Are our reactions unscientific?

[josh]

Hey all.
I know this is a touchy subject for many here... and that is the very reason im bringing it up. Im very curious about the very strong reaction most astronomers have whenever astrology is mentioned. Dont get me wrong i know next to nothing about the belief system apart from what star sign i am so dont attack. My point is that surely there has been or is currently some form of study{scientific} into the effects the movments of the heavens may have on us, it seems a little strange to think that this wonderous universe we live in has no effect on us what so ever. I have no idea what those affects may be but i do think its a little small minded to ignore the possibility. Its a big thought and such a question does not leave the human mind with the secure boundaries it seems to crave, such uncertainties tend to make us a little hostile.:scared:
I say again this post is not about astrology, i dont really care for that take on it, so dont get stuck into em.
I would just really like to hear some intelligent thoughts on the matter and i can think of no better place to discuss it than here.
Or have i crossed some invisible line, should we as astronomers not ask such questions?:shrug:
p.s sorry if this is in the wrong section, wasnt sure where to plonk it..maybe general chat? please move it if this is no good
Thanks all..{runs away to hide}

[Miaplacidus]

Mmmmmm, Josh.

Well, Kepler was convinced that the movement of the heavens had a direct bearing on our individual lives, so much so that it drove him to work with Tycho and ultimately come up with his "laws" of celestial motion (hidden for many years, one might add, in amongst a lot of astrological hocus pocus and wishful thinking). Science is always a bit of a con job: it really only finds better ways of describing in a predictable fashion things that we can never fully understand. Newton didn't say anything that we didn't know intuitively anyway when he first described the laws of gravity. Action at a distance still remains one of the universe's greatest mysteries. We feel happier being able to measure it more accurately is all (rather than ascribing it to Leibniz's "vortices" or God's angels.)

Yours,

The essentially unknowable Brian.

[xelasnave]

:hi: Good morning Josh,
You probably are now in the never never but I certainly understand your drift.
When someone heard I was into astronomy they gave some useful books on "astrology" quiet old, but they were absolutely faithful plottings of planets etc such that anyone looking at this book if you changed the title to astronomy you would not have know it was not intened for same. All that it left me was the preoccupation with some is extrodinary:eyepop: .
Past the possibility that we may experience a tidal effect on our blood supply by the Moon causing more or less blood to be available to our brains and thereby influence our behaviour:screwy: is as far as I could take it...and that is more to give "their" side a go;) . Some see a relationship between the full Moon and "activity" (ask a policeman) but can any thing of signifficance be drawn from that I doubt it..may be there is more light so more opportunity of mischief:D .
I suspect that the "force" behind astrology is in the box we call "self forfilling prophesy"...
I live in a similar district to you and I bet you enjoy a wide variety of beliefs from those in your community and suspect the astronomer would be "the odd man out" being well outnumbered by those who absolutely believe the world works under the influence of the stars. So I suspect you may also be looking for ammunition for an against case... but its an argument best avoided as a no win contest.
I was absolutely rocked one day when telling a lady of my interest when she said "oh hubby is into that" he came it no " I am interested in astronomy and astrollogy"... usually I like talking astronomy but on that occassion I changed the subject very smartly .... maybe he is the guy to talk to it would be entertaining to hear his reconcilliation of the two.
Personally I recon it is us that influence the motion of the stars and planets such is our greatness:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
alex

[Argonavis]

Josh

Over 2000 years of opposition from the Christian and Moslem religions has not stopped astrology, so the dissapproval of astronomers will have a similar effect. People seem to want to believe.

My wife works in an aged care facility and sees people die every week. There are no bright lights or angels or happy smiling relatives..it's just an organic process which is often unpleasant. People still write books about "life after life" because other people buy them and there is lots of money in it and people just want to believe.

Michael Schemer is a well known skeptic who impersonates psychics and astrologers and tarot card readers. When he reveals to his audience that he is just conning them their reaction is not "...aren't I silly to believe this nonsense, I am so easily fooled..." but anger that someone has attempted to take away thier cherised beliefs.

