A great day for minorities

[Steffen]

I know that here on IIS we are (mostly) in enlightened company, so this may be akin to taking owls to Athens, but I thought I share this anyway:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-10-30/tim-cook-im-proud-to-be-gay

If the CEO of the biggest company on earth says "I'm proud to be gay" then I hope that this will be shifting attitudes and eventually make a difference to people who suffer merely because they belong to some minority or other. I don't pretend to have any great insight into their plight, not being a member of any minority I'm aware of, but I do feel that this has got to be a strong signal for anybody rallying against bigotry.

Just saying,
Steffen.

[AstralTraveller]

:thumbsup:

[Nikolas]

As much as I applaud him I just want to know why it is so important to tell everyone. I mean how will this affect his running of the company? The same can be said for Thorpie. You'd think we would be past this stage of caring who is banging who regardless of gender and just live life, why broadcast it?

[Steffen]

Yes, you and I would totally think so. The reality for gay people is, sadly, different. I just hope that this will change soon.

EDIT Just adding to this: Life's easier if you're not a member of any minority group and don't have to cope with persistent (if unlawful) discrimination in daily life.

Cheers
Steffen.

[strongmanmike]

"I don’t consider myself an activist, but I realize how much I’ve benefited from the sacrifice of others. So if hearing that the CEO of Apple is gay can help someone struggling to come to terms with who he or she is, or bring comfort to anyone who feels alone, or inspire people to insist on their equality, then it’s worth the trade-off with my own privacy."

That's why

and it's not just about "banging" as you so eloquently put it :rolleyes: its about being able to be proud of a loving and caring relationship and be open about it, without fear of retribution and ridicule so the more people speak about it and tell everyone the more accepted and normalised it becomes = simple concept really.

[OzStarGazer]

:thumbsup:!!!

[PCH]

To any and all who promote this concept, all I can say is that when a pair of guys or a pair gals get together and want to raise kids, any support I may have had for their rights stops right there.

Society does everything it can to protect kids' interests, which is right of course, but for some obscure reason it does a complete backflip when it allows gays to have kids, whether through adoption or otherwise.

It will never be normal or ok for a kid to grow up in that environment IMO.

[The Mekon]

I fully agree & well said PCH. But I feel this thread needs to be closed before we go any further.

[koputai]

Hehehe, yes sometimes it seems that way Matt, but we white Anglo males do have it pretty good. I for one am thankful that in this country, and at this time, I am the 'standard' member of society, and I feel empathy for those that are treated differently the further they deviate from the 'norm'.

Imagine walking along at your local shops, having people look at you differently because you are black. Or being scared of being bashed because you're gay, or being subject to domestic violence because you're a woman. Imagine living in fear. There should simply be no need for another human being to feel this way.

Wow, that went a bit longer than planned. Back to normal programming.....

Cheers,
Jason.

[blink138]

bravo matt!
and chris i am not so sure about what you said................. there are (too) many abusive hetero marriages that do not deserve to have children, i think a loving and caring environment is OBVIOUSLY the most important thing regardless of sexual preference
do you think that a child brought up with homosexual parents are going to grow up being homosexual themselves?
they should be vetted exactly the same as an adopting hetero couple in my opinion
regards
pat

[blink138]

................. oh and as for the title of this thread...... so what?
does he somehow want special recognition for being brave and telling the world? get over yourself i say.......... bad dog........... no biscuit!
he is certainly not the only gay in the village!
pat

[Octane]

His homosexuality has been known about since he took over the Apple helm from Steve Jobs.

H

[rat156]

At risk of getting this thread locked, you, sir, are a homophobic bigot.

Clearly you don't know any homosexual couples. Why you would want to deny a child the chance of growing up in a loving caring relationship is beyond belief. Your version of "normal" has been shaped by your upbringing. Many children in many cultures other than our own grow up in mostly single sex relationships, usually maternal, usually because the father is away from home working.

If you feel threatened by a couple's homosexual relationship, perhaps that's your problem. Don't put your problems onto other people. Grow up, accept people as homosexual, that they fell it's normal and that they can be as good or better parents than most heterosexual couples.

They may not be physically capable of the actual act of breeding, but if you're going to stop couples from being parents because they can't have children then you're casting a wide net.

Please keep your homophobic opinions to yourself, they don't belong on a public forum.

Stuart

[PeterEde]

Why can't people just live their life. Why do they feel their sexuality is something to share with the world? The only people this matters to are the individual and his immediate family and friends.
Gay fine I don't care.
Kids not via IVF, adoption or artificial insemination. Those options are for hetros who for medical reasons can't be parents. Not people who cant be parents because of their sexuality. The birth right of every child is to have a loving mother and father. Not 2 parents the same sex.
I don't care whether they would be loving or not. Simple fact is a child growing up in a gay environment is 100% not normal.
The rights of a child are violated when adopted or born into these environments without choice.

And I love how it's ok for some to speak their opinion but as soon as someone has an opposing one they are labeled a bigot.
Now close the thread. Like it should have been from the very first post

[caveastola]

Gay people need to get over their own insecurity, they are not any more special than anyone else.

[Chris85]

I am literally lost for words at the bigotry displayed here in this thread. Unbelievable

[blink138]

i think i put it just a tad more sesitively than that!
keep it clean and there is no reason why itshould be locked......... simple!
oh and your "pro" version is more vitriolic!
pat
pat

[jenchris]

Words fail me.
GLBTI folks are treated like lepers from pre adolescence.
Bullied, dissed, taunted,reviled.
And even when they achieve great things, still people try to denigrate and belittle them..
The CEO of Apple was praising his company, not preening.

To deny anyone children is tantamount to fascism.
Better two loving parents than one lonely broken woman, left by an abusive
philanderer.

[blink138]

peter i hope you do see the irony in your last paragraph!?........... because you have yourself lambasted someone that has an opposing view ha ha!
the hypocrisy is monumental!!
i wonder what percentage of hetero adopted children have been abused over the years? do you know of an adopted person that has been unaffected by their adoption, i know a number............ that said i dont think your view of a "normal" hetero relationship have a good record either
what i said above is that a loving caring couple maketh a kind human being...... end of!!
pat

[blink138]

ha ha oh dear, i did mean that i know a number of adopted people and all have been affected in some way............. and ALL have wanted to find out were they are from!........... but that is another story!!
pat

[Steffen]

Well, who would have thought, homophobia is alive and well. I hope this answers the question why Cook would see a need to go public with his sexuality.

Cheers
Steffen.

[strongmanmike]

I'm confident Steffen that rationality, logic and ethics will win in the end. Like apartheid in SA, racial segregation in the US (and Australia) and a womans place being in the home, the old antiquated narrow minded views formed on baseless perceptions and not facts will slowly die a natural death and we will all get used to seeing same sex couples as we do every other couple, they will always be a minority but society will come to see them as quite normal in every way :)

Mike

[Steffen]

I share this confidence, but sometimes things seem to progress too slowly, measured in terms of a person's lifetime. It can be disheartening to see oneself surrounded by medievalists masquerading as modern people.

Cheers
Steffen.

[sheeny]

We are watching this thread.

May I just remind all participants, the topic is NOT whether or not gays can have kids. Please keep it on topic and play the ball not the player.

Topics around social change are always going to be controversial, and important (social change can't happen without discussion), but keep it civil, please, or it will be shutdown.

Al.

