Electronic Cigarettes

[Renato1]

For the poor long suffering smokers out there - and there are certainly a few at my club - having a carton a week habit now costs around $8000 a year to maintain. That's a nice big Takahashi up in smoke every year.

But depending on which State one lives in, one can replace the filthy habit with nicotine electronic cigarettes, which give the same amount of nicotine and puffs for a total cost of around $60 a year.

One can't sell nicotine liquid for the electronic cigarettes anywhere in Australia, but the Federal Government allows one to import a reasonable amount for personal use (i.e. about 3 months supply).

The actual electronic cigarettes can be bought legally in all States except WA, where a recent court decision banned them.

In Victoria, use/ownership of nicotine e-liquid is banned out right, but there is no problem using e-cigarettes with Zero milligram e-liquid , which is available in lots of shops.

Anyhow, electronic nicotine cigarettes are legal in lots of places around the world - UK, USA, Italy etc - and are having a huge impact on people switching from regular cigarettes, despite their prices not being anywhere as high as here.

But astronomy wise, the main advantage of electronic cigarettes is that they don't affect your night vision, like when you light up a normal cigarette. Nor does the second hand smoke drift across someone else's pristine optics at a club viewing night.

Health wise, if one watches the Euronews article on Youtube about them, you'll see that the health risks associated with electronic cigarettes are akin to those of pesticides in vegetables and too much salt in food i.e. orders of magnitude less than for the smoking real cigarettes.
Regards,
Renato

[xelasnave]

What if you smoke a pipe.
Very informative post thanks.

[GrahamL]

Both can still put you in A&E :/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2791061/smoker-s-legs-nearly-torn-e-cigarette-explodes-like-grenade.html

[RAJAH235]

I tried one a few years ago but ended up with severe headaches.

Went back to my pipe.

A total waste of over $120.00 because of their "no refund after use" policy.

No thanks.
:)

All I salvaged were the aluminium cylinders & single cell Li-Pos.
I junked the rest.

[Renato1]

They sell electronic pipes - but they cost three or four times the price of a base grade e-cigarette. Cost of e-liquid is obviously the same.
Regards,
Renato

[Renato1]

Rechargeable Lithium batteries blowing up from dodgy chargers isn't confined to e-cigarettes. A chap involved with firefighting was telling me some people got killed or severely injured by their laptops due to dodgy chargers.
Regards,
Renato

[Renato1]

Cheap and good e-cigarettes are $28 from tobacconists in Australia, and around $8 from China for the same thing.

The big problem is knowing what sort of nicotine level suits you, else your head may well spin or hurt.
That used to be easy because for health reasons the Government made tobacco companies put it on their packets.
But then, possibly because people were using the information to make it easier to switch to cheaper brands, the government forced that information off the packets.

I once spent a very frustrating time trying to Google the nicotine content of local brands.
Regards,
Renato

[chiaroscuro]

While the vapour from e-cigarettes is certainly less toxic than tobacco smoke, there's still a few problems with them. Firstly, the public health perspective is that it would "re-normalise" smoking, which has slowly become more and more socially unacceptable in most situations, leading people to want to quit.

And secondly, nicotine is still bad for you - its the ingredient that damages blood vessels including the tiny retinal blood vessels in our eyes, that we rely on for astronomy.
So my advice as a former smoker who had a lot of trouble giving up - if you're going to use the e-cigarettes to help you quit the nicotine habit - then all the best, but if you're going to use them long term, they'll still cause coronary artery disease, eye disease, kidney disease etc, so just use them as a tool to quit the nicotine habit altogether. Good luck.

[Renato1]

That's not the proposition that 100 French Doctors put their names too, when saying that e-cigarettes shouldn't be regulated. They plainly wouldn't have done so if the health effects had been as bad as you suggest.

Certainly though, one should Google the subject and see what comes up.
Regards,
Renato

[Bassnut]

OK, so what about ecigarettes with no nicotine.

