Lest we forget.

[Dennis]

I would like to pay a tribute and my respects to those men and women that suffered and perished whilst serving in the armed forces in the horror that is war. I thank them for my freedom today and I am grateful for their sacrifice and bravery, I cannot imagine what they had to face. My thoughts and prayers are also with their families, friends and loved left behind.

Lest we forget.

Dennis

[brian nordstrom]

LEST WE FORGET .

Brian.

[wavelandscott]

Although we are half-way around the world on ANZAC Day, we have our flag out and up and the kids are prepared to share the story at school (along with some ANZAC biscuits)...Lest We Forget...

[PCH]

When I first subscribed to IIS a fair few years ago, year on year this thread used to be much longer than this. It seems we have somewhat 'forgotten'.

I love this time of year as it gives me a chance to re-read those wonderful verses outlined in earlier posts. It's hard to imagine how people can put such thoughts into words.

Just my 2c and no offence intended.

[mr bruess]

A Day To Remember (https://www.facebook.com/adtr) Anzac Day folks!!! I saw the Dawn Service on TV.
lets not forget those soldiers who died young for us.They made the ultimate sacrifice by giving up their lives for our freedom and protection.


Have one for the good old diggers and definitely spare a moment or 2 of gratitude for what these guys have had to endure both while they were there on the battlefield and afterwards - such a big burden to carry for us and the price of freedom.
Lest we forget.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[rat156]

Hi All,

I've had a contrasting two Anzac days over the past two years.

Last year was spent in Kandahar with the men and women of the ADF, the dawn service was a solemn affair with only a few speeches, but for the most part conducted by the Padre so it was a bit more religious than was expected. Afterwards there was the obligatory two-up and then settled in to watching the Anzac day AFL game. I got a care package made by a primary school grade which contained Anzac bickies, some pictures the kids had made (which I still have), vegemite and some other stuff. I emailed the school later one to thank them. After that was finished I think I went back to work (or at least checked to see if any work had come in). The ADF guys spent a good proportion of their day on social media catching up with their home unit and their commemorations.

This year was a dawn service near home, again a solemn affair, but with speeches from a local politician and a short benediction from a local religious person. The national anthems were sung by a local primary school choir. After this we had breakfast and settled in to watch the Anzac day march (and in my wife's case, catch up on some sleep). I then attended the Anzac day AFL game, had some beers, watched the wrong team win and took the train home. If I had been in Sydney I would have attended the home unit's commemorations with some of the guys I was deployed with, but I'm in Melbourne so that's not an option.

I was going to answer some of Bert's insulting and ill-informed commentary, but I have learned from past experience that this will get the thread locked. I thought I'd just share a contrasting view of Anzac day.

Lest We Forget.

Stuart

[Dennis]

Bert, you have made me think. I think that your insensitivity and tone is neither educational, inclusive nor constructive, so I would question your “feeling secure”. If you enjoy that security, why wait until this time each year to hijack this thread in the same manner.:)

If you would like others to hear your voice and continue with that particular debate, please start your own thread, as has already been suggested earlier.:)

You clearly have a big intellect. Maybe its sharpness could be less cutting and its brilliance less blinding, if your goal is to win hearts and minds. :)

Regards

Dennis

[rat156]

But not acted upon...



None, wrong age bracket. But I've lost two mates in Afghanistan, do they count?



Went to Afghanistan last year, does that count?



No bullets, but we often had rockets fired at us. They destroyed the Pizza Hut one night, thankfully no-one was hurt. In a strange way that rocket probably helped save the life of a few Americans. Pizza Hut is not good, Pizza Hut in Kandahar is borderline toxic. Does this count?

Like I said earlier, start another thread and I'll debate you on your views of war. You might be surprised that
a) Your opinion is flawed in some respects
b) We agree about some aspects of what you say

My last comment in this thread.

Cheers
Stuart

[entity62]

http://www.awm.gov.au/commemoration/anzac/anzac-tradition/

Quote from above and the last sentence say's it all.

Australians recognise 25 April as an occasion of national remembrance, which takes two forms. Commemorative services are held at dawn – the time of the original landing – across the nation. Later in the day, ex-servicemen and women meet to take part in marches through the major cities and in many smaller centres. Commemorative ceremonies are more formal and are held at war memorials around the country. In these ways, Anzac Day is a time when Australians reflect on the many different meanings of war.

