Takahashi TSA-120 vs. TOA-130

[thomqos]

The TOA-130NS has but 10mm more aperture than the TSA-120; Yet there is about $1.5k difference in price between them.

I notice the OTAs are substantially different in weight - much more so than would be expected for the extra aperture alone: 6.7kg vs. 10.5kg.

So can someone please explain to me why that extra 10mm aperture is worth paying $1.5k for? Is it worth it for what a purely visual observer (i.e.: me) would see through the eyepiece?

[brian nordstrom]

:) Russel , as a visual observer , save your self 3+k and grab a C9.25, either standard or Edge , or if you need ( want? ) a Takahashi ,,, get a M210 , both of these will beat any 120mm or 130mm scope , APO or other wise hands down on every object .

Both of these CAT's are lighter than the TOA130 by the way.

Brian.

[raymo]

Absolutely not. I personally have never understood why a purely visual
user would have a small scope at all. I would much rather see lots more
targets nicely, than fewer objects beautifully, but less brightly. For me, aperture rules for visual work. You could get a magnificent larger scope for the price of a mid size APO. Just my view.
raymo

[casstony]

I own a TSA120 and C11 Edge and tend to use the refractor for planets since it takes little effort to set up and get cooled and my observing conditions are usually unstable. I use the C11 mainly for deep sky because it gathers more light and I think both of my scopes are great. If I could only have one scope I'd keep the C11.

I think the 130 has a wider air gap between the elements and has higher performance over a wider range of wavelengths but I would choose the lighter and cheaper 120 for visual (and probably for imaging too).

[rally]

You are not paying for aperture so much as you are paying for a higher level of chromatic correction and quality of optics.
The TOA is an acronym for Tak. Ortho Apochromatic Vs Tak Super Apochromat (TSA)
Have a look at a longitudinal aberration plots for these and you will see the difference.
The TOA series is highly corrected (near perfectly !) from well into the Infrared to well into the UV spectrum.

Like most things - if you want 50% of perfection - its cheap, if you want 85% its getting more expensive, if you want 95% its getting really expensive and if you want 97% it starts getting ridiculous.

For visual I think it would be hard to justify and difficult to discern.

Rally

[Kunama]

+1 :thumbsup: For purely visual the better choice would be the TSA120, cheaper, lighter, cools quicker, smaller mount required. I doubt you would see any difference visually.

I think there are many valid reasons to choose a 5" refractor over light- buckets for visual but that has been discussed to death previously.
The TSA120 is an excellent scope and can be used on an EQ5 or similar mount as well as any of the small AltAz mounts. It is ready for viewing immediately upon being carried outside up to 100x and as it cools will take up to 300x in good conditions. However, I too would recommend the Mewlon 210 as an alternative for visual.

[issdaol]

Very well put :)

Just a visual inspection of the 2 scopes will also show the differences.

I use my Mewlon 300 for Deep Space and Planetary. The TSA-120 just cant keep up for deep space work.

But 1 very good reason for a refractor over a mirror/light bucket is Solar .

In terms of visual between the TSA120 and TOA130 you will not notice the difference. I had to make the same choice myself and went with the TSA120 saving the $1.5k and putting that money into a couple of nice EP's.

[clive milne]

Yep... in a lot of ways they are both similar to a really good telescope, only smaller.

[Kal]

The TOA is a completely different objective design to the TSA - it has two ED lenses in it's triplet objective, and of all refractors on the market today it has the best colour correction.

If you are using the scope for visual though, I doubt you would be able to tell the difference. The 10mm extra aperture will make a slight difference, the extra weight would definately make a difference.

I have a 5" apo and a C11. I prefer the C11 for visual astronomy.

[cohiba]

Cant speak for the 120 but I own a TOA130, it will blow you away probably the sharpest views you will ever get, but yep its reasoanbly heavy, and a bit expensive. The only down side with Takahashi are the accesories now they are bloody expensive

[Exfso]

The only down side to Tak scopes, if anything goes wrong they cannot be fixed here in Aust despite claims by some that they are able to work on them. They have to go back to Japan, I can relate to this from bitter experience.
Aust need a company like TNR to do local maintenance of the Tak scopes.

