NSW fires

[iceman]

Have been thinking about my IIS friends living in and around the blue mountains and northern central coast lately.

I know we've got quite a lot up in the blue mountains, including Winmalee.

I hope everyone is safe! Would love to hear from you guys and let us know how it's been - if you're even able to get online!

Shout out to the incredible effort of the firies and volunteers!

[rogerg]

I have been thinking the same. Seems a pretty bad situation over there, and like it's just come from nowhere. Not even warm spring here yet let alone summer with temperatures to burn big fires (fingers crossed).

[glend]

And of interest to those not directly affected there is the news that the smoke is laying seige to the Sydney basin and will affect astronomy for sure:

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/weather/nsw-bushfires-pollution-levels-soar-50fold-20131021-2vvyw.html

and of course the general health of the population.

[gary]

Hi Roger,

Not quite from nowhere and we have been bracing for it here in Sydney for the past month.

Sounds like it has been a lot cooler there in WA.

As the Bureau reported -


What is extraordinary is that normally records such as these are broken by fractions of a degree.
This year they are being broken by multiple degrees.

In fact it has been a year of records. On January 18th the city recorded its hottest ever day of 45.8C.

October 10th saw the third hottest October day. And so on.

Normally the bush fire season is November through March.

Anecdotally, late last month I ventured 30 meters into the neighbouring park, which covers
an area of 154 sq km on Sydney's north, to assess conditions. I have never
witnessed it so dry so early in the season. Water courses that normally
trickled out of the sandstone all year round, year in, year out have stopped
flowing. The goannas came out of hibernation about a month early. It has
felt like summer here since October.

So heaven knows what summer itself will be like.

[Brettstar6754]

I hope this Map helps my fellow IISers in the Bluemountains.http://google.org/crisismap/australia

Its worth a look,lots of detail.
B*

[strongmanmike]

Of course I am concerned about those in the path of these terrible fires, I am even in a high risk area myself.... but we are not allowed to mention the elephant in the room huh?...or we risk being labelled as politicising the reality :mad2: The IPCC makes it pretty clear but hey what would they and the Royal Society, Australian Academy of Science and NASA etc etc know? :rolleyes: all the evidence suggest it will only get worse! God help the Green Army :help:

[TrevorW]

What do you mean Mike, 6 degrees, we are moving closer to that 1 degree where we should

"Move away from the coast as sea levels rise but not to the bush
as the change in weather patterns leads to longer droughts then times of flooding with fiercer storms, so be I the harbinger of bad tidings"

:)

[strongmanmike]

Don't get you, sorry :shrug: Higher temps, longer droughts extreme weather all will increase and head in sand idiots now run our country, sorry but I am passionate about action on climate change and I make no apologies, not at all!
Mike

[gregbradley]

I was at Springwood last Thurs and it was semi apocalyptic. Dark clouds of smoke that resembled a huge thunderstorm. I was coming back from Leura and to the North the Lithgow fire was billowing the same way.
During the day it was extremely windy perhaps 50-80kmh winds.

I have gone and put sprinklers on my house roof and my observatory roof, gotten a fire pump operational with 2 x 36 metre 1 inch hose with brass fittings that draw from my pool and shot 2 x 30m plumes of water.

By the way there is a great aussie product on the market called "Ember Defender". This is a sprinkler with a metal frame that fits on the ridge of your roof and will take ordinary garden hose to run it. Brilliant.

Fire is not coming my way particularly but you've got to be prepared.

The fire I saw last Thurs was bigtime wild and it was quite threatening and unpredictable.

Greg.

[gary]

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the heads-up.

Believe we spotted one of these during tonight's ABC news segment and we
commented about it so now we know it is a sprinkler specifically targeted
to this role.

http://www.masters.com.au/product/100412133/ember-defender-roof-sprinkler

[TrevorW]

Don't disagree with you Mike, but unfortunately Govt is not led by the people only those who have the money to control it. :)

[Larryp]

There is a very good article in the latest SAM magazine (Sydney Alumni Magazine) written by The Dean of Agriculture and Enviroment, Mark Adams, on bushfires-well worth reading.
Its available online.

