Good All Rounder For Dad And Daughter

[AnotherNewbie]

Hi All
Firstly let me apologise for asking a question that I know has been asked a thousand times before. I am really confused and all the research I have done so far (both with Google and this and other forums) only confuses me more and I just trying to get as many opinions as possible.

I am looking to buy a first (2nd) telescope that dad (me) and 5yo daughter can use.

First a bit of history, I own a cheap reflector with a horrible alt-az mount that was a nightmare to use. I have managed to find some of the gas giants but thats about as good as I got. The mount made it very difficult to point the scope in the right direction and it felt like I was constantly wresting with it, and the image would vibrate for around 15 seconds after is was touched/bumped. Because of this I didn't use it much.

What I am after is a telescope which I can use to view the moon's details up to nebulae and galaxys later on. I would like something that will give a bit of detail in the planets and not just a shape (Saturn) and a series of dots (Jupiter). I also want something I can use for photography a bit later on (I own a Canon 7D). I'd also like to be able to track things a bit closer to home like ISS but I think I might be dreaming on that one, from what I have read a few of the forum members have done it. I want to spend max $800.

I have come to the conclusion I want a reflector on a equatorial mount so I can easily track objects while the eyepeice is being shared, but please correct me if I'm wrong.


I was hoping for a computerised mount but have read they are complicated to set up, is it actually difficult? Or is it more "I'm a consumer and don't read manuals and it wont work out of the box and I'm too impatient/lazy to work it out so I'm returning it" difficult? Also does my price range mean any computer mount I get will mean poor quality telescope?



What if I settled for a motorised mount, can I upgrade that to a comuterised mount at a later date at a acceptable price (around $400)
What are the good brands (i.e not toys) I should be aiming for?
With the lack of specialised telescope/optics bricks and mortar shops (and the ones that do exist are too far and are not open when I'm able to visit) I will be forced to buy online. Which online store can I call up and talk to an honest knowledgeable salesman about their range? I'm happy to pay a bit extra for decent service and prefer an Australian online store with Autstralian stock. I visited an Australian Geographic shop today and I was not happy with the teenage store attendant knowledge to say the least, and it seemed to me they just sold overpriced toys (infact I think thats where the one I own now came from)

If you have read this far thank you, and I appreciate any advice you can offer.

[dannat]

i don't think you'll be able to get a computersied mount for 800, even a basic eq3 mount without drives costs 300-400;
for the time being it may be best to settle for either a newtonian reflector (either tube only or dobsonian mount) or a small refractor (e.g.secondhand ed80)
the ed80 will be upgradeable to a good mount later for photography
for the time being a good photo tripod with fluid head will support the OTA

I'm sure you'll get lots of recommendations for a dobsonian -i myself don't prefer this type of telescope -but refractors are more expensive & the lens is also smaller, making objects dimmer
andrewscomm & bintel are the 2 sydney shops you should look into

[AnotherNewbie]

Isnt a dobsonian the table type mounts. they seem a bit impractical to me with having to cart a table out to do any viewing? Or have I missed something? Oh and can they easily track objects (i.e with the turning of one knob)?

[AnotherNewbie]

Was having a look at this (http://www.opticscentral.com.au/celestron-astromaster-130eq-md-reflector-telescope-w-motor-drive.html#.VAxBeGNVXbQ) one and was thinking if a motor mount can be $360, something costing a bit more with just a motor mount would be much better quality no??

[raymo]

The simple answer is that you can't get exactly what you want [new] for
$800. No one scope in that price range [new] will do everything you want. You can either buy something that will do what you want [ used ]for around that price, or spend more for a new one, or compromise and get a scope that will do most of what you want for 800.
Firstly, there is no lack of bricks and mortar astro shops. As stated by Dannat, Bintel and Andrews are local for you, and there are quite a few others dotted around the country. They are all knowledgeable, and will
freight if necessary. MUCH better to be able to talk to your supplier in
the event of problems, or when you want advice on accessories etc:
An example of a good scope for you is the Celestron 127SLT. After a bit
of practice, it will find and track objects for you. This type of scope is
however only suitable for basic photography.
Only very small Dobsonians sit on a table; for most you need a chair.
For a simple motorised [non computerised] scope to track using
only one control, it needs to be fairly well polar aligned, which takes
a little time to do.
raymo

[Regulus]

Not this one Con. That mount is as wobbly as any I have tried. Impossible to get a blur free photo on it I found (ES600D) since a bit of wind sets it off.
I think this is worth a look for a computerised scope.
Same telescope but an Alt-Az rather than EQ mount
http://www.ozscopes.com.au/reflector-telescope-celestron-nexstar-130-slt.html
Celestrons online brochure:
http://www.celestron.com/browse-shop/astronomy/telescopes/nexstar-130slt-computerized-telescope

You can still get reasonable deep sky objects on the camera if you limit the exp time and do some stacking. JJJnette on IIS has been successful with here iOptron Alt-Az. Certainly you can get solar system objects easily with it.
Hope this helps
Trevor

[AnotherNewbie]

Thought that Celestron was a bit too cheap, is it me or are the celestrons the toys I'm trying to avoid?

