5k budget...

[slt]

Well, I’ve just given another telescope as a present to someone (this time my nephew), and after almost 40 years wanting one for myself, I still haven’t gotten round to it. My excuse has always been light pollution, but my dark sky property in the northern Flinders is still patiently waiting for my retirement…

Anyway, I’ve just decided that I can justify spending $5k now (maybe 6 depending on the answers I get). It will primarily be a visual instrument, but I want to at least dabble with photography (just DSLR for now). I kind of set my sights on a refractor, at least 4” but preferably a bit more. Again, light pollution (Sydney northern beaches) is a factor I need to take into account.

After a bit of research I’ve been thinking this:

SW Black Diamond ED120 on a HEQ5 which adds up to about $3500. From all the reviews I’ve read, this isn’t that bad a scope.

But then I keep seeing the “cheaper” triplets, such as the SW Esprit 120ED, but of course this will need a heavier mount (AZ-EQ6 maybe), so that’s more like $6k. But then there aren’t many reviews out there on this scope, so that makes me a little hesitant.

So my question, as a primarily visual scope, will a “cheap” APO such as the Esprit give enough bang for the extra 2500 bucks that I would need to spend (including the beefier mount) over a ED doublet of the same aperture.

Would I be better off with a quality 4” TV or Tak APO?

Or should I get a C8 (Edge?) C9.25, Mewlon 210 instead?

Suggestions and thoughts welcome…

[brian nordstrom]

Hi Gunther , I have been thru most of the scopes you mention here and currently have a HEQ5 ( non GOTO ) that holds my sweet Istar 127mm f8 frak and really awesome C9.25 XLT CF , these will do me for years .
Hope this helps .

ps. I am impressed with the C9.25 .

Brian.

[MortonH]

I wouldn't be keen to splash that much cash on the Esprit models until there are more reviews. They may well be good, but all those optical elements need to aligned properly or the views could be mushy. Jury still out for me.

I'd be tempted to get the 8" Edge and an ED doublet refractor around 100-120mm for the best of both worlds. You could get those plus an HEQ-5 and still be within budget.

Or the standard (non Edge) C9.25 is about the same price as the 8" Edge.

[Harb]

I would consider a higher end used scope......
You will get either more bang for your buck, or more acc's which is always nice.
They are all used after the first night out anyway.....

[AG Hybrid]

Have you considered simply driving out of Sydney like the rest of us do on the new moon weekend to a dark sky site?

$5K will get you a C9.25 and an EQ mount. You'll also need a field battery. A camera. Maybe a Field flattener. Probably a replacement focuser to prevent mirror flop. A guide scope, a guide camera. Probably a laptop too. Some image processing software. Come to think of it you'll need alot more then 5K with that setup. Ok Scratch that.

An edge 8" + CGEM mount is nearly $4500 as well. Hmm.

ED80 and an EQ6 Pro and a guide scope?

[PeterHA]

I have and had Refractors, Maksutovs and Dobsons.

If I would have to start visual astronomy I would look at:

a 100-120 short and light (f7-9) semi Apo or Apo like the Tak FC-100
on a alt-az mount like AOK AYO II, discmout DM-4, Vixen Porta
with good EPs and a red dot finder (Telrad)
On a good tripod like a Berlebach
That would come in under $5000, is quick to set up, has decent to very good image quality, allows up to 200x if the air permits, is managable for newcomers , can later be the grab and go.
Just my two cents.

[scopey]

Gunther
Spend your money once,I own a Tak TSA 102s and on loan a TOA 130.Refractors seem to deal with polluted skies better (I live in Geelong).I would recommend a Tak TSA 120 apo on a EQ6,if you can find one second hand,good luck with that. You will not be disappointed. That maybe more than you want to spend but you won't be sorry.
Hope this helps Scopey

[casstony]

Having owned various SCT's and refractors and a couple of Dobs over the years, and currently owning a Tak TSA-120 and EdgeHD 8", I'd suggest the 8" Edge as a high quality all-rounder. The Edge has sharp, high contrast optics and it's significantly brighter than the refractor on nebulae. I can't say which one wins on Jupiter as I haven't stable air to properly compare.

I traded my first 8" Edge to get the TSA-120, then I bought another 8" Edge and both have had top notch optics.

