Just another question about equipment!

[grasshopper]

Hi all,

New to the forum and I have been trawling through the forums to get an idea of what would be a good starting point for my son, and now I am completely bamboozled! LOL.

I have an almost 8 year old son (Aspergers - not that that matters at all, but it might help describe his passion :)) and he has a basic chain store bought telescope that he was given several years ago that just doesn't cut the mustard so I am looking to upgrade to something that he will get some enjoyment out of, along with a junior membership to the ASV. We have been along to the night tours at the Melbourne Observatory several times over the past year and I am keen to foster his interest.

Do you think that the Skywatcher 8 inch collapsible Dobsonian would be too much for me to lug about to monthly ASV meetings? Or is there something else that you could suggest in a similar price range?

Main criteria is not having to upgrade TOO soon and portability only really required for the odd meeting/outdoor adventure as we are likely to use primarily from home.

Thanks so much for your help! :)

[glend]

An eight inch dobsonian would be a good starting point as they are easy to use. A planetarium app like Sky Safari is a good tool to use to locate objects and learn the night sky - works on iphones or any android device, download from Google Store for Android version.

[GeoffW1]

Hi,

First of all big congrats to you for pitching in on behalf of your son. I really hope this plan progresses well. If you get the impression here I am speaking from experience, yes, I am.

I'd suggest he needs to feel he has a good prideful bit of kit, and a solid performance basis to talk to others about it, here online, and at astro get-togethers with you there, if communications are a bit of a challenge.

To address your questions, I think 8" is about the right size range for visual astro, and your needs right now. You need a degree of portability, respectability, and sheer aperture for urban astro and the occasional trip to a darker site. That right?

Now I've got to ask a delicate question here in public. Does your son show a liking for mechanisms and setting them up by fiddling over some time, or is his attention span shorter and better suited to a package deal, so to speak?

If the former, go for it. There is much equipment here for sale on IIS, and good quality too. We can steer you even if you buy new.

If the latter I would not get a collapsible Dob (yet). This will be contentious, and may attract differing opinions here, but I will suggest that such a Dob can be frustrating to set up and collimate properly for a young beginner. And you do have to do that, after transporting it each time and breaking it down. A collapsible Dob can supply discouragement, and I think you don't need that for your scheme. I have seen a mature bloke go to throw his 10" Lightbridge in the ocean out of sheer frustration with this setup requirement.

In that case I would recommend a 8" Schmidt-Cassegrain scope. They are short, tubby, portable, and hold collimation quite well through being taken off the mount and put on again. There is a collimation procedure on them, but as I say, it is needed less, and is easier and more intuitive.

Alternatively you could get a 4" refractor. These don't need collimating at all, and are so easy to transport. That is about the largest size which fits in a budget If you buy the real quality brands like Takahashi, they can cost a bomb :D A brand like Skywatcher is not junk, but more at the budget end.

I have not mentioned the mounting. You can get just as much controversy here, and if not selecting a Dob, then for a young beginner, I'd recommend an AZ3 with a 4" refractor, or a EQ5 equatorial mount with a 8" SCT.

Then there are the Go-To mounts. These are not a budget selection really, so maybe for later. They are motor-driven mounts which when set up properly, can slew around to any selected target in the sky. They are available in any sort of mount, and really suit the gadgeteer sort of beginning user.

Hope that assists

[grasshopper]

Thanks for your replies Glen and Geoff, it is much appreciated.

Geoff, my son is a bit of a fiddler but can get easily distracted if he is not completely engaged (unless it is something to do with cars, which has been his life long obsession since before he could walk!) He has a keen interest in astronomy and it would be nice to see him focus some of his energy towards something other than cars which is why I am interested in capitalising on this interest he has. And since he could chew anyone's ear off talking about the things he loves, joining a group of like-minded people will be fantastic for him socially.

I feel he is more geared toward statistics, numbers, facts, seeing the objects he knows about, etc. rather than the equipment (I think) as he scours books for information (and is gaining quite a collection!), but that may change once he has a better quality piece and can get out there and learn the art. So your suggestion of finding a scope that is easier for him to handle is a good one. I quickly googled the one you suggested but it is a little out of my price range at this point. Hoping to find something <$1000 to start with so any other similar recommendations would be greatly appreciated if you have the time.

I am the one with the short attention span and as I'm the one who will likely be accompanying him to meetings and learning alongside him, we need something that I am capable of using too! :lol: I am sure after a few uses he will be teaching me though ;)

Thanks again for your advice. It seems there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum and I look forward to becoming part of it.

Cheers,
Tara

[Allan_L]

Hi Tara, and welcome (you and your son) to IceInSpace :welcome:,

The Skywatcher 8" Collapsible Dobsonian you mentioned is an ideal instrument (IMHO) for your needs.

