Advice on balancing

[alphanull25]

Hi. Any advice on balancing the scope with extra equipment. The balance is great until I add a Canon 500D. Tracking goes crazy. Mount screams in pain - not really lol but if I re-adjust everything and check the balance, I would have to re-align, but I cant see anything, so the camera comes off to use the eye piece which changes the balance. Live view on the camera is only good for really bright objects. The alignment stars are not bright enough. -

Im just going around in circles. I can add a 1.25kg weight and slide the tube, but this screws up my fine tuned alignment too and I can hardly take the weights off else it will fall over. I need a solution that I can attach to the primary mirror end of the tube to even out the balance. I Think

Skywatcher 8inch Reflector HEQ5 Pro Mount
Beenleigh QLD

Thanks. Some useful ideas would be most appreciated. I wonder what other people do to balance their equipment. :)

[rustigsmed]

hi niall, welcome!

please look here http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-498-0-0-1-0.html it gives some good tips.

unfortunately balancing a newt is near impossible to get exactly right due to the location of the eyepiece.

I swivel my tube so the eyepiece is pointing directly upwards...

how many kg's have you got hanging off the end?

Rusty

[5ash]

Hi Niall,
One way to achieve dual use with out too much trouble is to buy a second set of tube rings, one will do . Then attach attach sufficient mass to it via either of the attachment screws to allow it at the mirror end to balance the mass of the camera. Mark the position where balance is achieved with some electrical tape , then when ever the camera is used the balance ring can be attached within a few seconds.
Regards philip
Ps . By rotation of the balance ring about the balance point will also make balance easier to achieve with the camera in any position around the tube.

[raymo]

Hi Niall, I don't understand how hanging a 500D on your scope screws up your tracking. Balance in itself should have no effect on tracking, unless it is so hugely out of whack that the motor hasn't got the strength to drive
it. I can switch from a 1.25" eyepiece, to a 2" EP, or to my 1100D in it's
experimental cool box, and not worry about balance. I have the same rig as you.
Just saw 5ash's post. Just a point; An extra tube ring and a weight will take you very close to your
mount's weight limit, and a little over the recommended max for imaging.
raymo

[alphanull25]

Hi Thanks for your advice guys. Raymo, I am mystified as well. I think I will test the tracking and closely observe what is happening. With a 3 star alignment on the SynScan the tracking should be perfect. I have 10kg counter weights.

[glend]

Several issues there. When I set up my 8" newt on the NEQ6 I try not to set neutral balance, you want a little weight on the gears especially on the RA axis imho. My process is to align with a 20mm ep, then do the alignment correction routine in Synscan V3.35, then when near 0'0" on both Alt and Az go to a bright star near your imaging target. Make sure your finder scope cross hairs are aligned exactly on the target star. If your not guiding then do a PAE on your star to set up the mount for that part of the sky. Then setup your camera and you should be able to focus on that star, lock your focuser at that point, obviously using a Bathinov mask helps with the focusing. Now goto your target. You should be on it and in focus. Do a few test subs and check them in Liveview screen model, you can tweak location alittle if needed, but if your setup star was centred then you should be ok. It helps if your target is visible to the finderscope but many faint objects will not be which is why we do test subs. If you start with fairly bright objects it helps learn the technique and you gain confidence to tackle the faint objects.
Good luck, its not easy at first but practice gets you there.:thumbsup:

PS, if you cannot focus the camera on a bright star, or any alignment star ( which are usually bright) then you may not have the spacing right for the camera sensor. Your not trying to use an extension tube are you, as they are usually needed for visual use on imaging newts but not used for the camera.

[alphanull25]

Hi Glen. Thanks for your advice. No there is no extension. Just camera T Mount directly to the telescope. I did get a brilliant run with M8 the other night and produced a good photo. I have the scope setup in the spare room and tried the method of marking and moving the tube. This works. I can now get balance without breaking the alignment. Thanks everyone for your help. Now to wait until the moon goes away and try those galaxies again.