The only potential problem with Celestron scopes from the last few years is that some of them develop a film on the inside of the corrector due to outgassing from some internal component of the scope. It cleans off easily but the corrector has to be removed to do the cleaning. If the scope is stored in hot conditions (eg. hot car or observatory) the outgassing is more likely.

[jamespierce]

Let me put in another vote for a 4 inch refractor as a starting setup. Even later on when you decide you want an imaging setup, or a big dob or whatever a good refractor will always be enjoyable as a second view.

[pfitzgerald]

Hi Gunther
I have only ever owned one 'decent' 'scope and mount. So I cannot provide any comparisons, but I've been using them regularly for over six months now.

I've got a SW BD ED-120 refractor on a HEQ5-Pro mount (purchased from Andrews in Sydney) $2299 + $1199 = $3498. Additionally I purchased an Orion Awesome Guidescope Package (purchased from Bintel here in Melbourne) $579.

So far all of this costs $4100. Freight and insurance were extra. I've also bought a flat field reducer and adaptors for a Canon camera (60Da), Kendrick dew heaters and a power tank. If I had my time over, experience is a wonderful thing :-) I'd have not purchased the power tank. There are plenty of threads here on ICE about portable power supplies.

My reasons for purchasing the refractor were mainly wrt its portability and not having to worry about collimation if it gets bumped etc during transport. I've used the scope visually and for DSLR photography and have been very happy thus far with my purchase. Like many others I would love to have the ready cash for a TAK but that isn't likely to happen any time soon. So I chose to purchase the setup I have so that I could get involved in astronomy and AP now, rather than save for another 5-10 years and maybe have to spend the money on other things and never get into the hobby.

It would also be very much worth your while to visit your local astronomical society, pick their brains and look through their scopes before making a decision.

I hope that my 2¢ worth helps.

Paul

PS You can take some pretty good images with this type of rig. I still consider myself very much a beginner wrt AP. I've attached below the best image that I've captured and processed so far.

[gregbradley]

Generally speaking when starting out in imaging you want a widefield refractor. Why?
Everything is easier - easier autoguiding, focusing, framing, no collimation, no big cooldown issues, not susceptible to seeing, lightweight, portable.

A C9.25 is a long focal length scope. Its heavier, long focal length, suffers from mirror shift, cooldowns, focuser would be inadequate, needs a better mount, etc etc. Everything would be way harder. Especially autoguiding with that mirror shifting around.

So 100-120mm would be plenty. Triplets are usually better than doublets as APO means 3 colours come to the same focus point. Generally refractors are weak at coming to focus in blue hence blue rings around bright stars.

If you need to lower the budget then get a scope 2nd hand from classifieds here or off Astromart.

Put a bit more into the mount and a bit less into the scope. A great scope on a bad mount may be ok for visual but certainly not for imaging.

Others can advise you on the Eq mounts. There seems to be a few of them and I have seen plenty of round star images using them.

The first target is to be able to get round stars at 10 minute exposures. Not so easy.

Use a modded Canon 350D DSLR to start with. It costs very little and gets great results and plenty of support and software. So spend most on the mount, then the scope then a modded DSLR an that will keep you within your $5K limit. Stay away from Newts, SCTs, any mirrored scope as your first scope as you really don't want to get into their complexities as your first setup. You'll have a loss.

There are plenty of widefield images. Its not that widefield imaging is only a beginners task - not at all. Some of the best astro images around are widefield images. They are easier to get started on and get a pleasing result. Forget ideas of close up galaxy images until later on as your interest and gear naturally evolves up to that. There's plenty of interesting widefield targets to keep you going for several years.

Greg.

[Logieberra]

There's a real nice used ED120 refractor, here:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=1055812#post105581 2

[slt]

Thank you all for your input … much appreciated! Lots still to think about.

I probably should also have mentioned that while I’ve never “owned” a telescope, I actually have a reasonable amount of astro experience, stemming from a life-long interest. I’m certainly well read-up, star-hopped my way to every single M object with 7x30 binos (in mostly LP-free skies I might add), and even regularly operated a rather nice 225mm f/13 Coudé refractor at a public observatory. But that was half a lifetime ago, and my recent observing experience is with the Nexstar 6SE I bought the kids a couple of years ago.