Darrell

[Dennis]

Dear Forum Members

As Bert has declined my request not to continue with his train of posts in the thread, could I ask other members to refrain from posting any replies to the posts he continues to make?:)

Whilst this is a free country and an open forum, in my opinion there is no purpose being served in responding to Bert?:)

However, I would welcome posts in the spirit of my original post, as nicely summarised by Darrell’s thoughtful post above.:)

Thank you

Dennis

[Ric]

I was chatting with my godson this morning who had hid first ANZAC day as a member of the Australian Army.

He was saying that it now means a lot more him than before when seen from a different perspective.

To all our fallen soldiers, RIP, Lest we forget.

[Shano592]

It is hard being in another country, that doesn't recognise this sort of day.

For the whole day, these past sacrifices have been in my mind.

I don't get out to dawn services, but I thank a lot of current and former service men and women in person, for putting their futures at risk. More broadly, I thank them all. Even Bert, if he'll take my thanks as it is offered.

War is terrible, and I'm sure most are started by unhinged people, bent on pure destruction.

As a nation, we have never started a war, only gone in to bat for our friends. We go to help end them; to bring peace. We weren't founded by war, so war is not in our blood.

April 25 will always be special to our nation, as we choose to commemorate, for whatever reason suits each of us best. Personally, I am thankful to our Diggers for the freedoms I currently enjoy on a daily basis.

[Paul Haese]

Having been a soldier in the Australian Army 81-87, i was trained by Vietnam veterans and learnt that Anzac day is a day of quiet reflection. IT IS NOT a time for attacks on the merits of war. To do so is insulting to those that died and gave the ultimate sacrifice, those that survived needed the peace and the quietness in the morning to remain sane. Please Bert for the sake of the fallen stop acting like a royal turd. I have been shot at with real rounds and I can tell you it was the most frightening time of my life. Anzac day is the day that I sit and thank those that fell, especially those that died stopping the advance of the Japanese in New Guinea. Without that sacrifice things might have been very different here. So now just stop and be quiet, find another thread to comment in or go and attempt some processing for a bit.

[LewisM]

What an utterly insulting thread, though from only one person who I formerly enjoyed reading from.

I lost a Great Uncle SOMEWHERE in a field in Ypres. Never found, probably never will. He went to war knowing what to expect. He was 17.

My Great Grandfather, Lt. Thomas Endymion Lewis (MM, Mentioned in Despatches, nominated for Croix de Guerre) was gassed in Belgium. The after effects of the mustard gas is what eventually killed him after serving YET AGAIN in WW2. He was seconded to train the Yanks in 1917, and it was whilst with them he was in an artillery barrage that ended up burying him under mud and dirt. If the Yanks were not so green and in need of leadership, and not dug him out, he would still be in that very field. He then went on to lead a machine gun battalion for the remainder of WW1, but then was in hospital in London for 2 years (came home 1920).

My maternal Grandfather, Kenneth Walter Powell, was in the attacks on Darwin (and WAS granted theatre pay and later a TPI Gold Card for this), the attacks on Townsville (that most people do not even KNOW about), and was at Milne Bay (he was repatriated to Darwin). He did 15 years ago due to complications from the Splenectomy performed after injuries at Milne Bay (he developed myeloproliferative disorder, due to his liver taking over the spleen duties for most his life etc as well as leukemia).

My paternal Grandfather was at Morotai at the end doing the mop up (he is the youngest of them all). He is still alive. I have his souvenir Katana he brought home with him (no glory story - he had a pair of binoculars, and the guy with the sword wanted to trade, so they did). When asked back in the 80's and 90's for people to consider handing the swords back to the Japanese families, his response, from a VERY clean mouthed devoutly religious person was "Yes, they can have it back - point first up their [flaming] arses!" (replace with flaming with the f word).

No Bert, perhaps we didn't have an army invade us like in Holland, but we damned near nearly did. You have to remember that MANY THOUSAND Aussies gave their lives up to fight for countries they were not even citizens of - Holland for one (interesting side point is the invasion of Holland took all of 7 days for the Germans to complete!!!!!!!). Our blood is all over Europe, and as the song - one you may be ignorantly unaware of - goes, "Australia will be there!".

Yes, the politics of war are grotesque. The sacrifices made can NEVER, EVER be diluted with such petty sentiment as yours.