[gregbradley]

The best visual scope I have had was a Tak FS152. Not ideal for imaging though as too much chromatic aberration but fabulous for visual.

And yes a C11 is superb for visual especially if using the tour function of the GPS mounted versions. Very quick and easy.

Greg.

[thomqos]

Copied from my post on CN.....

Thanks guys for all your opinions.
I decided to go with the TSA-120... Am waiting on the invoice to come through. Lead time of a few weeks. Have ordered rings for it from Joe at Parallax.
It was a very tough decision for me. Could have gone either way. Am sure I would have been thrilled to the back teeth with the TOA, but in the end, my decision came down to just the following:-

a). Cost. The money I saved will pay to rebuild my 10" f6 so I can use it on the G-11 (rotating rings, moonlight focuser, etc.). My wife has been very supportive of my going through this process, so I need to reciprocate that support by showing at least some restraint in my spending; I've just purchased a TSA-120, G-11, AP Maxbright, rings, etc. I also need a hard case still & I plan to get a 41mm panoptic for the TSA, as well as a high power nagler/delos, so I think I've had a fair go at spending money! Additionally, I have kids to educate, mortgage to pay, etc.. So I decided to draw the line at the TSA-120.

http://www.cloudynights.com/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.png. Portability. I wanted a scope which will be happy on a lightweight mounting one day if needed. The TSA-120 looks to be a pretty portable scope for an almost 5" refractor.

If I didn't already have a 10", I would have gone for the TOA.

I just hope the scope lives up to my expectations... though people overwhelmingly talk glowingly of it, I've nonetheless read some stories about scopes having to go back to Takahashi in Japan several times to fix problems. It's a little unnerving spending such a large amount of money on something you've never actually seen up close or touched... or indeed looked through.

I'll post back after first light...

Russ

[RD400C]

Don't worry, when the box does arrive and you unpack the scope, it will be better than you had expected. I'm looking forward to reading your first light impressions. Good selection from a huge range of possibilities.

[Exfso]

That cloudy nights link does not want to open for me, I have tried IE and Chrome.

[beren]

Congrats on the purchase.....went through the same dilemma as yourself with the TOA but ended up with the TSA-120. Unfortunately work commitments and weather have only allowed a handful of outings with it but I think you will enjoy it :). The 120mm still has some reasonable weight to it I think you will be surprised.
I have seen very little negative feedback from Tak users although Peter here had bad luck with his TOA. It's unfortunate AEC doesn't cater to the same degree as the American Tak dealer TNR but I would rather have a scope sent back to the Japanese factory for repair.

[Exfso]

Yeah the bad luck was the result of an accident causing the collimation to go slightly out, and getting recommended by the local distributor to an Australian company that said they could re-collimate the Toa130. They instead totally stuffed it up and it had to go back to Japan for a complete re-build. I was totally miffed I can tell you.:mad2: It is as new now, but it cost me big dollars. So if anyone tells you that there is someone in Australia that can fix a Tak Refractor, they are talking crap. You would not believe what the Tak rep told me about the job these guys did on the scope and the condition it was in when they received it. Absolute amateurs!!

[netwolf]

is it not the same with most refractor telescopes and even some others that you must send back to manufacturer for repair.
I am fortunate that thus far my only requirements have been for SCT's and Bintel have been excellent in dealing with this for me, time and again.

But take AP, TEC, or William Optics does anyone repair those here locally?
And is it any less expensive to send these to there manufacturer for repair.

[Kunama]

I don't think I would be letting anyone in Oz fiddle with my refractors, no matter
what brand. ;)

[thomqos]

Yes, i have nothing but praise for bintel, based on my dealings with them over the years. Years ago I brought a focuser from them & didn't like it. Mike took it back, no questions asked. That said, refractors do appear to be a specialty item when it comes to collimation.