As I said, light pollution (and more to the point, living in high-rises) has given me an excuse. But now I have a nice north-facing terrace and LP isn’t as bad as was at my previous place closer to town. So I think the time for scope is now or never!

PS. I even built myself a little power tank already, 35AH (upgradable to 2 x 35AH), including regulated 12V and 8.4V (nominal) outputs. For someone with 2 left hands I’m actually rather pleased with myself J

[Kunama]

If you're keen to go with a refractor and it is going to be a 'do-it-all' I would suggest going with 120mm as a minimum. As long as it fits with your portability issues the extra 20mm of aperture makes a big difference.

Up until recently I had a nice 120mm F7.5 which gave very good views on planets, clusters, and some DSOs. There is a very good deal in the IIS classifieds at the moment on a 120mm ED being sold by Baz (bloodhound31). There is also a Vixen GP-D2 with goto, so all you need is these 2 and a tripod and you would have a great kit. That would leave you with a fair bit of $$$$ for some nice eyepieces and still stay under $5K.

I am now using the Mewlon 210 which is excellent but really does need time to cool to ambient to get the best out of it. It gives the most refractor like views of any mirrored scope I have tried.
For the ultimate in portability with excellent optics go for the Tak Sky90 or FS60CB .

[issdaol]

Hi Gunther,

It really depends on what your main visual targets will be but if I had a limit of $5K I would go for:

Takahashi Mewlon-210 OTA
EQ-5 GoTo Mount + Tripod
Takahashi Star Diagonal
Takahashi LE-24mm Eyepiece

You can get this bundle brand new with new Tak warranty from AEC the Australian Tak Dealer for just under $5k. Then use the extra $1k to buy a couple of extra EP's or upgrade the mount to an EQ6.

Cheers

[brunono2]

When I think of how much money I have wasted initially buying cheaper scopes then was unhappy and eventually bought better quality - I can only advise you to buy the best there is that you can afford if you are serious about the hobby- a refractor of at least 100mm which must be preferably a triplet apochromat or a flourite doublet. With what I wasted initially I could have bought larger and better than what I have now.

Good quality is also easier to sell if you keep it in good condition

Cheers

Bruno

[Steffen]

I wholeheartedly agree with Phil. If I had $5-6k to spare then that's what I would most likely get. This is a long focal-length scope, but for wide-field you have your binoculars :) Long focal length scopes have the advantage that all your eyepieces will have comfortable eye relief ;)

Cheers
Steffen.

[g__day]

I have the WO 110mm FLT with a moonlite focuser and I am very happy with that scope - for both visual and astrophotography. I also have a Celestron C9.25 Carbon Fibre with both a motor focuser and 10:1 fine focuser and it performs very well too! Perhaps because the Refractor is newer for me I am enjoying its imaging a lot -and its much faster than the C9.25.

Might I say that for budget reasons I would go the Refractor over the C9.25 for astrophotography. You see you need to saddle the OTA well, and counteract mirror shift / flop and guide well - you end up putting in quite a few extra $$$ for the SCT. I have never taken my gear to a dark sight - so my advice should be tempered.

One thing that I would say is a better mount makes the whole experience far more pleasant and reliable! So good luck!

[gregbradley]

The trouble is Phil Mewlon 210 is not really an imaging scope and is also long focal length with a small corrected circle. It would be hard for someone new to get a decent image out of one. Its more a visual instrument.

FSQ106ED is pretty much where Tak starts or TSA102 but these are out of the budget I would imagine.

Perhaps a Tak FSQ106ED 2nd hand and an EQ5 mount 2nd hand may take you to $6-7K?
Tak doublets even though they have fluorite suffer from chromatic aberration blue rings around brighter stars). The new ones just out may be better (I don't know) but I would want to check that point carefully before you spent $5K on scope only. Also Tak has an annoying aspect where the price does not include rings,finder scope etc. You've got to add another $800 or so to finish it off.

Greg.

[issdaol]

Hi Greg,

Understand and agree based non corrected Mewlon. However Gunther mentioned primarily visual and some casual/beginner imaging.

The Corrector Reducer for the Mewlon brings the FL back to around 1900mm and an image circle of 39mm which is pretty good. I have seen some very good images done with corrected Mewlons.

Plus the benefit of getting brand new equipment from one of the top Japanese manufacturers all within his budget has to be a bonus.

