what binoculars to purchase???

[Chippy3476]

Hi all,
I am planning on buying a new pair of binoculars but am stumped on what size to get!
The main thing is I do not want to use a tripod and will be laying back in a recliner to observe but I also want a big enough pair to see as much detail as possible under these conditions, i want to get a pair of 20*80 but im worried they will be to unsteady to hand hold :( I want atleast a 70mm appeture as I already have a pair of 10*50 and want to see more than what they are capable. Any advice would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Dan

[doppler]

I use a 12 x 60 pair and can easily hold them steady, but I find that quite a few people have trouble keeping them steady. I think that 20 x magnification would be very hard to hand hold.

Rick

[SkyWatch]

Hi Dan,
Anything over about 10x is a bit unsteady for hand-holding, although lying back in your recliner makes it easier!
Orion have both 20x80's and 15x70's. (eg: see http://www.bintel.com.au/Binoculars/Orion-Binoculars/138/catmenu.aspx)
Their "Astro" series are their basic generic low-price binos: Celeston and others re-brand them too.
Much better quality, but also heavier and lots dearer, are their "Resolux" 15x70's. These are known as generic "BA8" binoculars, and are also re-branded by a lot of people including Andrews Communications (their "MB Ultra"), Williams, and even Astro-Physics.
If you want to go the whole hog and you have a very deep pocket, you could always try the Fujinon 16x70's (eg: http://procular.com.au/fujinon-16x70-fmt-sx-binoculars/ )

All the best,

Dean

[dannat]

telescopes & astronomy has a lightweight pair of 13x70mm -13x is about as much as you want to handhold -if you are reclining make sure you push your elbows against your body or the chairs arms to support the bino

[Starlite]

Chippy, If you win OZ Lotto tonight check the equipment reviews...binocular reviews... Canon Image Stabilised Binoculars by Rita Jacobson. Cheers,:eyepop:

[Chippy3476]

Im thinking maybe 15*70mm, or 11*70. I would love 20*80 but I dont think its doable without a mount of some sort,
Dan

[Allan]

Danial, I just sold my 15x70's because I didn't want to use bino's on a mount anymore. Believe it when people say you can't hand hold 15x bino's. 11x70's will be okay, but factor in the weight of them. A pair like the Resolux that I had are heavy and even their 11x70's would be hard to hand hold for any length of time.

[Renato1]

I can hand hold 15X70s, and a heavy pair of 15X70s is easier to hand hold steady than a lighter pair.

20X80s aren't hand holdable, unless they are attached to a tripod, and I hand hold the tripod - only very occasionally do I use them with the tripod on the ground.

The image in my 20X80s is plainly better than in my 15X70s, but I tend to use the 15X70s more often.
Regards,
Renato

[Chippy3476]

How much better would 11*70 be compared to my 10*50? Can I see more? Or am I better off taking my chances and going with the 15*70?:shrug:
Dan

[ausastronomer]

Allan,

Just because you can't hand hold your previous pair of 15x binoculars, doesn't mean that applies to everyone and every pair of 15x binoculars. It comes down to the individual observer, using the proper technique to hand hold large powerful binoculars and the ergonomics and design of the specific binoculars. I have been hand holding my 16 x 60 Pentax PCF WP binoculars for over 10 years. Similarly, the Zeiss 15 x 60 BGA and the Orion 15 x 63 Mini Giants are very hand holdable for most observers. It's worth noting that most 60mm binoculars are far more hand holdable than 70mm binoculars, notwithstanding slightly higher magnification in many cases.

It's a pity Pentax stopped making the 16 x 60 size when they went to the PCF WP2 version about 4 or 5 years ago. In the new series you can only get the 20 x 60 model which is difficult to hand hold but just doable for short periods for some people. I wouldn't recommend these for hand holding. In the older WP series you could get both 16 x 60 and 20 x 60 sizes.

Danial,

What is your budget? ie What is your maximum spend amount.