[issdaol]

I would not be too concerned about the Takahashi supplier here.

In my experience with them they have gone out of their way to look after me and give me the best possible price. In fact the level of sales service from them has been equal to and superior to Bintel (who I also think are very good) in a lot of instances.

However I dont expect them to be repair experts if anything happens or goes wrong with my gear. But I am sure they will help facilitate any warranty work or repairs that need to be sent back to Takahashi in Japan.

[thomqos]

Yes I agree. My experience is all good so far. Prompt & helpful.

[thomqos]

Does anyone have suggestions for a locally available hard case for the TSA-120?

[brian nordstrom]

:) Look at the link here for Astronomy Alive , they do a very good custom case , I am getting one made now for my iStar 127mm , I will report here when it arrives .
Brian.

[RD400C]

I found that a pelican product has done the job for me. Have a look at the range. Cheers Garth

[LewisM]

I may have a spare aluminium hard case that may fit it. Will measure it tomorrow.

[thomqos]

I looked at some pelican cases online. Found one that was about 100 x 30 x 30cm, but it was dearer than the tak. Case! Close to $1k.

[RD400C]

Have a look at this one, it fits a TOA 130 ok, I think the TSA would fit in with accessories etc

http://www.seaoptics.com.au/products/equipment-cases/pelican/very-large/1740-long

[SkyWatch]

I use a Skywatcher one for my TSA102. Fits it really well with a bit or room to spare (and mine has the fixed dew-shield so is longer).
Seem to be two types available now: http://www.astroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-064C
and this one:
http://www.ozscopes.com.au/skywatcher-ed120-bd1201-ota-aluminium-case.html

One of those might fit.

Based on my 102 I am sure you will love the view through the 120!

- Dean

[casstony]

The dew shield on the TSA120 is quite wide - it would pay to measure it and ask if it fits in the Skywatcher case before purchase.

[thomqos]

Thanks. Will check it out...

[thomqos]

Well here's a 1st light report - finally.

My tsa-120 rolled up yesterday & I took it out last night for first viewing.
Transparency was'nt great & seeing a little average.

I don't have a finder yet, but I've hooked up a telrad to the top mounting ring; I got the parallax rings & joe nastasi was great; he made up a little aluminium plate which bolts to the top ring so I could stick my telrad on it. I highly recommend doing this.

I first pointed to saturn and stuck in my 35mm panoptic for 26x.. I got a little worried. Then I switched to a 17.3mm delos for about 50x... Something was still wrong; no rings, or even at least an elongated disk! Now I got more worried! Then I went to 150x and realised I was actually looking at mars :-) Oops! It was pretty small with maybe a hint of detail, but the seeing was swimming so I gave up & went back to low power.

47 tuc. Looked really nice - best at about 50x. However, I was entranced by the view of ngc6752 in pavo for quite some time, studying it with a variety of magnifications from 26x up to 100x. Like 47 tuc, i found it looked best in my 17.3 delos at about 50x. I could see maybe two dozen tiny pinpoint stars superimposed over a diffuse glow. A very pleasing view. Ngc253 looked washed out, which I think was a testament to the transparency last night. Certainly the low power views were pleasing and sharp. I did look at 1 bright star at 150x to check out the airy disk.. It looked very clean. Only my view of mars wasn't too pleasing - at low power the disk didnt really look like a disk, with what I thought was a little flaring to one side as I racked to either side of focus - but maybe that to some extent was because at that stage I was expecting saturn ;-). However, at 150x the disk was clearly defined & gibbous. Noticeably dimmer than in my 10", as expected.

I am pleased so far with the scope. Build quality is absolutely exceptional and the scope looks soooo much better than it does in photos, which don't do it justice.

