Japan Denies WWII History

[Hans Tucker]

Disturbing if the article is accurate.

http://www.news.com.au/world/japans-rising-worrisome-rhetoric-denying-its-world-war-ii-crimes-has-china-and-the-west-worried-about-its-new-ultranationalism/story-fndir2ev-1226822379758

Those that forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

[Regulus]

That is a bit concerning Hans.
I don't mind if they want to change the treaty to allow them a military that is a bit more than the relatively small defensive force they have, and so as not to rely on the USofA and allies to bolster their military. They live in a dangerous neighbourhood.
I can even understand that growing up Japanese and carrying a burden of guilt about your country's and forefathers actions might encourage some attempt at amelioration; it would be unpleasant for a society that places emphasis on 'face'. However the idea of whitewashing facts from history is not a good start to good relations. Especially when it is documented and provable.
China will play it for all it's worth and so will North Korea.

I believe it is an attempt to recover honour for the entire culture but it's not the way to do it. The recovery is a generational thing and will take time-distance from the events. Probably another generation or so. In fact the current younger Japanese generation seems quite willing to let it all go.

Trevor

[noeyedeer]

so sad. ww2 was such a horrific war .. no post war distress disorder or whatever it's called these days .. those guys were tough as nails .. and now this! no wonder I am kinda racist. to clarify I don't have any friends that aren't Caucasian.

matt

[noeyedeer]

the Chinese would be the most upset .. the crimes Japan did in kampuchea is horrendous .. moreso then the Jewish holocaust... I mean in that province .. I forget sounds like what I said but it's not Cambodia

nanking ? either way .. most south east Asian countries hate the japenese

[David Niven]

Lest we forget, our diggers were butchered and eaten by Jap troops in WWII. There are articles on these urls,
http://www.smh.com.au/national/archives-reveal-japanese-atrocities-on-diggers-kept-secret-20131004-2uzrd.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/736051/posts

Yes indeed, the ultranationalists in Tokyo is on the rise!

[Steffen]

And thus you have lowered yourself to the same level as the ultranationalist sabre-rattlers...

Cheers
Steffen.

[noeyedeer]

perhaps, but I have no remorse for them what so ever. the emperor was not held for trial lol ... yet most german generals were. no wonder Hitler escaped to the south Americas ...

matt

I'm sure the images of watching the natives on that island near Japan (I'm too drunk to remember) throwing themselves and their children off cliffs .. because the Americans were advancing ... lol if that's not mind control what is ...
saipan... here's an account www.wtj.com/articles/gabaldon/ scroll to the bottom third if you don't want to read the whole story

[BPO]

The Japanese are concerned with honour, rather than "face," a Chinese concept related to image. In Japan, it's possible to be poor yet completely honourable, but in China you can't be poor and have a lot of face. There, you can be the sleaziest, slimiest, crookedest scumbag imaginable and still have face, if you're wealthy and draped in bling.

As for contemporary Japan and WW2, most who were alive at the time want to forget, and those who weren't don't want to know. It's not taught in schools, and that's how the majority want it.

Japanese behaviour in Manchuria was beyond despicable. Genghis Kahn and his hordes would have been horrified by many of the things the Japanese did there. It was so bad it horrified the local German consular -- an avowed Nazi -- and he is considered to be a hero for his attempts to stem the slaughter. It doesn't get much worse than that.

The ultranationalist far right in Japan is an extreme group: Most Japanese are friendly and polite to a fault to foreign visitors, even though the majority would happily wind the clocks back to the time before they were forced at gunpoint to open their country to the predations of the rest of the world. It's not that they hate foreigners: they just don't want them in Japan as anything other than tourists.

On the other hand, I suggest you visit Japan before you condemn an entire race and society for the wartime atrocities of their forebears. Everyone of us has ancestors who did reprehensible things, yet you'd be howling with outrage if anyone suggested you're somehow responsible.

The Japanese are overall lovely people, and it's a wonderful and interesting place and culture. They're certainly very different in some respects, and, yes, they have their fringe of idiotic racists, just as we do. In fact, I'd say racism and bigotry is far more "in your face" in the west than it is in Japan.

Disclaimer: My wife is Japanese, and I've visited Japan many times.