How about this (http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Reflector/Skywatcher-BD150x750-EQ3-Mount--Aluminium-Legs-/580/productview.aspx) one, with a set of eye pieces will fall into my price range.

Due to my past bad experience I want the mount to be as good quality, if not better that the telescope. I am happy to settle for a manual eq mount as long as its good, I can then upgrade to a motor or computerised mount when I buy what ever it is I need to start astrophotography later on.

[AnotherNewbie]

When you say I can't get what I want for $800 what do you mean exactly? Do you mean I won't get a motor or computer mount, or I won't get a scope that can handle the range of objects I wish to observe? I am perfectly happy with a manual mount as long as it's an eq mount, and it must be of good quality (I think I'd rather take a hit on scope quality to get a good mount and stay in my price range)

As for astro photography I'm thinking down the track I can put some money into a new mount and any adapters I might need, but I was hoping the scope would be suitable.

Oh and as for bintel and Andrews, I have looked into them but neither are open when I am able to visit (I work 6 days a week and neither are open on Sundays)

I'm so confused :shrug:

[raymo]

Trevor, you are spot on, which is why I suggested the 127, which is a
Mak, and much more stable, even though it's on the same mount.

Anothernewbie, I had wrongly assumed that you preferred a motorised mount. Bintel and Andrews will be quite happy to help you on the phone.
There are several decent brands of 6" Newts on EQ mounts under $800,
including Skywatcher, and GSO. These can be fitted with a single axis motor drive fairly cheaply. Just be sure to ascertain from the vendor
that your choice of scope has sufficient back focus to enable it to
be used for prime focus photography, as many brands do not.
raymo

[brian nordstrom]

:thumbsup: That's a much better scope/mount set up , those OTA's are very light and perform brilliantly and the mount is nice and solid ,, even with the duel axis mount system attached it's under your budget .
Brian.

[Regulus]

Con the cheap celestrons are just that. I wasted money on a 127 newt and found the only useful thing about it was the tube rings. Woeful focuser. Basically unuseable. The 127 Raymo suggests is a beautiful scope that will give a life time of pleasure and, although you might go for a different scope later, you may never want to sell it because of it's solar system object credentials.
That SK150 newt seems a bit better than the 127Celestron although I have no experience with it.
Do not overlook the Vixen 130 newt which you can get for $310. The reviews are excellent.
http://myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-066F
If you look at this add in the IIS classifieds you will find links to some of those reviews.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=125840

This leaves you with $500 from your budget to get a mount and the Vixen on that same EQ3 as the Skywatcher is $695
http://myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-068A3

Anyway Con, I hope this helps. It is well worth taking time to think through what you want and what might do the job. I have seen people jump in early and end up with scopes/mounts that are not in the end what they wanted. It costs them more in the long run than it needed to.
Good luck with your deliberations.
Trev

[AnotherNewbie]

Thanks for your input Trevor, however I just want you to clarify a couple of things. The 127 (and 130) I am assuming is the aperture in mm, and I also assume when you say Newt (Newtonian) its the same as a reflector scope?
I'm at work at the moment and quite busy so I'll have a look at your suggestions and reviews a bit later and get back to you.

Thanks for being so helpful :)

[Regulus]

The 127/130 is the diameter of the mirror in mm in a newtonian or cassegrain style scope and is the measurement equivalent in reflecting scopes to the measurement across the diameter of the from lens in a refracting scope,. In Newtonian types it is the aperture. In other reflecting scopes that use a combination of lenses and mirrors, the aperture can be the from glass element, or corrector plate.
Newt(onian) and Cassegrain (SCT-, Schmidt-Cassegrain, or Mak(sutov Cassegrain or Richey-Chretien) are reflecting scopes that use a mirror as part of the optical path.
The Newtonian, including the Dobsonian, use mirrors exclusively to present the light to the eye-piece for magnification.
Cassegrain types use a combination of mirrors and lenses in various configurations.
Both types are reflecting and these two articles should give u a good overview.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflecting_telescope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassegrain_reflector#Schmidt-Cassegrain

