general consensus on a binocular?

["O"]

Hi All,

I am completely new to Astronomy and only at the stage
of choosing a binoculars and skychart.

I have read a bit on several guides on choosing a binocular and
just find myself stuck since there are so many brands.

Is there a general consensus on any good all around binocular?
One that "you can't go wrong with" ?

I would appreciate if anyone could suggest a specific model and make.

I wear glasses and I understand that it will make a difference?

Which are the shops to go to in Brisbane that I can have
a look at both the binoculars and good mounting/tripod?

Thanks,
"O"

[Dennis]

Hello, “O”

Here are some general notes on bino’s that may be of help.

Classification:
Bino’s are classified by the diameter of the (front) lens, called the “objective lens” and their magnification. So,

Magnification and diameter of lens:
7x50 gives x7 magnification with a 50mm diameter objective lens.
8x42 gives x 8 magnification with a 42mm diameter objective lens.
8x24 gives x 8 magnification with a 24mm diameter objective lens.

The 50mm bino will be able to “grab” or “gather” more light as it is bigger than the 42mm and 24mm bino.
x10 magnification can be difficult to hold steady as the image will appear to wobble unless we use a tripod or rest our elbows on a wall or table.

At the eyepiece end – where you look through:
The next important attribute is the “exit pupil”. This is the small circle of light you can see at the eyepiece when holding the bino’s up to the bright sky. Why is the exit pupil important? Well, our physical eyes have an iris that expands in the dark and shrinks in the light. In a healthy young person, the diameter of the iris when fully opened is approx 7mm. In a middle aged adult, it is only 4 or 5 mm due to the ageing process.

For 7x50 bino’s the exit pupil is 50/7 = 7mm (approx).
For 8x42 bino’s, the exit pupil is 42/8 = 5mm (approx).
For 8x24 bino’s the exit pupil is 24/8 = 3mm

Image brightness:
Therefore, the 7x50’s will produce a bright image that will match the aperture of your iris on a dark night.
The 8x42’s will only illuminate the central 5mm of your eye’s 7mm iris aperture.
The 8x24’s will only illuminate the central 3mm of your eye’s 7mm iris aperture.

Eye relief:
This is a measure of how close you will have to place your physical eye to the eyepiece to see a fully illuminated image. If you need glasses to correct your vision, then long eye relief is good. I understand that if glasses are simply for e.g. close up reading, then they need not be worn for looking through bino’s as they are not correcting for optical defects such as astigmatism?

Notes:
WARNING – never, ever look at the Sun through bino’s or any optical instrument – you will be blinded immediately.
Traditionally, 10x50's or 7x50’s are classified as good astronomy bino’s because of their light grasp (50mm) and exit pupil (5mm & 7mm respectively) but they can be heavy and difficult to hold still.

What will you use them for?
If you would like to use the bino’s for bird watching, then models from Leica will typically focus close, to around 3 metres. All round or general purpose bino’s tend to only focus down to maybe 5 to 10 metres.

Shops in Brisbane:
York Optical in Fortitude Valley.
Sirius Optics at Underwood.
Photo Continental at Mt Gravatt.

I’d better stop here as I’m uncertain at your level of understanding and fearful of swamping you with too much stuff.

Cheers

Dennis

[ving]

gee dennis, thats a fairly comprehensive answer!!

"O", theres a guy called robert Bee who has written a book about observing with a small telescope or binos, i cant remember the title but if you are interested i can find out :0

[janoskiss]

Welocme to IIS O!

Well don't know about "general consensus, but I can confidently say that you cannot go wrong with an AOE 50mm HG binocular from www.aoe.com.au for hand held use. Only thing you need to decide is magnification, which is an individual thing: 10x if you can hold it steady enough, or 7x if the 10x gives too much of the shakes. I used to own the 7x50HG (then lost it :() and it is an exceptionally good binocular, as good as brand name units costing 2-3x as much. Of course you cannot go wrong with much more expensive binos from the reputable companies, e.g., Pentax, Nikon, Fujinon.