[strongmanmike]

And that rules out scientists huh? Not only are there no women in the federal cabinet now, heck we don't even have a minister for science anymore :screwy:

Anyway, yes fire is certainly something we need to be concerned about as yes it does contribute greenhouse gases and as Andrew Stevenson writes it contributes to the negative feedback loop...but the fact remains we humans and our thirst to burn fossil fuels at all costs and the power of those willing to shut down the science are still the elephant in the room.

Mike

[mithrandir]

I googled for that and several pages on the http://emberdefender.com.au/ site gave me a AVG popup. SWMBO would strangle me if I was to attempt to put those on the top of our 2 storey house.

[netwolf]

Hope everyone is ok, and to the firefighters, volunteers and other emergency services thank you.

[Ric]

Hi Greg

Make sure your hose is the percolating type, the water will seep through and keep it wet. nothing worse than embers burning holes through it and you end up with nothing coming out of the business end.

Cheers

[Wavytone]

I'd also be considering the likelihood of the power supply failing and having little or no water pressure when its needed, which implies you also need:

- your own emergency generator,
- water storage (tank), and
- your own pump to supply water at enough volume/pressure for the sprinklers.

[Larryp]

In the '94 fires in Bangor/Menai, the power was turned off and there was no water pressure because the fire services were using so much water-garden hoses were useless, as was our electric pool pump.
After that, we bought a petrol powered firefighting pump so we could access our pool water in an emergency.

[Wavytone]

Now that a significant area of the Blue Mountains has been effectively cleared by fire - and all the wildlife in it - I'll raise a provocative issue.

The whole of Europe and Asia have been occupied by humanity for thousands of years and on the whole the vegetation is far from "natural" - humans have exercised conscious decisions over what vegetation is allowed to grow where for millennia and the landscapes you see now are the result of that process.

We cannot continue to cling to the past and expect areas like the blue mountains to remain as lush and green as it was in past years, full of eucalypts. Things change - and climate change is going to force major changes in the native flora and fauna whether we like it or not. We can sit by passively and watch as it is periodically burnt in hot years and grows back in wetter years, letting nature running its course, as the greenies would wish.

Or we can start to proactively make some decisions about what grows where, to deliberately reduce the risk of fire. It will take many decades, perhaps a century or two to complete this, but it can be done and is certainly not beyond us.

The fire hazard in this country stems to a significant extent from the inherent flammability of the vegetation, notably the eucalypts but also several other species that have a high level of volatile and flammable oils. One way to reduce the hazard would be to consider getting rid of these - particularly the eucalypts - and planting something else instead that does NOT pose the same risk and will grow in the same environment. There are many substitutes - oriental, european and american - although frowned on currently for not being "native".

Each time a large fire does us a huge favour by clearing the eucalypts we should be out there afterwards with a mass campaign of seeding the area with less flammable substitutes. I'm not suggesting clearing it for agriculture or tree plantations (erk) but instead aerial seeding of a mix of suitable species to create a different sort of forest that isn't so flammable, everything from ground covers to trees. Botanists know enough about the cycles of growth and regeneration now to do this, IMHO.

Oh, and before you ask "what about the wildlife", it is doomed sooner or later, either:

- adapt to the new vegetation,
- starve or move elsewhere,
- be wiped out by the next fire.

Conclusion:

A weed is the wrong plant in the wrong place. IMHO many eucalypts are weeds, very big ones. The time has come to do something about them.

[AndrewJ]

Maybe we should just cut everything down and cover it all in concrete ( painted green of course ). Lots of development opportunities,
and no need for worry in the future.
If you want to see Flora or Fauna, just look it up on your IDevice.

Australia managed to survive for thousands of years
until people moved in and upset the balance.
ie even if you replanted with "different" species, unless its managed, fuel will build up and it will burn.