The Cassegrain type is the dearer because of the often large glass lenses, and often much dearer than a Newtonian type.
Hope this helps, but please don't hesitate to ask. If I cannot help then someone else will.
I am famous among my friends for taking the time to decide. That bodgy alt-az took about 2 days to build after thinking the process thru for 2-3 months. But I think the time spent thinking helped make it the best it could be. Same with scopes when you don't have a never ending supply of money to throw at them.
I know the Celestron 127 (and I think the Vixen 130) use an element in the bottom of the focuser to increase the magnification and allow the tube to be very short.
Trev
P.S. Here is the review that makes me think seriously about getting one for my self as a grab-and-go with a bit more aperture than my 150 f12 Maksutov-Cassegrain (Mak)
http://www.universetoday.com/35759/vixen-r130sf-newtonian-reflector-telescope-and-portamount-ii-right-in-the-comfort-zone/

[Renato1]

That's not a bad 6" telescope, but unless you live somewhere really dark, views of galaxies may be disappointing. You really need 8" (200mm) diameter for that. Though everything else - planets and other deep sky objects would look pretty good in it. Though it has a short f/5 focal ratio, which may mean that some wide angle eyepieces won't look so good at the edges. A longer focal length would be better.

You want a motorised telescope, which requires accurate polar alignment. Be warned, precise polar aligning isn't easy to do, even with a polar aligning scope in the equatorial mount. I always wind up with sore knees and a sore neck when I do it, so I only do it on the rare occasion I want to take photos.

However, with rough polar aligning and just using the two knobs on that telescope, you would have a satisfactory view. Same goes for a dobsonian telescope, where one just pushes it around.

The other thing you can do, is just wait and keep checking out the second hand telescopes listed here. Some great deals do come up.

Regards,
Renato

[AnotherNewbie]

I'm liking the look of that Vixen. Your right about the reviews, people all over the place are raving about it.
However this brings some more questions (sorry, but hey at least I'm not asking if it has 500X magnification like the one I saw at Toys'R'Us right).

Firstly does anyone here have experience with it that they'd like to share?

Does this one have, and I quote "sufficient back focus to enable it to be used for prime focus photography" as stated by raymo, which I assume means can I use my DSLR with it, or am I stuck pointing my iPhone camera down the eyepeice?

Regarding deep space viewing (i.e galaxys, nebulae) I was under the impression that for deep space viewing I need a moonless night out in the country somewhere, but its been suggested I could do it in my light polluted suburban Sydney backyard if I bought a 200mm? I was expecting to only be able to see solar system and a few star clusters.


As a complete newbie would a goto mount be of any use to me? What if I couldn't do the alignment thingo, could I just use it as a motorised mount and have the batteries push it around the sky then set it track an object once I find something interesting, until I get a bit more experience that is?

I have had a look at Bintel and Andrews Comms. Bintel only seem to have a limited range/brands, and Andrews website is really difficult to use. Any other recommendations for an Aust store with Aust stock. How about AstroShop that was linked here? There are heaps out there, just don't know which one to use.

Oh and 1 thing I'm confused about, A Dobsonian type telescope, thats just a reflector (Newt) on a specific Dobsonian mount right?

I remember some years ago visiting an amateur astronomer gathering at The Oaks just talking to some of the guys there. They were all very polite and eager to show me the heavens, I saw alot of things that night but one that I distinctly remember is one of them showing me the star cluster that Subaru use in their logo, I don't remember what direction it was but I do remember it was down low in the sky. I don't why that Subaru cluster stuck in my head, it just did. I am hoping to be able to share with my daughter these sort of things and hopefully leave some lasting memorys. What started all this is she got an elchepo scope for $60 out of the toy cataloge they send home from preschool. It is pretty crap but we pointed it at the moon as she saw the all detail not visible to the naked eye and she was truly astounded. And hey if she gets bored of it, its always been a fascination for me o as long as I get something half decent I will be happy.

I am seriously considering this Vixen - R130Sf Newtonian with GOTO mount (http://myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-068A2)
Can anyone give me some feedback on the ALL-VIEW GOTO Alt-Az mount? Or another sturdy goto mount? I'm obsessed with mounts!!

P.S I didn't want to go 2nd hand as at my experience level I wouldn't know what to look for as far as previous damage goes.