Tripod mounted binos are a pain to use any more than 40 degrees above the horizon, unless the tripod is designed/modified for binocular astronomy.

[OneOfOne]

I guess the most common size binoculars used would be 7x50's. They are very common and made by many manufacturers. The price and quality will vary tremendously though. If you get cheapies, they will have all sorts of defects - astigmatism, reflections, coma etc - which will make it almost impossible to focus stars into a nice clean dot! They may however, give quite reasonable "terrestrial views". So if you try some out, don't just expect to get good star images from the ones that give a good view of a bulding across the road. The best time to try them out would be if you could shop in the evening after the sun goes down, and walk outside with them.

Alternatively, you could spend a lot of money, and it is not difficult to spend a couple of grand on a pair of binoculars, even 7x50's, you will get excellent optics, but you could have bought a cheaper pair and a pretty nifty telescope. I guess it comes down to how much you want to spend and taking into account the details given in previous replies.

I have a pair of Saxon 11x80s which are OK, they don't give perfect images but they do the job, but even they cost me a couple of hundred last year. The 11x magnification is about the limit for handheld, 7x is pretty easy to hold steady and light enough to hold up for a while.

Like telescopes, steer clear of "department store" binoculars, better to spend money on a reasonable pair than some cheapies that you will come to hate! The major scope manufactures make reasonable binos, like Meade, Celestron in the mid price range. Saxon, Orion etc are cheaper and probably lower quality. If you have lots of money, you could look at manufacturers that are known for their optics, Pentax, Zeiss, Leica etc but then you are looking at lots of money. I would try to not buy a brand that doesn't make other types of "optical" equipment...this will keep you away from most of the cheap and nasty ones.

[Lee]

I've got two pair - both actually from Andrews Communications in Sydney - 10*50 Waterproof (don't know just how waterproof??) and the 20*80 triplets. Both are very reasonably priced, and surprisingly good quality for the price too. I'd go for a pair of 7 or 10 by 50's if I were you - you can easily take them to the football also then!
You really will need a mount for 70-80mm binos.......

[Dennis]

Here is an (old & poor) photo I took showing the different exit pupils of our collection of bino's:

8x24 = 3mm
10x42 = 4.2mm
9x63 = 7mm

Cheers

Dennis

["O"]

Many thanks for all replys!

Denis, very detailed explannation! Will try to head to
York's at lunch time today. Might have a chance to
meet up with u one day since u r in BNE. R u with a local
society? Which is most active society here?

plasmodium, will have a look at those too.

OneOfOne, I'll stay away from the cheapies and department store ones.

janoskiss, those binos look real good... will definitely consider them eventhough i am not much of mail order person and prefer to go to the shops ... guess i will have to change soon with everyone else getting good range and deals by mail order!

ving, any info that will help is welcome!

"O"

[iceman]

Great information, Dennis.. including the photo!

I think that would package up well into a "how to" for bino-buying! You can even collaborate with others (if you want) and gather other information from this thread (and other bino threads).

What do you reckon? Maybe while the paint is drying under the eaves? :D

["O"]

I find that there are many "how to" guides but after reading a few, the scope is still too big. I feel that a few beginner like myself need more specific advice, hence the "consensus" sort of things. Something of this line:

1. Good all around binos at reasonal price ( $100- $300 )

Brand x,y,z, model such and such .. all are accepted as OK ... choose one!
The choice then is individual but at lease these are not lemons.

2. If you are on budget ( under $100)

Brand and model such and such is recommended.

3. If you want to spend more ....


BTW, is Celestron a "department store" brand? I see them at Dick Smith and Aust. Geographic but also at reputable optical stores.

"O"

[Dennis]

Hello O

The standard recommendation is "don't buy before you try".