Nth Europe doesnt have lots of big fires because it doesnt have long dry summers. Watch what happened in Greece/Spain etc recently and you will see that it still burns given the right conditions.

Andrew

[MortonH]

Agree. It's us humans that should be adapting to the environment, not the other way around.

[Larryp]

USA has different forest to us, and they still have horrendous bushfires. If a region has hot, dry summers, and is perhaps subject to drought, it will burn regardless of the species of flora.

[glend]

Its naive to assume european flora could survive very long in Australia without human care. Australian species are adapted to the environment over millions of years. Australia has always had bush fires whether started by the natives, or nature, and I had to chuckle at the Greens effort to blame Tony Abbott for the Blue Mtns fires but of course some people will believe that rubbish.

Just as sailors that venture to sea must expect waves, wind, storms, etc the people of Australia have to accept the unique environment that makes it special. If you want oak trees and elms etc then move to where they thrive.

[multiweb]

Soooo... are you gonna send back your jumbo oversized power hungry imaging system and do your bit for the planet? :question: Take up a hobby with a lower carbon footprint? Like singing? ;) Watch out for those CO2 emissions though. :P Nah... buy a couple of pot plants to compensate. Just don't sing at night. :lol:

[gregbradley]

Yes that is a common scenario. I have a generator fuelled and ready to go right next to my water pump for the house. I also have a 5.5hp petrol
fire pump with 2 x 36 metre hoses with brass fittings and I practiced with it to see everything worked (that step is important as the supplied hoses were not operational and one failed almost immediately - popped off its fittings, another snaked around and the plastic nozzle split rendering it useless). Brings new meaning to the phrase all messed up like fire drill.

Greg.

[Poita]

I've used these and they work.
http://emberdefender.com.au/
But make sure you have your own petrol firefighter pump, and wet canvas-type, not poly, hose for it, the hose stays damp and doesn't melt like poly ones. Also make sure you have an independant water supply to run it.

We also had fire-mesh to put up in the windows when we had the property, if the windows blow out with the heat, then the mesh stops the embers getting inside the house and burning it from the inside out.
If you are going to live in a potential fire zone, you need to be properly prepared and invest some dollars and time in proper prevention measures. No guarantees, but the amount of people whose homes I defended over the years in my time in the RFS, I was constantly amazed how poorly prepared most of them were.
I was up in Blackheath/Bell this week and sadly the same was still true.

[strongmanmike]

Actually the dome acoustics are great, O Sole Mio makes it ring like a bell :)

[mithrandir]

The vibrations can't be good for imaging.

[casstony]

If there was one lesson to be learned from the Victorian fires it would be don't stay to defend against a ferocious fire in strong winds. Even those who did survive such an experience were left traumatized afterwards, not to mention the angst they put their friends and family though during the event.

[hotspur]

Some really helpful info there Peter-this 'Ember Defender' looks very good.

Good to see a positive helpful post:thumbsup:

Hard to process images seen of these fires,thoughts go out to those in these areas,there are a few IIS members in these areas,hope they are ok.

[Shano592]

The Rutleys Rd fire was about 5km from our house, and but for wind direction, I think we could have been riding up Manure Drive without a saddle. We have almost continuous bushland (except for roads) from where the fire started right up to our back fence.

Funny (peculiar) thing is, Sue and I had just arrived back home from rainy Perth (for a month's work), and were heading out to grab groceries. As we headed out, we were both commenting on how much the ground resembled Perth in February, after a scorching summer.

Less than an hour later, we got an SMS from the Outlaws, saying that a fire was up and possibly headed our way.

The size of the fire was pretty intimidating, even from 5km away. ... I really feel for those in the Blue Mountains, Lithgow and the Southern Highlands. Those fires seem like a few orders of magnitude greater.

And without politicising too heavily, if one group is to blame, then we all are. The Government of the day (especially after a whole month) can't be held responsible for the world's climate! Not when we produce such a small percentage of emissions.