My other scope is a 10" f6 newt. which has first rate optics. At this stage, the view through the tak. so far is certainly just as sharp, but I don't think better. Some people promote refractors as having almost magical powers, but the reality is that they are bound by the same laws of physics as a top quality newtonian. We'll see how it stacks up better over time.

Though I will do side by side comparisons with my newt, my first experience with the tak. Certainly didn't leave me wanting for more aperture.

The scope is a joy to use & sits like a rock on my g11 mount, which will eventually also mount my newt. once I rebuild it into a new OTA.

[garymck]

Hi,

I too have just got a TSA 120, and I also have a CPC 1100 in an observatory.

I purchased the Tak reasoning that I live in a light polluted are (Geelong ) and no matter how large an aperture I've tried fuzzies are dim or nor viewable at all. This means that targets for visual are going to be globulars, clusters, doubles, asterisms and planets. The planets are taken care of by the c11 which has excellent optics. All the other stuff is taken care of by the Tak. The view through it is aesthetically beautiful, tiny stars , high contrast, maximum resolution for the aperture. I have owned large newts with good optics, but every time I go "wow" at a view it is always when I look through a refractor....hence the TSA purchase. Something pretty dire would have to happen for this scope to part company with me. My lady has instructions to carefully pack it in to my coffin :-) when I keel over.

cheers Gary

[thomqos]

Gary,
Yes, Last night I certainly just enjoyed casually looking at star fields. Very pleasing seeing sharp stars everywhere.

What rings did you get for your scope?

Russ

[garymck]

Russ,

I got the Tak Clamshell - like it very much. Couldn't come at the Tak finderscope & bracket due to price, so used an old GSO that I airbrushed to Takahashi colors - I posted the formula for the paint elsewhere here.

cheers
Gary

[SkyWatch]

Sound great: thanks for the report.

Did you manage to get a case for it?

Happy viewing!

- Dean

[Dave47tuc]

[QUOTE

My other scope is a 10" f6 newt. which has first rate optics. At this stage, the view through the tak. so far is certainly just as sharp, but I don't think better. Some people promote refractors as having almost magical powers, but the reality is that they are bound by the same laws of physics as a top quality newtonian. We'll see how it stacks up better over time.

Though I will do side by side comparisons with my newt, my first experience with the tak. Certainly didn't leave me wanting for more aperture[/QUOTE]

Hi Russell,
Glad your TSA has arrived :thumbsup: you obviously will not get a great view of Saturn or Mars now. The Tak will not compare to your newt ;)
As we have tested many years ago that 10" of yours is some scope and will out preform many a scope.
But some may say things differently, but they have not looked or tested your 10" ;)
But the Tak will complement your Newt very nicely that's for sure.
Hope you have many satisfying nights under the stars with it :thumbsup:

[thomqos]

well i'm certainly itching to put the tak. through it's paces more.
have'nt got a hard case for it yet though; i'm stuck on that problem presently... does anyone in oz have experiences with scopeguard cases?
anyhow, my bank account is SEVERELY abused at present...!!!. so i will wait a while for the hard case decision!!!

[pluto]

I use a Tenba case with my TSA-120, it's not a hard case but it's fine for how I transport my scope. It is made of really tough nylon and has rigid walls and base, I think it would protect the scope from minor scratches and dings though not from a heavy hit. It has straps in it attached to the base which I securely fasten around the scope when it's in the case so that it doesn't move around.

Depending on how you transport and store your scope it could be an alternative to consider.
It's this model:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/53958-REG/Tenba_634_508_TTP34_TriPak.html
And here are some pics with a TSA-120 in it:
http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=726253

[thomqos]

Well last night was the 2nd time I got to use my TSA-120.. For a few reasons, I haven't been able to get it out the last couple of weeks.

The seeing was really good last night so I cranked up the magnification and OMG!!!... this scope produces great star images...!!! Achernar's Airy disk at magnification looked amazing!!! From 150-375x, I've never seen anything like this...!!!!! The lack of diffraction spikes really made it easy to see an apparently perfect airy disk. Stars just look beautiful!! Star colours seem to be presented nicely.