[casstony]

Not necessary - Japan is nuking itself. One accident with the spent fuel pools at Fukashima and much of the country will be ruined by airborne radiation.

[casstony]

Extreme nationalism is on the rise in many countries due to economic hardship and high youth unemployment. History suggests it's only a matter of time before a serious regional conflict breaks out, possibly in Europe or china/Japan.

[AstralTraveller]

While it's perfectly right to decry Japanese ultra-nationalists lets not get too smug. There are forces in this country right now who are interested in re-writing history, obscuring current affairs and hobbling any news outlet that does not toe the line. Unless good people start standing up we'll wind up with 'white Australia' and the stolen generations forgotten, piracy on the high seas, and testosterone and hubris dominating the public discourse. The battle for the past, and the future, is here and now.

[PeterHA]

Hitler did not escape, he fled by killing himself in the Berlin Bunker.

[multiweb]

:nerd: Woaaah.... do you get your news from the Daily Mirror or the SUN tabloids? I though it was made clear his skeleton was found in a B52 bomber on the moon?... :shrug:

[AndrewJ]

I would say its more due to the looming effects of overpopulation.
We are getting to a point where countries can no longer remain sustainable unless they expand their borders to grab others resources.
We are just emulating bugs in a petri dish fighting for space in the agar.

Andrew

[Camelopardalis]

I've travelled a fair bit in my life and lived in a bunch of different places and mixed with heaps of different people.

The one thing I've learned is that people are just people, and we are all more similar than we are different when it comes down to it. And there are evil elements amongst every society. In a modern society we are just more aware of it though media, and today we call them 'extremists'

[Steffen]

Well said. Quoted in full for truth.

Cheers
Steffen.

[noeyedeer]

nah it was some documentary I watched on Nat geo, based on some guys book and declassified fbi files. it was interesting. there's a bit on the web about it and how the DNA testing of the bunker bones were inconclusive etc...

matt

[Astro_Bot]

Indeed. But this isn't the first time, nor will it be the last.

Anyway, we're not the only people to notice how screwed up things are getting. From an article (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/micallefs-mad-moment-makes-for-surreal-satire-20140211-32fwn.html) on Shaun Micallef's satirical show, Mad as Hell:

[Kunama]

I foresee a big padlock in the future of this thread ...

[MattT]

Couldn't agree more.

Just read Peter Reith's piece in The Age a day or so ago…

Matt 'noeyedeer' that book on Hitlers survival has been out for decades. I read it in the early 1990's. I bought it from a second hand book seller so it's older than that.
Matt

[noeyedeer]

yeah I know MattT.. it was published in the 50s or something like that. I'm only going by what I saw in the doco, not when or what was written in the book, having not read the book.
matt

[KenGee]

er Matt as they say far better to be thought a fool then post drunk online and remove all doubt .

[iceman]

Oh dear Matt, I'd hate to hear your thoughts on 9/11.

I deleted 2 of your posts for being inappropriate for this forum. Many people have found them offensive.

[GeoffW1]

They WERE tough. But there WAS battle fatigue and PTSD, plenty of it. To come back from such a horrendous experience, and then just function normally and go shopping in Woolies, was too much for human beings.

Cheers

[hotspur]

I wonder what Japanese people think when they visit other countries and there are movies such as 'Unbroken' and 'Railway man' and many others on view, in this and other countries.

Saw this link of WWII images in another forum-not sure what they tell future generations in Japan,but truth of this magnitude cannot be covered forever.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2010/03/18/captured-blog-the-pacific-and-adjacent-theaters/#more-1547

[astroron]

I have too dispute on this, There was a thing called "Shell Shock" which many suffered from, that they were not treated very well for it was just a way of the time.
Ever since man has fought wars there have been these problems.
Lots of times it was treated as cowardice etc.
Today we are a more considerate society and treat these people who after all put their lives on the line to serve their country.
I used to see the guy who suffered Shell Shock when I was a kid in England after the war, they were mocked by us kids, who Knew no better :sadeyes:
I feel for servicemen who have PTSD, it cannot be good for them or their families.:(
I am an ex soldier and can understand what they went through, even though I didn't have a very bad active service time.
War is Hell and should not be taken lightly,like some politicians seem take it.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[togo54]

Finished reading a book called Unbroken just the other day. A very good read. Japanese people as a rule should not be categorized with the Emperor influenced military of the day. I agree with some posts as to the cruelty of the Japanese military of yore but I disagree with the comparisons to Hitler. Hitler was far worse. If anyone would like to read Unbroken, message me your contact info and I'll share the book with you. It is in epub format.

