German Students Aim to Put Cyanobacteria on Mars to Generate Oxygen

[Hans Tucker]

The question is not can we but should we.

http://www.science20.com/astro_watch/blog/german_students_aim_to_put_cyanobac teria_on_mars_to_generate_oxygen-151749

[KenGee]

The 1967 outer space treaty forbids this in my view, read article 7 Section E.

http://www.unoosa.org/pdf/publications/STSPACE11E.pdf

[JB80]

Looks like it could be possible even under the treaty...

" to avoid their harmful contamination and also adverse changes in the environment of the Earth resulting from the introduction of extraterrestrial matter and, where necessary, shall adopt appropriate measures for this purpose."

...which I assume by destroying the sample at the end of the mission could be considered an appropriate measure. No doubt to be argued about but I wouldn't have a problem with it.

And yes, yes we should.

[el_draco]

Joe brought Cane Toads to QLD to eat beetles. Any "locals" could be wiped out... I believe the term for that is genocide.

If Mars is proven lifeless, maybe its a future option but I don't fancy anyone's chances of proving the planet is dead anytime soon.

[pmrid]

The concept of genocide cannot have any meaning in the absence of sentient life forms.

But I find it more than a little amusing that well before we even landed a probe on Mars, and well before we knew one way or the other about life-forms on Mars or the other celestial bodies, we were claiming them for earth and earthlings. The treaty does not contain any provision for the possibility of encountering sentience there or anywhere.


Peter

[LewisM]

I assume you meant Joh, as in Joh Bjelke-Petersen. He didn't introduce cane toads - they were introduced in 1935, and Joh was still working the family property at that time, so we cannot blame him, but rather the misguided- but well meaning - boffins at the Bureau of Sugar Experiment Stations.

Maybe German students can be considered well-intentioned but misguided also...



I doubt Mars is lifeless, so introducing ANY form of life could be considered invasive and harmful. Bacteria is extremelly hardy, many surviving extremes and still being viable thousands of years later. I am fairly certain bacterium will be found on Mars (they will need to dig deeper than they presently do).

What remains next is do we have the RIGHT to do ANYTHING to Mars?

[astroron]

I think we have already introduced bugs to Mars,transported there by the dozen or more space craft landed there over the last 30 years or more.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[tonybarry]

Hi All,

A good topic to discuss. I saw "Interstellar" last week with a few mates from WSAAG, and the topic was relevant.

I've considered the Greenie position fairly solidly, and in its milder forms it has merit. In its more extreme forms, it amounts to suicide (anything a human can do will be bad, so the best thing we can do is not do anything - which equals "Kill yourself and save Nature").

I am pretty solidly set on the idea that we should not die with our planet; that we have acquired the ability to propagate and our future is off-planet.

Terraforming Mars is a good idea - if we can do it reasonably well. I am not sure that it can be done well, because there are a few items lacking there (e.g. water content is minimal, oxygen pressure is really low, gravity is too weak to hold all the atmosphere we'd need).

But engineering a way past these obstacles is a very worthwhile task. We are due for another global extinction event (they apparently occur every 65 million years or so), and having some way to continue past that is a very good idea.

Regards,
Tony Barry

[N1]

Humankind as a whole doesn't give a '^%$#@ about what's happening to this planet but worries about finding somewhere else to live. I guess it's one of the great ironies of the anthropocene age.

[astroron]

I don't agree with you Tony,
If there were a higher form than Humans, they would definitely get the Bagon out and exterminate the most destructive creature that ever walked this planet, Us.
To want to take our destructive ways to other parts of the Solar System, or even further is in my opinion is plain vandalism.
I see mass extinctions as a form of rejuvenation and by golly this planet and the major life form that inhabits it surely needs rejuvenating, even if that means going the way of the Dinosaurs.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[astroron]

Billions of dollars are spent trying to get to an almost sterile planet and if that German or other ideas get to fruition terraform it is to me a complete waste of money when we have a perfectly good planet here where we are all on that needs some good management.:screwy:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Xtjohn]

Unfortunately it appears mankind is on a dead end branch of evolution.
We would have to undergo major changes to every aspect of our beings to become anything like sustainable, on Earth or anywhere else for that matter. Personally, I can't see how that could happen.