That is, meet up with a local club (I am a member of the Brisbane Astronomical Society) and have a look through a selection of bino's and weight up the pros and cons in the field. You will then have a clearer set of personal requirements that you can use to select the best bino for you.

Cheers

Dennis

[janoskiss]

I believe York Brisbane is no more.
I know what you mean about mail order vs walk-in shop, but in practice what's on offer in local shops is very limited unless perhaps one happens to live in Sydney.

AOE are excellent to deal with. Their customer service, both pre and after sales is second to none. I bought quite a few things from them in the past and they've never let me down. Their advice is always spot on too.

[Dennis]

Wow - when did this happen? I was in there 2 weeks ago and they were at the Qld Astrofest just over 4 weeks ago?

Cheers

Dennis

[janoskiss]

Maybe I'm wrong but I remember reading on the forums that Melbourne is the only store left.

[Dennis]

Hello O

I just 'phoned York Optical in Brisbane and spoke with Gregg so they are very much open and in business. I mentioned your interest in binoculars and Gregg said mention that "Dennis from the BAS" recommended York as a potential supplier and they would be able to give you a discount.

I purchased my Celestron C9.25 from there so it seems they remember me. I understand that they stock Fujinon (premium quality) and Celestron binoculars, but be sure to check other brands too, in particular Photo Continental at Mount Gravatt have a range of Pentax, Nikon, Zeiss and Leica amongst others, and I have always found them to be knowledgeable and helpful too.

Cheers

Dennis

[Dennis]

Okay Mike, I'll give it a go. I'll write the general vanilla stuff and then circulate the article to others who would like to collaborate on this project, for contributions and peer review.

Cheers

Dennis

[iceman]

^^ Legend!!

["O"]

Hi All,

After much looking around for my first binocular, taking all things as quality, value for money, local availability, and a newbie's needs in mind, here is my conclusion:

Pentax 10x50 PCF WP

I am not saying this is the best binocular you can get but would I be wrong to say that this would be one of those binocular "a newbie can't go wrong with" ?

The listed price at photocontinental is $299. ? OK

I wouldn't mind spending more if there are clear and significant differences in quality in the more expensive models. I am also keeping in mind that extra money can be put toward a very good quality/higher power mounted binocular later on.

Thanks,
"O"

[janoskiss]

Pentax is a nice choice. Just make sure it's not an older model (they tried to do that to me in a camera shop once with a Pentax 12x50, i.e., sell me an out-of-production model without telling me).

I think you want PCF WP II not PCF WP. (John B would know.) At $300 it's overpiced too. Shop around or try here:
http://centre.net.au/Pentax_10x50_PCF_WP_II_Binoculars_0 007KY.html

I bought binos and other stuff from centre.net.au before and they have always been good to deal with, with delivery usually the next day.

[janoskiss]

btw. the only thing I don't like about that Pentax is the 50 degree FOV. For a 7x50 that would be okay, but for 10x50 I'd want at least 60 degrees, even if the outer 10 degrees is not as sharp as the centre. A 5 degree true field is fairly small and makes star hopping more difficult.

This is probably more like it (65 degree fov):
http://centre.net.au/Celestron_10x50_Ultima_DX_Binocular _0008RT.html

I'd try to get a good price on that one from www.aoe.com.au

[ausastronomer]

Hi,

IMO those 10X50 Pentax PCF WP are a very good choice and you will be hard pressed to do better for under $300. I have owned 2 pairs in this series 8x40's and 16x60's and like them a lot. Unlike Steve, I think you will find the 5.0 deg FOV adequate. These binos are very sharp over 85% to 90% of that narrow FOV and useable to the EOF. Binoculars costing less than about $800 may offer a wider FOV but will not be useable over the entire FOV. They may be useable over 70% of a wider FOV. I prefer a narrower sharp FOV when observing with binos.

FWIW you can source these for about $250

http://y2k.centre.net.au/Pentax_10x50_PCF_WP_II_Binoculars_0 007KY.html

CS-John B

["O"]

Thanks, Steve and John. I guess at least I now know a few entry models
which are definitely not a lemon and are at reasonable cost.

