first scope

[bazron]

hi everyone my first post on this site yay!!

wondering if someone could recommend a good first telescope for about $400-$500. something i could use to take a few photos with at some point. i was thinking saxon 909eq2 refractor. all comments welcome.

Aaron.. :)

[astro_nutt]

Hi Aaron and welcome to IIS. The Saxon 909eq2 refractor and also the Skywatcher sw102 are fine scope to start with but for light gathering power and value for money, you can't go past a dob. Consider the Bintel 200mm dob. Easy to transport and set up, although taking photo's would be limited to using an iphone or such via a holder clamped to the focuser/eyepiece. Read up on a few star parties or visit one near you.
Cheers!

[bazron]

i had thought about getting a dob but worried about moving it around as light pollution is very bad where i live (near an army base). so id be traveling every time i wanted to use it. tho they are the easiest to set up and most bang for your buck. most of the time id be standing out in a paddock somewhere and that seems to put me off getting one.. ive been told by a few people now to get one. but im just not sold on it yet. still looking at other options. i could maybe stand to spend up to $600 if i can save for a few weeks. :)

[barx1963]

I also would recommend a dob. Having had scopes similar to the ones you are looking at as well as 8", 12" and 20" dobs, I know that there is not much difference between an 8" dob and a small EQ mounted scope. And the dob doesn't have to be polar aligned.
An 8" is also easily transported in a small car.
You mentioned imaging. The 909EQ2 will not be much use for that unfortunately. If you go that way, best imaging is mounting a piggy back camera with a wide lense and go for some wide fields, as long as you are careful about alignment.

Malcolm

[ZeroID]

LP ? The DOB is still your best bet, more aperture to cut through the gunk and see the faint detail. My 10" beats the heck out of both my 80 and 102 refractors for visual use anywhere.
But the 102 is best for photography.

[niko]

a Dob - minimum 8"

there are many, many threads that outlines the reasons why but mainly

- encourages you to learn the sky
- good value for money
- huge light gathering ability
- ease of use (no complicated mount)
- reasonably transportable

[bazron]

okkie dokkie think ill be getting a dob. ive been looking at the saxon 8" for $525 on oz scopes.. might order it next week. iv got a pair of 15x70 bins ive been using to star hop around but havent had a clear night since last weekend. thanx for all the replys.

Aaron...

[mental4astro]

Andrews Communications has their 8" dob for $449. Their 10" is $599. Look under the Guan Sheng banner in this AndrewsCom (http://andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm) link. It pays to shop around.

[JJDOBBER79]

Hi aaron. you should be able to get a 10" for $600. Aperture is king!!!!!
Alex is right, check out andrews coms. I bought an eyepiece from them 2 days ago and had it in my hand the next day. (30mm superview, thanks for the recommendation alex) Look under the GSO brand. They get a good rap from pretty much all of the forum members. I dont think that the saxons are particularly better in any way than a GSO, I know they are more $$$$. Someone who has had them may be able to help more.

[simmo]

Hi Bazron,

Just a word of caution about going too big with your purchase. I went straight to a ten inch dob as my first telescope. It has been a two edge sword. I don't regret getting it as some nights have been very special but there are times I wished I had something smaller and easier to set up. I look outside and go tonight wouldn't be to bad but really I can't be bothered lugging my big scope outside as well as the chair and everything else. Maybe a good time to set up an observatory :question: but I digress.

I find that there are some nights that I don't need any scope to enjoy the stars. Now that I know what to look for I can see with my naked eye (I have very good eyesight) some of the larger objects in the sky, not to mention satellites, meteors, auroras and the such. On those nights I also just really want something a little smaller to gaze around with as I've usually travelled somewhere with good skies and I've left the big girl at home cause of no room to fit, scared someone will steal it when they see it through the window or worried it will get damaged.

Yes dobs may be the best value but they also have their limitations in some ways.