[pmrid]

It seems to me that until we are able to say why Mars lost it's atmosphere in the first place, there isn't much point trying to give it another one.

Peter

[Zaps]

Mars lacks the mass (and therefore gravity) to permanently retain a gaseous atmosphere.

[hobbit]

Wouldn't that have prevented it from developing an atmosphere in the first place?

[Ric]

It's really quite easy, read up on Permaculture. :thumbsup:

The hard part is to get everyone to agree to go down that path.

Cheers :)

[N1]

I understand the presence of an atmosphere depends on its composition of and its rate of replenishment. Any atmosphere is subject to erosion by cosmic radiation and while gravity obviously essential for one to exist, it won't ensure a sustainable atmosphere just by itself. Likewise, less gravity than Earth doesn't necessarily mean no atmosphere. Consider Titan.

[Zaps]

Insufficient mass results in the loss of atmospheric gases and can only be offset by relatively constant replenishment.

[el_draco]

I dont see it as a "greenie" issue. Basic ethics should cover it quite well. Most "Greenies" are not against "development", they are against the wholesale destruction of the one planet we know can sustain us, and the multitude of other species that inhabit this rock. Personally, I don't have a problem with that. We are the only species here that seems intent on destroying itself in the name of self interest and greed. :shrug:

Before we really go off-world, and I sincerely hope we make it that far, we ought to get over the idea that we can do whatever we want with impunity; its a complete fallacy anyhow; our own history demonstrates it plainly. :screwy:

I personally take great comfort in knowing that even if we reaped havoc beyond earth for a hundred million years, it wouldn't even register on the scale of the Milky way, let alone the rest of the universe. ;)

[Xtjohn]

Not quite so easy as that Ric, sustainability would mean totally ending the kind of life mankind has now. No civilisation would be possible, no industry of any kind. Artificial and ecosystem-degrading means of producing food has resulted in a population explosion. At present population levels, If the world were to go totally organic for food production tomorrow, you could expect two out of every three of your loved ones and friends to die of starvation. There is no sustainable way of maintaining mankind as we are.
Living as hunter gatherers and remaining at a very low population is just not the kind of animal we are!
And you have hit the nail right on the head -(the hard part is to get everyone to agree to go down that path)-. Who amongst us is willing to go back to living in trees while watching most of the other people around them starve to death?
The changes required to render Homo sapiens sustainable are not only concerned with our physical existence and environment-destroying needs (wants) but also what is going on between our ears! We are driven to push our boundaries beyond our environments breaking point and therefore simply not the kind of animal that the planet can sustain.

[LewisM]

The theory of a comet or large meteor intervention with Mars remains a serious contender according to some cosmologists. The shapes of both moons of Mars could suggest either gravitational entrapment (possibly after the cataclysmic event) or even as molten ejecta from the Martian impact - there seems to be sufficiently large impact sites on Mars to suggest this possibility.

[Ric]

Hi John

Permaculture has nothing to do with living in tree's or going back to being a Hunter Gatherer.

It's simply an alternative way of living with nature.

People do not change their lifestyles just their attitude the the Earth.
Instead of all take, put a bit back. Anybody can do Permaculture.

As Bill Mollison put it "If you have a snail problem, then you have a duck deficiency"

Cheers

[Xtjohn]

G'day Ric, I agree permaculture is a great thing to do (I am a horticulturist) but it will not have any measurable effect on human sustainability or long term outlook.
Being hunter gatherers in very small family groups is the only format in which humanity is truly sustainable.

[skysurfer]

Well, as long as we are unable to keep our own Earth terraformed we cannot terraform other planets.
We are pushing up CO2 levels in atmosphere because we are too lazy to get a considerable renewable amount of energy from nature (solar, geothermal). It is like using a battery while the mains is accessible. And we are dumping plastics into the oceans (the floating plastic island SW of Hawaii) as we are too lazy to use degradable packaging instead of the plastic blisters. We are patenting medicine and genetc modification which has an adverse effect on sustainable agriculture. Read the Food issues of National Geographic Magazine of the last months.

Actually, we are de-terraforming our Earth because there is only one thing what rules in our world : $$$$$$ for the big corporations !

The greatest threat to Mankind is not asteroid impacts, but Mankind ourselves.

[tonybarry]

Hi All,

I have read a number of respondents to my post.