[Regulus]

Con the back focus would be fine on this because the focuser barrel unscrews halfway along to take the t-mount. Even if it didn't a cheap spacer would provide it. They come in a variety of sizes.
I really like that choice with the goto mount. Worth the dollars because you don't need to southern alignment. With this you can get good results by using the two brightest stars in your sky at any time of year. From that information it will track for you.
The scope has a thread to take a T-mount so you don't need the adapter but just the Canon T-mount ( http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DSLR-Camera-Mount-Adapter-T-Ring-for-Canon-EOS-M42x0-75mm-for-Telescope-New-/150879143355?pt=AU_Cameras_Telescop es_Binoculars&hash=item23211905bb )
Setting up an EQ mount and finding the south pole star group for polar aligning may be difficult if you have a fair bit of light pollution, since they are not the brightest. And you need to make sure the EQ mount you buy has a polar scope because not all do.
This alt-az goto is an easy and quick solution and you should have it up and running within minutes of taking it outside.
Yes a Dobsonian is a Newtonian on the dob base. They are the best way to get lots of aperture cheapish. They are fun and frustrating at the same time because you have to work out how to find things from sky maps and it isn't always easy.
I'm still trying to find Neptune in one after a few years, whereas with this goto it's a push button affair.
I hope someone will give you a report on the scope because I will be interested too.
Best of luck
Trev
Another review :-)
http://www.scopereviews.com/page1ai.html#2

[mariner10]

G'day Con, I've just been going through this thread and was wondering, are you a member of an astronomical group/society?
If not I would suggest maybe think about joining and get out to as many events as possible and talk to the owners of the many different types of telescopes that will be there. I've found this to be the best type of research in the past and you can actually see what you may be getting for your money and how the scopes perform.

[AnotherNewbie]

Not as yet Steve, I am planning on visiting www.sasi.net.au (http://www.sasi.net.au/) at their next meet.
(http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/www.sasi.net.au)

[rustigsmed]

Hi Con,

Firstly, while there has been some good advice, I'll add my 2 cents, having owned a 6" reflector on a non electronic equatorial mount (my first telescope), and later a 12" dob, and finally a 12" newt on an electronic equatorial mount.

My suggestion would be to get an 8" dob. Why? because it will give you the best views for the price. If what you want is a good view at the eyepiece a dob will get you the best for the money. An 8" newt gathers something like 46% more light than a 6". and really is the sweet spot, 6 leaves you wanting more, 8 hits the nail on the head. The main difference is the resolution on the planets.

I wouldn't bother with an equatorial mount unless you were going for photography and then the minimum mount i'd recommend would be a skywatcher HEQ5.

It is also easier to use and setup. an equatorial mount and a Newtonian results in all sorts of neck positions. a dob is just easy and works and you don't end up breaking your back trying to look through the eyepiece. while my dob is goto, I often use it without power meaning its just normal. here is an example at the recent Saturn / moon occultation it was all 'manual' https://www.flickr.com/photos/80336656@N07/14827909245/in/photostream/lightbox/
You can also upgrade a dob to be 'goto' down the track when more funds become available. it will then track an object for you and make planetary photography easier and some bright deep sky photography possible with exposures up to 25 seconds.

also looking through scopes at a astro club is the best way of getting an idea of what you are after. My recommendation: while a 6" will be good for a while you want to go bigger later on, an 8" will go the distance. You can photograph the planets through a dob, if you want deep space stuff you will need a much more expensive equatorial mount.

All the best with your decision,

Rusty

[AnotherNewbie]

Just rang AstroShop and while he said the Vixen 130 is a good scope, he recommended this (http://myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-041B) 8' dob. Can anyone give me an idea of how high it is, and how high the eyepeice would be? It seems like it would be awkward to lug around and not the sort of thing that would fit in the boot of a smallish car. Oh and would it be any good optically?

I really don't like the idea of pushing a dob around the sky, I think I'd much prefer a mount with couple of knobs for fine tuning.

Edit: Russel I didn't see your post when I wrote mine. Your pretty much repeating what the guy at AstroShop advised. My only concern is the expense of turning a dob into a goto, and its size.

[mariner10]

It's a good idea Con, you won't regret it.
You'll get good and varied advice from places like this forum but it can still be overwhelming and there's nothing quite like trying before buying.
Most if not all amateur astronomers won't have an issue showing you views through their eye pieces and explaining their equipment and from there you should be able to formulate a good idea of what you want. And don't be afraid to ask how much they paid for their gear. Good luck.