At 50x with averted imagination I think I could see mottling in NGC253 & NGC55 from suburban Melbourne. 47 Tuc. looked great & the scanning the LMC was fun at 26x. But I spent most of the time just looking at stars, because they look so nice!

However, not everything is perfect though... at 375x on Achernar, I could easily see false colour as the seeing caused the image to shift in & out of focus. In focus it seemed OK, but at 375x it's sometimes hard to tell whether the image is in focus or not due to the seeing.
Has anyone else noticed this with the TSA-120?

Am nonetheless very pleased with this exceptionally built scope.
Still don't have a hard case yet :-(

[issdaol]

Welcome to the TSA and Tak Family LoL :-)

I have used my TSA quite a lot across a range of the same targets.

I have noticed similar things like nice sharp stars and excellent colour rendition of stars.

In focus I have not noticed any false colour.

Also out of focus I have not noticed anything unusual either but I will pay a lot more attention on my next session

Maybe it was just an effect of the conditions?? Have you tried repeating the tests to confirm if it is consistent??

How was you intra and extra focus star test?

[Tropo-Bob]

False colour may also originate from the eyepiece, so try the same eyepiece with a reflector, if possible.

[casstony]

Probably best not to test at the limits of seeing - drop the magnification back a little so you've got a more stable image to assess.

The star test on my TSA120 is the nearest to perfect I've seen on any scope, with the symmetry on either side of focus holding all the way down to the last ring as focus is approached and no false color, though colour can be seen at times due to atmospheric conditions.

[UniPol]

Looking at intra and extra focus, sounds like a fun evening :lol: Seriously though, I have not had the pleasure of viewing through a TSA-120 however I am very happy with my TOA-130NFB, it is a real chunk of a telescope between my eyes.

[issdaol]

Exactly how I would describe my experience/tests with my TSA120

In order of decreasing probabilities I would say,

Observing conditions (including system acclimatisation)
Eyepiece
Fault with that particular TSA120

[thomqos]

Well I'm no expert when it comes to star testing, but I do know what an airy disk should look like. I have trouble with judging intra & extra focal images, because to me they always look slightly different in the same way regardless of the scope I look through. But the star image on the TSA certainly holds tightly symmetric all the way into focus, as does my 10" newt.

In terms of the false colour I mention, I was using a 6mm delos with 2.5x powermate for 375x & it seemed mainly violet. Like i said, I think the colour was only as the image defocussed with the seeing. It was not visible at 150x. Of course what will really matter is real observing :-). I have'nt been able to look at the moon yet, so I am curious to study the moon limb at high power.

The only colour I've ever noticed with my eyepieces when used in my 10" newt. Is a yellow tinge along the moon limb, mainly with my older T1 & T2 naglers.

I understand that the TOA design has better colour correction than the TSA.. Not sure how/whether that would translate into any real world differences in terms of visual use though?

I know I'm REALLY fussy.. But thats why I got a Tak! Looking forward to the moon....

[thomqos]

Well after a bit more use of the TSA and my 10" f6, it seems the colour is atmospheric/eyepiece in origin.

The TSA is quite simply an awesome scope.

On Jupiter at about 100-150x (low in Cancer) with average seeing, the 10" was much brighter as expected but I wasn't prepared to make a call on which scope revealed more detail. That requires more critical study, likely on a better night. The views were similar in respect to cloud features that could be seen.

The thing that impresses me most about the TSA is it's SHARPNESS. I find myself just happy to sit and relax and look at random star fields because they just look so nice. I am truly appreciating the jewel box for the first time. The whole Eta Carinae region is just magnificent at 26-41x (35 & 22mm panoptics).

With the 1st quarter moon low in the western sky, galaxies M83 and NGC4955 were dimly visible at 40-50x, the latter being a particularly lovely sight because of the lovely field stars which were tiny pinpoints. M104 and NGC5128 were obvious, both revealing their dust lanes. I'm really enjoying the open cluster NGC2516 in Carina for the first time now that I can get a 2.5 degree FOV.