Ignorance is bliss too. If you were to go a refractor then you would never know how good a dob is and be happy with what you have! :lol:

In the end the choice is yours so good luck with your decision.

Simmo

[GraemeT]

Aaron,
If you read the Stickies at the top of the Beginners Forum, you will have all the answers to keep you going for a long time. There is a mountain of knowledge in those posts!
Cheers

[ZeroID]

Aarons got some 15 x 70 binos so he is not too restricted in choice there but you're right. I keep my little 80mm f5 on a tripod inside the lounge door and can just step outside with it for a quick looksee whenever the urge gets too much. Useful when the clouds are playing hide and seek and you have to be ready for those sucker holes.

[bazron]

hmm im still thinking about the 909eq2 or the 15012eq3 for some reason i think id be able to use it more. take it away camping up nsw got the best skys milky way form horizon to horizon.

ill read through the stickies too.

cheers for help everyone :)

Aaron.

[barx1963]

Aaron
I can only relate my experience with both small EQ mounted scopes vs dobs. I had a 130mm EQ2 by Saxon as my first scope. Used it for about 18 months. In that time I managed to see the moon, Jupiter, Saturn, Alpha Centauri, M42 and Omega Centauri.
I then got an 8" dob. Within 6 months I had done almost the entire Messier list (I think it was about 85 of the 100 Messiers vis in Vic) as well as a couple of hundred NGC objects. I took it out almost every clear night, while the EQ sat in the corner.
Yes they are a little more bulky but they are made out of chipboard in the base as against EQs being all metal, so in weight terms they are not that much different. Setup and navigating are sooo much simpler and simply you will see more.
I went to a couple of camps with the 8" and many with the 12" and had no problems with transporting in my Astra with a little planning.

Malcolm

[bazron]

would the image be flipped or backwards in a dob"? and do u have to collimate it?

[rustigsmed]

upside down and back to front.
not that it matters when looking at an astronomical object!

Definitely go with the dob. it is so much easier to use than an eq mount. the time taken to set the eq mount up, you would have already collimated the dob. and be enjoying the great views. you will be disapointed with the refractor and end up buying a dob down the track, if your interest in astronomy hasn't waned from the experience ....

[philipheaven]

This might sound like blasphemy but I wouldn't go for a dob. A dob is such a clumsy way to move around the sky (taking aperture into consideration). There is nothing better than a correctly aligned equatorial mount for tracking objects throughout the sky. Plus you can use the coordinates of objects for location.

As for those who say an equatorial mount is too difficult for beginners - everyone is a beginner when they first use an equatorial mount. Knowing your way around the sky does't make the first use of an equatorial mount any easier. Just face the mount true south, make sure the altitude setting is correct and off you go. Took me one evening to learn how to use an equatorial mount, and I'd never go back.

If you looking for an 8 inch reflector from Bintel get the one mounted on the eq5 skywatcher mount. Its a superb mount. The ability to track and use the setting circles will open up more avenues of interest.

[barx1963]

There is an argument for EQ mounts, but on the other hand and eq5 with 8" newt at Bintel is $999 while the dob 8" is $479.
One other factor I didn't mention is with an EQ mount the eyepiece ends up in all sorts of odd positions, while with a dob it is always in a comfortable position.

Malcolm

[philipheaven]

Yes the price is twice as much, but I think you'd still get more out of the scope due to the eq mount. I've found real joy in hunting for those faint using setting circles and dec coordinates.

I wish someone had told me the benefits of an eq mount when I was younger. My first big scope was a 10 inch dob and I found locating and tracking objects with it infuriating! And don't get me started on trying to keep a planet in your field of view at 250x.

There is something elegant about using an eq mount. It mimics the movement of the stars in the sky - can't get better than that.

[philipheaven]

And as for the eyepiece ending up in different positions, you can simply rotate the telescope in its rings - takes all of 5 seconds.