[Camelopardalis]

It's a question of whether you want to see something or whether you want to find something... I've used goto systems for years and there is a small learning curve when you first get it, you need to be familiar with a few of the brighter stars in the sky (hint: use a planisphere or smart phone app ;) ) to be able to teach the mount where it is. Unless you trip over it or move it, you would need to do this once per evening. I tolerate this because I like to see stuff, as unlike some I don't get a big sense of achievement from finding stuff. (that's not strictly true, I have a small refractor that I use completely manually)

An 8" Dob should fit in the boot - or back seat - of most small cars...unless you drive a Smart car or a Fiat 500, you'd probably be OK.

For the price, to get goto you're trading in aperture and light grasp for the computerised system. Unless you're in the CBD or have a street lamp in your garden, I'd expect you'd be able to see some of the brighter galaxies from your spot, and you'll be able to see open clusters, globular clusters (fuzzy blobs that would resolve into stars from a darker site), some of the brighter nebulae...and you can always drive somewhere darker :D

IMO, from the city it's not going to be a night and day difference between the 5" and 8"...and from a dark site you'd see more from both...but obviously more detail and fainter objects from the larger scope.

Oh and +1 for getting out and trying before you buy...

[raymo]

You don't need to be familiar with any stars to use the Celestron SLT series of go to scopes. you can use any bright stars for alignment.
If you get an SLT, be sure to follow Trevor's advice, and get the 127 Mak.
The 130 tube is too long for the mount, and therefore somewhat
unstable. You can always trade up to a larger scope later if the interest is maintained.
raymo

[Camelopardalis]

The reason I mention it is because doing an auto-2-star alignment is a lot quicker than doing a sky align :thumbsup:

[rustigsmed]

No worries

- The tube length is 1.2 metres the base will add some height. but the eyepiece will be around 1.2m off the ground when looking straight up. it will obviously be lower on the 45deg angle etc.
- for ease of transportation it will probably fit in the car as one unit or you could separate them which you would probably want to do anyway. Or if you are worried about space a collapsible would do the trick http://myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-041E

I have the 12" version of this and it is very well made.
- optically it will be good, as long as you collimate it before use.
- ask how much upgrading it to goto would cost. I have a feeling it may be only be able to be done on the black diamond model (which is what I linked above - as far as the skywatcher products go).

Trying not to bombard you with options but you may find that instead of upgrading the dob to goto you buy an eq mount (eg HEQ5) and you could put the telescope tube onto it when photographing deep sky and mount it on the dob when looking visually.

I know what you mean about fine tuning, and yes while an eq mount will be able to make good fine tune movements, having the tube and eyepiece in a comfortable spot wont happen most of the time - trust me this is not that user friendly - plus you will probably have to use a smaller sized telescope offering less impressive views. The dob will get you to your object quicker and will be in a more comfortable position for viewing and give you much finer views due to its light grasp and resolution.

Astronomy can be frustrating even when you have the right equipment etc, it sounds to me that you should perhaps save a bit more in the first place and buy a goto dob. the last thing you want to do is spend $800 on something that doesn't really do what you want it to. it could put you off astronomy or spending more in the long run due to upgrading to what you "should" have got in the first place (or you may have many years of enjoyment with it :D).

a goto dob you can set up with a simple 2 star alignment and tell the handset what you want it to find thereafter (or try a manual dob at the astronomy club to see how the nudging annoys you).

the cheapest I can find is http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Dobsonian/Orion-SkyQuest-XT8G/1471/productview.aspx in an 8" however it is sold out, it might be worth seeing if they are restocking at the same price.

In the mean time there is plenty you can do with your canon and naked eye. you can create landscape shots of the milky way and constellations, construct panorama's (stitch together images to nab the milky way, make interesting night time timelapses, photograph the up coming lunar eclipse. check out the nightscapes section in images for some inspiration. :thumbsup: http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=49

Edit - I see Andrews have the upgrade kit for the black diamond flex tubes only, they have it at $699 for the upgrade.

[barx1963]

Con
Having used dobs of several sizes (8", 12" and 20") as well as EQ mounted newts (ie with those "couple of knobs") there is no way I would use anything other than a dob for visual astronomy. Finding objects is far more intuitive and setup is easy (carry it out, put it down, collimate and start using).

Malcolm

[AnotherNewbie]

Don't take this the wrong way, but your all making this more difficult.

I have emailed AstroShop about the cost of converting either of those 8' dobs to goto.

I'll see what the answer is, I think my decision might be based on what AstroShop come back with.

Oh and I have been hearing alot about this collimate proceedure, which I'm assuming has something to do with fine tuning the mirror position? Actually don't bother answering that, I'll work it out when I get a scope.