[entity62]

Interesting read.

Ruling classes around the world have their national myths. These attempt to tie working people to the capitalist class through the false idea of nationhood – a recent historical development.

The Australian version of this national myth is Anzac day. It is supposedly the day Australia became a nation. It celebrates our defeat at Gallipoli in 1915.

It is important to understand the historical context around the establishment of this day. The first Anzac day was held in 1916. The war to end all wars was bogged down in bloody slaughter. In Australia support for the imperialist adventure was split.

Many workers remembered the bitter class battles of the 1890s and the depression that drove many into poverty.

Workers had ignored Federation, despite the cheer squads of Australian capitalism attempting to use that event to glue workers to the system and the exploitation that arises from it. For many workers class was the most important determinant of loyalty.

The war further exacerbated class divisions.

Many rejected outright participation in the battle between two competing imperialisms. Others, influenced by the Labor Party, supported it but opposed conscription.

The class still had a memory of internationalism, and the impending outbreak of revolutions across Europe (including the German revolution, which ended Germany’s war) would only further reinforce this sense of class solidarity across borders and against the common enemy – capital.

Here in Australia the divisions were highlighted by the rapid growth of the Industrial Workers of the World, a revolutionary group committed to a democratic society without bosses. Indeed the “Wobblies” were such a threat that the police and security forces framed leading members for arson, and the state made being a member illegal, closed down their press and finally outlawed the organisation itself.

Conscription was the issue that saw class divisions come out most starkly in Australia. Working people and their parties opposed conscription, and defeated both referendums on the issue. The ALP split, with the forces around Billy Hughes going over to join the Conservatives and form a Government.

In 1917 there was a general strike in Australia. Overseas the Tsar’s regime in Russia collapsed after a five-day strike begun by women workers on International Working Women’s Day.

The first Anzac Day was an attempt to divert anger away from the capitalist class to those who were “disloyal”. It was also an important part of the pro-conscription propaganda.

The immediate concern the ruling class had was that disaffected soldiers – and there were many, having witnessed the reality of war – would link up with the radical sections of society. Anzac day deliberately offered them an alternative, an alternative that celebrated their role and remembered those who died rather than questioning why war occurred and why workers died for profits.

In fact, class polarisation (which reached its apogee in 1917 in Russia with the working class taking power on 7 November) continued in Australia and elsewhere for a number of years after 1916 and 1917. This saw Anzac day almost disappear in the early 1920s.

It revived after that as the revolutionary tide ebbed (exemplified by the rise of Stalin in Russia and Stalinism elsewhere). The forerunner of the RSL rebuilt itself by setting up clubs and pubs and helping returned servicemen and women (especially during the Depression).

World War II saw the idea of Australia, as a nation, “arrive” (and also boosted the popularity of Anzac day).

The sense of class and internationalism lost its way under Stalinism and in Australia the Communist Party wrapped itself in the flag of patriotism to fight the fascists. In fact World War II was a repeat of World War I – the clash of two blocs of imperialism.

Australia has always had an imperialist “protector”. This used to be Britain and is now the US. As part of our ruling class’s desire to be the major imperialist power in the region, we have attached ourselves to a powerful ally which will enable us to carry out that role.

To do that we must pay our dues. That is why we have a long history of following our ally into imperialist adventures around the world.

From Sudan in 1885 to Iraq in 2003 we have participated in a large number of foreign wars to help keep the UK and the US on side with our own expansionist project.

So even though Kevin Rudd pulled out of Iraq he is continuing our role in Afghanistan to show to the US his commitment to the alliance and to allow our own role in the region – East Timor, the Solomon islands, PNG for example – to continue.

Gallipoli itself is an example of our ongoing imperialist view of the world. We were part of a force that invaded a country that we had no quarrel with and which did not threaten us.

Anzac day also performs another function.

War is an integral part of capitalism and imperialism. Most people’s initial reaction is to recoil from war and all the horror it brings. Anzac day downplays that horror and makes war acceptable.

It is propaganda to allow the ruling class to call on the next generation of workers to join the war effort if needed.

And it may divert people’s attention away from immediate economic concerns - I may be losing my house or job but at least we diggers are good fighters and I am so proud my son is in Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Or East Timor. Or the Solomon Islands.

Right now there is war going on around the world. It’s the war of the bosses against workers. The dead are many.