[philipheaven]

Hi barx1963 how do you find the ethos eyepieces. I hear some people say our eyes can't handle the extended FOV and therefore have to keep 'looking around.'

If that's the case doesn't 'looking around' in the eyepiece simply add to the sense of immersion?

I've got some Naglers on lay by. So excited!

[wobbygong]

Hi Aaron

I am hoping to upgrade from my venerable 80mm F15 Amasco refractor. And like you I have about 400 -500$ or so to spend on a new scope.

After reading a fair bit about this on the web it seems to me that the best value for money in terms of aperture comes with the Dob.

For $400 - 500 the best prices I have seen for 8" dobs are $449 at Andrews (Guan Sheng) and $445 at Telescopes and Astronomy (Saxon). As I understand it Bintel sells Guan Sheng but they're rebadged with a Bintel sticker, they also cost more than the Andrews ones.

I dont know whether GS or Saxon are better. I get the impression that there isn't a huge difference. But I have read good reports about the GS stuff. Especially as far as the budget conscious are concerned!

The 10" dobs were $599 at Andrews and $642 at T&A. The extra $150 -200 gets 2" more aperture... its tempting! Again, only going by what I have read - the downsides to a 10" are the hassles moving it around, the need for more frequent collimation and the fact that its F5 makes it 'need' better quality (pricey) eyepieces. Apparently you can get away with cheaper eps on the slower F6 8".

Anyway good luck!

[barx1963]

Phillip
I love my Ethos EPs. In a big scope they are the way to go. Yes I have heard about people saying the field is "too wide". Cannot understand that as my eyes produce wider fields and they have worked ok for 50 years!
I used Naglers a lot before going Ethoi and they are very nice.

With the EQ vs Dob issue. I can see what you are stating with the elegance but I still stand by my experience. I have been to lots of observing nights and can still count the number of visual observers using EQs on one hand. The EP position is a factor. On and EQ5 or heavier mount, rotating the tube was an option. With my EQ3 (which is the class of mount the OP is talking about) attempting to do that meant the mount would move. I would find an object, go to rotate and have to relocate it.
Add that to polar aligning, smaller aperture for money etc etc.

Wobbygong
The Saxons are a cheaper version of Skywatcher, both made by Synta. Yes the GSO and Bintel scopes are identical. The main diff as I understand is that Bintel actually check the scopes before hipping out while Andrews simply ship the box as it arrives from Taiwan.
Technically you get better flatter field with the more expensive EP in a faster f5 scope, but the different is minor. In my 12" I observed happily for ages with the Plossls that came with it.

Malcolm

[Tropo-Bob]

Aaron,
I would recommend a 6"(150mm) Dob. It has an F8 focus ratio, which makes the image quality accross the field more pleasant to view(although expensive eyepieces can handle faster F ratios well) as well as the telescope being lighter and U having less to worry about with colimination.

I have owned 6 & 8 inch dobs, and I tended to use the 6 much more. When I used the 8, I was always disappointed that there did not seem to be the difference that I was expecting.

U can still take some basic photos of the moon with a dob, whereas I think that little more would be achieved in imaging with the 90mm refractor and its somewhat basic mount.

However, this advice is given on the assumption that you are fit. For people that have back problems or are older, dobs can be more difficult to use because of their lowness to the ground.

[The Mekon]

The above advice from Tropo Bob is one of the most sensible posts I have seen here. A 6" f8 with its small secondary will produce excellent images - better most of the time than the 8" f6 will. My brother in law has an 8" f6 - it is representative of its type, but with standard eyepieces the performance is poor. This improves with high end oculars, but I reckon a 6" would perform better in most conditions.

[philipheaven]

I agree with the 6 inch dob. My first scope was a 10 inch dob and it was too big a scope for a first. Yes aperture is king but there is such thing as getting too big a scope too quick.

I also believe there is no point getting a dob unless you have a basic knowledge of how to get around the sky and locate objects.