[Solitarian]

French breast implants by PIP are just as safe too, they told us so.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Maybe the french are making electronic lungs to go with the electronic gaspers

EDIT: that was insensitive of me, so many people wrongfully suffered due to those implants , I apologize for making light of their situation, that wasn't my intention

[chiaroscuro]

I don't know about these 100 French Doctors, but here is what the Cleveland Clinic says:
http://health.clevelandclinic.org/2014/09/e-cigarettes-tobacco-free-but-your-heart-may-still-be-at-risk/

And another medical paper:
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/health-risks-e-cigarettes-emerge

All I'm saying is that there is emerging evidence that e-cigarettes are not safe. Its early days - it took decades before the evidence for tobacco harm emerged, and it would be either naive or foolish to dismiss the evidence so far.

As for e-cigarettes without nicotine, read the second paper which discusses the problems with inhaling a heated vapour. Lungs do not like having small organic molecules inhaled into them.

It took me 3 attempts to give up smoking. Its a wickedly difficult habit to break, and I know that one of the rationalisations used is to tell yourself what your doing is not likely to cause you a problem. But in the end, why risk your health and life for the chance to inhale small organic molecules that damage every organ in your body? That the question I kept asking myself to motivate me to quit.

[Renato1]

The first article seems to have a lot of maybes in it. The second article seems to be more worried about the higher powered variable voltage e- cigarettes. Might be wise to keep the voltage on low. Thanks for the information.

Anyhow, I found the Euronews article from 9 months ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKQ0RCsilPo

Take your pick of what to worry about.
Cheers,
Renato

[Renato1]

Yes, there were some botch ups with breast implants.
But the silicone breast implant hysteria was pretty much akin to the RSI hysteria - human psychology put to bad use by lawyers, which made their clients miserable and fearful, and themselves rich.
Regards,
Renato

[Solitarian]

Seriously???????

You've been smoking something a lot worse than e-cigarettes:screwy:

[Renato1]

When in doubt, read the Wikipedia article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_implant

Good luck finding the medical horror that you are implying.
Particularly read the "Criticism" part down the bottom.

Regards,
Renato

[kinetic]

Dude,

you don't mind if I call you dude?

As thoughtful, balanced advice doesn't seem to be your thing, how about this health resort:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/03/welcome-to-marlboro-country-philip-morris-stakes-a-last-claim-in-the-west/274056/
Seems legit.
Maybe your whole approach is wrong. Go figure.....:thumbsup:

[DJT]

hmm..I quit smoking 3 years ago after one of those bizarre lightbulb moments whilst in a traffic jam. Listening to the radio, I suddenly found that the idea of arguing the toss with the poor gal at Coles about wanting the "drab olive green packaged B&H, next to the equally drab JPS specials also in olive green..no, no no, the drab olive green ones in the row above...blah blah blah" really didn't appeal.

This weekend I tipped the $19800 mark re money not spent on fags but on astro crap instead and am planning the $20K party. ( and as a side note its also a mere 8 years 31 weeks till the AP 130GT fast bugger arrives..)

This was after 30 years of trying to quit. Go figure. :shrug:

Sadly I am still in the hole by $8k and that does not include the obsy build costs but I get away with that because there is a spot for the loved ones garden trowel.

However..the point is that eCigs had just arrived at that time but in my jaundiced wall eyed view, they are just replacing one form of addiction with another..the need to have an eCig. The health issues are also a concern. Would love to know which industry sponsors are pushing eCigs..

[Renato1]

Well, actually I do mind.

What exactly that article you've linked to has to do with anything under discussion here, appears to lie in some tortuous link buried in the back of your brain.

Feel free to try bring it out in the open, when you become cognizant of what it is.
Regards,
Renato

[kinetic]

Facepalm

[Renato1]

Perhaps your Guiness identifier explains your incomprehensibility?
Regards,
Renato

[Solitarian]

I'm happy that Wiki can provide solace and justification for your misguided thoughts.

[Renato1]

Your choice - you can back up what you claim to know about breast implants, or you can choose to leave unaddressed the fairly objective representation of the facts as they are now known that I have linked to.