1. Pentax PCF
2. Celestron Ultimate
3. AOE


While I am at it, is there much more advantage of more expensive model?
How is http://centre.net.au/Pentax_10x50_DCF_SP_Binoculars_0007 KY.html ?

What would be a good choice under $2K? Or not worth spending the money?

Also where can I get a binocular stand with counter weight? My idea of is to watch the sky in reclining position as I get sore neck real quick.

Thanks,
"O"

[ausastronomer]

"O"

Stay away from lower to mid priced roof prism binoculars which those Pentax roof prisms are. At almost $1,000 they sound expensive but for roof prism binos thats only mid level. Because of the internal design of roof prism binoculars the images are not as bright as porro prism binoculars, unless you buy the absolute top end roof prism binoculars from people like Leica, Zeiss, Nikon, Swarovski, Canon etc.

Regardless, I think you're better staying with a porro prism binocular because they cost a lot less to make hence buy and give brighter images which is important for night time observation. ie. A top shelf porro prism binocular will cost a lot less than a top shelf roof prism binocular.

A beginner may not pick all the advantages of an expensive binocular over a cheap binocular but most will be apparent given a little time. Generally with optics you get what you pay for and if you can afford a good pair of binoculars it is worth buying them IMO.

There are several excellent porro prism binoculars suitable for astronomy available in 10x50 size. I don't have time to post the links at the moment as I am about to leave for work but will amend this post later today with some links to some suitable higher end porro prism binoculars.

CS-John B

[Dennis]

Hello,

Here is an excerpt from an IIS article on binoculars that I will be co-authoring, along with anyone within the community who would like to collaborate. As John is rushing off to work, I thought I would post this draft, along with the attached image, to save him having to explain in detail the difference between Porro and Roof Prism design.

Start excerpt:

Porro Prism Design
Porro-prism binoculars were first designed in the mid-1800s by an Italian inventor, Paolo Ignazio Pietra Porro. His concept of placing two right-angled prisms in each barrel of a set of binoculars is still used today. Porro-prism binoculars are the stereotypical angled-body binocular design. When standing on their barrels, or hanging from a strap around someone's neck, Porro-prism binoculars appear to form an M shape.

Porros focus by relying upon an external focus wheel which, when turned, causes the eyepieces for each side to slide forward or backward along an external tube. This type of focusing allows for sharp images of close objects, as well as precise focusing on objects as close as six feet.
Advantages

Less expensive.
Good optical quality.
Greater stereoscopic, or three-dimensional view.
Brighter images due to greater transmission of light.
Fast focusing.
Close focusing.
Wider field of view (the amount of area you see when looking through the binoculars).
For low-to-mid-range priced binoculars, Porro-prisms offer the best value.

Disadvantages

Less compact, not as comfortable to hold for long periods, may be less rugged than roof prisms
Weight (the better transmission of light is due to large prisms, which are weighty) and bulkiness, which can make Porros hard to use for small-handed folks.
The external focusing mechanisms of many Porros can make for less durable binoculars, that is, ones that can be more easily jarred out of alignment.

Roof Prism Design
Roof prisms binoculars are more compact. However, to achieve the same optical quality as Porro prism models, they usually cost more to manufacture. Many people will express a strong preference for one over the other. For example, the Porro prism design with its wider spaced objectives and can show slightly more "depth" in the image where as the roof prism's image appears more compressed.

Roof-prism binoculars were first developed by a German binocular manufacturer in the mid-1800s. This design features two straight barrels, giving it an H-shaped appearance.
The design reflects light through a series of five small prisms in each barrel. Roof-prism binocs have grown in popularity in the last few decades, primarily because many leading optics manufacturers are producing excellent optics in this format. Because of the way roof-prisms are designed, most of the focusing hardware is enclosed inside the body of the binoculars. This hardware is adjusted with an external focusing knob or wheel.
Advantages

Considerably more compact than comparable porro prism model and usually easier to hold for long periods.
Are generally manufactured to closer optical and mechanical tolerances making them more rugged than comparable quality porro prism binoculars.
Ease of handling
Fewer external moving parts (which means increased durability)
A better ratio of power-to-weight; that is, in general, a 10x roof-prism weighs less than a 10x Porro.