Personally, I think banning cigarettes would have a better effect - sorry Deeno!. Since Monday alone, I have seen a dozen idiots throw lit ciggies from cars, to watch the embers scatter on the road. Where I live there are no kerbs, so they roll off into the roadside grass. Man, I'd just love to have the power to pull them over and write them a ticket.

Maybe smoking outside should be added to the total fire ban?

[gary]

Thank goodness for some rain overnight. I actually can't remember the last time we
had any.

Unfortunately it was not enough and with it now 30C at 11:40am its benefits
will be short lived.

Shane mentioned the hazard of cigarettes.

One behaviour that I have observed is the hotter the weather, the more likely the
smoker/driver is to have the window wound down ashing the cigarette outside.

Anecdotally, I will sometimes come up Pennant Hills Road in Sydney's north
and in the traffic the driver in front of me will periodically stick their arm out - illegal
and distracting in itself - and ash their cigarette.

Then as we all turn into the M1 Pacific Motorway (previously known as the F3)
and accelerate first up to 80km/h and shortly after up to 110km/h, without fail,
out the window the cigarette goes, bouncing and sparking along the freeway.
They then wind their window up to stop the noisy rush of air coming in.

This behaviour is so consistent that I will say to myself or my passenger,
"Wait for it. Wait for it. There it goes", with a near 100% prediction rate.

Unfortunately it is not just an isolated incident but common enough to
be a significant danger.

Perhaps it's pathological.

We have had fires in our own area start in precisely this manner with the grass
on the side of the road becoming set alight. The freeway itself has also been closed
at time due to fires starting in the grass on the sides.

[Liz]

Take care all, scary stuff . :sadeyes:

[Shano592]

Apparently, a new fire at the north end of the M1, at Minmi.

M1 closed beyond the Newcastle Link Road. Take care all.

[DavidU]

This wind doppler does not look good. The fires themselves are showing.
http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR71I.loop.shtml#skip

[slowflow]

Stay safe you can't be replaced.

[icytailmark]

check this out

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24627498

fires look bad from space

[Hagar]

:mad2:

Firstly my heart goes out to those who are in dire straights and those who are yet to be touched by such disasters.

Mike, your drum is getting very worn. I'm sure you could politisise a piss in the park. Give it a rest.
Try showing some compassion for those who aren't as fortunate as yourself instead ofr pushing party politics at every turn. Stick to imaging. :mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2 ::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad 2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::ma d2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::m ad2:

[strongmanmike]

Ah Dougie :hi: you ol'cranky pants :lol: hope we cross paths at a star party again someday and we can sort our differences out properly over a beer :cheers: :thumbsup:

Not Politics just science.

I feel for the fire victims, as we all do and heck I may yet be one myself this summer (then I will be really mad). Watching the terrible devastation unfold in such fires is very sobering and scary and heartbreaking to watch (as it was only a few months ago when we nearly lost the AAO at Siding Spring in the worst fires to hit the Warrumbugles in white mans history) and to lose most or all of your possessions in an instant would be unimaginably upsetting.

The problem is when all the science tells us that the climate change that is occurring will make these events more frequent and more ferocious, yet so many people still ignore the science including our new conservative government who happily aligned themselves (all be it carefully) with the Climate Change denying clan, yes, I am very concerned and it is this that I make no apologies for pointing out.

I was essentially responding to Gary's post regarding the record temperatures we have been getting, you see, Gary is in that group of individuals who are very insightful and highly intelligent and he knows his stuff :)

Stay safe Doug and I forgive you :love:

Mike

[Hans Tucker]

Jeez...I feel for Mike (Iceman). All he wanted to do from starting this thread was to have other IIS members spare a thought for those dealing with the recent bush fires and for those IIS members affected by the bush fires to drop us a quick message to let us know how you are doing...it's a shame the original intent of the thread has been somewhat overlooked...possibly forgotten. :sadeyes:

The fact that some are unapologetic for steering the thread off topic is even sadder :sadeyes::sadeyes:

[strongmanmike]

No, not forgotten at all Hans and no need to "feel" for Mike either I am sure, it is but a thread on a forum...so I think he'll live. Anyone that wishes to post will do so I am sure and I will be relieved to hear any good news.