However, I don't think that the pretense that you have superior knowledge of the matter, but which you are unwilling to share, qualifies as "discussion".
Regards,
Renato

[graham.hobart]

Replacing nicotine with nicotine (without the other noxious aerosol/ vapours) in my mind is fraught with difficulties if you think that nicotine replacement is a main stay of smoking cessation techniques- usually in a step down process.
Because nicotine is such a short acting drug (hence you smoke 20 a day not one) what is the control with e-cigs to stop over use and perpetuate a dependence?
At least with patches it is modified release preps and part of the PBS scheme for smoking cessation is a gradual reduction in strength i.e 21mgs/ 14mgs / 7 mgs etc
Where is the mechanism for over use control?
I also agree that heating up and inhaling particles into the delicate pulmonary tissues is asking for trouble. Even if a study of 20 people didn't show any negative cardiovascular effects.
Sir Richard Dolls land mark epidemiology study on smokers took years before the findings were universally accepted, mainly because of resistance by the industry but also some medical experts.
WE can expect mixed messages about this as well.
Graham

[Solitarian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Help yourself :rofl:

[Renato1]

I see that, as at the time, you most probably took your main news sources on the silicone breast implant issue from Woman's Day or New Idea, you are unwilling to now cough up anything relevant.
Regards,
Renato

[Renato1]

If you are charging the battery (when the explosions have occurred), you won't be having the e-cigarette.

That said, some of the really big e-cigarettes bear a striking resemblance to dildos. At the moment one can buy them with inbuilt LCD screens, and MP3 player and radio and flashlight.

I suspect it's only a matter of time before they come out with a Bill Clinton version.
Regards,
Renato

[Renato1]

Hi Graham,
If you look at that Youtube link I posted, no one is saying anything about wanting to reduce nicotine and quit smoking. They just want to switch to something cheaper and/or safer. Although if they do switch to vaping with e-cigarettes, they have quit smoking. E-cigarettes are not a tobacco item.

You ask where is the mechanism to control over use? I ask, where is the mechanism to stop a 2 cigarette a day Marlboro Gold user, switching to Camels or Marlboro Red and smoking two packets?
Or what's stopping that user from being a smoker of the light Marlboro Gold and buying packets of much stronger patches, gum and lozenges?
They're the exact same thing. I am unsure why you are into wanting to control something for the sake of control, when millions of people seem to have no difficulty.

I know that not inhaling anything is best. But both you and I know that is never going to happen with a segment of the population.
So, from a public policy perspective, which do you think would be best for them, regular cigarettes or e-cigarettes?
Regards,
Renato

[Solitarian]

The 60's weren't kind to you were they? :lol: :P

I find your posts amusing , I never open your links, I gather their selected biased views that favour your wacky way of thinking.

[Renato1]

Fascinating - you finally admit that you choose to remain deliberately and utterly ignorant in order to participate in a discussion.

And throw in personal and irrelevant barbs as well, when I don't have the temerity to agree with those deliberately ignorant-of-facts views.

And instead of reading a source of facts presented by me, you instead choose to hunt up something else totally irrelevant on Wikipedia, to present instead.

Very strange behaviour, in my opinion.
Regards,
Renato

[Solitarian]

Fos, do you have a link that supports that view?
I gave you the wiki home page link to help you out but you seem too blind to see things as they really are.

Maybe you have a scan of an irrelevant article from your favourite girlie magazine, you do only buy them for the articles I'm sure.:rolleyes:

[Renato1]

The link which you have categorically admitted that you didn't want to read, and which I told you which section was particularly relevant, is below. And it is in a response to a post by you. Now suddenly you want to read it, but ask for it again.

What exactly is your difficulty?

And what is your perverse fascination with sexual habits that you ascribe to me? I suspect it says something more about you than it does me.
Regards,
Renato

[Renato1]

Hi Everyone,
For those interested in this post the following scary article appeared in the Murdoch Herald Sun of 29 Nov 2014 page 32.