Science operates on the requirement for evidence to support an hypothesis before it becomes a theory, when is is then accepted as a scientific consensus on how the world works. Gravity, as defined by Sir Isaace Newton, is a set of mathematical equations. There is lots of evidence to support it and can be used to predict future events. Even though it involves action at a distance, is makes predictions that can be tested. And it passes every test. Einsteins equations from his special theory of relativity is still being tested by physicists, and they pass every test. Accordingly, it is generally believed that Einsteins theories accurately describe the Universe as we see it.

Astrology has no such support from any evidence whatsoever. I guess astronomers get sick of people carrying on with this nonsense, and maybe jealous that astrologers earn so much money from being dishonest. A lot of serious minded researchers have tested astrology. Much of this research has been undertaken by psychologists and the like, who are interested in measuring personality. Of the hundreds of studies undertaken, there is no evidence at all that astrology "works" in the sense of predictability - predicting future events or someone's personality. It is a research dead end. There is no hypothesis of how astrology would work, so nothing much to test anyway. The effect that the "gravity" of the Sun amd Moon, much less the far distant planets, has on the human body is totally non-existent. There are no other mechanisms that would account for the effect of the placement of the planets to the events on Earth. There was one French researcher (now deceased) who claimed to have found an influence from when some of the planets were rising at the time of birth on personality and occupation. His work could not be reproduced by other researchers, so he is now discredited. Nevertheless, I notice that the astrology lobby still uses him as a pinup boy to bolster their non-existent credibility.

Sorry to go on a bit but I often come across people who seem to accept astrology and lots of other nonsense beliefs without any foundation, so I need to have my arguments all lined up. There just seems to be so many medieval beliefs out there, that it seems to be part of the human emotional template to want to believe. Science, on the other hand, wants evidence.

[Dennis]

In the 1970’s, a French psychologist, Michael Gauquelin (sp?) published a large statistical analysis of astrology, where he identified people at the top of their trade, e.g. sports persons, military leaders, actors, artists, etc and looked for "meaningful" correlations between their dominant personality traits and the characteristics of the personality model(s) offered by astrology.

It would appear that the so called objective data from his investigation were able to both support, and dispel, some of the key elements of astrology, as some say he “disproved” astrology whilst others say his work “proved” it? Where to from here?

Cheers

Dennis

[xelasnave]

So has everyone read their "horror scope" today:lol: :lol: :lol:
mind you when you think about it astronomy would have been "funded" by many leaders seeking to understand the intentions of the Gods (not only in acient times I fear)
alex

[Argonavis]

Alex

The Full Moon effect is very selective...when things get busy it must be due to a Full Moon, even if there isnt one. People want explanations. My wife works in nursing and seems to have the same belief - if it is a full moon then activity will be higher. Sometimes when I know the Moon is Full I will ask if she has had a busy night...no? really?

Of course there is more illumination at night when the Moon is Full (substantially more than either before or after) so activity will increase for that reason. This was probably more true in historical times when artificíal lighting was not widespread like it is today.

A quick search on google on the many urban myths and legends sites will lead you to research that indictes that there is no increased activity around Full Moon in hospitals or increased criminal activity, at least more than the normal random variation would allow.

This makes sense to me, as there is no reason or hypothesis to account for increased activity. The Full Moon has no effect on you or me other than providing more light at night and giving us something to look at through our telescopes. I am always awed by the number of craters with ray systems that become obvious during Full Moon.

Of course, people argue the "tidal effect" - if the oceans have tides then the Moon must effect us. This shows zero understanding of tides. Even on the TV news I hear "it's a Full Moon so the tides will be bigger", lots of ignorance out there, where do I start the education process? My fish tank does not have tides, and neither do I. The gravitational potential between one side of my fishtank, and between one side of me and the other, is inconsequental. It is only when we scale up to the size of the Earth that we get a significant difference between gravity on one side to the other that creates a tidal effect. It not only raises the oceans but the crust of the Earth as well. Nature is awesome, you don't need to invent weird stuff up. And higher tides occur when the Sun and Moon line up, at New Moon.

cheers

[Argonavis]

Dennis

His work was never able to be reproduced, and he is discredited.

[Volans]

G'day All,

I concur with Argonavis' comments regarding people needing to believe. But I'd like to answer Josh's question from a slightly different perspective.