[jenchris]

Stability in a relationship is quite rare these days.
I've been with my partner for 34 years. It seems that we're unusual in the normal scheme of things.
The way a relationship works has a lot to do with public acceptance as well as caring within the couple.
I don't care whether a couple are as disparate as African Bushman and Inuit Indian, if they love each other and can develop a stable environment to bring up a child, why should they not? Their sex OR gender is irrelevant. As it is in work or community status.
PS I'm not talking about having kids here, I'm talking about stability and acceptance.

[rat156]

Hi Al and Mods,

The thread evolved from "The CEO of Apple announced that he is gay" to "Gays don't have the right to have kids" very early on. If the thread had stayed on the original topic I would not have posted. BUT when I see someone advocating that another person has no right to have kids because of their sexual preference I cannot sit idly by and let them expose their bigotry, it must be challenged. Particularly, in this case, as their argument is based on ideology rather than fact.

So what is "on topic"? Surely threads evolve from the initial statement. As you say, social change can be a divisive topic, but it must be discussed openly and freely.

Cheers
Stuart

[Solitarian]

I love the Sunday funnies
:rofl::rofl:

[el_draco]

Frankly, I don't give a stuff what anyone does in their private lives as long as it doesn't hurt or impinge on the rights of others or damage the environment. However, I am sick to death of individuals like this who see it as some kind of bragging right to call themselves "gay"; or is he just trying to get approval for something that causes many people complete revulsion.

I don't have a need to tell everyone else my sexual orientation and I don't give a stuff what he does in his private life BUT I don't want, or need, to know about it either. :shrug:

[julianh72]

Absolutely!

My first response when Tim Cook "outed" himself was "So what?" Why is this news?

Some of the homophobic responses in what I would consider to be an intelligent and informed forum such as this explain precisely why it is unfortunately still necessary for gay role models to go public.

[gts055]

Saddens me to read this thread. Astronomy brings us together but so much friction caused by those who appear to have little appreciation for the battle endured by many minority groups. Those who don't conform to the narrow minded "normal" box are ostracized. I agree with the views of Steffen, Strongmanmike and Jenchris. A greater tolerance and acceptance for individuality and free expression would make for a much nicer world. Mark

[el_draco]

In my experience, any comment that does not conform with political correctness gets you labelled a red neck, or worse. If minorities, including homesexuals, want to put it out there, then these minorities should be prepared for comment under the "free expression" clause. In this, and many other countries, it is illegal to express an alternative view about homosexuality. So much for free expression.

In this case, I don't need or want to know what anyone else does in their private lives and I feel justified in stating that and challenging those who seek to push their cause, or defend it.

Having said that, I reserve the right NOT to offer my opinion on the sexual orientation of someone else, or my own beliefs on the matter.

I would also ask the question, "What is normal" I haven't met one of those yet. They must be a very small minority. :shrug:

[doppler]

Old men sitting outside, in the dark all night, on their own. Now there is a minority group that most would think is definitely not normal.

[el_draco]

OLD? You talkin about me?? ;)

[OzStarGazer]

Aren't we a minority too? Most people think that being interested in astronomy is weird... :(

[PCH]

If nature intended for the night to be dark and the day light, then that's normal and it isn't for us to try to interfere with that.

If nature intended for the poles to be full of ice, then it's not for us to interfere with that either. And when we do, like we are right now in this example, then all he'll breaks loose and we all realise what idiots we've been not to see the danger signs earlier.

And if nature decides that for the human race to procreate 'normally' it must include a man and a woman to further the species.

Anyone who says different is deceiving themselves.

I'm not saying that they don't have rights and should be treated with respect in other facets of life. But I AM saying, it isn't normal for a child to be brought up by two men or women.

And it's not my opinion, so (Stuart) it's no use labelling me a bigot! - it's a fact of nature and there's no denying that.

[doppler]

At least we don't need to seek approval (outside our peer group).

Although everyone thinks that we are a pretty cool bunch (briefly) when there is an eclipse or bright comet around.




I am no spring chicken my self, my daughter thought it was a funny analogy but she is part astronomer and understands these things. :lol:

[rrussell1962]

Those of us that are heterosexual make a public statement of our sexuality every time we mention our wife, partner, children without any fear of being ridiculed or abused. We do it every time we show affection in public without fear of ridicule or abuse. Sadly many people are not in that position.

As for nature intending night to be dark - I shall try to remember that when I get home tonight and am tempted to turn the light on.

[jenchris]

In some cultures, it is normal for children to be brought up to puberty by the females of the 'tribe'
Your point of view of this is slanted by western norms.

[xelasnave]

What is normal?
Much of human behaviour is arguably...not normal.
Is deviation from normal to be regarded with suspicion?
Normal is mostly a personal standard.
Good luck to Apple and their CEO
Good luck to good parents whoever they are.

[OzStarGazer]

Edit:
I am trying to post a link that is automatically edited/changed when I post it so it does not work..... (The female word for gay is automatically changed to ********)

Just search in Google for famous gay people + Wikipedia.

[rat156]

So this includes or excludes couples where one partner is infertile? I'm confused.



NO, you are saying that "all I can say is that when a pair of guys or a pair gals get together and want to raise kids, any support I may have had for their rights stops right there". So you would like to take away, what you have conceded in your original statement, is one of their rights. You can't have it both ways, you can't say that you don't support their right without meaning that you would like to see it taken away.

Sort of like if I said that I don't support your right to free speech, wouldn't that necessarily mean that I would like you to shut up? I use this as an analogy only, of course you should be able to express your opinion. You should also own up to the fact that it's your opinion.



See above re it IS your opinion. If you espouse a bigoted viewpoint I will call you a bigot. You have aired what I, and many others here, have deemed to be a bigoted viewpoint, hence the label. I also notice that you didn't complain about being labelled homophobic, is this somehow less offensive to you?

What is a "fact of nature"? Aren't we, as a species, changing the rules all the time? In this case I think that you've mistaken a "fact of nature" for a norm of society, and only our society really, there are many other societies where other than the physical act of copulation the male is superfluous to the rearing of children. As none of can remember the moment of conception, what does it matter if you are brought up by two men, two women or one of both, as long as they are loving and caring?

Cheers
Stuart

[csb]

Where is this trend of accepting any lifestyle that some people want to live, going to lead us?

Men are already starting to wear womens' skirts in public. Wearing makeup is being promoted as normal for straight men (who are not artists).

We will have issues of cross dressers using their own preference of toilet, male or female.

It will become difficult to know who we are talking to or forming a friendship with - early courtship stage only to find the woman is actually a man (perhaps a homosexual crossdresser or a surgical transvestite).

There are many issues that this trend will bring about. And this is not just to do with sexual orientation, there are other lifestyles and personal expressions that are put forward as people's rights which will cause legal/social issues.

The world is becoming a very confusing place. I think society really does need moral/ethical/social standards to function. The right to live whatever lifestyle you choose, because this is my right, is not a true standard that allows for society to function.

[Kunama]

I agree that there must be moral/ethical/social standards that guide us as a society but these standards should not restrict an individuals right to choose their own lifestyle so long as that choice by them does not harm others, nor disadvantage or corrupt minors too young to fend for themselves. Nor should one's lifestyle choice be detrimental to the enjoyment of life by others.

As for men wearing skirts, well the Scots have been doing it since the 16th century, Indian men have worn mundus for centuries, Fijians take pride in the Sulus. I guess it has the advantage of keeping the crown jewels cool. :thumbsup: :D

Perhaps the western men are just catching up. :shrug: Personally I prefer my lycra cycling knicks :hi:

[el_draco]

Yep, Tend to think that having the right to do whatever you want is a major reason why we are in trouble on soooo many levels. We are becoming a species of "individuals" who do do whatever we want even if its at the expense of the environment, someone else or society in general.... :rolleyes:

[big_dav_2001]

My question to you is 'So?'