It is portable, and because it is collapsible (as apposed to breaking down into separate components) it does not cause the assembly problems Geoff mentioned earlier which are found in Lightbridge and similar Truss Dobs. It is simplicity in itself to set up, and holds it collimation pretty well. (I have had two, a 10" and a 12"). You can be up and running in as little as 5 minutes.
And it is the best bang for buck of any telescope system.
And they hold their value fairly well if you come to sell it down the line.

To assist in locating and identifying celestial targets, I always recommend downloading the brilliant FREE Planetarium Software called Stellarium. at
http://stellarium.org/

Good luck with your purchasing decision.
And keep asking questions.

[julianh72]

If your son is into lists, statistics, numbers, etc, he might be interested in getting into making lists of associated targets, and ticking them off as he finds them; for example, the Messier objects, Caldwell objects, double stars, craters of the Moon, asteroids, etc.

He can record his hunts in a simple notebook, but if he enjoys technical "toys", an app like SkySafari (available on both iOS and Android devices) might suit. The apps have the advantage of having some good lists already compiled, will help him locate them in the night sky, and he can record his observations in the app as they occur.

Having a set of observing goals (with varying degrees of difficulty - for example, some Messier objects are easy "Wow!" finds, and others can be infuriatingly difficult, especially if you have light-polluted skies) might help to maintain a level of interest after the first few nights of casual "stargazing".

[Merlin66]

Tara,
I have grandchildren about the same age.
The Dobbie is a great idea - but for the novice it's high maintenance. I mean screws get "adjusted" and it can be a devil of a job getting everything back to a good workable condition. I know what kids can be like....
IMHO a better, and more robust, starting point would be a small refractor on an alt-azimuth mount. Something like an ED80 with a suitable mount.
Two or three eyepieces is all you need for starters - 25/12/9mm or thereabout.
He (and you) will still enjoy the quality views of the moon and the planets as well as star clusters, etc.
Just my 2c

[grasshopper]

Thank you Allen, Julian and Ken.

Allen - Thank you for the warm welcome and great to hear your opinion re the Skywatcher dob! :) You make it sound quite simple, although I am worried about the conflicting information re: ease of use/maintenance. I presume this is the sort of thing that becoming an ASV member would help with though - teaching him how to care for it? I will go and check out that Stellarium program - thanks!

Julian - yes, he would definitely enjoy planning and writing lists to tick off and note down his observations. He has an iPad mini that we can download some apps onto so I will have a look at SkySafari as you and Glen suggested, especially if they are likely to have lists compiled already as that would be helpful for the both of us.

Ken - thankfully my son is quite mature for his years and likes to follow things to the letter as far as instructions and things go, so I am sure that whatever piece of equipment we choose he will be respectful and not play around with it and will likely tell ME when I'm doing something wrong! :lol: Given his nature, do you still feel that a dob would be impractical? I will go and google the ED80 now and check it out, and thank you for your advice re eyepieces :)

[julianh72]

He should enjoy SkySafari then!
http://skysafariastronomy.com/
(Make sure you get SkySafari 4 rather than SkySafari 3.)

The attached screenshots show some of the built-in search / observing lists, and the ability to create your own lists, and how you can record your observations when you find a chosen target. You can also create lists of your equipment (telescopes, eyepieces, binoculars, etc), and record these to your "observation" records as well.

There are 3 levels of the app (with different prices):

SkySafari 4 basic is probably good enough for most users, but SkySafari 4 Plus adds the ability to control your telescope (if you have the necessary hardware and adapters), but it also adds the ability to "fly into orbit" around other objects in the solar system or nearby stars, which is pretty cool! SkySafari 4 Pro is probably "overkill" for all but the most experienced amateur astronomers, because it adds a vast database of objects which are much too feint to see with a modest telescope.

[Renato1]

If I were you, I'd be looking here and at Ebay for a second hand 6" or 8" dob. Kids have a habit of losing interest quickly. Alternatively any sort of short focal length 80mm to 100mm refractor, would be good - it will always be handy for the bigger brighter objects, even if he gets a bigger telescope later. And if he abandons the hobby, it is still useful for looking at things during the day

The 8" collapsible - do you really want to set it up every night in your back yard? And make sure it is collimated correctly? Things are a lot easier when one carries the dob's base out, and then plonks the tube on it and it is ready for viewing. A six inch dob is easier to handle, but won't show as many galaxies as an 8".
Regards,
Renato

[ZeroID]

Good advice on the short FL 80-100 refractor. They are quite cheap yet surprisingly effective. My 80mm f5, which is usually my guider scope is also my grab and go on an Alt\Z tripod. No collimation required, easy setup. One of those and a few EPs will get you started for probably a few hundred dollars and will always be useful for even land based viewing with an erecting diagonal.

The ED80 is a similar scope but with special glass elements to reduce chromatic aberration (coloured edges). Very good for imaging but also quite expensive by comparison. For the afficianado it is the way to go but for starting astro nuts a bit of overkill IMHO.
And if the bug really bites and you get an ED80 or similar later then the 80f5 becomes a guide scope anyway, so no loss.
And they hold their value quite well.