[raymo]

You say the tracking should be perfect after doing a three star alignment. The Synscan alignment routine has no bearing at all on the mount's tracking ability. It just allows the mount to know where it is pointing, so
that the Go To function works as accurately as possible. The polar alignment routine that I presume you are doing each time you set up your rig, decides how well it will track. The more accurate your polar alignment is, the better it will track. If you get the alignment down to
under an arc minute on both axes it will give round stars for up to
around 2 minutes at prime focus. Incidentally, for your purposes,
three star alignment is not necessary, most owners use 2 star.
I don't know what polar alignment method you are using, but if you
have firmware version 3.35 in your hand controller, you can use the polar alignment routine therein. Incidentally, no mount, however expensive, will give perfect tracking, which is why long exposures have to be
guided, either manually, or autoguided.
raymo

[alphanull25]

Thanks Raymo. You are right. I was not even doing that polar alignment thing. The new 335 pdf manual explains how to do it and not fully understanding everything I missed it completely. No wonder I was getting odd results :)

[alphanull25]

Oh by the way, I am using the stacking method rather than long exposure

[glend]

Back to basics, do you know how to set up the mount to point to true south and at the elevation for your latitude? If you do it will make the polar alignment correction routine easy, if not and you are way out then you won't have enough Az adjustment in the bolts. Are you using a compass, correcting for magnetic deviation to find true south? Sorry if this appears insulting or condescending but its necessary to get a reference point.

[raymo]

I also don't want to seem condescending, but I urge you to get the basics of setting up your gear off pat, before attempting anything more than
single photos. Stacking is very definitely a case of running before you can walk. You won't produce decent pics by bypassing the essential first steps. Before moving on to stacking, you need to know that your mount is accurately polar aligned, your scope is reasonably well collimated, and
any cone error adjusted out. Astrophotography is a fairly steep learning
curve; there are no short cuts. Good luck.
raymo

[Rex]

Hi Niall, I have a similar scope and mount to yours, and what I have done to balance it, is mount the finder on the opposite side of the scope to the focuser. My guidescope, also a reflector is mounted directly on top of my main scope in away that its focuser is also on the oposite side to the main focuser. In this way the front end of my scope is almost balanced from leftbto right, (main camera on one side, finder and guide camera on the other). All that needs to be done then is slide the entire scope assembly further back to find the centre of gravity so it is also balanced front to back. Hope that gives you some ideas that may help. What i do for alignment etc is ensure my finder is exactly aligned to my main camera. That way when i do my three star alignment or lign up on my object, i simply use the finder. Once pointed at my object i do a 10 second test shot to confirm my object is framed as i want, then check focus, guiding calibration, and start taking images. Once again hope that helps you out with some ideas.

[Rex]

I don't think there is only one way to do any of the complex procedures that form the parts of this hobby. Every piece of equipment is unique and with time, and some pointers like you have been given by everyone here, you will form a routine that suits you and your equipment. Good luck and keep at it, practice makes perfect.

[athua]

Niall,

With the live view on the Canon cameras, they generally have Exposure Simulation on which shows on the back LCD what the exposure will be like. So to get the alignment stars to be visible, try bumping the ISO to as high as you can (say 3200) and the shutter speed to something like 20 or 30 seconds.

I do that on my 40D and the alignment stars for my mount can be seen on live view on the camera.

Gus.

[alphanull25]

Hi Everyone. Thank you for your thoughts. I deliberately picked the beginner forum so that my questions did not insult the experts. The only way I can learn is to ask questions and practice. Yes I am aligning the tripod first by using a long ruler on the ground pressed up against the back legs. The compass is set to 169 degrees for Brisbane. I move the mount legs around to line up the compass. Next I use a level to adjust the legs and make sure everything is flat. Next I place the mount on the tripod. The Altitude axis is set to 27 degrees. It gets adjusted during the polar align procedure that I learnt about this evening out in the heavy humidity. The scope is loaded and the two 5kg weights. I have now marked the scope so that I have two positions to slide it. One for the slight increase in weight when the camera is on and the other for normal viewing. The scope came with an extra ring which is very handy to prevent sliding. All my observing is done in the backyard of suburban Beenleigh. I am limited by large objects and light. Long exposures are not possible here. I have done a few and came up with some nice shots, but I also enjoy the stacking method for deep sky objects. I photographed M8 the other day and it came up great in Lightroom. 100 shots at 4 sec each and 1600 ISO. More exposure time than that would be too bright with the moon out at the moment. However I do know how to use the camera and I do a lot of experimenting before starting a run. I did not want to travel to a dark site without the knowledge and practice required for such a venture. Mucking around in the back yard and experimenting is teaching me a huge amount. I am a software developer by trade and it is easy for me to merge graphical and other apps with the telescope hobby. Todays helpful suggestions have advanced my expertise a great deal. Thank you all.