I appreciate this is an issue which raises emotions and so I hope that my comments are seen as "in the direction of life" rather than any personal replies. Each person here is free to hold whatever views they wish, and I have no say in what you may or may not believe, or act out based on that belief.

My original theme was that a certain philosophy ends in the conviction that humans are a blight on the planet, and if there were a higher power, its task would be to exterminate us. If the higher power does not exist or is negligent in its duty, it would be our duty to the planet to eliminate the most destructive creature that ever walked on earth (i.e. us humans).

Perhaps those who espouse this view might wish to show the way, by removing themselves ?

When I write this, it is patently absurd. No-one here wishes to commit suicide as an act of reparation to planet earth. A mountain of human corpses will not solve everything - it just takes away the chance to solve anything.

We hold the solution to our problems; just as we have made many of the problems we now face, so we can solve them.

I stand with Robert Heinlein on this one, in his short essay, "This I believe". I am copying it below in the hope that we might see the hairless ape as the best thing that has come out of evolution, not the worst. I am proud to be human, and I am also responsible for what I do with my humanity.

Regards,
Tony Barry

---------------
This I Believe by Robert A. Heinlein
"I am not going to talk about religious beliefs but about matters so obvious that it has gone out of style to mention them. I believe in my neighbors. I know their faults, and I know that their virtues far outweigh their faults.
"Take Father Michael down our road a piece. I'm not of his creed, but I know that goodness and charity and lovingkindness shine in his daily actions. I believe in Father Mike. If I'm in trouble, I'll go to him."
"My next-door neighbor is a veterinary doctor. Doc will get out of bed after a hard day to help a stray cat. No fee--no prospect of a fee--I believe in Doc.
"I believe in my townspeople. You can know on any door in our town saying, 'I'm hungry,' and you will be fed. Our town is no exception. I've found the same ready charity everywhere. But for the one who says, 'To heck with you - I got mine,' there are a hundred, a thousand who will say, "Sure, pal, sit down."
"I know that despite all warnings against hitchhikers I can step up to the highway, thumb for a ride and in a few minutes a car or a truck will stop and someone will say, 'Climb in Mac - how far you going?'
"I believe in my fellow citizens. Our headlines are splashed with crime yet for every criminal there are 10,000 honest, decent, kindly men. If it were not so, no child would live to grow up. Business could not go on from day to day. Decency is not news. It is buried in the obituaries, but is a force stronger than crime.
"I believe in the patient gallentry of nurses and the tedious sacrifices of teachers. I believe in the unseen and unending fight against desperate odds that goes on quietly in almost every home in the land.
"I believe in the honest craft of workmen. Take a look around
you. There never were enough bosses to check up on all that work. From Independence Hall to the Grand Coulee Dam, these things were built level and square by craftsmen who were honest in their
bones.
"I believe that almost all politicians are honest. . .there are hundreds of politicians, low paid or not paid at all, doing their level best without thanks or glory to make our system work. If this were not true we would never have gotten past the 13 colonies.
"I believe in Rodger Young. You and I are free today because of endless unnamed heroes from Valley Forge to the Yalu River. I believe in -- I am proud to belong to -- the United States. Despite shortcomings from lynchings to bad faith in high places, our nation has had the most decent and kindly internal practices and foreign policies to be found anywhere in history.
"And finally, I believe in my whole race. Yellow, white, black, red, brown. In the honesty, courage, intelligence, durability, and goodness of the overwhelming majority of my brothers and sisters everywhere on this planet. I am proud to be a human being. I believe that we have come this far by the skin of our teeth. That we always make it just by the skin of our teeth, but that we will always make it. Survive. Endure. I believe that this hairless embryo with the aching, oversize brain case and the opposable thumb, this animal barely up from the apes will endure. Will endure longer than his home planet -- will spread out to the stars and beyond, carrying with him his honesty and his insatiable curiosity, his unlimited courage and his noble essential decency.
"This I believe with all my heart."
Robert A. Heinlein wrote this item in 1952. His wife, Virginia Heinlein, chose to read it when she accepted NASA's Distinguished Public Service Medal on October 6, 1988, on the Grand Master's behalf (it was a posthumous award).
Mrs. Heinlein received a standing ovation.