You can get binoculars for $30, $300, $1,000 or $3,000. It's impossible to advise you properly without knowing your budget. Most of the <$200 binoculars are ordinary with shorter eye relief, whereas a lot of binoculars in the $200 to $1,000 range are very good with more comfortable eye relief.

It's a pity you can no longer get the 16 x 60 Pentax PCF WP, as these would have been perfect for you and cost just under $400 when new. Unfortunately they don't come up very often 2nd hand as everyone who owns them loves them.

You might want to consider the Orion 15 x 63 Mini Giants.

http://www.bintel.com.au/Binoculars/Orion-Binoculars/Orion-Mini-Giant-15x63/1727/productview.aspx

These are very good optically, Japanese made with comfortable (19mm) eye relief. These are hand holdable and a notch up in optical quality from a lot of the far east binoculars, which almost cost the same amount in some cases. These will be a significant gain over your present 10 x 50's

Cheers
John B

[Kunama]

Just a tip you may or may not be aware of ......

Hold your binoculars with your hand around the objective end (the big end !!!) rather than the usual grip near the prisms, it makes it much much easier to keep them steady.

Personally I still prefer 10x50 as max hand holding for any lengthy viewing,
(anything bigger and I find I have to put my red wine or beer down and use both hands ..... :P :cheers:

[Chippy3476]

Thanks all,
My budget is only $300 max at the moment, I can get a pair of Saxon 15*70 for $220. Every scope and binoculars I own are saxon and I am extremely happy with the quality of them so I know I can trust the brand, i am thinking that I will buy this pair on the weekend. Unless I find better before then. Thanks for all the advice it has helped alot.
Dan:thanx:

[julianh72]

Don't you just hate it when you pick up your beer by mistake, instead of your binoculars, and pour yourself a face-full of beer instead of getting a nice view of 47 Tuc?

:D

[ausastronomer]

Hi Dan,



I understand you might be price constrained however I think you would find that Bintel might do you a deal on the Orions and you could land them to your door for $300 to $320. I would encourage you to think seriously about going this way, or even adding a little extra cash. The Orions are a quantum leap forward from the Saxons in terms of optical quality and ergonomics, for not much extra money, in this case.

Some of the advantages of the Orions over the Saxons are:-

1) They weigh 1.2 Kilograms compared to 2.1 Kilograms for the Saxons. Combined with the weight factor the smaller diameter barrels of the objective lenses will make the Orions significantly easier to hand hold.

2) The Orions have 19mm of eye relief compared to 12mm for the Saxons making the Orions significantly more comfortable to use for longer sessions.

3) The lenses on the Orions are fully multi coated compared to multi coated on the Saxons

4) The porro prisms on the Orions are made from BAK 4 Glass compared to BK 7 prisms used in the Saxons.

5) The Orions will give significantly better image quality towards the edges of the FOV. Stars will stay visible as pinpoints almost to the edge of field in the Orions. In the Saxons from about 70% of the way to the edge of the FOV stars will start to blur and in some cases not be visible due to the expansion of the diffraction point

Points 3,4 and 5 combined will mean that for a given aperture the Orions will throw up a brighter image with less internal reflections than the Saxons. The advantages of Bak 4 prisms are quite noticeable with BK 7 prisms having light drop off towards the edges of the field of view, where as the image brightness with BAK 4 prisms will be brighter and more consistent across the entire FOV. For these reasons, notwithstanding that the Orions have 7mm less aperture than the Saxons, the image brightness will be almost equal but the Orions will be significantly easier to hand hold and much more comfortable to use.

5) The Orions are Japanese made and the build quality is significantly better than the Saxons.



That's because you probably haven't used a premium quality product to compare the Saxon products against. Saxon products generally represent very good value for money, but in many cases they are well short of high quality. They are certainly a good option for people with budget constraints. However, in some cases not much extra money buys you a better and more user friendly product.

Ultimately its your money, your binoculars, your eyes and your decision. I am just trying to make you aware their is a significantly better product quality wise available, for not a lot of extra money, which you will find significantly easier and more comfortable to use than the product you are considering.

Good luck with your purchase, whichever way you end up going.