[rustigsmed]

no worries Con, we are all just passionate that you get something that you and your daughter will enjoy for years to come :thumbsup:

You will need to get the flex dob to be able to upgrade
https://www.myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-041E

the upgrade kit is listed as $699 at Andrews communications
http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-content-section-10-skywatcher.htm

[AnotherNewbie]

Can someone clear something up for me. The Vixen 130Sf is a Newt on a tripod type mount right. The SkyWatcher 8-inch F/6 Collapsible Dob is also a newt on a different mount. Whats to stop me putting the Skywatcher onto a goto or a eq tripod mount arrangement later on?

[rustigsmed]

there is no issue mounting a non flex tube. you just need to buy the rings etc to attach to the eq mount.

the flex tube maybe possible - the truss' do come down a fair way, I reckon it would be ok on my 12" version, as you want the rings closer to the base (or the base closer to the rings) due to the weight distribution, this is probably ok on the 8". it would easier to be definitive by going into the shop. actually as its f6 you will have a bit more room to play with.

[AnotherNewbie]

I'm just curious, would either of the scopes mentioned be able to produce something like http://www.iceinspace.com.au/vbiis/customavatars/avatar13088_1.gif or http://www.iceinspace.com.au/vbiis/customavatars/avatar15633_2.gif to view, not photograph.

(Russell and Dunk, mind If I borrow your avatars? :) )

Edit: Just found this (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=124655) in the for sale section, worth it for a toy to play with? How hard is to clean a mirror?
"Skywatcher Heritage 130mm Collapsible Table Top Dob. 2 Years old, good condition, mirror slightly dusty, inevitable marks on dovetail, original packing and documentation. Original 10mm and 25mm eyepieces. Missing small end cap and box for 25mm ep. (I think it may have arrived with that ep in the focuser) Hasn't been used much since I got an 8" GSO 18 months ago.

$150"

[rustigsmed]

Hi Con,

quite frankly a 5" wont give you anywhere near the detail, Jupiter will be very very very small and bright, you maybe able to discern two darker bands across the disc.

when it comes to planets aperture becomes super important, 8" is where it all comes together.

I would avoid table-top dobs at all costs.

[AnotherNewbie]

Really, does that include the Vixen 130Sf I am considering? Its also a 5 inch!!

[rustigsmed]

yes it does. having owned a 6" reflector I wouldn't recommend anything less than an 8" if you are interested in visually looking at the planets.

they do give lovely widefield views but will be disappointing on planets - other than the moon (as the moon is so [apparently] big).

[AnotherNewbie]

Looks like I'm going for a 8" dob. Now to pick a brand/supplier. What are bintel branded dobs like? They seem to be cheaper than the rest. They also have a 10" dob for $700, whats the catch? And would a 10" be better still?

[rustigsmed]

they are exactly the same as GSO dobs - just rebadged.
I have heard rumours that they don't reach prime focus with a dslr - without modifying it in someway. but someone else might be able to chime in on that.
I can vouch for the skywatcher flex tubes, build quality was great, held collimation well and could reach prime focus without any modification. they are a bit more expensive though but worth it in my opinion.
but perhaps check with the supplier re: prime focus with cameras and possible modifications.

[raymo]

I had the 10" Skywatcher Flex Dob for 3 yrs. Brilliant, held collimation
super well, prime focus no problem, and fitted in my Corolla hatch easily.
Easy to carry in two parts; scope without base is 14.5 kg. Obviously,
the 8" would be less, about 9-10kg.
raymo

[TheFacelessMen]

If you are going to buy a dob for visual and also for easy portability or easy remounting definitely go for the 10inch.

In my opinion this is the sweet spot for good visuals and portability and will give you better visuals than an 8 or 6 inch.

[Sheppie]

Definitely go 10". It's not such a big difference in price whereas huge difference in quality. Why spend money on 6" or even 8" if in a few weeks you'll decide it's not enough :)

(I did that once - so I know :D)

[AnotherNewbie]

Ok so let me pose this question, in the skywatcher range, apart from portability what is the difference between a 10" solid and collapsible?

[raymo]

Absolutely no difference in performance, but is easier to carry, just carry the tube assy by one of the three rods, like carrying a suitcase. It is far less intrusive standing inthe corner of a room, and fits much more easily into a small car. Brilliant value for money. I have no affiliation with the
brand.
raymo

[AnotherNewbie]

Ok so I have pretty much decided on a 10" dob (solid), I have narrowed it down to the Skywatcher 10" or the Bintel 10". I think I'd prefer to buy the Bintel only because of the recommendations of great customer service, but not if its a poorp performing telescope.
The only difference I can see is the Bintel F/5 where as the Skywatcher is F/4.7, and the Bintel comes with an extra EP and a moon filter.
Advice, suggestions??