According to the Australian Manufacturing Workers’ Union around the world ‘work is more deadly than war, causing up to 2.3 million fatalities a year through related injuries and disease.’

International Workers’ Memorial Day is this Wednesday 28 April.

[thunderchildobs]

Could the mods please clean up this thread and get it back on track to the orginal post.

Brendan

[RobF]

I found a documentary which I caught the last 30mins today on TV a great insight into the ANZAC traditions - from both sides. Didnt catch the title. I was always concerned from what I knew of the Gallipoli campaign that many unsound strategic moves had been made.

It was great to hear of the many innovative approaches the Aussies (and English) took including use of air reconnaisance.

We don't have to be proud of war and death, but I feel for all those that died so far away from home. I do believe there is a place for reminding us all what earlier generations fought for. Fortunately most of us find it hard to understand what they endured. Seeing the WWII bullet holes in the Villers-Bretonneux memorial some years ago reminds me that unfortunately people don't always remember.

Thanks for starting the post Dennis, and your obvious maturity whilst keeping it alive. Cheers,

Rob

[RobF]

Actually one side of my wife's family was devastated when my wife's great grandfather never came home. We found his name on walls of the VB memorial, but his body was never ever found/identified. My wife's great-grandmother never re-married but spoke of him always, as did her daughter (wife's grandmother).

We visited a few cemetries in the area, and in the one closest to his last known location in action, there are 6 unknown graves. My wife told me today one of those six is now the Unknown solder in Canberra, exumed in the 90s. His sacrifice is remembered and greatly appreciated, but I would never say glorified.

[sn1987a]

I stand ready to join all my fellow aussies to fight to the death for 'ol mate Berts right to say anything he likes whether we like it or not. I actually agree with a lot of the sentiments he's expressing here by the way, I've watched with concern the growing of the cult of ANZAC over last few years. I don't like ANZAC day anymore and instead prefer a moment of quiet reflection on Rememberance day. Good on ya Bert for having the guts to say what you think.


Barry

[casstony]

IMHO we should remember and feel sorry for the poor sods who were killed or injured in war, while at the same time being aware that we are generally pawns of the ruling elite (ie. bankers and other multinational executives).

With that in mind I'll do my absolute best to keep my kids from participating in any war - go bush, shift countries, whatever it takes.

[Jezzcass]

I normally wouldnt post in a thread this far gone but without continuing a pointless argument, I'd just like to say THANK YOU from US Diggers, it's not about glorifying war but about remembering those that fought, weather they wanted to or not (the ADF has quite a history of 'underage' enlistment, I'd say due to a sense of duty not some sinister motive), if you can't appreciate that some men and women gave the ultimate sacrifice regardless of the circumstances then please have the respect to keep that opinion to yourself, least of all on the 25th of April.
Sincerely one of those men that has had incoming rounds, mortars, rockets, IED's and that has carried some of those brave men that gave the ultimate sacrifice.
LEST WE FORGET

[PlanetMan]

:question: A lot of food for thought here

[Exfso]

I cannot believe that the mods have let this thread get totally out of hand from its original intent, the mind really boggles. I think they are most definitely AWOL.:mad2:
This is not a place to debate the ins and outs of war, but to have respect for those that have fallen whilst serving their country during those torrid times. I am horrified at some of the crud that I have read here, I cannot believe that a normal person would come up with such absolute garbage. :screwy:
Just for information my Father was one of the "Rats of Tobruk", and I saw what he went through every Anzac day until he passed when I was only 19yrs old.

Just for information I pointed out this thread to a mate of mine who spent 30 yrs in the Royal Australian Navy. His reply follows.

Did anyone think to point out to this bloke, that if the soldiers that were sent to the front in WW1 were not sent, his ancestor would have been carrying a rifle in the German army as they would have been a captive state? Why did our people save his ancestors, they wouldn’t have if they had known what sort of ungrateful, self-serving, egotist it would bring forth. Maybe somewhere along the line he might understand the rationale behind ANZAC Day, it is NOT to glorify war or being part of it – it is to show that war does cause grief, does not solve anything, is mud, terror, fear and suffering and the world would be better off without it. All he is doing by rubbishing it is making others argue with him and cause more people to accept the idea that fighting is an acceptable way to stop idiots making light of your suffering and respect. There stands a man with the sympathies of a rock and nearly the same IQ.