Mike

[Kunama]

Lets get this back on track then and leave the politics for another day, I for one am thankful for these guys and girls that give of their time and energies so freely to protect life and property.
Having volunteered with the Yarrowlumla Bushfire Brigade nearly 3 decades ago when fires burnt all round the Canberra area I saw the devastation to people's lives when faced with fire damage. :thanx: :bowdown:

[Shark Bait]

It was good to see our GG visit some of the burnt out areas and praise the fire fighters on the ground. It will all help to highlight the damage to lives and property.

It was no surprise to hear that a fire was started by a Defence live fire exercise. I was in the GRes and every time we fired WP rounds we started bushfires. Usually they would burn out due to the range being full of craters.

[Peter Ward]

In 1994 I had just arrived in Melbourne, and my wife called my mobile asking whether I could come home ( next stop was supposed to be LAX ). Asking why, I got the answer we had a dozen or more fire trucks in our street and they wanted to have all residents evacuated. Jayuusss H...what did you just say!???

I flew back that afternoon to the appalling sight from the air of much of Southern Sydney going up in smoke.

Never made it home, as the roads were closed, and was reunited with my family at an out if area friend of a friend's house.

We were allowed back to our street at 2:00am, not knowing whether we had a house to come home to. Our house was spared.

The very next day I called out insurer and jacked up the building replacement value and doubled our contents cover.

Given the prospect of having * everything you own* raised to the ground is very sobering.

Most insurance policies have limits on all sorts of items unless individually specified on the policy. I strongly implore anyone on this group who lives in an area close to the bush to do an audit of replacing an entire household's clothes, shoes, valuables, kitchen appliances, white-goods, computers, cameras, telescopes etc. etc.

Check the policy limits, you may well find the coverage to be woefully inadequate. We changed insurers as a result. Sorry for the long post...but I thought it worth mentioning

[Hagar]

Good move Mike from politics to patronising. Unlike you I have been through many bushfires and disasters of all types working for a rescue organisation in Victoria for many years. Climate change or not, a kid with a match, a strong wind and a hot day will do it every time. Leave politics out of it and show some compasion. Who cares if Siding springs looses a telescope, put your family on the fire line a see if you care about a telescope.
My heart goes out to all those in dire positions and even more so for the volunteer firemen who put themselves on the line every day often only to be greeted with the news that their own properties have been destroyed. It seems to happen every fire and unfortunately there also seems to be a volunteer or two killed or seriously injured.

Thanks to all who make this dedicated effort to help everyone else often at their own expence.

:shrug:

NB, I have done nothing to require your forgiveness.

[mithrandir]

Following on from Peter's comment on insurance we've been chasing quotes for the place we're moving to next month - a bit closer to the bush.

Every insurance company says the site clearance and rebuild cost for the house is more than we paid for the house and land. This is a well maintained property in suburban Sydney so it's not like the place is a wreck or there are remote area costs involved.

SWMBO thought that our contents were seriously over-insured but since I started packing I'm not sure about that. I am going to have to specify all the photo and astro gear because none of the insurers will cover those items for replacement cost without them being listed.

[strongmanmike]

Oh dear :question: perhaps you deserve a medal? :hi: amen

Mike

[Barrykgerdes]

I must appologise first for highjacking this thread which is supposed to be a vote of appreciation to the RFS who do such a wonderful job in the bush fire season.:thumbsup: Some have tried to put forward the political reason for the hot summer so I will also put forward a far better reason: Daylight saving!:mad2:

As we all know in the summer months we get an extra hour of daylight (that's what we are told). This extra hour in the sun every day must surely be raising the summer temperatures.:mad2:

Then answer then to stop the temperature rise is to cancel daylight saving.:thumbsup::lol:

Barry

[strongmanmike]

By golly, Gabby Johnson's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pus6XF_qh38) right, what a great idea more imaging time too Bazza :thumbsup:

Loved that movie, a classic :lol:

[strongmanmike]

Ok, no more highjacks...and just in case, that video link was just meant to be light hearted and in no way intended to detract from the seriousness of the fires, the devastation they cause and the guys who fight them. I am putting in place a few plans for our property so hopefully I'll be right.