Disadvantages

Higher cost.
Tend to be more expensive than Porros
Often don't focus as closely
Because of the additional prisms required to reflect incoming light, roof prisms often do not offer as "bright" an image as Porros.


End excerpt.

Cheers

Dennis

[ausastronomer]

"O",

The information Dennis has provided above is spot on and spells out the reasons you're better off with a good porro prism binocular in this case, as I indicated in my previous post.

Without going to the extremes of spending $2,000 to $3,000 on a pair of top quality roof prism binoculars, there are several outstanding porro prism binoculars which can be purchased for well under $A1,500 locally, or a lot less if you want to import them from the USA. These will at least equal if not outperform the top roof prism binoculars optically for astronomical and daytime observations. The downside is that ergonomically they are not quite as nice as the roof's, although still very good.

If you can afford a good quality pair of binoculars you should buy them IMO, as I said previously you get what you pay for. Unfortunately the cost increases logarithmically in terms of performance gains.

Some binoculars to consider are:-

Nikon 10x42 SE
http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?t=88&pid=1890&m=

Nikon 12x50 SE
http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?t=88&pid=1891&m=

Fujinon Polaris 10x50 FMT-SX
http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?t=88&pid=9738&m=

You will notice I have linked these to US websites but they are available in Australia.

All 3 of these binoculars would last you a lifetime and are superb optically and mechanically.

Dennis,

In your post you mention that porro prism binoculars have "external" focusing mechanisms making them slightly harder to waterproof and shockproof. Well that used to be true :) I have just ordered the 1st "internally" focusing porro prism binocular on the market

Leupold Cascade 10x42 internal focus porros

http://leupold-sports-optics.binoculars.com/products/leupold-sports-optics-10x42-cascade-internal-focus-porro-prism-44422.html

They should arrive in the next few days :)

CS-John B

[janoskiss]

Don't underestimate the convenience of being able to wipe the dew off the lenses with your shirt sleeve in the field on less expensive binos, and not having the neurotic urge to put it back in its case with the lenscaps on every time you put it down.

This is one of the things I like most about my Pentax PCF (2nd hand < $100). It's plenty good enough for handheld stargazing and as a finder but it's also inexpensive and well-used enough, so that I don't feel sorry for it when i don't handle it with the utmost care. Part of the reason I just sold my little Fujinon.

Just a thought.

[iceman]

I'd never spend more than a few hundred on binoculars.. yes they're a great and invaluable tool, but any more than that and I'd feel the money is more value put towards a better telescope, better eyepieces etc.

Once you have a telescope, you'll use it far more than your binoculars.

If you plan to use the binos for terrestrial use (birdwatching etc), then maybe it's worth spending a little more on a good quality pair.

[ausastronomer]

Mike/Steve,

Everyone's case is different. I wouldn't tell Jamie Packer he should only buy a $300 pair of binoculars because he won't use them as much as his telescope. Jamie wouldn't give a rats ar__ if he dropped a $3,000 pair of binos in the water at the beach :)

For the guy with 3 starving kids, a mortgage, a missus that doesn't work and gross weekly pay of $400, I would consider any binocular over $300 as a complete waste of money, unnecessary and over the top.

For someone with no kids, no mortgage, a missus that works and a weekly wage of over $3k I would think it foolish to buy any pair of binoculars costing less than $700. Nothing has changed, you get what you pay for and yes any experienced observer can immediately tell the difference between a $300 pair of binoculars and a $1,000 pair of binoculars. They are a fair way apart, just not 3 times better.