[LewisM]

I surely was not expecting to see the union drivel/dribble expounded in such a thread. Considering the despicable actions of the Wharfies during WW2, I find it utterly astounding someone mentioned the "plight" of union sheeple...

Not sure this thread SHOULD be locked. Better to expose them for what they are

[entity62]

I think the "sheeple" could be said for ANZAC lovers.

[LewisM]

Trotsky would be proud of his minion.

[PlanetMan]

No apology necessary - it is all about sharing ideas/knowledge

The mini essay strikes me more as political science/analysis

I personally found it interesting albeit depressing about what human beings and our societies are all about - which is perhaps why I come here to mostly think about looking up at the universe:thanx:

[LewisM]

THAT is a good point!

[casstony]

most people are decent I think and the good side of human nature prevails in the general populace. unfortunately we're also easily manipulated and ignorant to the activities of the truly selfish few at the top who pull the strings.

[Matt Wastell]

I find the Anzac Day reflection quite appropriate, each to their own.
The effect war (in particular the First World War) had on our early Nation was profound.
At the time our population was under 5 million, over 400,000 enlisted (sense of duty or adventure) and our casualties were horrific - 60,000 were killed and 156,000 wounded or taken prisoner. I believe we lost 8,000 at Gallipoli.
War may not be the answer but if you do not reflect, challenge, acknowledge and learn we will continue making the same mistakes.

[casstony]

We do plenty of remembering, but there is almost zero analysis of the causes of war in an effort to avoid them in future. This does the fallen a great disservice since their greatest wish was that their sacrifice would prevent future generations from suffering the same fate.

[Matt Wastell]

Unfortunately war will probably remain as one of humanities ongoing legacies - It may be small conciliation but we have a zero casualty approach to engagement.
This has been an interesting (albeit an emotional) thread.

[entity62]

In Alan Bennett’s play The History Boys one of the characters says: “The best way to forget something is to commemorate it.” Nothing exemplifies that more than the way that Anzac Day commemoration has resulted in Australians either forgetting what they knew about Gallipoli, or never learning the truth.

For many returned servicemen and women and their families Anzac Day is a solemn day of remembrance, but much of what Australians believe about it, and what images and ideas it inspires, have been products more of recent PR and propaganda than of memory.

Alec Campbell, socialist, trade unionist, republican and the last Australian who served at Gallipoli, was almost deified by John Howard. Brendan Nelson wanted all Australian schools to teach “values” through the prism of John Simpson Kirkpatrick, (the famous Simpson and his donkey) who, it is generally agreed, was a drinker and a brawler; jumped ship and came to Australia as an illegal immigrant; was a bit of a slacker at times and probably acquired the donkey as a way of avoiding working with anyone else; was in favour of a revolution to “clear out millionaires and dukes”; and, had enlisted so that he could get back to his family in Britain.

These realities were conveniently omitted from the Howard-Nelson version of history, although it is tempting to think school kids would be better off learning about the Campbell and Kirkpatrick values than some other ones stuffed down their throats.

The basic facts about Gallipoli are also well-known, but seemingly feature little in either Anzac iconography or political rhetoric. For a start Australia suffered 8709 casualties at Gallipoli (Department of Veterans Affairs Anzac website) compared with 86,692 Turks, 21,255 Britains and 9798 French.

There were also 1358 Indians and 49 Newfoundland casualties. Gallipoli has been a battleground for millennia and its modern significance is probably mainly due to Kemal Ataturk’s role there, and subsequently in modern Turkey. Yet Australians have been persuaded to believe that its significance is primarily Australian through a process that framed the event as a founding national event; promoted it as a unique opportunity to express Australian patriotism; and then commercialised it through tourism and other activities.

The legend was shaped from the very beginning by British journalist Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett; Australian war historian C.E.W. Bean; Sir Keith Murdoch; and C.J.Dennis in The Sentimental Bloke.

But why it has became newly iconic after being in long-term decline from the 1960s is a puzzle. Ken Inglis’ view of Anzac as providing something sacred for a secular society is persuasive. Inge Clendinnen is right to remind us of the significance of his work just as Henry Reynolds and Marilyn Lake are right to ask why we celebrate Anzac Day and not our pioneering role in unionism, social welfare and women’s suffrage.