[ianB]

When it comes to War, EVERY nation has, and is committing cruel acts, either to indviduals with torture ( the recent events at Guantanamo bay demonstrate this ) or to selected communities, this has been the case in the past and is the case in the present, fo example in recent times in Yugoslavia and at the present time in Israel and elsewhere.

And when, in modern times, such acts are carried out and neutral nations stand by without taking any action, other than having so called Peace talks, do they not share in the blame?
If you saw a helpless person being set upon by thugs and it was within your powwer to help but you turned away, would you not be accountable in some way yourself? If not legally morally?

I take no sides when it comes to killing and torture, what the Japanese did was cruel and severe, but lets not kid ourselves here, cruel and severe acts have been committed by every nation, not only in the past but also in the present, as such in my opinion everyone that takes part in such things are accountable for their actions, but accountable to who?

To single out one nation for their atrocities while downplaying or ignoring the cruel behaviour of others seems to me to be a case of tunnel vision, now I am not saying people here in this thread are like this, these comments that I am making are just my thoughts in general, not specific to anyone here.

Also should one generation be held accountable for the acts of the previous generation?
Of course not.

[rcheshire]

When I was living and working in Japan between 2003 - 8, rewriting of Japanese history in school text books, particularly in relation to China, was a hot topic.

I worked with Japanese people at very close quarters and it is fair to say that most perceive the war years and perhaps the years of colonialism, and the cruelties associated with these times, as the misguided ambitions and arrogance of post modernisation.

My experience was of a deeply exclusive and predjudiced nation who tolerate and take the best of what they can of foreign interests. Having said that I met some of the finest peope I have ever encountered and some of the most doubtful.

A survey, during my stay there, found that the large majority of Japanese did not want a return to the ways of the former years. There is however, a strong nationalist movement.

A captive of their system for 5 years, perhaps I suffer from Stockholm syndrome, but it is the philosophical bent that seems to add a harsh edge to being Japanese or indeed wise to the dangers of Japanese society - these people did not fair well in the workplace and were often overlooked, if not actively suppressed.

I suspect that Japan may present itself to outsiders according to its preferences.

There is significant danger in forgetting, let alone denying, history.

[rcheshire]

"Railway Man" - Colin Firth and Nicole Kidman.

My closest colleague is Japanese. He is a fine fellow.

[Barrykgerdes]

History of wars is what the winners want you to know. WW11 was rather tame in the killings and torture that went on in previous wars but because it affected so many people it is looked on as the most terrible. I see today is the aniversary of the bombing of Dresden that killed 35000 civilians. Did they really need to die to prove a political point?

The modern Japanese probably want to forget all about the bad side and political correctness is the same in Japan as anywhere else. Who can blame them for wanting to erase the bad side of the war

History was taught in my school days from books that were printed prior to WW11. I would expect that most of them have been well and truly destroyed now as they presented views of the past that are not politically correct now. We were very nationalistic in those times.

Barry

[AndrewJ]

Gday Baz



From what i read, Dresden at the time was also a major logistics centre, and as such was deemed fair game. No different to the Luftwaffe bombing Coventry etc. to clog up the "system" behind the front.
Wiping out the logistics train behind an army can be just as effective as facing the army head on, but much less costly on your own troops.
Not saying its nice, but when has war been nice?????

Andrew

[Hans Tucker]

IMHO Stalin was worse than Hitler and Hitler was surrounded by people worse than him...and no I am not discounting his crimes in WWII.

[hotspur]

I have a elderly client on a property-looking after her lands.Her husband was Polish,he always said the Russians were far worse than the Germans,he said at least the Germans 'kept there word'-i.e if you go past this line you will be shot,the Russians just shot people when ever they felt like it (usually when drunk).He said they were animals.