In what way does you walking past a man wearing a skirt or makeup have any affect on you, your family, your job, your lifestyle, or any number of things we as a society think of as 'success factors'?

How does a transgender person entering a public bathroom have any effect on your life? Are you worried that standing at a urinal for 30seconds next to a man in a dress will make you gay?

If you're forming a friendship with a person, what does it matter what their 'natural' gender is/was? Does that make then unworthy of friendship? Does it make them a bad person because they made the choice to be true to themselves?

If you are willing to segregate someone based on what they wear, or what genetals they may have, irrespective of wether or not they are a good person, you are just as bigoted as several of the other people who have commented on this thread.

Davin

[jenchris]

What in God's name is a surgical transvestite?????
Is that someone who has a dress sewn onto them.....???
If you mean a transsexual who has had a sex change, then your education or lack of it is affecting how you reach a vallid response.
A transsexual has to jump through a lot of hoops before they get any surgery.
A lot more than you did before you got to make babies..

[csb]

My point is that these things are a sign of society of individuals doing what they want with no limits.

There are many issues that are already rising because we are making a world that has no standards or limits.

Jennifer, please cease your emotional tirades over spelling errors or use of the wrong terminology.

[rat156]

What? Like this...
http://viewerscommentary.files.wordpress.c om/2011/11/braveheart-mel-gibson.jpg

or this ...

https://lostemplariosysuepoca.files.wordpre ss.com/2014/05/1.jpg?w=500&h=212

Despite many indications otherwise we have progressed past the 1950's, though clearly some further than others.

Cheers
Stuart

[csb]

Excuse me, those weren't pics of men in women's skirts.

[torana68]

I lived in Kings Cross for a few years, not much bother's me, been all over the world see all sorts of things, but those guys are scary :)

[Solitarian]

Who, these guys

[big_dav_2001]

This is a photo of me 10 years ago embarrassing my sister at her 21st birthday party... My question again is "So??"

I guess in your eyes, this makes me gay?? Or perhaps I should just be arrested because in a man in a skirt in a public place??


It's small-minded views such as yours that make it near impossible for members of the gay community to be accepted as part of society. Because of views like that, gays and *******s feel the need to 'come out' rather than just be accepted as another person who is as free to sleep with someone they love as any heterosexual person. Personally, I don't care in the slightest who a person choses to sleep with, a good bloke is a good bloke regardless of who he is attracted to. Who am I (or you) to say their entire beliefs/morals/values/dress sense is wrong, just because they don't conform to standardized social perceptions of 'normal'?

(For the record, it was a "pimps and ho's" theme party, I decided to go against the grain :)... My dad agreed to pay for my drinks the entire night, as long as every drink was bought at the bar on the opposite side of the club from our function room)

Davin

[torana68]

well maybe them too but mostly my distant Scotish relatives.

[Screwdriverone]

Being Gay is no longer a "disease" to be caught or a result of upbringing etc.

The fact that someone has the courage to openly declare their sexuality to the world should be applauded rather than be met with comments like "who cares" or "keep it to yourself". In fact I am glad people think to themselves: "who cares" because it shows a level of acceptance in that statement that being gay is becoming accepted rather than being reviled as it used to be.

I honestly don't care if you are gay, *******, straight, racist, homophobic, intolerant or bigoted. You have every right to be who you are and express your opinion.

What I object to is ANYONE who puts anyone else down or views others as "abnormal" because they are not the same as they are, or don't believe what they themselves believe.

Fullstop.

If you are different to me, then so what? I am a male, 44 year old straight man with a wife and three boys, who are 14, 18 and 20.

If any of my sons declared to me that they were homosexual, it wouldn't make me love them any less. It is their right as a human being to be, act and live any way that they like. If they wanted to raise kids in such a relationship, then I would encourage that as I believe that children can be loved as much by two men or two women just as much as a man and a woman in a parental role. If anyone said otherwise, then I would fight for their rights with everything I had.

If you don't agree with me, then I don't care. You have every right to have an opposing opinion.

I hope that today and in the future, that if I see ANYONE in the street being discriminated or abused by anyone else because they are different, whether it is because they are gay, *******, a different colour, male, female, of a different race, religion, mentally challenged or even if they are old, or infirm, then I would come to their defence and stand up for their rights to exist as a human being and exist as a PERSON who has their own beliefs, rights and expectations to be treated with respect by others, no questions asked.

Until EVERYONE thinks this way, then we will have conflict online, in the world and on the streets, simply because not everyone can understand that it is everyone's basic human right to be different than the person sitting next to you.

The bottom line is this: I am an individual, who has every right to believe what I want to believe. If my opinion or belief differs from you, then I WILL NOT impose this onto you, out of respect for you. Just like I would expect YOU not to impose your beliefs onto me.

Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe, their actions, based on those beliefs, is how they are judged by others.

Chris

[LewisM]

I could care less about homosexuals, melanin-enriched people, Asians, Muslims, Catholics, straights, French, Canadians, morbidly obese, chronically depressed or even Americans and so on ad infinitum.... just so long as they do not touch or hurt me and my family nor try to openly influence WITHOUT consent in any way, I am more than happy to let them live their lives the way they want, and they should respect my decisions too - and so it should be.

The minute their ideals are openly shoved down people's throats is when my hackles get's raised - be it door to door religion, gay mardi-gras, American 4th of July... :) I thankfully do NOT watch TV anymore, so even less exposed to the rhetoric and propaganda.

Live and let live, but hurt me and/or my family and prepare to pray to whoever you believe in.

I just don't get this Coming Out stuff. Just shut your damned mouth and live your own life. I don't go around screaming to the media "I am straight, have a wonderful wife and 2 great kids and successful" - I don't need to, because I believe in myself and the sanctity of my family.

[el_draco]

Spot on mate...

[tonybarry]

I used to also think "So what ? " when it came to the gay folk and their struggles. Something along the lines of "keep it to yourself mate."

Then I had the chance to converse with a few gay blokes who told me their stories. Sounded horribly like what happened to black people in America in the 1800's - 1900's, or Jews in Germany before the war, or women before they got the vote and maybe after ...

I think that when we treat each other as we'd like to be treated ourselves ... we'll be ready to be called a civilisation.

Regards,
Tony Barry

[csb]

Davin, I would say your views are small minded. Open your mind and try to see what the future holds in a too liberal society.

I believe gay people have the same rights as everybody else and that those rights needed to be enforced to make sure they stand.

[xelasnave]

It is a pity that domestic violence could not be addressed with the same passion as runs thru this thread.
I believe one murder per week in Australia.
I must check that figure as surely it must be incorrect.
Nevertheless domestic violence is a problem we seem to ignore.

[torana68]

no more or less than any other people's rights

[Octane]

Alex,

That figure is indeed correct.

H

[xelasnave]

Yes one a week.
The only ones on the news..the transsexual case and the tragedy where the whole family died.
I guess it is so normal no one cares

[Stardrifter_WA]

Homosexuality is a not a choice in most cases, as that is the way nature made them, so your statement has no credibility. It doesn't make one less loving and nurturing either.

I know some children who were bought up in a loving same sex relationship. The children were the biological fathers to a failed marriage. Prior to his marriage failure, he was living a lie, is that supposed to be good for the family? It wasn't! These children are now grown, successful and well adjusted, and living "normal" lives. But then, who is to say what is normal.

Paul, I absolutely defend your right to your opinion, absolutely. However, if you are going to make statements on a open forum, then expect people to judge those statements, based on their own view of morality.

