Can't go wrong with a Takahashi?

[Clancy Lane]

(Apologies to Humayun for using his heading)

I have been advised to post this for the information of other Takahashi owners with a 2.7" focuser. (Mine is a TSA120)

As can be seen in the attached image, this focuser is worn away on the saddle that holds the spindle shaft and that is tensioned by a plate with two screws.

It is such a simple mechanism that it is hard to understand how this wear could occur in such a short time with little use by both owners.

Also intriguing is the black outline around the worn area...who and when did someone take it upon themselves to outline the effected area?

Was it Quality control?

This fault has been brought to the attention of Claude at AEC and he is as horrified as I was.

Claude has been marvellous and is sending images and info to Japan for advice, as the warranty is not transferable.

I used the scope without a problem at Qld Astrofest with manual focusing only.

It was only after fitting a custom JMI motor focuser and having problems with getting the focuser to work that we dismantled the focus mechanism and discovered the wear.

The scope serial number is 130163 which means it was a 2013 model.

If you own a focuser similar to this, it may be beneficial to have a look and see if there is similar wear.

May I stress that the previous owner had no knowledge of this problem when the scope was sold and absolutely no inference should be made that he is at fault in any way.

I hope this post is of help.

regards,

Phil

[beren]

I hope you can get it fixed quickly.

I'll be installing a JMI motorfocuser on mine soon, I'll keep a eye out .

Wonder if the focuser lock was engaged a little while using or when testing the JMI focuser while installing ?

[Clancy Lane]

When we installed the JMI motor focuser, the focus shaft would travel out but would then not travel in.

I use an Sbig 8300c for imaging that does not weigh much at all and the scope was horizontal at the time.

Nice theory but not cause of the problem.

We also fitted an Orion motor focuser with exactly the same results.

regards,

Phil

[gregbradley]

Hard to tell from the photo that there is excessive wear. What is the picture showing?

Electric focusers often travel out more easily (with gravity) than against.
Isn't that more a comment on the electric focuser not having enough grunt or a slipping fitting if you say you could focus manually easily?

Electric focusers have a bush that fits the shaft of the focuser. In the case of Robofocus there is a standard brass bush and it often does not match some scopes so you can get a wobble and it will fit rotating to some degree. You can order from Robofocus the exact right bush (shaft diameter exactly the same rather than the grub screws screwed too far in to close up the too large a diameter bush). That makes a night and day difference. How is it with the JMI in this regard?

Greg.

[Clancy Lane]

Thanks for your input Greg!

One side of the saddle has actually worn away so badly that there is a hole that can be seen as a 'U' in the pic.

I have attached another image that might show this a bit clearer.

Four of my scopes are fitted with electric focusers:

Megrez 90; Meade 127 APO; MN190 and the Tak.

Only the Tak has a problem.

The Tak was horizontal during testing and no amount of adjustment to the focuser made any difference.

The other question remains: why is there a black outline around the worn area?

The worry is, of course, that if this much damage has been done in only a short period, how much worse is it going to be later?

regards,

Phil

[Larryp]

Phil, I did not say the focuser was stiffer than normal, I said it was stiffer than I liked it to be, and asked if it was possible to slacken it off. The email reply I got from Japan suggested I send it back to them to change the type of grease in the focuser, or alternatively fit a micro-focuser (which is what I did)

[Clancy Lane]

Thanks Larry!

I have removed the wording.

regards,

Phil

[Clancy Lane]

Lewis came by today and inspected the focuser.

His opinion was that the black line could indicate that a fault in the focuser casting had been noticed during assembly and the casting was then further machined in an attempt to rectify the fault.

We then loaded up the focuser with the reducer and the STF8300.

Using the manual control, the focuser moved outwards smoothly.

When moving inwards, the focuser would bind, severely, if further out.

I am sending the focuser to Claude for appraisal and rectification.

So far, from all the replies I have received, mine is the only focuser not performing as it should.

regards,

Phil

[LewisM]

I concur with what Phil has reported. I hypothesize there lays a problem with the teflon tensioning pad on top of the drawtube - it is either deformed or cracked. White scoring/abrasion marks are evident in the sandblast chrome finish to the drawtube at the top under the teflon pad. No attempt was made to remove the focuser from the PTA to check, and nor were the 3 factory lacquer sealed tensioner grub screws tampered with.