[Xtjohn]

Hi Tony, I think you may be referring to my posts. If so you have misinterpreted the point. No one is calling for genocide or the migration back to the trees. The post made it clear that this would and should not happen. We cannot go back. The point is we have made ourselves un- sustainable by artificial means. If you are atheistic you will understand we do not have a divine right to be here. The Hollywood version of life where it all turns out all right in the end does not hold true in real life. Evolution throws up many blind alleys and we are one of them. Just an animal that has gotten too big for his boots! Well over ninety percent of the lifeforms that have ever existed have become extinct. Sooner or later we all go the way of the Dodo. Some say "mankind has a higher intelligence and can move beyond the extinction cycle". I say "look around and tell me how that's working out for us". We have un-naturally accelerated the extinction of ourselves and many other species by using our "higher intelligence".
Believing in your fellow man is all well and good but will do nothing to halt the self inflicted downward spiral we find ourselves in and there is nothing on the horizon that is going to change this. Even our most urgent & biggest perceived threat, global warming is not being addressed. The leaders in the field say that even if all nations can agree on the proposed greenhouse emission cuts, they are not nearly enough to make any appreciable difference!
There are great things to discover and enjoy during our life on earth. Revel in the wonders of being alive and take joy in life its self. Love your family, have fun with your friends, partake in lively discussions on internet forums to exchange points of view with people :) , in short, live life to the full but realise that we, along with every other species, are finite.

[xelasnave]

But we do have a divine right to be here, we have a divine right to rule over everything...it is so written. And that is the problem so many humans believe what is written...
Unfortunately non believers are few and the rest are confident in a divine plan...I suspect that may be a problem that will not go away.
All nations can boast more believers than not who are convinced their GOD has a plan and they are the chosen ones.

[el_draco]

I disagree, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that we can live sustainably on this planet. We did so quite well until the start of the industrial revolution and that only really started to have an impact a couple of hundred years ago.

What's lacking is political and individual will on a significantly large scale.... but that's changing, finally. People are by-passing politicians and going it alone. The major issue is population and we ignore that at our peril but either way, it'll come down substantially in the next few generations, probably decades, in many areas. We are now a technological society and that offers a huge advantage long term, just have to survive the era of greed and ego and starting putting our house in order again...

[xelasnave]

So what's the Popes view on population control

[el_draco]

Most of them have espoused the breed/greed philosophy but this latest bloke seems to have some interesting ideas around a lot of things. He's got "promise", at least.

[Neutronstar]

++1. Very well said.

Greed and ego are the bigger issues, they drive the economy of money, and there is never enough of that for the rich. Its not religion, its greed and money thats the problem. Religion is just used as an excuse.

Making Mars habitable is only a temporary step, we need to use it as a stepping stone.

If only we could stop fighting each other on this planet and put all the world's military resources into space travel. Ohh, what we could achieve. :sadeyes:

[xelasnave]

It is exciting that we think we could make Mars habitable.
Maybe we will. But if we do Mars becomes another political entity.
No doubt they will demand independence and no doubt there will be war...
Yes it seems reasonable let's go for it.

[Hans Tucker]

Where is it written that we have a divine right to be here and rule over everything. Is this a quote out of a book of stories written and compiled over 2000 years. Lets leave religion out of this discussion, it has caused enough problems in the world. Lets deal with hard scientific fact.

[xelasnave]

My point Hans is that "right" is written in religious text and therefore taken by many ,even most, folk as their GOD given right to use and abuse.

It is not science but not to recognise many hold such belief would be unfortunate.

I merely suggest until we can convince many what is written may not be sensible the believers will not change their ways.

I read someplace that Press R Regan was not worried about pollution etc cause you know who would take care of any problems..when religion manifests at such a level it should be taken into account..and called to account.

Anyways I will abandon this line as it goes against TOS

[Neutronstar]

I doubt it, Martians will be dependent on Earth for a lot of things.
We will trade, they will become a premier holiday destination.

Wanderers - a short film by Erik Wernquist
http://vimeo.com/108650530

I will buy the "Total Recall" postcard on Mars to send back to Earth.

[xelasnave]

Those students don't know what they have started.

[cometcatcher]

I just want to know one thing before we go and contaminate Mars too badly with our own microorganisms - does Mars have life? The implications of a positive answer are massive. The question becomes harder to answer if we contaminate the place with our own. A question I would like answered before we go rape and pillage the joint.