:
Will look forward to 47 Tuc and the surrounding objects!:)

[barx1963]

Pete
Very nice sketch! I see what you mean about the 2 u shapes. Still think it is unlikely to be a galaxy, as galaxies are very hard to see close to the plane of the Milky Way.

Your comment about not being aware of the Magellanic Clouds is another reason why (IMHO) charts are such a good idea. You can use them to get a very clear sense of what is in large areas of sky and what size they are. Much harder to do with a smart phone.

Malcolm

[creeksky]

Thanks, I could do a much better sketch, that took 20 seconds!
Maybe it was rings of stars but seemed faint and like whispy cloud ,so I thought it a "faint fuzzy"!
Yes I agree, I am ordering the 18 charts laminated from Bintel.
For some reason it is hard to read the red night mode fonts using my mobile note 1 once dark adjusted.I only held it on the same angle as the scope and barely read it properly.
A tablet may have been better but was too swept up in it all to wreck my night vision, the passing cars didnt help, I completely covered my eyes with my hand.(last night)only 4 cars, which is extxremely rare.
So far today since 12pm
Now 500 cars have gone past! He 's never had a party this big before(usually 20 cars)
I'm not going to have all the road dust falling down into the dob.

I will take stellarium and learn some positions, Stars.
Disappointing, as it another brilliant clear night, but with "doof doof music".
Thought about cling rap over the opening but doubt that would work, and cars will be coming back and forth all night, may do some loud brushcuting at 7 am!

Tried with stellarium and crappy binos, every 5 mins more cars, 3-4 at a time, hopeless, as Malcolm says the stars will still be there.

[creeksky]

After some searching I think it was NGC 1300 I saw.
I was panning to the plane of the milky way and then back toward the Magellanic clouds.
This is how it looked but much smaller.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BCg7Ox9nmno/S1MpJdy9SRI/AAAAAAAAArY/FCTKKSxILBw/s1600/night%2B5%2B4.jpg
Woohoo!!

[barx1963]

Peter
Not sure is was NGC1300, if you were looking to the South, as at 11pm last night NGC1300 was of to the North West when I had a quick look at it.
Identifying celestial objects is a tricky business as there are literally thousands of objects easily visible with a small scope.

Malcolm

[creeksky]

Can I actually then see DSOs? With an 8 inch Dob?
Maybe I am being
too hopeful and it is beyond my capability with this equipment?I have only had 2 nights worth of observing, now it is rain.Probably for next four days.
All I can see is stars and they seem just as far away as ever, mere pinpoints?
Maybe more than naked eye, I don't want to have too high expectations,but I thought just maybe some nebulae and a couple of DSOs, was I wrong?:sadeyes:

[barx1963]

Absolutely you can see DSO's, what you saw was a DSO, it is simply a matter of which one, and the description of where you saw it makes it unlikely to be NGC1300 (unless I am misunderstanding your description)
Remember a DSO is a Deep Sky Object which simply means anything beyond the Solar System, so every star is a DSO along with every cluster, bright nebula, dark nebula, planetary nebula, galaxy, galaxy cluster, multiple star and anything else.
An 8" dob is capable of easily seeing thousands of objects and an experienced user will be able to detect probably tens of thousands.

Malcolm

[creeksky]

I have bit more cash to upgrade, was thinking about eyepieces, binoculars.
Red dot finder or even an argo navis ( not sure how much they are?) Or what they do, but you all seem to have one.
Must be early apenture fever onset, have been dreaming I aquired an old hardware shop ,while,doing a stock take,I discovered a dusty loft near the roof, there were about 10 refractors, 5 dobs in varying sizes and a big 12 inch dob laying flat! I told everyone and staff to leave the shop so I could retrieve it, in secret.
Oh dear...!:help:

[barx1963]

Pete
An Argo Navis is a Digital Setting Circle computer system. Essentially what it does is track the movement of your scope as you manually push is around so you can locate objects. It is not a GO TO system as you still have to move the scope but it will place objects in the eyepiece quite accurately.
They are Aussie made and are the leading brand of DSC available.
A complete setup with mounting hardware is probably going to set you back about $800 or so. The website that Gary (who owns the company) runs for it is here http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au/index.html


Malcolm

[creeksky]

Thanks Malcolm, I will wait, maybe get a couple of EP's save up for a bigger scope one day. Maybe some decent binoculars , will get star charts and maybe a red dot finder.
Will stick to the basics until I learn, I am loving what I see so far, the adventure is great,but it was a great dream finding a free 12 inch dob:lol:

[Sconesbie]

Ha Ha Ha. Great dream Pete.