The teflon pad would seem to be thrusting the drawtube to some extent. It would appear that the trailing section of the teflon pad (that closest to the OTA) is pitched DOWN (and the leading edge vice-versa), allowing free outward travel (and slipping under weight despite the lock screw being ALMOST cinched locked), but binding inward travel.

I believe this to be a simple fix or replacement. If it were my telescope, I would attempt this myself, but it is not, so that is not my call.

I DON'T think the remedied pinion cradle in the casting has any effect on this whatsoever, but Takahashi may have forgotten to re-adjust the 3 tensioning grub screws AFTER their QC remedial work. I believe the onus lies squarely with Takahashi.

[Paul Haese]

I have a 102 and have had it for 7 years. It has done numerous automated imaging runs I the last 3 years and does not exhibit that sort of wear or damage. It got loose about 6 months ago but still was focusing until it got so loose that it slipped totally. Even then it did not get that worn.

In my focusor there is not Teflon, so I don't know where that comes from.

[jamespierce]

believe it or not we have a complete spare focuser for a TSA120 ... we put a feather touch on ours. It's currently packed in a box to move house, but if you need a replacement in december let us know and we can come to a deal.

[Clancy Lane]

Thanks James,

That is very handy to know.

The focuser has been sent to Takahashi in Japan for assessment and, I have insisted, replacement.

The attached image shows what a Tak 2.7" focuser should be able to handle.

I will let you know the outcome.

regards,

Phil

[Allan]

Can I ask why did you change what I thought would be a pretty good Tak focuser for the Feathertouch and did you notice much difference? Cheers

[dweller25]

The 14 year old Tak focuser on my FS-128 had EXACTLY the same problem. I have now replaced it with a Feathertouch.

[Clancy Lane]

Thanks for the info dweller,

Have you any idea why the focuser was in that condition and did you approach Takahashi?

The focus unit has been sent back to Japan for inspection and, I hope, replacement.

I'm informed it takes about a month to go through the process.

The Feathertouch is a great option but I would like to keep the scope original.

regards,

Phil

[AnakChan]

Sorry to hear your woes. Hope you get it fixed soon. After much research I bought my first Takahashi last week - a Mewlon 250CRS. Last night I used it for the first time & it's electric focuser doesn't work.

I'm sure it's sheer bad luck but after 18 years of coming from a Vixen (VC200L), this definitely isn't a good introduction to a renown brand.

[Clancy Lane]

That is sad to hear Sean!

At least you are close to the source for rectification but it is going to take some time as they inform me they are very busy with repairs.

Maybe Takahashi needs to update their Quality Control inspection methods before the scope leaves the factory.

At one time, in my role as warehouse manager for Roland Musical Instruments, every item was unpacked and tested prior to shipment to retailers around Australia....in 3 years not one item was returned as faulty on receipt by the retailer.

On the other hand, I have probably purchased about 20 scopes over the years and I think I can say that everyone of them had some fault that needed rectification.

I even bought a Canon 60Da that had an ant's nest in the flash unit!

good luck,

Phil

[LewisM]

The joys of electronic units - one reason I won't automate anything! I keep all mine purely mechanical and shy away from anything that has electronics as standard issue.

None of my Taks has any mechanical issue that I can see or feel. Here's fingers crossed the incoming TSA-102S is trouble free...

[Hans Tucker]

Ok this isn't reassuring. I am/was contemplating a Mewlon 300CRS but had reservations because of the negative reports regarding the focusing system which also plagued the CCA-250. I thought they had fixed the problem.

And before the lynch mob get on the band wagon this is not a dig at Takahashi...all my gear (FSQ-106N, FSQ-106ED, Mewlon 250, NJP, EM200) is or has been Takahashi.

[AnakChan]

Argh, I'll need to retract my statement. It turns out that the electric focusing system needed a +/- "reset" and a fresh set of batteries (seems the shrink wrapped batteries supplied were under voltage).

After I mailed Yama-san of Starbase Akihabara, he recommended me to try that and it worked. Unfortunately my astronomy weekend was over and only managed to test it when I got home.

Faith restored with Takahashi again, faith in myself, down the drain.

[Clancy Lane]

From Takahashi:

Our repair section of the factory has checked and repaired of the focuser
and following is its report.