Poor chap was a POW for five years and then a displaced persons camp for another four years.One fellow he knw was John Paul (became a Pope).Some interesting stories,said when the French POW came in,he and other Pols thought they might have some tucker to share-but no-all the had was aftershave and toiletries and similar!

Not sure what the Tom Waterhouse odds are on this thread being closed,but thought I'd post before its closed.

The is an old painting in the ladies house her husbands' brother saved asd the Germans burnt the house down-the German officer said you can take what you can carry-he had so much the officer could not believe one man could carry so much.Awful to try and think what these people went through.

[ianB]

My grandmother was raped by polish soldiers buring WW2 and my grandfather was placed into a concentration camp by the Germans ( he survived )

The past is the past i have no negative feelings against any polish or german people.

I can appreciate that older people who lived through the war may retain negative feelings and thats understandable, but we live in the hear and now and to hold onto what such and such a nation did during the war will only stir up bad feelings and really serves no useful purpose, " but we can learn from these thing " some may say, well if they do think thats the case i must disagree, look at the world today, hardly a day has passed without conflict somewhere in the earth sincce 1945.
The plain fact of the matter, the reality, is that war in one for or another will continue, no lesson however harsh has been learned, the USA the UK, Australia and so on have all taken part in some horiffic actions against no only other armies but against innocent people since the end of WW2.

The facts are undeniable and to say otherwise is to bury your head in the sand.

Japan is not alone in being an aggressor and treating others inhumainly, if other nations took a hard look at themselves in the mirror i am sure that they too would not like what they see.

[rat156]

If you're talking genocide and war crimes, we did pretty well when we first colonised this joint, continues to this day. The fact that there are no fully indigenous Tasmanian brothers (or sisters) is a past wrong which cannot be re-written, we should feel ashamed, but not responsible, like what a modern day Japanese or German person might feel about atrocities committed during WWII.

But the killing goes on, for that we are responsible.

Stuart

[N1]

Go and watch Iron Sky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py_IndUbcxc), a great Scandinavian documentary on what really happened. :P

[Hans Tucker]

Sorry Stuart but I will never feel ashamed of what was committed in the past in this country in regards to the indigenous people, which I do not deny happened. Why? because I was not born in the generation that these events occurred. A person should only feel ashamed if they witness an injustice and fail to act to oppose it.

[rat156]

Fair enough, so are you ashamed of our treatment of the indigenous population today? Or are you acting to oppose it?

Stuart

[Hans Tucker]

Can you please explain or elaborate on what treatment of the indigenous population today you are referring to. Truly I am missing a important point here.

[rat156]

Aboriginal health statitstics
2..3 Aboriginal infant mortality rate compared to other Australians. 80% die under the age of one.

3 Aboriginal death rate compared to the total Australian population.

1.95 Rate at which Aboriginal people are hospitalised compared to non-Indigenous people.

125 Number of Indigenous doctors practicing in Australia, compared to 60,000 non-Aboriginal doctors [13].

44% Percentage of adult (15-plus) Aboriginal people reporting ‘excellent’ or ‘very good’ health in 2008, unchanged from 2002 [20].

76% Percentage of Indigenous infants (aged 0-3 years) who were breast-fed in 2008 [20].

36 Times sexually transmitted Gonorrhoea is more prevalent in Indigenous communities than in other communities [17].

30 Times Aboriginal children are more likely to suffer from anaemia and malnutrition due to iron deficiencies [16].

7..12 Times 25-34 year-old Aboriginal Australians are more likely to die from heart disease than non-Aboriginal Australians [11].

25% Percentage of Aboriginal people who reported having used an illicit substance in the last 12 months (stable rate between 2002 and 2008) [9].

1.6 Times Aboriginal people are more likely to have recently used cannabis than non-Aboriginal people [6].

0.8% Percentage of the overall Federal health expenditure in 2009 which was spent on Aboriginal health [24].

30% Percentage of adults in Aboriginal communities suffering from type-2 diabetes [3].

13% Number of Indigenous homes having functioning water, waste, cooking and cleaning facilities (of 4,000 Indigenous homes surveyed during 1998-1999 in the Northern Territory).