[rustigsmed]

visually the performance will be the same but again, I don't think you can reach prime focus with a dslr on the bintel/gso solid tube, as for the solid tube skywatcher I would guess that it would also be a problem but you would need to check with the supplier.

[Camelopardalis]

If you're interested in buying from Bintel and as you're in Sydney, drop into their store...they don't bite!

Not being funny, but a solid tube 10" Dob is quite a size for a chap who was earlier worried about it fitting in a small car :lol: but go and see...and take a tape measure ;)

[raymo]

As far as I know all Skywatcher Newts will reach prime focus. The 8" and 10" collapsible and solid tubes do for sure, unless something has changed recently.
raymo

[rustigsmed]

no worries Raymo I know the black diamond series do, I wasn't sure on the white coloured tube models.

[AnotherNewbie]

Update, so after 3 pages and 46 posts I bought the Bintel 10" yesterday and it was delivered yesterday. I had an appointment last night which didn't see me get home until about 9:00pm. Just enough time to set it up and have a quick look at the moon (the planets were below the horizon by that time) which did look good I must admit. I tried to find something else to look at by swing around but by now it was getting too late to do anything serious. I have a starwalk app on my iPad which shows galaxies and nebula (well apparently it does but I haven't been able to work out how yet), so I might use that to find something a bit more interesting.

One thing I am annoyed about is after asking the Bintel salesman on the phone three separate times if this telescope was able to prime focus with a DSLR and was told that it could, and so I ordered a Canon adapter and a T piece. I get it set up with the camera hoping to get some great shots of the moon, and I can't focus :confuse3:. So I'll be calling them about that this morning after they open just to make sure its not something I am doing wrong and to depict my disappointment. If not there is a mod I have read about which involves installing longer collimation screws and some longer stiffer springs, which apparently brings the mirror close enough to be able to prime focus. And before you say it yes I know a dob isn't suitable for astro-photography, but I was hoping I could get some shots of the moon and maybe do some video and join frames for the fainter stuff, hey I'm on a budget at this point.

Ok about it size, yes its big, but I do own a dual cab ute so transporting it is no problem. The reason I asked about that earlier is because we do alot of camping (where there is absolutely no light pollution), and when camping the ute gets close to full with a quad bike and various other camping things. I have resigned to the fact that I'm going to have to buy a small entry level scope for camping (or maybe carry it on the roof racks).

Oh look its just after 8:00am, what time does Bintels open?

Edit: Just got a text from my wife, apparently my 5yo wont shut up about Saturn, Jupiter and the moon, so thats a good thing I suppose.

[rustigsmed]

Hi Con,

Congrats with your purchase a 10" scope is a lot of light gathering :thumbsup:
the moon gets more interesting through the eyepiece when its not so full, scan along the terminator and you'll see the craters and mountains more easily. unfortunately deep sky objects get 'drowned out' by the bright moonlight so around full moon isn't that great for observing, unless its the planets.

yes the bintel/gso dobs don't make prime focus. you'll have to modify the scope or use a 2x barlow - but that 'magnifies' it.

all the best

:thumbsup:

[julianh72]

As others have said, your scope may not be able to bring a DSLR to prime focus without some modifications, but I find it is MUCH easier to get a new telescope / camera combination working in daylight hours.

Pick a distant high-contrast target (a building or tree on the horizon for example), and then rack the focuser through it's range. Even if you can't reach proper focus, a high contrast target in daylight hours will mean you should be able to make out "something" (even if it's just a vague shape, or a suggestion of light and dark), and you'll be able to work out roughly how much extra in-focus you need, play with your Barlows, etc, to get an idea of what set-up will work best for you.

Once you know how to get reasonable focus in daylight, you can try again at night, but this brings additional challenges. If you have a webcam or a DSLR with "live capture" capability, you can watch what is happening on the computer screen while you play with focus and target alignment etc. Trying to focus a DSLR on a night-time target through the camera body viewfinder is a real challenge!

Trying to reach first focus with a new set of kit at night can be a huge challenge, because chances are you aren't even 100% sure if your target is in the field of view of the sensor, let alone whether you are close to focus or not. You will need both good alignment and good focus to even know if your target is in view on most night-time subjects.