My only slight annoyance is that the focuser operation is a tiny bit stiff for my liking.

My 10" has an excellent mirror and after comparing it side by side with the TSA for the first time, I did something; I put my name on AP's notification list for the Starfire 160! I never expect to own one, but it does suggest I'm starting to crave a little more aperture! My 10" is not quite as sharp as the Tak. and I am keen to perform more side by side comparisons of them as opportunity permits. One thing I'm always concerned about with the 10" is cool down and this doesn't seem to be an issue with the TSA.

Maybe I'll end up with a TEC 160 or 180 one day! ;)

[Allan]

Nice write-up Russell. Sounds like you are really enjoying your new Tak. I was fortunate enough to spend an hour or two observing through a TEC 160 at IISAC. It was a great scope on a nice mount with a very friendly owner. We just toured around the southern Milky Way cherry picking the best objects. It was a memorable night, but so it should when you consider the price of admission for a TEC 160.

[clive milne]

Why wait?

Here's a 152 AP for US$5500

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=882199

[issdaol]

Great report Russell,

Similar to my experiences. Don't forget it also makes a fantastic Terrestrial scope and Direct Solar scope with the addition of a Baader Hershel Wedge and now there is the Daystar Quark for Ha visuals.

This scope seems to be a real workhorse scope that keeps on impressing every single time I use it.

Cheers

[thomqos]

For what it's worth, in 1996 I had payed a deposit of several thousand dollars on a Starfire 155 EDFS and an AP mount. This was after having been impressed by a friend's AP Traveller. Wait time was 1-1.5 years from memory.

Then in 1997 I got engaged to my girlfriend and decided the money (about $13k from memory) would be better spent on a house. So I cancelled the order and AP refunded my deposit. An AP 2" barlow was part of the deal, so I still got them to at least send that to me (it's great & I still have it today).

18 years later on, I wish that I'd not cancelled my order!

Some guys hit their 40s and buy motor bikes; I'm not into motor bikes and so this was how I justified the TSA to my wife :lol:

[Amaranthus]

I've got telescopes AND a motorcycle :D

[thomqos]

:lol:

[thomqos]

Finally got a proper hard case for my TSA; The Pelican 1740.
I also recently fitted the Feathertouch micro-pinion retrofit, which is well worth the money.
Expensive case, but it's indestructible and plenty big enough to fit the scope with rings & dovetail bar. Here's how it looks.....

[thomqos]

A quick update on life with the TSA-120...

It's giving some mesmerising views of Mars at present, particularly with a no.25 red filter.. lots of detail visible just after opposition with a view centred around Terra Meridiani/Sabaea and I don't think I'm imagining the hints of white clouds.

The red filter really seems to steady the seeing as well for some reason. Had it up to 375x the other night with no problems, though the view is generally preferable at 188-250x, giving better surface brightness. Very impressed, given the modest aperture.

[jamespierce]

Late addition to this thread... we have a TSA120 and a 16" DOB so best of both worlds... The beauty of the refactor is wide fields and perfect stars, no competition when it comes to faint stuff of course.

RE: Cases - Transit Pak in Melbourne made us a beautiful custom case for far less than we could get anything commercial online from outside Oz. Pelicans are good but HUGE by comparison (and I have a large collection for camera kit and eye pieces)

For visual TSA120 ... for imaging the 130. We actually downgraded from an FS128 because the weight and mounting was a not inconsiderable consideration.

[Kunama]

Good to see you're still enjoying the TSA120 Russell, a very nice scope.
I have finished testing the Takahashi fleet and ended up with a couple of nice ones, but I guess I never met a Tak I didn't like.... I too found that 180 to 250 gave great views.



Pic of the Transit-Pak please James :question:

[jamespierce]

Will do next time it's not under a pile of other gear... just looks like a standard band roadie gear case with custom foam lining...