My opinion is that is I agree with Stuart that your views are ill informed and bigoted. However, you are who you are and are entitled to your view.

Cheers Peter

[rat156]

Yes Alex, indeed a tragedy, as is the suicide rate, the way people with mental illness are treated etc. etc. etc.

But, having said that, it's still better than the situation years ago. As long as we see continual improvement we should applaud every effort.

Cheers
Stuart

[xelasnave]

We have our war on terror, our war on drugs, our war on poverty ..could we not have a war on domestic violence?
What is wrong with our society that accepts domestic murder as a matter less important than terrorism or drugs.
Imagine if terrorists killed one Australian per week.
We condemn honour killings overseas yet ignore this sore festering in our culture..makes us hypocrits.

[MortonH]

Those who complained about Tim Cook publicising his sexuality might stop to think for a moment about the attitude to gay people outside our "western civilisation". From the BBC today:

A court in Egypt has sentenced eight men to three years in prison for appearing in a video alleged to show a gay marriage.

All eight had denied charges of inciting debauchery and offending public morality.

The video, which was posted to YouTube in September, shows two men exchanging rings on a boat in the Nile.

Though homosexuality is legal in Egypt, it remains a taboo. Police raids on gay venues have risen in recent months.


A large proportion of the world still doesn't accept homosexuality as even legal, let alone "normal". So the CEO of Apple coming out publicly sends a message to the entire planet. Hopefully it might be a small step towards eventual acceptance in countries that deny people the basic rights that we take for granted.

[jenchris]

There's no need to carry forward a disgraceful attitude just because our parents knew no better and taught you poor values.

[rocco57au]

I agree with you Col... words that are very clear for those who understand the true meaning of what you say but unfortunately, the ways of this world have blinded far too many people to be capable of differentiating between what is moral and what is immoral... In saying that, it is NOT for me to judge anyone for their "choices" in life but I will say that I do not have to agree or be sympathetic to their cause:shrug:!
That is ALL i have to say!

[julianh72]

Ummmm.. Yes, you just did, in this very post!

[AndrewJ]

A lot of the "planet" doesnt care.
They just want to live their lives their way, without outside interference, and resent outsiders telling them what to do.

Andrew

[el_draco]

The basic rights we take for granted are based on our beliefs or what we are forced to accept by our so called leaders. Other countries are entitled to their own beliefs and we have no right to try and impose our values on them. If "western values" were anything to brag about, then maybe we could comment but the behaviour of the west is as despicable as many other non-western countries and itrying to enforce our values is a significant contributor conflict in the world.

[LewisM]

Oh, that was so VERY insightful and useful.

All your "insight" does is create an asymptotic situation. Maybe "Contextual example" needs to be discussed.

Mark Twain's quote regarding arguments is so very apt here.



.

[MortonH]

I'm only referring to the basic right of everyone to live without prejudice.

I'm not suggesting the "west" is perfect, far from it, but we've come a long way from the days of blatant discrimination based on race, orientation, etc. Other countries are on the same path but are further behind. And while I agree that we shouldn't impose our ideologies on others, that doesn't mean that people in those countries can't take inspiration from the West to further their own struggles.

[MortonH]

We're not telling them what to do. We're showing them what the people they persecute are capable of achieving.

[N1]

Paul, I'd like to see how you envisage that decision-making process. Because if there is one, HOW COME people wear clothes, drive cars, breed chihuahuas, synthesize drugs, travel to space, contribute to internet forums - just to name a few? Do you honestly believe nature intended for any of this to happen?

Perhaps nature needs to be spoken to.

Or perhaps nature didn't intend anything, and things just happen?

Perhaps the actual self-deception is in saying that nature "intended" anything? Possibly because some people can't stand, or comprehend, the thought of there being no purpose on the greater scheme of things?

[jenchris]

Given the hassle and social outcasting, I don't think anyone would want to be GLBTI.
I know no one thinks it is a choice or a lifestyle.
I spent some time on a counselling course that was so outdated that they still taught Freudian psycho sexual c**p. Even they admitted that it is hardwired into us.
By admitting that, there is no way that it can be listed as an aberration.

[PeterEde]

Last week we were discussing over population and here we are today discussing the artificial creation of life for infertile people be they hetro or gay.
Does no one see the hypocrisy in this argument?

We are the creators of our own demise. If you believe in global warming then you have to believe over population is part of the problem.

So why are we artificially creating life.?

as stated being gay is normal. Them not having children in a natural way is normal. So why are we allowing them to have children by artificial means?

your arguments for allowing same sex to have children is flawed.

I do believe we are the problem. Artificially extending life expectancy. Artificially creating life where "god" has said sorry you're not having kids.

Reducing population has to start somewhere. Until we either find a new home. find a cure for mass starvation.

I feel for people who want to be parents but can't. But life is cruel.

People deserve to live their lives as they see fit. They don't need to shout it from the roof tops. Most of us don't care.
But until two women or two men can procreate naturally I say no to children.
Was it fair on the children gay parents to live a lie. People are selfish. Just as leaving children till later in life and having them in your 50's 60's. Poor bloody kids. These people should not be giving IVF either.

Who had parents in their 50's or older when they were young? I know someone like that who was embarrassed to be picked up.
Today we teach kids it's natural to have 2 mummies or two daddies. It's not. Just as it's not natural to be morbidly obese. Stop perpetuating lies for the sake of political correctness

[chiaroscuro]

When a heterosexual couple walks down the street hand-in-hand, past endless advertising billboards showing heterosexual couples hugging, kissing, lying in bed together... no-one bats an eyelid.
But if a gay couple walk down the street hand in hand, the best they can expect is disapproval from many, and the worst they can expect is physical violence - the justification being that they are shoving their "lifestyle" down other peoples throats.
Its only through people being courageous enough to come out, that attitudes have begun to change. And the more high-profile people that do it, the less ignorance and hypocrisy will prevail.

[julianh72]

My comment was not meant as a personal insult, and I apologise if offence has been taken.

The point I was making is that heterosexuals are free to talk about their relationships openly, at any time or place, with no risk of adverse consequences. They can mention their husband, wife or "partner" at work, socially, or when talking to the media, and do so entirely unconsciously, without ever thinking of it as "screaming to the media" about their sexuality.

For a gay person, it is very different - the moment they mention their partner, or the fact that they are involved in a relationship, it is interpreted by some as inviting comment about their sexuality and relationships - especially the media, in the case of anyone with any element of "celebrity" status.

Until we as a society have matured to the point when a gay person can mention their partner without it becoming "news" (just as heterosexuals already do), it is unfortunately still important that some highly-placed gay individuals are courageous enough to "out" themselves.

[jenchris]

http://www.lgbthistorymonth.com/www/gwen-araujo?tab=biography
This case is particularly distressing as it shows up the defense strategy of 'gay/trans panic'
In actual fact these murdering teenagers knew her at school so it was in effect a cover up.

All the people at the party where she was murdered were aware of thebeating and murder ( she was murdered with a shovel)

I know of at least 2 dozen murders a year of teenagers like this.
Do you think GLBTI folks WANT to be different?
I am also aware of a lot of suicides of boys entering puberty who can no longer bear the anguish and end it all.
The parents usually say they had no idea their child was hurting.
They usually lie to save themselves the embarrassment.

[xelasnave]

That is so upsetting.
Humans hurting other humans is just so very wrong.
I look at the cruelty in this world and I dispair.

Minorities need to learn to fight..physically fight.