Cheers

[gregbradley]

Oh yes I remember now. Tak brought out a corrector for the Mewlons.
I have never loooked through one but have read numerous times they are sensational visually. F9 and 1900mm though is still tough territory for new imaging. 550 to 700mm is better for a new imager.

1900mm will show up all the errors of the mount, the polar alignment, but 39mm may be just enough for an APSc sized DSLR.

Greg.

[M_Lewis]

I see lots of useful advice about which scope to buy, but realistically nothing about the mount...

To put it bluntly, if your foundation of your setup is poor, then putting on an awesome scope will still result in poor. So I'd do more homework into what mount would be most suitable (and include transportability in that equation, connectivity, guiding capability, parts and usability), and then look around for a decent 2nd hand scope.

A refractor is literally no-maintenance vs anything else. But is also transportable, and a decent astrograph if you decide to go down that route in the future, and a doublet is a very good alrounder.

Google for some free programs that show you the field of view on known nebula for the different size scopes, and that will be your best indicator of what you want to achieve size wise from a scope, then start searching from there for a suitably priced scope.

But I refer back to the mount, make it a decent one.

[issdaol]

100% Agree.

Even for pure visual, using a poor mount and tripod will make your experience VERY annoying.

My tripod alone (not including mount) cost over $2k but considering the build quality and stability was well worth the investment. Maybe a roadtrain or D9 running over it would destroy it :lol:

[Poita]

I have a 4" fast triplet you could borrow, and a G11 you could put it on if you want to see how that goes.

There is also the option of something like a C9.25 and hyperstar combo for long and short focal length imaging.

[g__day]

I note there is a Losmandy G11 for sale in the mounts section right now - would make for the heart of a great system!

[gregbradley]

Now you're talking. A G11 and a modded DSLR and invest the remainder in the best 4 inch APO you can afford plus the bits and pieces - an autoguiding solution. Orion has an autoguiding package that is affordable. I am not sure how good it is. It looks like it would be ok.
SBIG has the STi and the lens kit which is super small and light and would be suitable for a 4 inch APO setup (not so much a long focal length setup).


Greg.

[Steffen]

All that for a primarily visual scope?

Cheers
Steffen.

[Camelopardalis]

Just my thoughts, but I'd take a look at the 8" Edge HD and VX combo. Predictably, I say this because I have one :lol: but it's a lovely visual scope, and both it and the mount are quite lightweight and portable. It's an EQ mount, but easier to use and more polished than my EQ6. I feel it's overpriced in Australia compared with over the big pond though.

Then once you want to dabble with photography, you're ready to go for planetary, but just get a small apo for DSO photography and use on the same mount.

If you're interested in looking at mine sometime, PM me.

[Kunama]

What he said :D:D

[slt]

Thanks to all for your help, particularly to those offering me a "look". As already mentioned it will primarily be a visual instrument, so for the time being I'm not considering G11s and SBIGs, on budget grounds alone. FWIW I'll probably end up with a quality 4" refractor on a mount that will give me some lee way in the future. Again, thanks for all the input!

[g__day]

Even for visual a less than solid mount may guarantee you hours of frustration. Jumping from the CG5 (an EQ5 variant) to the Atlux was an incredible step for me. Going from wobbles, weird mount behaviour, erratic pointing and not finding targets, strange slews, gear almost knocking etc... really impacted my visual and made astrophotography an exercise in pure frustration. The much better quality mount just made everything work pretty much flawlessly.

My advice would be a second hand mount for $3.5K (originally worth maybe $5K) paired with a second hand triplet APO (I bought mine for $2.5K) would just sit in your possible $6K budget and give you solid, reliable enjoyment - versus possible regret spend and you saying if only I listened!

You might get lucky - but is it worth the risk if the goes pair shaped?

[Camelopardalis]

So here's the thing...all of these solutions are all a great way to spend $5k, but how about starting off blowing $500 on an 8" Dob? It doesn't get much simpler than one of those for visual and packs enough light grasp to start seeing some decent detail in DSOs.

