Inflation any comments

[xelasnave]

Now I know you scientists must wring your hands when I question the big bang (or current gravity thinkingno doubt, oh and time dialation) but where it (the big bang) came apart for me, and I have sort help with this once before I saw the following, was the inflation (aspect recently introduced) to hold the picture together.
"During this growth spurt, a tiny region, likely no larger than a marble, grew in a trillionth of a second to become larger than the visible universe," said WMAP researcher David Spergel, also from Princeton University.

Is this not difficult to get ones head around. From a marble to larger than the visable Universe (not the observable Universe) in a trillionth of a second?
Mind you I have no idea what size one could rate the visable Universe, maybe that is with the unaided eye..but I doubt he meant that. Growing from a marble to the size of the Sun in a trillionth of a second is beyond my grasp so the scale suggested simply leaves me wringing my hands.
Put me straight here are we talking about a "real split second" or "one" that if looked at it from the other size of the Universe is really 5 billion years? What magic could possibly explain this part of the theory. The background radiation map ties down the time pretty well so a conclusion such as this is almost "needed" but it seems some how "artificial".
Who is up to this one?
alex

[Dujon]

I would have thought, Alexander, that the answer is patently obvious. We are living inside a black hole. As you well know black holes are formed almost instantaneously at the moment sufficient mass is accreted at a central point.

Black holes, like turtles, go all the way down, so there's no need to investigate further that aspect of the universe, other than studying our own black holes so as to refine our understanding of the phenomenon.

The reason the universe continues to expand is a result of the additional material which is falling into our space from 'outside'. From our viewpoint within this part of creation it appears that the space we inhabit is expanding. By that I mean that someone outside our frame of reference would see it as an increase in diameter of the event horizon.

With me so far? If you are, I'm glad 'cos I'm not too sure that I am.

Now, the speed of light and the red shift mirage. Light speed is not constant, even though it seems to be from our perspective. The photons (or waves) which constitute what we call light is affected significantly by the internal pressure of our black hole and the number of baryonic particles produced, even though briefly, on the path between us and the observed objects. This means that the further away an object lies (in a geometrical sense) then the slower light becomes. This is complicated by the introduction of mass in the area in which a measurement is completed.

As it happens - just like the moon is of sufficent size to just eclipse the sun - measurements of light speed within the vicinity of our sun are affected to the point where they match the readings of light speed we get when we attempt to measure the speed of light from external sources. This, of course, means that we are making false deductions from our observations.

Not wishing to labour the point (?) a slower light speed will exhibit the same characteristics as an expanding universe. Right? I'll let you extrapolate that thought without further explanation.

'Pressure within the universe?' I hear you ask. Relate it to air pressure. You live constantly within an atmosphere which exerts a pressure of around 14 pounds per square inch of your body. Do you feel it? Didn't think so.

That's the end of Dujon's first lesson in the TOE. :)

[mickoking]

wow...................the universe is a real mind bender :P

[xelasnave]

Forget my picture but now I am all ears:) . Thanks John I dont know what else to say, and that is a first:lol: :lol: :lol: There are some who suggest light speed is constant do you feel this is a product of the limitation it places on human observation and therefore their assessment there can be nothing faster and it can not but travel at a definite and constant velocity.
alex

[Doug]

Hmmm, I suppose to say "light speed is constant" is not saying Light speed is everywhere at all times universaly standard. Does it not mean that within any given medium, light speed does not vary; that is, light does not undergo a process of acceleration within a given medium? I think we know that light undergoes a complex and selective acceleration as it passes the interface of one medium to another.
The hypothetical marble (matter) expanding in a trillionth of a second would necessarily exceed C by many orders of magnitude, a thing which matter is not supposed to do, and in the dense medium of the ether (wisper), it probably can't.
Now if the hyperthetical and much ignored 'ether' were to have also been contained within this marble, who knows how fast matter and light might be able to travel, freed of the shackels of any limiting essence?