I'll admit Josh, that you want to know from a scientific angle why astronomers get annoyed with astrology and as mentioned, I go along with what has already been posted but I also get annoyed because of the inability some people have in differentiating between the two words and therefore between the two subjects.

Some of you may recall the green meteor that shot over the Brisbane region not too long ago. There were reports aplenty in the paper and one reporter had a quote from a memeber of the Astronomical Association of Queensland (AAQ). However, this person was reported as belonging to the Queensland Astrological Society.

In last week's Courier Mail, there was an article on the planetarium and my boss was quoted as well (minor stuff about what to look for when buying a telescope etc.) The reporter went on to say that this "astrological advice" was invaluable.

To make matters worse, this woman had just sat in on one of our school shows where we talk 100% astronomy for 45 minutes solid. We show images of galaxies, nebulae, sunspots, we discuss the formation of the Sun and planets. Yet, after 45 minutes of being bombarded with astronomy, she cannot comprehend the difference.

It also bespeaks something about the editors for allowing such rot to pass into print.

I'm also of the opinion that if these people were told of their gross ignorance in such a basic matter, they would give a shrug and a go off with a "who cares?" attitude. But this does not stop me from urging my boss to contact that cretinous reporter and tell her to go back to cadet journalism school.

So I get annoyed because people can't tell the difference because the words are similar and they can't be bothered to learn the difference, thus showing off their ignorance and stupidity.

Peter.

[Dennis]

Except by those who seemingly still support his work........

I have not made a study of this, so I cannot pass comment either way.

Cheers

Dennis

[astro_nutt]

I agree with you Volans, I have seen errors in print confusing the two. It amazes me that this has also been "proof-read"...and it's a wonder why people get confused!!..HA!
I do get asked about astrology from time to time, I reply that people have a choice what they want to believe. If they believe that the movement of the Sum, Moon and planets affect their daily lives and they're happy about that?..fine!!..
But astronomy is a science, a hobby, an adventure and the proof is real..it's there or waiting to be discovered.
Big diffrence!

[Starkler]

I read something somewhere to the effect that a major reference source of the positions and orbits of celestial bodies etc used by astrologers is in fact innacurate and factually incorrect, making any extrapolated claims wrong in any case being based on false data.

Does anyone know anything about this ?

[astro_nutt]

Just looking at a copy of Astronomy 2006 Australia on page 21 shows the planet positions in relation to certain Constellations...Hmmm!

[CoombellKid]

I have heard of this, and was told Astrology doesn't take into account
Precession.

regards,CS

Rob

[Dennis]

It appears there are several, different systems used in astrology.

The actual, celestial zodiac is a band, extending ± 8 degrees above/below the ecliptic, which more or less bounds the planes of the orbits of the 7 planets known to older civilizations’. Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are “modern” planets and therefore do not figure in astronomy or astrology prior to their discovery. There are constellations that are physically large in extent e.g. Virgo, and smaller ones, e.g. Aries. One system uses these so maybe Virgo is 40 deg in extent, whereas Aries may be 15 degrees (guessing for illustrative purposes).

Another system simply divides the imaginary celestial sphere into 12 equal segments, of 30 degrees each, and labels these segments as the constellations. Thus, these are an abstraction and not the real McCoy as it were.

And of course as astronomers, we all know that over a (very) long period of time, the patterns of the constellations change, due to the proper motion of stars.

The zodiac “starts” with Aries as I understand it, because several thousand years ago, the Vernal Equinox or First Point of Aries was actually in the physical constellation Aries. Due to the precession of the equinoxes, this is no longer the case. I seem to recall that in my childhood, I was living in the “Age of Aquarius”, so I assume the First Point of Aries is now either in the physical constellation of Aquarius, or in the abstracted 30 deg segment of the celestial sphere labeled as Aquarius by astrologers?

The mathematical calculations used by astrologers provide them with the framework for their interpretations. However, we have the real zodiac and the abstract zodiac and depending on which one is used, a certain planet can “appear” to be in different signs of the zodiac, yet describe some behavioral model of an individual. I have never seen an explanation of how this can be, but then I’ve never been interested enough to pursue it any further.