For your first attempts at night, I suggest using the Moon, because it's bright enough to at least know whether the image is falling onto the sensor, and try to frame it so that the edge of the disc or the terminator falls across the sensor, because this will give you a high-contrast edge to try your focus on. If you have a sensor which is completely full of Moon with no edges, it can over-expose so much that you could even be close to focus without knowing it, because the brightness blows all the detail away. Once you have found some sort of recognisable image of the Moon, wind the sensor gain back if necessary to prevent over-exposure, and then you should be able to start to make out surface details such as craters and rills to improve focus. Then and only then should you start trying to find planets and other challenging targets.

Another word of warning - the extra weight of the DSLR camera body on the focuser can easily cause the telescope to shift a bit, so while you may have found your target in the eyepiece, once you put the camera on, it may deflect out of view. Again, starting with daylight targets and / or the Moon is a good idea, because you should be able to make out something to work with, even if your main target has slipped from view. Make sure your finderscope is well aligned - because it can be so hard to pick up most night-time targets using the camera viewfinder, you will be very reliant on initial positioning with an eyepiece, and then checking your telescope hasn't shifted using the finderscope after you have installed the camera body.

[Regulus]

Get a strong moon filter. Even with my f12 scope it leaves a large black spot in my vision, and having used a 10" Dob myself I know that it can leave you almost blind for 30+ minutes. The moon looks better with a filter, and if the cap has a secondary hole in it (usually about 50mm) use that to view it. It's a lot of light to be focusing into your eye.
Enjoy it Con, they are a great scope.

[AnotherNewbie]

Just an update, last night was a clear night so we dragged the scope outside early in the evening before the moon came up, and used the iPad to find Saturn. Wow, what can I say, it wasn't too big in the EP, but it was so crisp and sharp, and I was able to make out a little bit of colour (I suspect a moon filter will improve the colours and contrast). We did not have much time so we just pointed it at the milky way but didn't spot anything of interest. I am going to wait until the weekend to play around the camera.

Afterwards we went to www.sasi.net.au (http://www.sasi.net.au) where we spoke to few people and found out my new telescope has their seal of approval, apparently almost every member has a 10" dob. Then we got to look at Saturn (again) through a 16" x 2500mm (I think, that was a visual measurement) which did look good (personally I thought it looked better through my scope, but that was earlier in the night when it was a lot higher).

My next session is going to be an attempt to find omega centuras (sp?), which I am told is a "handful" of stars tightly bound by gravity some near the southern cross.

So I can't go a whole post without asking a question can I. What eyepieces do I want? The scope came with a 2" 26mm and two 1.25" in 15mm and 9mm plossi (which I heard are crap, but they looked good to me). I was thinking of a barlow for the planets and maybe better quality EP for the rest. Also assuming highest usable power of around 500-550X, what's the best way to do that. Would a 6mm on a 2X Barlow be better that a 3mm (do they even make them that small?). Also remember this is for solar system viewing so usually bright things.

[barx1963]

Con
Glad to hear that the new scope is getting used. And very glad to hear that the folks at SASI are endorsing your decision.
The view of Saturn through the 16" I assume was at higher power? If so the image can often look worse even disregarding the height of it above the target as higher magnification can also magnify the atmospheric distortions.
Which lead me to my next point regarding eyepieces. My usual advice to beginners is stick to using the supplied eyepieces for a while. There are several reasons for this but the main ones are that it is very easy to spend a lot of money on eyepieces and not really get the benefit you thought.
The 26mm EP will probably be not a bad choice for a all round deep space EP. With the plossls, you may have heard that they are "crap", but go back a few years and plossls were pretty advanced EPs. They have a simple design so are inexpensive and their main issue is at short focal lengths the eye relief can get a bit tight. That said a 15 and 9mm should both be useable in your scope. By all means try a barlow, I am not a big fan myself but they have the advantage when used with a given eyepiece, the eye relief stays the same as what it is with that EP.
Just be very careful of interpreting highest useful manification. My 20" I think has a theoretical highest useful mag of something over 600x ( I have never really bothered working it out!:)) but i have never pushed it beyond 317x, simply because the nights when going over 250x are so rare and really magnification is not really that helpful.
My first thing would be have a go using the 15mm (83X) and then the 9mm (139x) to observe Saturn and see what get the best detail. Try especially to see if you can crack Cassini's division in the rings or any of the faint banding on the planet itself. Then think about how cranking up the mag to say 208x (using a 6mm EP) would help.

Cheers

Malcolm