Have you ever looked through a pair of Nikon SE's or Fujinon FMT-SX to actually see how much better they are than the cheaper binoculars, or are you merely making an assumption that the cheaper binos are fine because they do "a fair job" without really knowing what top quality binoculars are all about ?

Steve, those Fujinon 8x42 BFL's you just sold are NOT actually made by Fujinon. They are made by a 3rd party Japanese manufacturer for Fujinon as a budget/entry level birding binocular. The Fujinon FMT-SX are made by Fujinon and are in a different class altogether to the BFL series, that's why they cost 3 times more money.

Mike,

I have been using binoculars for 40 years and my binoculars have always served dual duty for both astronomical use and daytime use. For many years I used a pair of older Carl Zeiss Jena 10x50WA Jenoptem (Dekarem) Binos for both astronomy and daytime observation. They cost an arm and a leg when they were bought for me (21st b/day present). I rarely left the house for any trip or even extended time period that they didn't go with me. Unfortunately those older porro prism binoculars were not impervious to salt water and several hundred offshore fishing trips and several thousand litres of salt spray ultimately saw them head to greener pastures. Would I have traded them for a cheap pair of binos because I stuffed them after 23 years of hard use and abuse ? Not a a chance, I would have replaced them with the same, except Carl Zeiss Jena stopped making binos in about 1991 with the unification of East and West Germany. These were crackers for the time period and the design stood the test of time for over 50 years. Of course with modern materials and technology things have moved on in terms of contrast and light transmission. I always believe in buying the best quality you can afford because "the poor man always pays twice" and "the pain of poor quality lingers long after the joy of low price".

As I said before "O", if it's not going to cause any financial or marital pain, buy a "DECENT" pair of binoculars. In other words a pair of porro prism binos costing over $A700. If you fit into the category where money is an issue, then you will be more than happy with a cheaper/medium pair of porro prism binoculars like the Pentax PCF WP II 10x50's costing about $250.

CS-John B

[matt]

As always, some very astute and valuable observations John.

I'm currently in the market for some knockies myself and this thread has been most useful.

[janoskiss]

No I have never looked through one of them bad boys. It sounds like maybe I shouldn't either. I must admit that when I am using binos for star hopping, just to find something so then I can look at it 'properly' with the scope, the quality of the cheaper binos doesn't worry me (though I still want good coatings and baffling so I can actually see what I'm looking for). But when I lay back in the recliner and use the binos for actual observing, then I wish I had a better quality pair with sharper stars across the FOV, less CA, more contrast etc.


That's what the person who bought it told me too. Although I did not know about the inner workings of Fujinon, for $300 I never expected that they would be in the same league as the $1000+ models.

[Dennis]

I'll second that. It will also form a valuable contribution to the article I am attempting to write on bino's for IIS. :thumbsup:

Good stuff everyone, you're making the onerous task of writing the article, that Iceman cajoled me into, somewhat easier. :P

Cheers

Dennis

[iceman]

I did no such thing :P Just gentle persuasion :)

[Dennis]

Profuse apologies Mike – I meant to write coerced but couldn't spell it at the time....:P ;) :rofl: :rofl:

["O"]

thank you everyone for all your help .. John, thats exactly the type of advice I was looking for ..... specific models ....

i got my first binocular ( ever ) !!!! the search is over.

the final decision went to the Pentax PCF 10x50 WPII for several reasons of my own....

the viewing is great and already exceed a newbie's expectation like me!

John, even if I decide to get better ones in the future, this Pentax one can still be use for more rougher purposes!

thank you all again, until next time ... general consensus on scope! (hey Dennis, great work on the bino's article .... can't wait to see your next one on scope! )

"O"

[janoskiss]

Congrats on your purchase! Sounds like you've got a winner. :)

10" Dob! :lol:

[ausastronomer]

"O",

You will be very happy with these. They are an excellent binocular for the money and you will get many many years of enjoyment from them.

CS-John B