Ironically, as a young boy, I was mistakenly given a copy of a book called “Teach Yourself Astrology” (I wanted Astronomy), but I put it to good use by reading the chapter on celestial mechanics and learning about the celestial sphere, ecliptic, precession of the equinoxes, etc., which the book described quite well, in common with astronomy text books.

So yes, there are different systems; some natural, some man made and as we know, they are subject to the vagaries of change, discoveries of new planets, etc.

Cheers

Dennis

[mickoking]

I don't give Astrology any creedence but I don't have any problems if people believe or have faith in it. If people, scientific materialists if you like get annoyed by Astrology thats fine too but individuals are entitled to believe in what they do.

[Argonavis]

As i said earlier, he is the pinup boy of the astrology wackos - who probably didn't understand that his work (if correct) invalidated much of astrology.

He claimed he found a statistically significant link between occupation and what planets were rising over the horizon at the time (as best as I can recall without going back to the original work). He found no other links with astrological signs and houses, trines or aspects.

His work was picked up by the astrology wackos as the it was the first real study (after many hundreds of failed ones) to demonstate some link between the heavens and human activity.

No-one could reproduce his work and it is now believed to be statistically flawed. Note that the effect he found was merely a tendancy or slightly higher probably, not a 1:1 relationship that would constitute a physical law.

and like much science, it was twisted by popular culture into something it wasn't.:mad2:

[Starkler]

I recall my younger days socialising in pubs/nightclubs I would occasionally meet young ladies who not long after finding out my name, would then ask what my star sign is, as if it gives them some tool to quickly categorise me.

Occasionally the response would be "egh a capricorn". I would have to say that this is the most small minded and fallacious of all reasons to discriminate against another person. Not that it bothered me any, as I knew as soon as I was asked what my star sign was, that she was not my type anyway :screwy:

[Argonavis]

Quite correct Dennis - in fact it makes astrology a moving target. You can go into the bookstore and find Chinese astrology and Indian astrology and lots of other variations. It seems similar to religion, lots of different intrepretation of sacred texts.

The original Greek astrology came from a book written by Ptomley - yes the same one who wrote "The Almagest".

[Volans]

This might be sailing a touch close to the wind for some, but I do believe that you can very broadly categorize human personalities into 12 generalised types. You can label these types in whatever way you see fit, 1, A, Leo, Red, Eucalyptus grandis, Zinc, whatever you want.

But can anyone determine the future or even a generalised outline of the fate of any of these types based on planetary positions? I think not.

People want to believe and if the plausible things are said with enough confidence and if the person percieves you to be an authority on the subject then you can get away with the most outrageous comments.

I've done this myself (but have always let on in the end that it was a jest).

Recently we had a very good replica of Neil Armstrong in full moonwalk suit made and installed in the planetarium. It is so real that I have come up with a little joke that I play on people and they believe it initially..until I smile and they realise it's a joke.

I tell them that Neil Armstrong has recently passed away and that because America saw him as a national hero, they had him stuffed and dressed in his moonwalk suit and we have him on loan from NASA for 6 months. :P

OK..back to topic...basically believe what you want and tell people about it but don't ram it down their throats. Keep an open mind as well.

Peter.

[Argonavis]

Actually I do. Maybe that makes me a "scientific materialist".

I was driving on the inner-city-bypass yesterday and I was astounded by a sight I had seen many times before. Against the backdrop of a deep clear blue sky that characterises a Brisbane winter, I saw these magnificent buildings rising 20 and 30 stories high. It was of course the CBD and the many skyscrapers that have been build there. These are as great if not greater an achievement of our culture and civilisation than any pyramid or tomb. They may be familiar, but they are astounding.

They were not build by people who "believe in anything". They, and all of our material culture, is built on physical laws and scientific and engineering accomplishments. The fact that this is not reflected in our social culture I find a little tragic. Does the Women's Weekly have a science and technology column? No? What does this say? Why do people go home and pick up their magic wand and wave it and their magic screen to watch mindless drivel? People are this disconnected from understanding how their TV remote operates their TV. They are this ignorant of the world around them. No wonder people will believe just about anything. No wonder scientists struggle to find funding. I sometimes wonder how our species emerged from living in caves. The human mind is a wonderful thing - it can imagine a bridge or building and go out and build it or it can invent drivel (like eugenitics) and go out and mass murder. I think Volans has mission impossible in front of him.