[AG Hybrid]

8 Inch dob gets my vote. Wish I started with an 8 inch dob instead of 6 Inch newt on an equatorial. Beginners astronomy would have been a lot more simple and frankly fun. I seriously disagree with starting with a equatorial like an eq5 unless Astrophotography is on the cards in the near future.

An 8 inch dob is not difficult to move around, unless your bound to a wheel chair or crutches or your feeble and arthritic.

[mental4astro]

What an extraordinary statement to make, Phillip. You really believe it is pointless?

For thirty years I've been looking through scopes. The first 20 of which I only used alt az/dob mounts and charts. What this taught me was how to use a scope, how to find any target, and most importantly how to see. None of which a go-to system will do for you. Not one. I've had go-to systems too, and in the end I ditched them as they were only a hinderance, not an advance for me.

You may fool yourself that you are learning with a go-to. But you're missing out on the true training that our mind gets when put upto a task it needs to work out for itself. It is those fine motor skills and observation techniques that a go-to system will never do for you. The end result is you miss out on a whole lot more than you could. To profess otherwise shows what you've missed out on.

The greatest service you can do to someone starting out in astronomy is to guide them into the methods that will teaching them the most at the start. Sure it can be a pain in the neck, but the skills that are pickup up will allow them to make better use of an automated system, and allow them to identify and solve problems. To ask what problems again shows what you've missed out on.

6", 8", 10", 12"... ??? Aaron, you originally mentioned interest in an 8" scope. This shows you've had some consideration on what to get. I think an 8" is a great first scope. Is it too large? No, but then I don't know your situation.

I think you're on the right path scope wise. But before you lay your money down, if you only follow one thing written in your thread, it's to get yourself to a star party or astro club and see a range of different scopes for yourself. Only then will you be best able to gauge what would best suit you. You'll see what a push-pull offers and a go-to system. How large they are, and how complex they are to set up. If you then decide on a 16" Meade SCT with all the bells and whistles and that makes you coffee too, then that is great, as it is an informed decision. If you decide on your original 8" dob, great too as again it is an informed decision. A good retailer is a good place to start too. But just be aware that the scopes there are already set up and all look reeeaaaalllll good in a showroom. An in-the-field experience is even better.

Mental.

[baileys2611]

I vote for the journey rather than the end.

In other words - what's the reason to get a scope? Is it because you are interested in astronomy or is it for a specific reason up-front.

I like the idea of getting experience and being able to exchange 'war stories' about nudging my first dob every 10 seconds because I was using a 4 degree eyepiece and learning not to do that if I wanted to actually keep an opject in FOV longer than 10 second...

Some frustration involved, yes, but well worth the understanding I got about eyepieces and how they work. I was a complete new starter with my first dob, now I'm using an SCT on a paramount MX and automating everything. Later I might do what Alex is doing & get into sketching using eyepiece viewing.

Different objectives...so to speak.

[philipheaven]

Hi Alexander,
I think it is pointless getting a dob (or any other telescope for that matter) without a basic understanding of how to locate objects within the sky. Going from zero understanding of astronomy to an 8 inch dob (or 10,12,16 whatever) is too quick a move. I would recommend learning some of the basic constellations first, major bright stars etc, with the naked eye or binoculars. I don't think that's an outrageous comment to make.

As for 'go-to' telescopes, I would totally not recommend one of those for a beginner. Like you said, it takes away all of those techniques that are so important for amateur astronomy.

[mental4astro]

:thumbsup:

I now understand where you are coming from, Phillip.

Yet, I still disagree with you (well half do)! :) I do think a dob is a great way to learn, and by using the very methods you stated. But, yes, binos are fantastic tools. I always pack mine regardless of what scope I'm packing. And I still use a planisphere too, :rolleyes:, if only now jus to plan future sketching targets.

But, come to think of it, thirty years ago when I started in astro, I didn't have a scope, only my opera glasses binos and the planisphere I cut out from my old How And Why book on the stars... Hmmm, looks like you may have reopened my eyes with your last post!