Mike

[multiweb]

mate... below the belt. :rolleyes:

[casstony]

Forty years ago, growing up on a fairly remote farm, we used to do our own fuel reduction burn off on and around the property in the cool season. It seems like common sense to do regular fuel reduction burns adjacent to all populated areas.

We never would have dreamed of building a house amongst the trees as people do these days though - makes the house a sitting duck.

[Hagar]

Post withdrawn, It's not worth wasting any more time on this fool.

[clive milne]

Doug... I'll put up a hundred bucks to see you try.

[Hagar]

Thanks Clive, Send it to your local volunteer fire service.

No worth the effort.

[clive milne]

Au contraire... lets make it $200 plus a hundred for the bush fire service.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Sure is Peter.

Not sure if this has been previously posted, but here are the before and after images of Van Slyke Instruments (Black Forest Fire), taken from their website (http://www.observatory.org/). It is enough to make one cry.

I hope they recover from it, I am not sure I could.

Pete

[Hagar]

You have me a little confused Clive. What are you betting on, that I can shut up or that Mike will crush me?
Either way you loose. Just make the donation, I'm sure they need it.

[strongmanmike]

Gee some beautiful gear lost there. I imagine the Stromlo workshops would have looked something like that back in 2003 too :sadeyes:...the good thing is after being risen from the ashes the Stromlo workshops are even better now :thumbsup:

[mental4astro]

I've been speaking to the manager of Katoomba Airfield about the Blue Mountains situation over the last couple of weeks. Things were have started winding down at the Airfield. Last night they had just 6 aircraft stay overnight, well down from the upto 13 they were having last week. Only one sky crane was there last night when last week they had two.

Our regular astro session at the Airfield had been a very fluid one for this coming Saturday. The Airfield manager has given us the OK for our session for this Saturday! While the fires will burn for many weeks still, there is no current threat to the Airfield or surrounds. And while there are still many fire fighters up on the 'Mountains, we have offered these brave folks an astro viewing session at the start of the night as a little way of saying Thank You, and as a small distraction from their labours.

If you feel you could come along with a scope, please do. This is just an informal thank you from us astronomers. More details on the Firies astro night and on the Airfield can be found on the current Katoomba Airfield thread (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=113250). Post No. 1 has the Airfield details. Post No.23 has the Firies Night details.

Fingers crossed that the wind blows from the south to keep the smoke away.

Alex.

[Ric]

Hi Alex

I reckon the guys will enjoy that.

we've been working on a large fire in the Budawang Ranges at Mt Wirritin. When you can see the sky it would make a perfect dark sky spot, absolutely fantastic views.

The only drawback is that there are some pretty mean 4WD tracks to get into it, I'm not sure if the scopes would appreciate being bounced around.

[mental4astro]

Hi Ric,

The unsealed road to the Airfield is currently in good condition. We make use of the Airfield pretty much every month, with all types of cars making it there with no problem. We've had upto 18 scopes set up there, :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

Further information is that Van Slkye workshop was also flooded directly after the fires and it will not be rebuild. The loss of another astro accessory firm.

[Hans Tucker]

Was the Advanced Instrumentation Technology Centre a part of the Stromlo observatory before 2003 or was it born out of the ashes post Canberra fires?

[Kunama]

Like Phoenix it rose from the ashes, a very very modern $25M facility. The previous workshops were on the western side facing toward the Bridabellas and bore the brunt of the fires in 2003. At their site are now a few 3.5m? domes for students to use.