But the full picture is impossible to grasp without considering the expensive and well-planned PR programs designed to help us remember Anzac Day in a particular way.


The long-term decline was reversed from the 1990s, first, by Bob Hawke at the Anzac Day 75th anniversary. It was then consolidated with the Australian Remembers campaign in 1994-95 to mark the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II. And it culminated in the Howard government’s deification of the digger and militarism.

While the speeches, events and commemorations were the public face of a memorial campaign, behind them all were PR and marketing campaigns. The Australia Remembers campaign was run by the minister for veterans affairs, Con Sciacca, his chief-of-staff Greg Rudd, John Engledow, deputy head of an Australia Remembers Taskforce and Peter Thomas as a roving ambassador.

Peter Thomas, a former army officer, and an experienced PR practitioner who had headed Telstra PR, said in a case study summary of the campaign that it was “possibly the last opportunity for many veterans, servicemen and servicewomen to be honoured. These people, and those who served but are no longer with us, have a special place in the history of Australia. They are an enduring beacon for us all”.

And many of us who worked on the campaign sincerely believed that. Yet there is little doubt that there was also political calculation involved — and it was fairly easy for some of us to believe in the Australia Remembers and the Labor cause at the same time.

Traditionally the RSL leadership (although many ordinary diggers were on the left) were strong supporters of Empire, Crown, conservatism and strongly anti-Labor. Australia Remembers gave the ALP the opportunity to re-position itself as the patriotic party — which it had always been but which conservatives had managed to frame as otherwise.

Later state ALPs adopted similar tactics. Victorian ALP veterans affairs adviser and Vietnam vet John Phillips played a brilliant role in building bridges with ex-service people and the RSL, working to get a better deal for veterans and using skilful commemorative tactics to re-position the Bracks and Brumby governments among veterans.

Australia Remembers used the full gamut of PR activities — particularly at grassroots level. Grants were made to local communities to conduct events including community events around local Anzac Day services that, instead of the main Anzac Day March, became (and continue to be) the focal point of Anzac Day services around the country.

Forty years ago there were fewer and fewer marchers and fewer and fewer onlookers. After the Australia Remembers campaign there were thousands of small community events involving hundreds of thousands of people across Australia.

Many of the campaign elements — re-enactments, commercial tie-ups, events — were standard PR techniques that tapped into the patriotism that had been kindled as part of the 1988 Bicentennial celebrations; the 75th Anzac Day anniversary; and gave local people an opportunity to develop forms of commemoration distinctive to their community.

They also, unfortunately, produced a platform for the new nationalism; distrust of foreigners and refugees; and, the military adventurism of the Howard government.

All the techniques used in the US to promote war — farewells for troops; the concept that criticising the wars was wrong because it was disloyal to “our troops”; symbolic visits to the troops in combat zones — were also used by the Howard government. The Australian military now even employs brand managers just like fast-food companies.

However, the US efforts are far more comprehensive simply because the US military employs more PR people than any other organisation in the world.

As long as wars go on, politicians continue to think of new ways to commemorate them, new PR gestures, and new ways to “honour” those who served. People I served with in Vietnam are still fighting to get better health and pension entitlements, but we have now been awarded more medals in the past 10 years than we were awarded for serving in the first place.

With every one of these additional postwar decorations we were all given the opportunity of having presented them by our local MP or getting them through the post. Most chose Australia Post.

[entity62]

Sorry. The 2 essay I posted were written by others.
First essay http://enpassant.com.au/2010/04/24/the-myth-of-anzac-day/
Second essay http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/04/22/come-in-spinner-the-pr-campaigns-driving-anzac-day/
I did not give them credit, as it could have lead to attacks on there left/right thinking.

Sorry again.

Darrell

[PCH]

Hey Darrell,

Thanks for the links to the essays. They present a very interesting set of views and facts surrounding the ANZAC event.

All the best buddy :)

[iceman]

Not the best time to have a thread blow up, when the moderators are away.

As usual on ANZAC day Bert decides to hijack the thread with his own agenda. He's been banned for 5 days.

I did my best to clean up the thread but there's not much left to it because people avoided posting in it (for good reason). Sorry Dennis, might be better to delete the whole thread and start again! Next year it won't be allowed to happen.

Apologies to everyone who got upset using the 'report post' button - but you have to understand that moderators have lives too and we're not on-call 24/7.