And that sounds hard on a number of levels particularly when there is a high level of gentle folk who are GAY...deserved capitals ..but teaching a martial art like karate would be great.it is not only helpful for protection but gives confidence.

I said elsewhere I was bullied but could protect myself.
I was not GAY but was neat polite and taken to be sissy.

My mother told me sticks and stones may break my bones..but names will never hurt me..a.d.. my Grandfather taught me how to fight ..so early I don't know when..probably in the cradle knowing my Grandfather. He told me never to start a fight or I would get a flogging but if I ever list a fight someone else started expect a bigger flogging.
I started learning judo jujitsu and boxing at the police boys club...
Being a minority of one I had to throw the second punch so often...I had to tell grandfather each year the details of every fight...they always threw the first punch.
I learned how to duck the first punch.
I am a stronger character than many because of such adversity.
Nevertheless I did not like being called names or having to physically fght so often just because I was some how different.

[xelasnave]

Secondly...the Government should alter the marriage laws...and the church tell a better story...
Personally I would bring back hanging drawing and quartering..meet barbarism with barbarism...give victims respect, power, equality and vengeance via the law.
Twenty years ago it was worse for Gay folk. I had so much business from them simply cause they could see my acceptance whereas the competing were transparently non accepting.
Fortunately this region is accepting of all folk...minorities are the majority around here

[Kunama]

I do believe the attitudes have changed enormously over the past couple of decades. There is, however, a very long way to go until it will be seen by everyone as just normal human behaviour.

I still well remember Australians' attitudes toward us 'Wogs' when we arrived here in 1969. Much of that has certainly improved.

The most deep-seated attitudes unfortunately will never be altered and in my opinion the annual Gay & Les Mardi Gras does nothing to help that.

I have worked and socialised with people who later told me they were gay or les, knowing that made no difference to the opinions I had formed of them. In fact most of the gay people I have known over the years have been more ethical, considerate and in general more honest than many of those who consider themselves "normal".

[xelasnave]

And who said you should not have children at 50...
Best thing ever ..it's like another new better life.

[speach]

Really it shouldn't matter, any more than myself saying I'm heterosexual. But it does, the world is full of bigots and people that believe that their view is the correct one. Look at religion all the fighting and crap that goes on in the name of god. If I had one wish, it would be that ALL religions stop. There is to be NO belief in god at all. god is wiped from our minds. Then we'd only have politicians mess us up, and no one believes them anywhy!

[xelasnave]

The alarming thing is if you get rid of religion what do you replace it with..
It is a great way to keep a majority law abiding..I think there may be folk who would not commit crime because of fear of god as plodded to fear of the law.
Seriously consider having to run the world would you get rid of it.

[RB]

Thank God, you won't get your wish.

:rolleyes:

[xelasnave]

Humans are the problem not their belief in God.
Humans run it and use it to justify their actions.
God real or not gave humans free will.
That means one should take personal responsibility.
Just imagine if we could have humans reach that standard...be so much better.
Still the church must take control of who they control and get with the times..they are pretty backwards in all matter resex..but they could be responsible for many folk having bigoted views

[jenchris]

Religion is a dangerous tool.
It only takes one power hungry preacher to rise in the ranks and all of a sudden,you have no religion just a feudal system.
Read Pillars of the Earth.
Religion also uses a book written by men to show the word of god.
Very suss.
Thankfully the more brutal aspects have been watered down in the west.
But people are still stoned in the middle East.
Interpretation is 9 tenths of the law.

[xelasnave]

It is bad all over.
I often plan utopia ..not many things left ..religion war pollution economic systems politics..but you still have all these humans you have to manage and as bad as it all is I have no idea what you could have in place.Stoning could be good if we used really small stones

[strongmanmike]

:rofl: Absolutely brilliant, sums up all the ridiculous hangups veeeeeery nicely :thumbsup: Thanks for posting.

Mike

[Octane]

lol @ that video.

H

[el_draco]

I don't know. It would be nice to think we have actually progressed but I think in many respects we've just changed "labels". Prejudice is alive and well in the west. We discriminate on a hell of a lot of levels, Age, aesthetic appearance, income, suburb, dress.... you name it.

My wife and I are both highly qualified professionals and we're at the point of selling the lot and living in a shed at our dark site. There's bugger all that western lifestyle has to offer us that we're interested in anymore. In fact... it kinda disgusts me most of the time. The people in power both locally and nationally make me want to vomit and I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would want to emulate our "success"

[xelasnave]

I worked in the divorce court turned me against letting humans live together ... But some have need...sorts turns on religious importance as well for some..I speculate .

[xelasnave]

You goto do it.
Bush dark sky no radio or tv and you do your thing...
It's like jumping off a moving train but it should end well.
I built my place made power got water etc and it is nice

[tonybarry]

In 1806 the British government passed a law that stopped members of the country owning slaves.

Prior to that it was a matter of conscience whether a person owned a slave (or not).

Two centuries later we have come a long way. Now slavery is seen as unacceptable. Women have the vote. And gay folk are no longer forced to hide in the closet (although they are not treated equally as yet).

So i must argue against those who despair.

While progress is slow, I am both pleased and amazed at how much has happened in my life time. How much freedom has come to so many people.

We are not there yet. But it has come so far just in fifty years.

Regards,
Tony Barry

[PCH]

Hey Tony,

On the subject of slavery alone, I recently saw that film "12 Years A Slave", and in a footnote at the end, it said there were currently around 140 million people in slavery around the world - more than at any other time in history.

So we may not be doing as well as you thought - sorry !

[csb]

So true. Guns don't kill, people do.



Unfortunately, true also. Not really surprising though because the church is made of people after all.

[MortonH]

Yes, the progress we've made so far represents only a few small steps in the right direction. But at least we've taken those steps and there is legislation designed to protect minorities in this country. In other parts of the world we could be thrown in jail just for having this debate.

[blink138]

so do you think that if every person in the world had a gun, no one would get killed?................... no my friend, make no mistake guns kill people!
pat

[blink138]

[QUOTE=csb;1130469]So true. Guns don't kill, people do.

so you think that if everybody in the world owned a gun people would not use them to kill another? that is by far the worst and most overworked (american) exscuse for a sick society EVER!!.................... make no mistake friend, guns do kill people!!
pat

[csb]

Pat, why such an argumentive tone?

You seem to misunderstand my use of the cliche. It was to highlight what xelasnave said - religion is not the problem, people are.

(So, guns do not kill without someone to pull the trigger. If we had similar laws to USA then gun use and death would probably increase.)

[el_draco]

The legislation you speak of is social engineering. If I speak my mind in such a way that it is contrary to the political pressure, I would lose my job in 10 minutes and could be heavily fined or imprisoned.
Progress? Nope.

[jenchris]

Spears don't kill people.....
Inanimate objects do not by definition have a life of their own.
I owned various guns of many calibres; not one managed to pull its own trigger whilst loaded and pointed at someone.
Though I did manage to feed myself and my family.
Whilst in the services, I was qualified to the highest level with 9mm and 308.


Being shot is a great deterrent when you try to rob someone.
In Australia we are lucky to have a peaceful population.
This may not last. Keep you fingers crossed.

[chiaroscuro]

Laws reflect the the evolution of attitudes in society, and if you want to call that social engineering, then so be it.
But I, for one, am all for it if it means that people no longer feel the "have the right" to inflict racial abuse on public transport, or beat up gays.
No-one is going to lose their job for arguing against a law they feel is unjust, but you deserve to lose your job for vilifying someone because of the sexual orientation, race, religion, etc.. The right to free speech does not extend to vilifying anyone.

[LewisM]

Spot on.