Cheers,
John B

[Renato1]

I also own a very nice pair of Nikon 10X70s. They are better than 10X50s in that star dots are brighter, so that open clusters look better. But they also brighten the sky background in light polluted skies to what you see in 7X50s.

10X70s are certainly nice for looking at star fields at dark sites. But for looking at DSOs within those fields and elsewhere, 15X70s are better in both dark and light polluted skies.

I should mention that 15X70s aren't just useful for the night sky. They make excellent day time binoculars for when travelling. For some reason, the shaking doesn't seem as bad in daylight as it does when trained on stars at night.
Regards,
Renato

[julianh72]

I can't comment on the relative quality of the Saxon 15x70s versus the Orion 15x63s, but just to be fair, the Saxon 15x70 Night Sky binoculars are stated to have Bak4 prisms, and are also said to be fully multi-coated:

http://www.saxon.com.au/binoculars/high-power-and-heavy-duty-binoculars/saxon-15x70-night-sky-binoculars.html

[Larryp]

The website says under "details" that they use Bak4 prisms and fully multi-coated objectives, but under "specifications", it says Bak7 prisms, and multi-coated objectives-seems Saxon don't know their own product!

[ausastronomer]

Hi Julian,

Larry is 100% correct. I got the details from the specifications tab, that has a lot more information than the details page, which is pretty scant. There are 2 pieces of contradictory data from the details page to the specifications page in terms of coatings and prism types. You can make that 3 if you consider the eye relief. On the specifications page it states the eye relief at 12.3mm, yet on the details page it says "long eye relief". Well I wouldn't call 12.3mm to be long eye relief for binoculars by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I would have said its closer to short than long. I would call 16mm plus to be "long eye relief". I am thinking the details page might by a bit of marketing spiel by someone non technical at Saxon.

Cheers,
John B

[Chippy3476]

Ok, I have just been in contact with saxon and they have told me that the specs Page has wrong details for these binoculars, they have assured me that they are indeed fully multi coated and Bak 4 prisms. The description Page is right but the specs Page is wrong.
Thanks for pointing this out to me. I have no idea what the difference between Bak 4 and 7 is but does it make them better?????:shrug:
Dan

[Neil]

When you decide Danial check out astronomy and telescopes for you, could have what you want.

[Starless]

I am pleased with my Pentax 10x50s

http://www.cloudynights.com/page/articles/cat/user-reviews/pentax-10x50-pcf-wp-ii-r2398

[julianh72]

For best stability, you want to hold the binoculars close to their centre of gravity. You can work out where that is by holding them lightly between the forefinger and thumb on each barrel, and moving back and forth until they don't rock when held with very light pressure on each hand.

If you are gripping heavy binoculars away from their CoG, you have to hold them tighter to stop them tilting, and this induces image shake and physical fatigue. If you can hold them in a balanced position, you can grip them much more lightly but still keep the image shakes under control. The bigger and heavier the binoculars (and the higher their magnification), the bigger this issue becomes.

For roof prism binoculars with their straight-through barrels, it is pretty easy to grip the binoculars close to their CoG so that they are well-balanced.

For "standard" sized Porro binoculars (e.g. 8x40, 10x50 or similar), the CoG is usually roughly at the front of the main body which houses the prisms, so holding them in the "natural" position with your hands on each side of the main body, with perhaps just your little fingers curling over towards the objective barrels, puts your hands pretty close to the centre of gravity. You may find they are actually still slightly "heavy" at the objective end, so if you find you are getting fatigued and / or shaky images, try moving your grip a finger-width or so towards the objectives to get a better balance.

However, for most "giant" binoculars (e.g. 15x70 etc), which have much longer barrels compared to the size of the prism body, and much bigger heavier objectives, you will find that the CoG can be well forward of the front of the prism body. The best place to hold these binoculars can be with three fingers (or maybe even four) and your thumbs gripping the barrels just in front of the main prism body, and perhaps your index fingers lightly gripping the prism body. (You probably don't want to be right up at the objective end, because then your binoculars will probably be "tail heavy".)