6.5 Times an Indigenous youth aged 15 to 24 is more likely to have sexually transmitted infections [1].

12.4% Percentage of Aboriginal people aged over 45 years with dementia. Same rate for non-Aboriginal people: 2.6% [14].

60% Percentage Aboriginal people are more likely to die from all cancer types than non-Indigenous people [8]. Cancer is the second leading cause of death for Aboriginal people.

6 Times sexually transmitted Chlamydia is more prevalent in Indigenous communities than in other communities [17].

10 Times Aboriginal people living in remote communities are more likely to develop dementia than people living in countries such as Africa, India or Indonesia [15].

5% Percentage of clients of disability services in 2008/9 who were Aboriginal. Same figure for the NT: 50% [7].

83% Percentage of Aboriginal children in the NT who had some decayed, missing or filled teeth. Average waiting time between referral and receipt of service: just over 14 months [12].

References for above
. www.hollows.org [1] Koori Mail 394 p.11 [2] Koori Mail, 413, p.6 [3] ‘Diabetes crisis is forum target’, Koori Mail 473 p.14 [4] ‘Service makes a difference’, Koori Mail 510 p.23 [5] ‘Hepatitis danger in the spotlight’, Koori Mail 507 p.51 [6] ‘Grim findings in drug survey’, Koori Mail 507 p.30 [7] ‘More utilising disability help’, Koori Mail 493 p.53 [8] ‘Study looks at cancer death rates’, Koori Mail 474 p.32 [9] ‘Small smoking fall but grog ‘a worry”, Koori Mail 494 p.22 [10] ‘Tooth decay fears raised’, Koori Mail 507 p.4 [11] ‘Art with heart heads to Townsville’, Koori Mail 487 p.46 [12] ‘NT study confirms problems’, Koori Mail 497 p.51 [13] ‘A column by our own doctors’, Koori Mail 438 p.54 [14] ‘Dementia danger’, Koori Mail 412 p.49 [15] ‘Dementia dangers’, Koori Mail 487 p.9 [16] ‘Ironing out anaemia’, Koori Mail 484 p.57 [17] ‘Sexual health plan is a first’, Koori Mail 479 p.66 [18] ‘A shamed nation turns a blind eye’, SMH 16/11/2009 [19] ‘Action urged on mental health’, Koori Mail 511 p.42 [20] ‘Gains, but the gap is still wide, study finds’, Koori Mail 463 p.9 [21] ‘Conference gets to heart of solutions’, Koori Mail 504 p.47 [22] ‘What’s in a name?’, Koori Mail 515 p.36 [23] ‘Programs win report praise’, Koori Mail 519 p.68 [24] ‘Call for more accountability’, Koori Mail 466 p.11 [25] ‘I didn’t feel a thing – Part 2′, Hepatitis NSW: Transmission Magazine #9, 9/8/2011 p.23
- See more at: http://www.naccho.org.au/aboriginal-health/aboriginal-health-state/#sthash.vOGcoGcg.dpuf

[Hans Tucker]

Thanks Stuart for the detailed reply and I have come across some of these statistics before. I will not profess that I have any solution to these issues but getting good health care and education to the remote communities that the indigenous population reside in has always been an issue. What do you propose we the people or even the government do particularly when the governments (state and federal) can even get basic rural health care sorted. I have never worked or been associated with indigenous affairs but I believe until we can get their education sorted some of these issues cant be resolved.

One statistic you mentioned Number of Indigenous doctors practicing in Australia, compared to 60,000 non-Aboriginal doctors Is that really the fault of the government or us non-Aboriginal people. Universities do provide reserved positions for Aboriginal and Torres Strait so the question is why aren't these positions being filled?

[rat156]

https://www.oxfam.org.au/act/events/national-close-the-gap-day/



This is precisely the attitude I expected, I'm not having a go at you Hans, believe me, it's what our Governments (of either persuasion), Federal, State and Local have been peddling for decades. "The black fella won't help himself, it's his fault" is the kind of racism that should have died out long ago, but you still hear it today from younger, more educated people than myself, it sickens me.

Not that long ago a good friend of mine (a New-Zealander) pointed out Australian's subliminal racism. I questioned him, so he pointed out when we were doing it in normal conversation. Once it's pointed out to you, you can't help but hear it, I still do it from time to time, he's quick to point it out. We each try to correct one another's behaviour, but mine was much worse than his.