EVEN MORE E-CANCEROUS

"E-CIGARETTES contain up to 10 times the level of cancer-causing agents as regular tobacco, Japanese scientists said on Thursday, the latest blow to an invention once heralded as less harmful than smoking.
The electronic devices function by heating flavoured liquid, which often contains nicotine, into a vapour that is inhaled.
Japan’s Health Ministry commissioned the study, which found carcinogens such as formaldehyde and acetaldehyde in vapour produced by several types of e-cigarette liquid.

Formaldehyde — a substance found in building materials and embalming fluids — was present at much higher levels than carcinogens found in the smoke from regular cigarettes. "

This was so disturbing that my wife cut out the article for me to read.

So I did a Google Search and found an article by The Guardian about the exact same Japanese health report at
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...garette-safety
(http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/28/japan-e-cigarette-safety)
This gives a lot more detail and the the exact opposite conclusion to that in the Herald Sun,
specifically

“Health ministry officials acknowledged that the elevated formaldehyde levels found in a single brand of e-cigarette was not proof in itself that vaping posed an increased cancer risk.”

Pretty astounding I thought.
Regards,
Renato

[xelasnave]

Why is formaldehyde in them.

And so we have a new human enterprise ..those producing, those using, those against and lobbiest for either side.
The good news is many humans are occupied ..that's what it's all about finally

[Renato1]

It's not particularly clear from the Guardian article. though it could be read that instead of having formaldehyde in them, the base ingredients from one brand got converted to formaldehyde more so than in other brands.

Reading various forums though, one health issue came up from people who are actually into vaping which hasn't appeared in research. Many people suffering from tinnitus (ringing in the ear) claim that when vaping with the thicker Propylene Glycerine e-liquid their tinnitus gets worse, whereas they have no trouble with vegetable glycerine e-liquid.
Regards,
Renato

[xelasnave]

What an industry, we can employ doctors as well and who knows in 20 years lawyers can get into it as well with negligence actions...

[rustigsmed]

On the surface it appears to be a better option than smoking.
I've heard reports that its more intense or 'more addictive', is this really the case? I presume the majority of the users are ex smokers (thus how addictive is kind of nonsense), i'm sure we'll see the day however when school kids hide behind the shed and vap. no smoke smell to give them away anymore!

[xelasnave]

How do I buy shares.
Could you vap medication..
Like vics maybe set up for assma suffers

[Renato1]

What is happening is that tobacconists sell the electronic cigarettes and zero nicotine e-liquid to the public. And some them sell the illegal nicotine e-liquid under the counter to you if they know you. Only problem is that many such bottles don't have a label on them to say how much nicotine is in them, whereas those purchased from overseas are appropriately labelled with the nicotine content.

So if one is say a smoker of mid strength regular cigarettes who would have no problem vaping 8mg or 11mg nicotine e-liquid, one is very likely to get spun out (feel it in your head for a few minutes) if vaping the 18mg or 24mg e-liquid which are meant for the smokers of heavy cigarettes.

Similarly for those who smoke light cigarettes who would be better off with 6mg or 8mg e-liquid, they'd find the heavy strength way too much. I suspect that this aspect is where the notion of "more intense" comes from, as people either don't know the nicotine content of what they vape, or don't know which level is appropriate for them. But it would be the same case as if a regular smoker of Marlboro Gold suddenly smoked a packet of Marlboro Red or Camels

Most vaping people I've spoken to rate e-cigarettes, when used with the appropriate nicotine level e-liquid that equates to what they normally smoke, as at about 70% of the way towards the feel and experience of a real cigarette.
Regards,
Renato

[Renato1]

Hard to say whether vaping would be any good for medicines. Some would plainly have their molecules destroyed or reduced by the atomiser heating process. And I guess some wouldn't be affected, as plainly vaping doesn't affect the flavour of strawberry, raspberry, lemon, apple, grapefruit, grape, watermelon and tobacco flavoured e-cigarettes.

Best not to try it, I suspect.

Tobacco companies, seeing the writing on the wall, have now jumped in and started buying out all these new upstarts who had been wrecking their cigarette sales. I guess the figure that they could use their brand names on the e-liquids and charge a premium.

Regards,
Renato