1. Rack and pinion gears were terribly damaged, and focus movement could not be rotated in smooth.
2. The above damage on the gears was caused by user's working and/or
modification, judging from the leaving trace on the gears and parts.
3. The gears are replaced with new ones and put the grease as standard.
With this repair, the focuser can be moved in smooth.
4. The Focuser is now moved smooth enough and is within Takahashi standard.
It was cleared Takahashi out-going inspection.
5. The repair cost is JPY 12,000

The technician informs me that the flawed saddle holding the focus spindle shaft is within normal specs and does not require replacement.

I am paying for the repair so that I can use the scope but I am taking James up on his offer for a replacement focuser.

What burns me up is that this scope was manufactured in 2013!

cheers,

Phil

[casstony]

Seems like Takahashi has a bit to learn about customer relations. They should have erred on the side of the customer, repaired at no cost and we would have been talking about how good their customer service is.

[LewisM]

Playing devil's advocate, Tak did say they believe that SOMEONE had damaged the rack and/or pinion teeth by alterations. Unfortunately in Phil's case, the scoring from clamping the robofocus grub screws down was VERY evident as circular scratches in the chrome plate of the pinion shaft (remember, I did personally inspect the unit, and did write my observations in my letter I provided Phil). I am sure they are basing their damage by customer alteration stance entirely on the visual and tangible evidence in front of them and have decided their response as such based on this.

Is their decision correct? I am not sure, but based on Laurie also complaining of a stiffer than expected drawtube movement - and that was PRIOR to any additional "alteration", I would say the focuser was defective from manufacture, or at least damaged in transit to Claude prior to sale (rough bumping COULD jar the teeth).

Should they replace FOC? Well, again, I can't comment on that, as unfortunately the onus is on Phil to somehow prove that he hadn't altered the focuser in any way, but unfortunately, explicit evidence COULD be twisted to argue in favour of the Takahashi stand point.

Still 12000 Yen is only $130, which seems unbelievably cheap for Takahashi anything! I was of the understanding that the certificate that comes with new Tak's costs about 400000000000 yen... :)

[Larryp]

Lewis, the focuser was stiff compared to other scopes I have owned, but apparently normal for Takahashi-my new FC-100DF feels exactly the same. As I have previously stated, Takahashi advised me that if I wanted it to be easier to operate, I should either send the focuser back to them to change the grease, or alternatively fit the 7:1 micro-focuser-which is what I did. The focuser, as you have said previously, was never adjusted or tampered with in any way.
I ordered my FC-100DF with the micro-focus in anticipation that its focuser would feel the same as the TSA120.

[Clancy Lane]

My personal opinion is that the casting of the focus unit was flawed, picked up on inspection in the factory, reworked and passed as ok.

However, when a JMI motor focuser was fitted by myself and Dennis, damage probably happened to the gears when trying to move the tube against whatever was causing the binding.

As much as I tried to convey this probable scenario to Takahashi, the message just did not get through.

However, as the casting has not been replaced, the flaw still exists and when I receive the unit next week, I will test it out. (maybe Lewis would like to be there to assist)

If the focuser still binds with reducer and camera loaded, then I will take the matter further with Takahashi.

regards,

Phil

[wasyoungonce]

Phil...I agree with you totally.....but if the unit still binds....give up and put on an after market focuser...like an FT. Sure write back to Tak and tear them a new one but really it's obviousthey fail to understand from your point of view nor are they engaging in customer satisfaction.

Really, there are some times you have to accept defeat even though you are right. I know its wrong but it will be less stressful and easier.

Anyway...FWIW.:shrug:

[Clancy Lane]

Brendan,

You are so right!

Tilting at windmills can be a pointless and frustrating experience.

regards,

Phil

[Exfso]

That price from Takahashi is brilliant, I have had repairs done by them and they were much, much more expensive than that.

[AnakChan]

I've lived in Japan for 14.5 years now and I have to be honest I'm not surprised with the conclusion they've come up with. I'm not certain if the modifications are truly at fault, but the way most of the manufacturers (not just Takahashi) think is that if someone has touched it from stock (even if it's dismantled and put back together, let alone install a 3rd party product on it) and a fault develops, fingers will point to the customer or 3rd party product.

Things in general are a lot more "black 'n white" here - I've grown accustom to it.

[Clancy Lane]

The repaired focuser arrived from Japan this morning.

I fitted it onto the telescope, added the imaging train, attached the electric focuser and it is now working properly.

regards,

Phil