I'm hoping to get an Argo Navis later this year. The Treasurer and President says I'm not allowed to buy it any earlier as we're going away in April.

At the moment I'm stuck with finding things the old fashioned way but it's making me learn quickly.

[creeksky]

Hoorah !
first confirmed DSO! Tarantula Nebula.
Panning in the south, even with half an annoying moon(it's like light polution:( spotted a faint spidery shaped glow, checked with stelarium it was Tarantula!
2x Barlow with either 25mm or 10mm= yuck, so just used 25 mm and 10 mm.
Was great, 159, 800 light years away, incredible!:thumbsup:
I walked into a spider web carrying the Dob out, big spider too, must have blessed me!

[inertia8]

I know the feeling Pete, i'm convincing myself not to buy anything else until the loan period is over... I controlled my spending, sort of, and started off with a couple of small book/torch purchases after being a bit frustrated with the online charts (no idea why as now when I look at them they are ok).

A Rigel Systems Skylite (2xRed/2xWhite LED variable brightness), great low power variati
A Telrad (to make shipping of the Skylite seem more reasonable!)
Tirion's Bright Start Atlas 2000 (too complex at first, saving for later)
A Large Chandler Planisphere
Sky Safari Pro (I had google play credit from kitkat competition..)
Membership to ASV (loan scope and other like minded people to chat with).

With the above I was happy with my Vortex Diamonback 8x42 (bak4 prism version) on a cheap but decent ebay ballhead tripod.

I've since picked up the Sky & Telescope Pocket Sky Atlas and Turn Left at Orion, which has been a great read so far, though I've yet to use it for observing.

I would recommend picking up a copy of Astronomoy 2015 Australia, it will cost you $25 posted from Andrews or Bintel.

For eyepieces, I'm happy with the superviews from Bintel and am tempted to try the starguider ed ep's from agena/bst, but I will be setting aside funds for several premium eyepieces in the future after I purchase the scope itself.

[creeksky]

It's all a fun learning experience,I am really glad I picked up a telescope again and a much bigger one than I had as an early teen.
I just pan the sky and see what I may stumble upon, once I find something I refer to Stelarium after changing EPs to get better views.
A tablet is much bigger than a mobile phone, but when booting it up its brighter than when stellarium night mode kicks in.Still find it hard to read the red writing.
But it helped identify what I was seeing.
I am lucky to live a low light zone, but never thought the moon would be a problem?
Least I could see any snakes around me!
I also find it a great meditation, just me and the whole universe above....and a tool to look a bit closer.;)

[inertia8]

The moon's a problem yes, you can always check back on the left border of this site as to the state of the moon ;).

Have you thought about a layer or two of red cellophane over the tablet screen? Just wrap around the screen and tuck it in?

That said, I'm not sure it would allow you to use the touch screen, something someone else might chime in on or maybe there's a red screen protector available?

[kens]

Change the color balance on your display. Turn down the blue and green.

[inertia8]

I use a program called Twilight on android, which is set to automatically remove blue/green colours after 7:30pm and re-introduce them at 6:30am.

A great little app but it keeps crashing from time to time.. not the best thing to be blasted with high brightness blue light when checking a forum out just before putting the phone on the bedside table I can tell you!

[creeksky]

Well with massive rain and no observing have finished me Denver chair.
Has foot rest and head rest, not bad for someone who failed wood work!
Cost $5 for screws and $12 for varnish yet to do.

[JimsShed]

What a great wet-weather project, and looks impressive. Symbols are a nice touch :thumbsup:
I'm hoping to head down to Kyogle soon and take in some night skies as I have family who live at Green Pigeon.