[philipheaven]

I can see I didn't make my prior point very clearly. Will try and be a clearer in the future. I'm a newbie to this site (and online forums in general).

Opera glass bins? That would be a sight to see.

I've just noticed your sketches. They are brilliant. The details on your lunar drawings are as good as photos. You've got quite a talent there.

I've tried doing some sketches but mine always end up looking terrible. I do like how it challenges your eyes to see more detail, though I give up in the end because it never looks like what I'm trying to sketch.

[philipheaven]

*binos

[baileys2611]

:rofl: Were they 'pretty' bino's? You could always take them to star parties and wear a phantom mask.

Phantom of the star party.

[mental4astro]

Bugger off, Simon... :mad2: :lol:

[AG Hybrid]

Whats it matter? No one can see them in the dark!

[ManUtdFans]

I am not intending to hijack this thread but found these not sure exactly the differences beside focal length (affects FOV) I guess, from Andrews Communications:

1)Guan Sheng GS-680 8"
(200mm x 1200mm)
$429

2)
New GS-600 "fast" imaging OTA!
8" f/4 (200mm x 800mm)
$399

3) New GS-630 imaging OTA.
8" f/5 (200mm x 1000mm)
$399

I assume these 3 dob above have same build and quality?

[mental4astro]

An "imagining optimised" scope just has the primary mirror set a little closer to the focuser than it woukd be set for a "visual" scope. The focal length, in particular the focal ratio, us more significant photographically, where exposure times are shorter in a fast scope.

For visual use, and a very fast Newtonian will show more coma - a phenomenon thst only affects reflectors. Coma is a result of the eyepiece not being able to focus the light at the edge of the field of view, and is seen as the stars having little comet tails radiating out from the center. It isn't a defect, and can be corrected for by using a coma corrector. A coma corrector is essential for photography, but for visual it is upto the individual. I have an f/4 8" Newtonian and I don't use a coma corrector as I just don't find it objectionable. I actually found the one I used killed light transmission -THAT I found more objectionable. Yet other people swear by them...

Either way, an imaging optimised scope can still be used for visual. It just means needing yo use an extension tube to allow the eyepiece to focus.

[barx1963]

Also, this may be obvious, but the 680 is a dob, which is a ready to go visual only scope, while the others are OTAs only, no mounts or eyepieces.
As you are calling them all dobs, you may not have realised this and if you ordered the cheaper one it will not be useable!

As to build quality, GSO make good quality dobs for the price. As for their imaging newts, I haven't heard of any major issues, maybe if someone out there has used one and can give some feedback.

Malcolm

[ManUtdFans]

Malcolm,

You are right, I overlooked the details.
Thanks for that.

$429 for a 8 inch dob is a good buy I guess.

[barx1963]

No worries Allan.
Andrews prices are good, just remember that Andrews ship the dobs out in their boxes as they have arrived from Taiwan. Last I heard they came without assembly instructions. Good value as long as you are comfortable with that.

Malcolm

[ManUtdFans]

Interesting, when the Taiwan manufacturer packed the scope they did not include the assembling manual?

Even IKEA Chinese manufacturer included simple diagrams for a cupboard. :)

[barx1963]

Yep, if you search you will find a number of thread realted to the lack of instructions. When my 12" arrived, it had a manual (very small with a couple of not very clear diagrams) but it was for the old model with spring tensioners.
I think they tend to assume that if you are buying one of these either the retailer will assist you or you know enough about scopes to muddle through.
Having said that, as long as you have a bit of an idea what it is supposed to look like and have at least the skills to assemble an IKEA desk, they should present no problems. The assembly is only the mount as the OTA is all one piece.

Malcolm

[JRC]

Have a read of Handbook for Telescope Making by NE Howard. How easy this ready made chinese stuff is instructions or no...