When guns are removed entirely from a society, people adapt to use what they need to use to get the "job" done - there have been some absolutely abhorrently sickening murders where guns were not involved including sticks, rocks, knives, fists... There was a young girl recently here bludgeoned and tortured to death with a tree branch, after that tree branch was first used to inanimately rape her. IF there was a gun involved, at least her death may have been quick and less torturous.

Saying guns kill is the same as saying a spectacle frame can kill - both still need someone with the "right" mindset to actually perpetrate the crime, both will achieve the "goal".

The statistics on Australian death by firearms is unnaturally skewed BECAUSE of the relative lack of availability of firearms. I did an entire research project at university, involving more than just myself - that PROVED the statistics are skewed - in reality, guns death in Australia is almost exactly equal to that of gun death in the USA taking proportions of population etc into account - it varied by as little - if I recall correctly - as 1.7%, which showed the anti-gun statistics are artificially skewed, and the government "official" figures are too, especially when correlated against the actual state by state forensic records.

What it comes down to is this - the change of gun laws here did VERY VERY VERY little to reverse the trend on crime or suicide by firearm (and a few state Police officials recognise this fact and have OPENLY criticised the erroneous official figures) and only served the purpose of increasing revenue for the states and territories. Firearm ownership is UP (legal ownership and illegal ownership). Death by firearms remains steady.

What it boils down to is, humans will always find a way to hurt another human.

[Renato1]

[QUOTE=blink138;1130480]

Switzerland - every adult male of service age has a high powered assault rifle in his house by law. When they are passed the age that they are required to keep a rifle, they can elect to keep it or hand it back.

I felt especially safe driving around Switzerland.
Regards,
Renato

[MortonH]

Fair points, but it's far easier to kill someone with a gun than with a knife or a stick. You can shoot someone from a distance, almost like you're playing a video game. And you can shoot multiple people very quickly. Very different to walking up to someone and stabbing them.

[tonybarry]

Hi Paul,

Yes, we are not there yet. But now slavery is seen as a crime, rather than being OK.

That is a big step forward.

In the same way, being gay was once seen as a crime. Now it's no longer criminal to be gay (at least in Australia). We're gradually getting there. To be sure, the road is littered with corpses, and that is a horrible tragedy. But we owe it to those who died for no good reason to press on.

Regards,
Tony Barry

[OzStarGazer]

That's very true, but I am a girl for example, and not huge (say the size of the Minogue sisters?) and I have often mentioned I would like a house and a garden (I now live in an apartment with a balcony), BUT I also worry about possible robbery/assault etc. if I have a house, particularly if some criminal notices me in the garden with a telescope at 3am!!! :( I would feel better if I could have a gun even if I would most probably never have to use it. I don't think I could stab an intruder for example... Maybe I should start a self-defense course...

[MortonH]

But if we go the US route the robber will have a gun too...

[OzStarGazer]

I know, but at least we would be sort of equal... As it is a robber would most probably be stronger than I am, so he could use his arms, fists etc. to bash me...

[MortonH]

Understand your concern but I'd rather we used things like loud personal alarms, capsicum spray, etc before arming everyone.

And your gun is no use if he sneaks up on you.

Jeez, how did a thread about Tim Cook coming out turn into a debate over gun control and personal safety?

Clear skies and safe observing!

[torana68]

gee hasnt this one gotten lost :) but I suppose licenced firearm owners are a minoritie group often misunderstood and have to put up with being ostrized by the press and Government. They are marked as "persons of interest" on Police computers..... but perhaps this is way off the original post's intentions.

[rrussell1962]

The thread has certainly ranged far and wide. But it has been a very interesting discussion on personal and civic rights and responsibilities. Some very interesting and thought provoking points have been made. It would be nice to think we could all have the same discussion over a beer without coming to blows!

[h0ughy]

;) sorry but not all beers are made equal

and you would be discriminating against the white wines, red whines, green wines and fortified wines - they are the one to watch out for. remember when a beer and a lemonade get together they make a shandy :D then it also stands to say what cider do you support?:help:

[FlashDrive]

Oooooh....!! :eyepop: now it's really started .. :lol: :lol:

Col...

[rrussell1962]

Look, if people want to drink rose sparkling wine in the privacy of their own home - it's none of my business. Just don't expect me to drink it with them.

[julianh72]

I think Sparkling Rose fanciers should feel free to order their favourite tipple at a Public Bar without being exposed to ridicule; indeed, I would extend that as a basic human right for ALL alcoholic beverages.

(Although I have to draw the line at people who choose those weird fruit-flavoured beers! At a recent session with some mates at the Belgian Beer Cafe, a young woman came up to the bar and declared that the raspberry beer she'd just had was quite nice, but asked the barman "Do you have anything with a bit more passion-fruit?" I almost choked on my Chimay Bleu - people like that should be deported - it's positively un-Australian!)

[rrussell1962]

Take it easy with the Chimay Bleu - it needs a warning "not to be taken internally!"

[csb]

Now we're getting back on topic! ;)

[blink138]

thems is fightin' words buddy ha ha!
a person has not truly lived until they have had the pleasure of a Charles Heidsieck Vintage Rose (1985 in my case)
a VERY superior drink indeed!
pat

[AstralTraveller]

:rolleyes: Another undeserved slur. I've never known a gay person who conforms to that 'limp wristed' stereotype. All have drunk normal hops beer and/or full-bodied reds. I'm not saying that 'camp as a row of tents' types don't exist but I'd guess they are in a tiny minority. Sorry to confuse you.

[LewisM]

Wife and I enjoy getting stupidly drunk and reminiscing with Rose - it was our elope wedding bottle of choice - the largest, cheapest Italian Rose we could find, and we even managed to get my 87 year old Grandmother drunk too! :)

I'd rather Rose than Red any day - Red and I don't see eye to eye histamine wise, and it elevates my core temperature WAY too high too.

[julianh72]

To paraphrase Monty Python:
"This is not a beer for drinking. This is a beer for laying down and avoiding."

(Actually, Chimay Bleu is my all-time favourite beer - after only 6 or 7 pints, I'm anybody's!)

[FlashDrive]

Hey..... keep it clean :lol:

[csb]

Now we move on to political correctness. Or perhaps you are just feigning offence to make your point?

There are quite a few flamboyant types of people out there, at work or just passing by. Not sure if most gay men fit the stereotype or not either but thats not the topic. And it has been said before "I don't care".

And I don't avoid them at work. I work in healthcare so there are many gay people that I work with. And I could name some that would enjoy and laugh at the fruit comment - it was a very light-hearted comment.

[chiaroscuro]

fyi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYx4Bc6_eE

[csb]

Interesting. Of course, political correctness does have influence on discussion - it can stymie discussion or open discussion. Probably it actually opens discussion because more people are likely to join in.

Anyway, I actually mentioned political correctness because feigning offence as a tool to back up your point is usually easily seen for what it is.

[jenchris]

feigning offence as a tool...
That's some confession.......lol

As a final word from me, being part of a minority is like being locked out of your home on a cold night. It's not a static situation, because even standing still, you get colder and eventually lose the will to go on.

[csb]

Jenchris, actually I'm not sure what your remark means?

[This post has been mostly redacted with apologies to jenchris - too embarrassing]

[rat156]

And then we have people like this ...

link (http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/news-features/white-ribbon-australia-is-in-a-battle-against-a-mens-rights-group-who-has-high-jacked-their-name-20141104-3jl82.html)

Although a valid point is raised, that there ARE male victims of domestic violence, do we really think that it demands equal footing with the female victims?