Experiment with your own binoculars to find their optimum balance point, as every design will put the CoG in a slightly different location. It can make a world of difference in image stability, comfort and fatigue if you are holding them close to their balance point.

[julianh72]

A pair of 10x50s are light and compact enough to be held steady for extended periods, but most people find the bigger and heavier 15x70s (or similar) can definitely test your endurance after a short period.

My tripods just aren't the right size and shape for convenient binocular stargazing use while sitting in a comfortable chair (you really need a parallelogram arm for this), and of course the higher magnification of a 15x70 only amplifies the shakes for hand-held use. However, a monopod can work well - if you have one.

I found that folding up the legs of a tripod to make a monopod works very well (especially with the pan / tilt head) - get yourself comfortable in your chair, plant the base of the “monopod” on the ground ahead of you, and lean it back to bring the binoculars up to your face, and then use the pan / tilt to get the alignment just right; then lock the pan / tilt, and you have a nice steady platform which requires virtually no arm support other than a bit of light guiding.

I have also found that a small table-top tripod can also make a handy “pistol grip” mount, which allows you to hand-hold heavy binoculars much more steadily than conventional hand-held use. I fold the three legs together to make a single “grip” for my left hand, and turn the pan / tilt handle 90 degrees to the right (rather than it's normal orientation in-line with the binoculars); then holding the pan / tilt handle in my right hand, it is actually possible to hold the binoculars much more steadily and comfortably than the normal handheld position. I'm not sure why this is - it’s probably because your arms are comfortably resting down on your chest rather than being held elbows-out in front of your chest, but if you doubt me, try it - it might work for you too!

[Amaranthus]

I recently got a pair of Canon 12x36 IS II binoculars. Wonderful. The image stabilization allows you to see at least 1 mag deeper, and it's almost like looking through your own eyes. I now take these out with me on any observing session - they have a 5 degree TFOV, and so perfectly complement a telescope, without the hassle of setting up a tripod. I like my 15 x 70s, but they're just too heavy to keep steady, and so mostly stay in the cupboard.

[Starlite]

Danial, These bino holders are easy to make. I made 2 sets for myself and 4 sets for friends.One pic shows him backing up to a pole which really does improve the stability. :thumbsup: Cheers.

[yoda776]

I got myself a pair of Pentax Whitetail 10x50s from the US after a viewing night a couple of weekends ago through a friend's set. Seemed nice and clear and could hold reasonably steady. Only around $70 - $80 AUD + postage. Some people can hold 12x but that is pretty much the limit and I can tell you I held 10x binos and still could see wobble at times. Definitely a tripod or some sort of holders (or image stabilisation) is needed.

I did also grab a pair of Celestron SkyMaster 25x100s and they definitely need a mount. Got on recommendation from astronomy club and reviews. Again grabbed from US as they were between 1/2 to 1/4 of the price than in Oz (not sure why the markup is so high even with the exchange rate?).

One of the experienced members of the club told me about the Canons (12x36s) image stabilised which sounded fantastic but to be honest after I heard the price I backed off :) However, a number of people I have spoken to think image stabilised binos are the best. mind you I have seen some pretty expensive binos where you can even change the eyepieces (think the brand was Lunt?) but then you are paying the price of a telescope. budget can't cope with that kind of money outlay!

The bino holders look interesting and might give a go if my tripod turns out not to cut the mustard.

[SkyWatch]

The Canons are terrific, and have excellent optics: as sharp to the edge as any I have looked through (including Zeiss, Leica and almost as good as Swarovski), so while you pay a premium they are not as much as these "top" brands and when the stabilising kicks in they show an amazing amount for such small binos.

Oberwerk produce 70mm and 100mm binos that you can change the eyepieces with. See: http://www.bigbinoculars.com/70bt45.htm

Have fun with your now binos,

All the best,

Dean

[yoda776]

Thanks I will when I receive them. I would go for image stabilised but do not have the funds for that because I am looking at a telescope at the moment. if I had the money for those binos I would get a pair - everyone seems to love them.