Similarly, like you, I once believed the Government line about the poor conditions the indigenous population of this land. I did some research, I talk to some indigenous Australians, I got to know a little bit about their culture. I conceded that I had been wrong, I apologised, I vowed to not hear (or in this case see) the great injustice and not challenge it. I have pledged to "close the gap".

Please do some research of your own, read the Oxfam website, draw your own conclusions.

Stuart

[clive milne]

Lies... damned lies .... and statistics.

I have no argument against the notion that the treatment of the indigenous population of Australia (historically) has been of similar magnitude of barbarity as that displayed by the Imperial Japanese Armed services during WW2... I was actually going to raise the point myself. however, quoting health statistics such as these to establish or reinforce the idea is counterproductive because the majority of people will realise that it implies an overriding cultural agenda that simply is at odds with reality. I am not trying to discount the accuracy of the statistics, just the notion that they reflect some sort of apartheid mentality in the rest of the Australian populace (basically made up entirely of boat people and their descendants.) It is intellectually dishonest. (and therefore invalid) as distinct from the grievances aired by the Australian aboriginal people, some of which are entirely valid.

[ianB]

Politically speaking I am neutral, I am an Australian resident but was born in the UK, since living in Australia on and off for the past 33 yers I have seen the fights that Aborigines have had on and off over the last three decades over a numerous issues.
And as i observe these things and the way in which the governmet responds, as well as the general populace, I get a feeling of, for want of a better word, sadness and at times injustice, during debates as to what aboriginies should or should not be entitled to etc I think to myself that Cpt Cook took possession of Australia in the name of King George III
in the year 1770, now if the average person lives for say 85 years thats less than three life times ago.
Less than three life times ago the indigenous people of this land had everything taken, or to be precise stolen from them, everything.
Now here we are, less than three life times in the future, deciding what they are allowed to have, what land they are entitled to own and use.
As I said I am politically neutral, I am not taking sides with anyone, these are just my personal thoughts and observations.

[blink138]

@ian
"politically speaking i am a neutral"
i regards to our indigenous people:
"sadness", "injustice", "took posession (of)", "everything taken", indeed "stolen...., everything"
quote: "as i said i am politically neutral, i am not taking sides with anyone"
well i am glad you clarified that then mate!
pat

[noeyedeer]

no probs Mike sorry to all involved.

matt

on 9/10 .. Rumsfeld states trillions (or was it billions) of unaccountable pentagon dollars .. next day accounting area of the pentagon wiped out ... hmm. .. that's my view :)

[noeyedeer]

I know Ron .. that's what I meant by they were as tough as nails because there wasn't the help and support service people have these days. tough or not ..they didn't have much choice. :(

matt

[Zaps]

Another outsider's perspective here.

Having lived and worked in the south of the USA, a region where racism is not only deeply embedded but actually institutionalized, I have to say I'm often dumbfounded by the degree of casual racism I encounter in Australia on a daily basis.

In the USA we have the dreaded "N word," but here you have so many racial epithets for so many races and use those words so blithely and often in everyday speech that even if I wanted to I couldn't keep up with them all.

It's not neutral to claim to see no racism, which is what you were hoping.

[Barrykgerdes]

I think it is time to close this thread. It has gone off the rails and is becoming a platform for people expressing pet views way outside the scope of the original reference.

Barry

[Kunama]

I am continually astounded by the discussions I find under the Forum Heading that reads:

"General ASTRONOMY Chat, Astronomy Media, Star Parties & Events, Observing Chat, Astronomy Science and more."

I wish there was an "Ignore" button for sub-forums, as some of these topics generate much disharmony within a community which came together due to their love of astronomy.

Just saying ...........

[iceman]

There's nothing wrong with some occassional 'off-topic' chat in General Chat.

As a community, that's natural and expected - people have lives and opinions outside of just astronomy and they often want to share with their astronomy friends.

So sometimes we let off-topic threads run, even though they're sometimes on the border of appropriateness - there's many grey areas and grey topics.

In this case, I think enough has been said and it's time to lock it.