My 2c's anyway :D

[grasshopper]

Thanks for your advice Renato and Brent.

You're right. I think we would get longevity out of a dob, but after watching some YouTube vids on collimating I probably don't want to be doing that everyday! Do the full size dobs need to be collimated less often than the collapsible ones?

I will have a look around for a refractor and pop back with some further questions/opinions. It's probably not a bad idea to go down this route first anyway, and then upgrade him down the track as that would be fun for him researching and choosing new equipment once he understands it more and having another piece of equipment is never going to go astray.

It's all quite overwhelming, but I'm slowly starting to learn some terms through researching equipment so I might be able to learn alongside him after all!

And Renato, I sometimes wish I had a child who lost interest in things quickly! ;) Thankfully I have a 2 year old daughter who satisfies that criteria!! :lol:

Thanks all for your help so far - it is much appreciated :)

[grasshopper]

Thanks for the screenshots and information about the different version of SkySafari, Julian! I will download the Plus version for him.

On that note, besides eyepieces (which I will ask about once I have narrowed down the scope purchase) what other gear should I be looking at getting for him to start out with?

[julianh72]

How long is a piece of string? (And how much money do you have?!)

Seriously, though, you can have a LOT of fun with nothing more than a telescope with two eyepieces, and some sort of guide to find your way around the night sky.

Many hobbyist telescopes are provided with two eyepieces; one for wider angle views, and one for more close-up work. (25 mm and 10 mm, or something similar, are the common basic "starter" set.) Over time (assuming he stays with the hobby) he may want more and / or better quality eyepieces, but I wouldn't rush into this until you have some experience with the telescope, and what sort of objects he is most interested in observing. (New eyepieces will make great Birthday and Christmas presents for the next couple of years!)

SkySafari is a great tool for finding targets and recording your observations, but he may also appreciate a good Observer's Guide book or star atlas, such as the "Astronomy 2015 Yearbook for Australia" http://shop.iceinspace.com.au/shop/astronomy-2015-yearbook/, but again, this would make a great Christmas gift!

The other specific sub-hobby he might be interested in would be astro-photography. I wouldn't rush in to spending too much money too quickly, but you can buy brackets for holding a basic digital camera up to the eyepiece for shooting the Moon etc for a few dollars on eBay, or for $100 - $300 you can buy digital planetary / solar system "eyepiece cameras" for shooting the Moon or the brighter planets. For deep-space photography (nebulae, galaxies, etc), you need more expensive equipment, a good tracking mount, etc, all of which suddenly takes you into a whole different class of expenditure!

[ZeroID]

+1 For Julians comments.
A couple of good value EP's I got were the GSO Superview 15mm and 20mm. They offer a wider view at a reasonable price ($50 - $70 or so)and are quite good performers. keep them in mind for later options.

Video on the moon is quite rewarding as being close there is lots of detail, it is relatively easy even with a simple webcam and it's dang good practice for later on.
10 secs of video @ 30 fps ( frames per second ) requires no guiding and after stacking can give detail into craters and at the terminator ( sunlight\dark edge ) where shadows reveal the mountains and valleys. can be fun identifying and learning lunar topography.

Planets are good but being very small and far away are quite a bit more of a challenge to get any resolution.

Here's a pic of my Grab & Go 'Little Blue' scope that we are talking about. 80mm objective, f5 (400mm) focal length. It's an achromatic so for planets might show some edge colour but for general viewing and Lunar it has good light capability and is robust and easy to use. If you can find one with a decent AZ3 mount it is a good starting point.
On a good dark night it is capable of showing dust clouds around M42 (Orion) and some other nebula.
I also have it's longer brother, a 80mm f11.3 (904mm) which gives higher magnification but is otherwise identical, just a longer tube.

[grasshopper]

Apologies for my delayed response - crazy week!

Blake went along to the Junior ASV meeting on Friday and the poor thing really struggled. After 3 attempts at going inside, hyperventilating and retreating back to the car twice, he finally made it in to listen for a little while. The next day he said that he really enjoyed it and wants to go again but I think it might take him a little while to find his feet in this social setting. He was determined to give it a go though so I'm pretty proud of him!

Julian - yes, that was a very open ended question wasn't it? :lol: I should have said 'essential' gear that he would need but by the looks of that app, I think he will have a blast like you said with just that and a new scope. Good idea re: a book - I will try to get my hands on one as he has a birthday coming up next week. As for Astrophotography - B was pretty impressed with the pics that some of the kids at the meeting had taken, so I do think he would enjoy the basic side of that too. We have an old dSLR and P&S that he could use - I will suss out the requirements for that down the track once he has found his feet.

Thanks for the eyepiece suggestions Brent and for sharing the specs of those scopes of yours. Off to research those! Cheers :)