A 4" or 5" apo will present the image in the most beautiful way no doubt, but can't avoid being photon starved compared to bigger reflectors/cats of similar price tag or less. Globs for example need an 8" or greater scope for anything near full wow factor :D

There no one scope to rule them all...that's why many of us have more than one :lol:

Imaging wise...I'm leaving that to the experts :thumbsup:

[alocky]

For primarily visual observing you would be nuts to go with a 4" refractor. I have 3 so it's not like I don't appreciate them. However, an average 8" dob will show you much more, and for your budget you could probably find a used dob up to 16". The whole argument around light pollution or poor seeing being worse in a big scope does not match my experience either.
Many of my friends here use the CPC9.25" or similar and I am always impressed with the versatility and convenience of these. I'm pretty sure 5k would get you something like that.
Cheers, and remember, advice is worth what you pay for it :-)
Andrew.

[PeterHA]

That must be the most professional fited DIY portable power pack I have seen.
Very well done, impressive.
Maybe post the description and images in the DIY forum.
Cheers

[PeterHA]

Gunther,

That must be the most professional fited DIY portable power pack I have seen.
Very well done, impressive.
Maybe post the description and images in the DIY forum.
Cheers

[slt]

First off, apologies to all Sydney-siders for the terrible weather during the last 10 days or so ;-)

Well, after a lot of soul searching and reading a couple more books (Choosing and Using a New CAT, R. Mollise and Choosing and Using a Refracting Telescope, N. English) I ended up with a new CAT (after almost having bought a FSQ-106, then almost bought a C9.25, then almost bought a Meade 10”). But in the end aperture fever got the better of me, and courtesy of Steve Massey of MyAstroShop I’m now the owner of a brand-spanking new EdgeHD 11, sitting on an AZ-EQ6.

A few notes: Steve was very helpful in getting me both the OTA and the mount delivered within 2 business days. After the obligatory couple of weeks’ worth of cloudy sky/rain, I finally had the opportunity to try it out last night.

Yesterday afternoon was cloudless, but by sunset they were threatening once again. But I had the scope on the terrace at sunset for acclimatisation just in case. My terrace faces north, and while I can still see the SCP from eye level, the polar finder of the mount can’t, so I’ll be in Alt-Az mode for a while. Then came an impatient wait for the first stars to appear. As soon as I had made out α Tau I commenced a 2-star alignment. For the second star I choose α Leo, and I was pleasantly surprised that the mount was level enough to have it at the edge of the field of view in the 23mm Axiom that was included with the scope. So much, so good…

A quick defocus on Regulus to check the collimation … in retrospect not an ideal target, since it was relatively low in the sky. Even so, perfectly concentric diffraction rings, only the slightest scintillation. (Seeing was obviously not too bad last evening!) After having heard and read horror stories about badly collimated CATs new out of the box I must say I was pleasantly surprised.

Now for the fun part. Jupiter. Just in time for the end of a shadow transit of Ganymede. First wow experience of the evening. Next stop M42. Second wow. Still twilight, but plenty of structure and texture in the nebula. Swapped the Axiom out for the Ethos 13 mm (don’t ask, somehow snuck that one in J). Even more wow! E and F of the Trapezium clearly visible. Back to Jupiter for a closer look. The shadow of Ganymede looked crisp and clean as if someone had taken a hole punch to the face of the planet! Was wishing for a shorter EP then, because it would have easily taken twice as much magnification, but 215x would have to do for now.

Selected a few more targets in the north (transparency from the zenith south wasn’t that great): M35, α Gem, 38 Gem, γ Leo (wow once again). A final look at Mars, but not much too see, still too low in the sky…

A note on the mount. The C11 (15kg with finder and EP) appears a bit on the large side for the AZ-EQ6, but it’s within the specified payload of 20kg. And I found it to be quite solid. Maybe not good enough for fancy AP work, but I primarily got this setup for visual observing, and learning the ropes with AP. I’ll get something heavier once I have a permanent setup somewhere.

Happy little vegemite for now!

Thank you all for your advice and help. Clear skies!

(and thank you Peter, I’ll get round to writing up some notes of my power pack)

159535

[slt]

Oh ... and yes, I exceeded my budget a little ... about 50%. Less that most government projects :lol:

[Camelopardalis]

Way to go busting the budget :lol: congrats on your new scope :thumbsup:

I enjoy my Edge as a visual scope, hope you do too.

[MortonH]

That setup looks awesome!

[SimmoW]

Really nice setup there, and great friendly advice from everyone!