CCD advice

[graham.hobart]

Hello folks, the good Wife has allowed me to expand my collection again and I am pondering which way to go since I got my RC 10. My set up is now an Orion 110mm f6 refractor with a standard though robust focuser, and an RC 10 with soon to get starlight focuser on it.
All riding on a PMX.
I have had in the past used a QSI mono which I sold but I think I now regret selling- at the time because I found LRGB imaging too time consuming. Especially with the uneven skies down here. I reckon best seeing would be about 2 mostly.
I am wondering about another OSC -maybe the atik 4000, but would seek your advice as to how this would go with the RC 10 +/- a reducer or flattener. I am trying to find cameras with a small flat foot print =rather than a long cylinder as the room at the back of the scope when slewing is limited - unless the reducer allows me to remove one of the extension tubes at the back of the rc 10 and hence shortens the imaging train.
I am reasonably happy with my QHY 8 on the Orion so I suppose I could argue for a mono as I already have an osc. I like the sensor size so would be going along that size or at least much bigger than the SXVR H9C that I have. I don't know what people think about the Atiks?
I wondered about an SBIG STT but the camera looks quite big and with filters OAg ect would be enormous I think.
Persuade me to go back to LRGB and maybe get another QSI? - I did like the way that camera seamlessly interacted with the Sky X camera so I could do auto pointing runs- something that my Canon and mt QHY have failed in so far. I also notice the Atik driver for SKy X is a beta. Anyone tried it?
Help?
Budget about 5-6K
Cheers
Graham:shrug:

[Shiraz]

Hi Graham. following comments based on limited experience.

The QHY8 is an oldie but a goody - can't see that you would gain much by going for an alternative OSC. It has fairly big pixels and should match well with the RC10 if it can be fitted into the available space. Alternatives with other chips have better cooling/shutter etc, but they need them - the Sony chip works well in a very basic camera.

If looking at a mono setup for the RC10, I wouldn't bother with the 674/694 class of chips that are available in many new cameras - they are very good, but have pixels that are a bit small for the scope. The 8300 is probably in the same boat unless you want to image at the resolution limit in exceptional seeing. I think that leaves the 4000 class cameras in your price range. The QSI cameras with built in filters and OAG look pretty impressive.

regards Ray

[graham.hobart]

That's exactly what I wanted advice on- thanks mate.
The QSI seems a better buy than the Atik because of the OAG and the filter wheel. And I am familiar with the QSI having owned one in the past.
ummm...
decisions

[graham.hobart]

Ray, when you say 4000 class which ones are you referring to? the Atik 4000?
I looked on the Bintel website and the chips available are (for QSI) the KAF 8300, the Sony's ICX 694, ICX 814 or ICX 674.?

I think SBIG would be too expensive for me

[Shiraz]

yep, the KAI04022 with 7.4 micron pixels seems to me to be a good option - QSI have a 640 camera with the chip, as do SX and Atik etc. Maybe there is not enough demand in AUS for Bintel to stock one?

The QE and noise specs of the 4022 are a bit below the latest chips, but it should still be fine with reasonably long exposures. However, it would be nice to have someone with more experience of Kodak chips to provide an opinion - I have only ever used Sony based cameras. The 4022 also has the advantage of only needing 1.25 filters, which is significant if you are looking to do narrowband imaging.

If you wanted to go above your budget, you may consider the bigger 11002 - or even the 3200 NABG chip if you can live with blooming.

There must be others out there with the RC10 - would be nice to know what they have done.

[PRejto]

Hi Graham,

If you are looking for a 7 micron chip camera you might want to consider the Moravian G2-4000

(https://www.myastroshop.com.au/moravian/index.htm


Moravia has released an X2 driver for TSX. I've been using it recently and it is now quite robust. I have no issues doing long automated T-Point runs. The camera has good cooling and inbuilt filters. I think you would find the price quite competitive.

Peter

[graham.hobart]

Just so I know I am barking up the right tree, I am using this to calculate my resolution arcS /pixel=
3438xpixel size in mm x60 divided by focal length.
So anything below a pixel size of 7um for me at 2000mm would be a waste of resolution and hideous oversampling plus not good with my usual seeing at around 2 anyway?
So I should be on the hunt for cameras with 7um pixels and above with a decent sensor size (is the RC 10 image circle 27mm?)
So like the KAI 11002 sensor?
9um pixels and 37x 25mm sensor in the ATik 11002?