Cheers
Stuart

P.S. Great debate everyone, little to no name calling, a real pleasure to be able to air an opinion in these fora and not have the thread closed because one or two people get carried away.

P.P.S. Great job mods in letting this thread meander along.

[jenchris]

CSB
No I was not being nasty, there isn't a nasty thought in my head.
I was joking about the punctuation making the phrase awkward to interpret .

I've no idea about anyone's leanings, I don't look for indicators.
If you're gay , straight, trans or furry makes no difference to me.
I think you're all a nice bunch and I'm proud to know you.
Some of you may have opinions or beliefs that are not the same as mine, but that's fine too.
We're all entitled to be wrong sometimes lol.

[xelasnave]

Stuart.
All violence is criminal and ALL victims deserve justice.
Our society and culture harbours too much acceptance of violence..movies, sport presented as the acceptable option ..
Maybe they should put something in the water sedate everyone .

[AstralTraveller]

[QUOTE=blink138;1130480]



People tend to think of guns being used against another person. This overlooks their use for suicide.

"Opportunity is another huge influence on whether someone attempts suicide, so much so that Lifeline CEO Alan Woodward says restricting access to the means by which someone might take their own life is the single most effective way to prevent suicide." http://www.abc.net.au/health/features/stories/2014/09/30/4097548.htm

Guns are attractive as a suicide method because they are quick (no time to change your mind), convenient, reliable (no waking up in ICU) and relatively painless (compared to e.g. poisons or trains). I don't have the figures to hand but I believe that limiting access to guns has been shown to lessen suicide rates, probably especially in rural areas. I know there are ways to make gun storage safer (amo separate to the gun, bolt stored elsewhere) but that isn't always done (especially if the gun is in regular use e.g. for shooting rabbits) and the gun owner (and maybe others) can get around these obstacles relatively easily. Given the size of the suicide problem I think this is a real consideration when thinking about gun ownership. I'm pretty OK at the moment but there have been times when I wouldn't have wanted to be near a loaded gun.

[xelasnave]

I can think of at least six around Drake guns in use.
People I personally knew not the wider community

[AstralTraveller]

Do you mean 6 deaths? That's shocking. But 7 Australian suicide each day, so the chance of it affecting every one of us is very high.

[jenchris]

Suicide prevention is a pretty slim excuse to stop lawful use of a firearm.
There's a lot of guns out there that aren't legal.
If I die on the wrong end of one, I shall be haunting Jack Boot Johnny and his successors forever.

[csb]

Probably not. It seems gun suicides are actually a preferred method for some but that a determined person will use other means.

As per Wikipedia: Gun politics in Australia

Immediately following the Buyback there was a fall in firearm suicides which was more than offset by a 10% increase in total suicides in 1997 and 1998.

De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger,[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia#cite_note-35) studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides . . . As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods.

[MortonH]

The number of people contemplating suicide also rose, and continues to do so. If guns were freely available the number of actual deaths would be higher.

[csb]

The number of actual deaths would be higher but this is because suicide by gun has a very high success rate. And suicide by other forms would be lower due to guns being preferred by some.

[csb]

So, guns are not a cause of suicide. And gun availability or control does not markedly affect suicide rates.However constant discrimination can move an individual to such a drastic act.

[blink138]

should there be a question mark or an exclamation mark after your first sentence craig?.............. i would like to know as every body else seems to maybe have the wrong end of just about everything you have posted thus far, and perhaps it may be just your keyboard grammar!
p.s i know i do not use capital letters correctly in any of my posts!
p.p.s if you are serious about your above comments................ well i have a lot more to say!!
pat

[sheeny]

Based on my experience of 20 years in rescue in a country town, I question that. You may think so, as all those I attended did, but I don't agree. You don't need to know the details so I won't go into them. It's not appropriate here.

Al.

[csb]

[Original post deleted with apologies - too embarrassing]

[marki]

ICPC :screwy::shrug::P;):thumbsup:

[csb]

[Original post deleted with apologies - too embarrassing]

[MortonH]

Don't worry, Craig. It's all good.

Here. Have a beer!

:cheers:

[csb]

Cheers, MortonH.

[xelasnave]

We each have our personal reality and you work with what you have.
I did not notice any problems so why don't you share my reality for a while.
I hope I haven't offended you in any way.

[MortonH]

One of the great things about IIS is being able to sample other people's reality :)

[xelasnave]

The main reason I post is so everyone will know there are actually people like me out there.
Craig altered his last post but I read it and offerred comment as he invited.
I hope all is well as it always is here on iceinspace

[jenchris]

Goodness me, you really seem to have a problem with my comment.
I really can't add anything about my reason for making it, not even a particular thought about your previous posts.

As a member of a particularly small minority that has been villified quite enough thank you very much, I'm unlikely to try to hurt someone else, whether they have hurt me or not.

[csb]

So good evening, all is well.

Thankyou to everyone who did not enter into the discussion I proposed. Sorry.

Thanks xelasnave. Amazing how your comments can carry that same sense of ease and tranquil akin to the "awesomeness of it all" feeling I have when viewing the night sky through the telescope.

While checking for discussions and reading the posted comments, I realised the purposelessness of what I was inviting. And the futileness. And embarrassment.

Anyway, I will sleep well tonight. Thankyou for the friendliness that this site is surely known for. Good night.

PS Marki, what does ICPC mean? :prey: :)

[marki]

Glad you asked, its just a silly acronym for Political correctness which can best be defined as a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of poo by the clean end."

And here is another;

noun
1. Bigot: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.


Now there wouldn't be any bigots around here in this enlightened group surely, especially no one who would cast such a slur upon others attempting to offer a different point of view. Hmmm perhaps a case of pot kettle black? I will be back in 12 months to read how you all got on :P.

[csb]

[Original post deleted with apologies- too embarrassing]

[rat156]

As it was me that first used the term bigot in this thread I feel that the situation should be clarified. It was used with reference to a couple of opinions expressed which were of the form "Gay couples shouldn't be allowed to have children, because, for no other reason than they are Gay".

I found this opinion offensive, and, IMHO (and others) it was a display of bigotry. I'm not sure how pointing out that I saw the opinion expressed offensive should count as hypocrisy (pots and kettles comments), at no stage did I try to stop the poster from expressing their views, I merely pointed out that they were unacceptable to many people on the forum and would be challenged.

At no stage did I used the term to describe Craig's comments, in fact I only once replied to a post from Craig, and that was with pictures of guys in kilts and makeup from Braveheart, I'm sure no-one took it seriously.

Once the subject shifted towards the gun debate I turned off. I have little interest in the topic.

Cheers
Stuart

[xelasnave]

Even if one thinks someone deserved to be called a negative name perhaps avoiding doing so is a better option.
Avoid taking or giving offence.
Further there is little to be gained arguing against anothers belief.
All the facts and logic which one presents against a belief will be ignored and so folk become frustrated and frustration leads to personal attack.

And Craig look out thru your scope and you will perhaps agree...we are so insignificant should we really bother letting anything upset our day.

Let's move on.

[chiaroscuro]

I have to disagree on one point - its vital that people express a well-thought out opinion which doesn't resort to ad hominem attacks. Challenging others beliefs is the only way that we can progress - otherwise the majority would still believe in witch-burning, that the earth is the centre of the universe, and that homosexuals aren't worthy of equal treatment in society.
Thats why free speech (without bigotry) should be defended vigorously. Just because many people aren't capable of keeping arguments civilised, doesn't mean we shouldn't still have those arguments.

[xelasnave]

Luke AD Hominum attacks being unnecessary was my point.
I agree with all you say and wish I could have expressed my view as well as you posted.