cheers,
Doug

[xelasnave]

Given the revival of the cosmological constant from the grave I recon you will be using big letters in no time at all:D .
I really dont know about the speed of c in so far as those of relatively leaning can not have it any other way it is critical to the theory.
Others have explained the expansion to me such that one feels stupid not to accept it without question.
I guess my question then becomes do others go thru this "doubt" or is it just me:shrug: . On top of everything else it is a giant leap of faith in my personal view. To me I would rather the start date for the big bang start be moved back so we can have things growing at a rate within my comprehension, the background radiation map makes that now impossible I would think.
The irony of all this is that the only contact I have with the world is here and astronomydaily (other than a fast shopping trip once or twice a month) but when not on this (or at home) I play games of imaginary horses, dogs wolfes with my 7 year old daughter..there is no other adult human contact as Mommy does not talk that much ... the swing from one to the other is extreme.. I laugh about it so I thought I would mention the swings I experience... I go now to be "Star" the wolf who she (my daughter) found in the woods and thats what I will be doing till next time...well what do you do.. I guess talking about these abstract propositions confirms the importance of my time with her, but I really appreciate the input and feed back more than anyone can imagine.
alex

[Doug]

7 year old huh, Alex I envy you. They are pure magic at that age, mine is all grown up and no fun any more. Still she might settle down and have a few of her own; that'd be good cause then I could enjoy them and just give them back at night:thumbsup:
Background radiation is another quantum leap in faith. They predicted a 3deg Kelvin temp, based on the then proposed size/mass of the universe; they got lucky. However sinse then, those estimates have had to be drastically revised upward. The measured 3deg Kelvin remains the same, so where does that leave the theoretical predictions?
cheers,
Doug

[xelasnave]

Poor kid she was explaing the big bang to her nephews the other day I havent the heart to add inflation to the mix, mainly because I dont think she will accept it. I think she leans more to a steady state theory but she never says that much about it.. she is my Universe.
Maybe after 13.5 billion years the truth will never be known...how prfound is that?? I find the absolute beliefs people can live with confusing but I have time to think and I do so no doubt questions can easily present to me.
alex
alex

[xelasnave]

I am to be a grandfather soon also which I havent really taken on board yet.
Something I placed elsewhere but I really like this I hope there will be some who appreciate it as do I.

"And before we all think we know the answers consider this from the great man himself.

Einstein: "Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world. In our endeavour to understand reality we are somewhat like a man trying to understand the mechanism of a closed watch. He sees the face and the moving hands, even hears it ticking, but he has no way of opening the case. If he is ingenious he may form some picture of the mechanism which could be responsible for all the things he observes, but he may never be quite sure his picture is the only one which could explain his observations. He will never be able to compare his picture with the real mechanism and he cannot even imagine the possibility of the meaning of such a comparison.
You have to respect his ability to observe reality"

AND my addendum... why can we understand that presented story but still believe we really have anything relating to cosmology 100% correct. AND Imagine the embarrasement of an expert clock maker approaching that closed watch problem having explained to those gathered around how on the inside there would be a clock work system (unaware of any other motor for watches) and yet upon openning the closed watch he finds a battery and a chip, something he never contemplated and something he could not explain to those assembled. Such stories contain morals we overlook.

alex

[g__day]

He's got it wrong, the Universe in the Big Bang under inflation model between 10 ^ -35 to 10 ^ -34 seconds inflates at roughly 50,000 times lightspeed to reach a size between that of a Orange to a Basket ball.

Try the advanced physics forums for more data:

http://www.advancedphysics.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&f=23&page=1&pp=20&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=100

I'll search for some of the better posts that cover this.

but this is a cute one

http://www.advancedphysics.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1989

and the thread I raised on does the Earth actually radiate around where the Sun was 8.5 minutes ago was insightful too!

http://www.advancedphysics.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3001

[xelasnave]

G day I thank you very much for your interest and input.
I will go thru the links you posted with interest.
alex