[graham.hobart]

Or the Moravian G3 11000?-9um KAI 11002 sensor?

[pmrid]

Graham, I've owned an ATIK 4000 mono. The colour version has basically the same sensor sizes etc. They are a good camera - easy to work with, no difficulty setting up and not too noisy. But, I found that the cooler was not the best. It would drop 30C below ambient and would need the supplementary water cooler to go any further. I found that limiting in summer. Perhaps the cooling has improved since I bought mine.
The pixels are 7.4 microns square so on an RC10 at F8, this would produce an image scale of 0.75 arc seconds per pixel. You might want to consider whether that is a bit on the low side.

Peter

[Shiraz]

I thought that the 11002 was a bit outside of your original budget, but it would be a good match to the scope, with about 2.2 pixels across the best seeing blur circle. then add on a big filter wheel and a set of 2 inch filters.

I think that you will need a field flattener with the larger chip.

The 11002 has relatively low QE and high read noise, so plan on fairly long subs if you have a dark sky (eg 20 minutes). An OAG would be the way to go for guiding long subs on the PMX.

[DavidTrap]

QSI will do a 640 with a colour sensor.

There is also a new SBIG 8050 OSC - it's apparently LRGB, not RGGB, so it should have better sensitivity than the usual OSC. However, when I asked SBIG for some sample images they said drivers were a bit thin on the ground, and field testing wasn't complete! Might be interesting in the long term nonetheless.

DT

[graham.hobart]

Thanks chaps! The 11002 would seem a good match except I don't have dark skies and my limit so far on subs has been 10 mins due to lp.
Maybe I should start thinking about turning this around and put the qhy 8 on the Rc 10 and buy something suitable for the 110mm f6 660mm fl.?

[graham.hobart]

Using the 660 mm fl I could go down as far as 3.4 um pixels and still be a good resolution ! Maybe getting a 3-5um pixel camera is a tad easier to achieve ?

[graham.hobart]

Problem would be that 110mm scope is hideous without a flattener so then would be big camera plus filter or bigger camera plus internal filters then flattener then focuser- I am already tight squeezing the scope past the walls with the qhy 8 plus ff and that's a little camera. Pity the new qhys are cylinders and not flat.

[Peter.M]

Leo uses the qsi 540 on his rc10 and gets great results.

http://www.starkeeper.it/M51Deep.htm

[lazjen]

Not meaning to nitpick, but the website lists the cameras as: QSI-640WSG / ATIK 4000LE

[graham.hobart]

The 640 QSI is advertised on the QSI website but not on the Bintel website. Last time I bought a camera direct from QSI I got stung a 1000 bucks for customs clearance.
:(

[DavidTrap]

Wouldn't that be included in Bintel's price? They'd have to pay it too!

DT

[Christoph]

Hi Graham,
I would just ask them for a quote. When I bought my QSI683ws-8, their price including filters was very competitive and cheaper (not by much, but still....) than what it would have cost me to direct import one. And no problems with clearance, shipping and so on.... Took about 4 weeks to get it.
Cheers,
Christoph

[graham.hobart]

The point was it is not on the website but I will ring and ask if they can get one :D

[Paul Haese]

Graham, i have imaged with the QSI 8300 on an RC8 and found generally that an image scale of around 0.6 to 0.8 arc seconds per pixel produces a good over sampling with can be deconvolved nicely.

I don't think using an 8300 on a 10" would be too bad but you can order 640 from Bintel. My recommendation is to ring bintel to make the order. They don't stock these cameras anyway so ring and place an order.

If you can get a larger sensor like the 11002, either in mono or colour. QSI don't currently have production of these but might in the months to come. SBIG have an integrated system but it is large. Perhaps a larger observatory will help here too.

Colour sensors can be obtained for each of the cameras, so lots of variations are possible.

[Peter.M]

All of those cameras contain the same sensor, the differences between the 540 and the 640 are subtle the largest difference I would say is the filter wheel size. And because the ATIK also has the same sensor I would say that it was used to capture colour data all at once.