[torana68]

Your forgetting a few things there, people with mental illness issues won't get a licence for one , or do you mean "if there was no licencing requirements"?. If you could buy a rifle at Coles that could be true but that will never be the case. People who are desperate enough to end their life will do it by one means or another. My ex wife tried electrocution gassing and drugs, she also threatened to crash the family car. What do you propose to remove from society from that list?

[xelasnave]

We should start a gun and or suicide thread.
This thread really should stick to the opening post and directly related issues.
And I know that I have been guilty of wandering off topic on many occasions.

[jenchris]

Well to be honest there's not much we can do about gun control now - they've been controlled without our mandate. Much as they did in UK in 1919 when the Bolshevik Revolution looked like visiting UK.

By the Bye, I bought my .243 in Amart Allsports! (Not far removed from a Coles type store) in Penrith in 1985.
Someone nobbled them quite soon after - another knee jerk reaction from some death.

When you consider cars kill more even if you eliminate accidents.

Back to bigotry.
There's a lot of it about - just read a newspaper about a transsexual and you can bet your life they put the birth sex in there as if they hadn't jumped through any number of hoops to get where they are.
And why is the report in there anyway? - it really has no reason to be news.
Just some journo, short of a decent story, trying to get a rise out of the prejudiced.

Georgina Mayer was a TS woman who became a member of Kiwi Parliament. Looked a lot nicer than Helen Clark too! lol

There's any number of Gay members now which bodes well for the future of tolerance.

Even I am not entirely free of some emotive parts of same sex partnerships. Guys kissing makes me wince a little. Why it should I'm not sure. Just nurture saying it's not visually my thing I guess.

Suicide? Well I'm not in favour except for Euthanasia. It leaves behind too much hurt.

[Hagar]

If the CEO of the biggest company on earth ( I think the Catholic Church is bigger) is proud to be gay why should his announcement mean anything to anyone other than himself. Rallying against bigotry is quite a statement. Your comment and wording could be construed as bigotry or at least patronising at best.
I fail to see why anyone who has an opinion which differs from the vocal minority is construed as a bigot. I always thought we were all entitled to have our own opinions and just like the minorities, entitled to voice them.

[xelasnave]

Jennifer..I don't like to see anyone kissing in public but I am just old and grumpy.

A thread on euthanasia would be interesting.
Off topic but I am prepared for the day it gets too hard to go on...I will sail to Antarctica with a couple of bottles of scotch...problem is if my legs don't improve I won't be able to get onboard....but that's the plan..no funeral costs and the family won't have to worry about selling the boat...

[graham.hobart]

I thought Marki was talking about the IPCC- intergovernmental panel on climate change?!!!:poke::eyepop:?

[PCH]

The way things are going Alex, kissing will be the least of your worries - lol

[rrussell1962]

Xelasnave, will you be saying "I'm just stepping outside I may be some time"?

[PeterEde]

What about some places (UK) not describing kids as boys and girls? Or that they are now going unisex toilets.
the PC correctness is getting out of control. We are males and females. We are boys and girls. Some we born into a body of the wrong sex.
Let them change. Although I read recently a guy had the change but now decides being a woman is a hard life and wants to go back. Someone failed this person.
Who should pay for sex change ops? I know of military people who have had the op at public expense while serving?

[beren]

Aye that sounds the way I want to go as well but it would be a pallet of rum on board, middle finger painted on the stern, tricorn worn and sea shanties playing

[xelasnave]

My boat is not very seaworthy so two bottles should do it...of course I will have a going away party.
Oops more off topic chatter..

[jenchris]

The only person who can diagnose transsexualism is yourself.
If the guy lied to the doctor about his feelings,then he got what he deserved.

There's a lot of hoops to jump through before you get surgery and if he jumped through them then he's probably a really good liar.

Not a decision to be taken lightly.
Costs are mostly born by the patient and there's not much change from 50k

[AstralTraveller]

I can sort of relate to that. I'd seen blokes kissing on TV but seeing it a meter from me was a new experience. It was all over so quick before I'd even had a chance to think 'yuk' I was already thinking 'well, that wasn't so bad'. I was visiting a friend who shared a house with a gay couple. We were sitting at the kitchen table talking to one of the blokes when his boyfriend came in to say good night. He wished us all well then gave his partner a quick good night peck, just like a straight couple would. It didn't hurt a bit - though it will never be a spectator sport :P.

Years later, but still a while ago, when I used to visit watering holes one of my Friday arvo drinking mates was a gay woman. She (and a few others) used to make an early start, I'd get in about 4.30-5.00 but the girlfriend was normally pretty late arriving (if she came at all). When she did there would be the normal 'hello' followed by a little peck - just like I would do with my partner and just as a straight couple who were also regulars in our group used to do. By that time all the bar stools were normally taken so the girlfriend would just stand next to her partner with her arm around her shoulder. I think I noticed it the first time it happened but by the third or fourth time it just didn't register. Getting used to being around gays is really that easy.

BTW can I tell a little story? It don't seem to fit anywhere but is too good to leave out. We are told that you really can't tell someone's sexuality just by looking at them and generally that is true. Sure there are a few blokes about with eye-liner and high heels and a few women with crew-cuts and tank tops (though some of them are straight!) but most gays look absolutely bog standard. I certainly can't pick most of them, especially women. So, what to make of this? A gay bloke I know loves touring on his motorbike (big BMW tourer). So one day he pulls up outside a pub in country Victoria where he is planning to stay the night. There are also a group of women bikers outside the pub and they turn out to be dykes on bikes. They invite him for dinner. Over dinner he was told 'oh yes, we knew you were gay before you even got off the bike'. WTF? He can't work it out and neither can my partner and I. Nothing about his bike, his leathers or helmet look even remotely 'suspicious'. When I first met him I started to wonder after I had talked to him for a couple hours, but even then I wasn't sure. How can you tell by watching someone park a bike??


I don't think anyone supports suicide! Not even the victims. The experts say that no one wants to die - they want the pain to stop and if death is the only option they feel they have left they will resort to that. I can relate to that. If you are after pain relief then a quick, reliable (or at least perceived to be reliable) exit is attractive, more attractive that putting yourself through agony to escape pain. That is why I believe that firearms and mental health problems don't mix well.

[blink138]

they call it "gaydar" and they can generally pick it first go!
pat

[jenchris]

Course you can tell.
You just need to know how to look.
Sometimes hard to tell if a girl is saphic but not usually.

[TrevorW]

History is full of it bisexuality, homosexuality and the like its been around for thousands of years I think the older generation (50 and older) have been influenced by Victorian purity instilled in their parents and religiously inspired morality and political bigotry which has manifested itself as a loathing for those who do not follow what we would consider the norm, and often we feel threatened by their presence subject to questioning our own sexuality, thankfully that prejudice is less apparent in the now generation and hopefully will be lesser in future generations.

[jenchris]

Religion has a lot to answer for eh Trev?
My father was so homophobic that when my brother started using a skin moisturiser said, "you'll be touching men's bottoms next."

Civilisation goes in cycles, from practical to straight laced. We live in an enlightened time, but if you notice the religious groups who are losing control, there is a tightening of the reins.

Leonardo was nearly killed by them. He didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition....
The damage done and the restriction to progress is both astonishing and lamentable.

[Steffen]

"Nobody...", oh never mind :lol:

Cheers
Steffen.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Yep, totally agree. Watch the BBC documentary: The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnAToomzc00

I first heard of the Spanish inquisition being a myth during a lecture at a University.

Cheers Peter