And no, our social culture does not approve of us "believeing in anything" - I think the neighbours would look askance at me if I practiced cannibilism over my backyard BBQ.

[Dennis]

That reminds me of some research done by Sheldon in the 1940’s and used by the American military to categorise personnel intake.

It seems he discovered or defined three distinct categories of human bodies:
the endomorph, characterized by a preponderance of bodyfat;
the mesomorph, marked by a well-developed musculature; and,
the ectomorph, distinguished by a lack of either much fat or muscle tissue.

From these I understand he also developed associated temperaments aligned to these body types, or soma types.

If I remember correctly, it was along the lines of Feeling, Doing and Thinking. Carl Gustav Jung’s classification of introvert and extravert also spring to mind. So, we now appear to have a modern language that seeks to describe human behaviour based upon physical characteristics.

Just wondering if the language of astrology began in this way?

Cheers

Dennis

[xelasnave]

"I tell them that Neil Armstrong has recently passed away and that because America saw him as a national hero, they had him stuffed and dressed in his moonwalk suit and we have him on loan from NASA for 6 months."
That is terrible:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Man I can see the faces I really can :lol: :lol: :lol:
I am going to use that one...
I think I may print some tickets and start selling them.
alex

[xelasnave]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: cant stop
alex

[avandonk]

I prefer to take apart some watches and lenses and add nuts and bolts shake all the bits in a big crystal jar and then pour the contents onto a large map. From the resultant arrangement I can predict the future in love,money,luck,health and anything else you could care to name.
This is a modern version of the Roman's chicken entrails.

This method is as valid as any other method not based on real testable and hence predictive science. That is of no use whatsoever!

Bert

[janoskiss]

:rofl::rofl::rofl: :sad: :rofl::rofl::rofl: :sad: :rofl::rofl::rofl: :sad:
... the Neil Armstrong thing ...
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[xelasnave]

I have recovered I will now question myself what it was that set me off. But I went on a cave tour recently and simply saw all those "faces" in dim lite nodding with understanding and interested looks upon their faces, the guide could have said a deposit was laid 9-37 am two million years ago and they would have nodded :lol: :lol: :lol:
Argon Avis I sence your frustration with "the masses" and on a side note
I think it is sad that when out today I realised I forgot to see how the launch went... the most exciting thing on the car radio was something about big brother. We are at a point in space exploration of possibly the highest significance in the history of space history (I mean problems for the mission spell doom ) I could not believe... I dont know if I just kept missing news or it simply was not on???
On the Moon thing its seems there is a corralation with activity at least around the township of Drake. The subject came up and those present started to relate stories of the good old days when they used have Full Moon Paries from some of the yarns I heard today the urban myth re Full Moon could have started right there;) .
You make perfect sence to me.
alex

[mickoking]

Neil Armstrong..........you guys are funny :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :thumbsup:

[Gargoyle_Steve]

As was briefly mentioned in a previous post there is a reason to what "sign" is said to be the major influece when you are born, and it has very little to do with where the actual constellations were at the time of your birth, obviously, since every constellation passes overhead at some time during a single day. To allocate a period of approx 30 days to being under the influene of a single constellation seems ludicrous to me.

It so happened that I was born around lunchtime (12:26 I believe) in mid July (yes, my birthday is a little over a week away .... and yes I like big shiny things for presents :D) and so I am designated as being born under Cancer. If I make an assumption for a moment and say it was perhaps actually the constellation of Taurus that was directly over my birth (I'll check the Starry Night software later and see) then someone born later in the afternoon would have had Cancer directly overhead when they were born, someone born later again may have had Sagitarius overhead, etc. Pretty obvious stuff really.
Now I wouldn't give even that system of astrology any credence, but it would at least make more sense to me than saying everyone born for the next 30 days is such-and-such.

Ok ..... now, I have to say that desite my non-belief in astrology, I do have one interesting fact I need to mention to be completely honest. About 3-4 years ago I began talking to a lovely woman whom I met via the net. She did not know me previously, we had no friends in common, we lived an hour apart from each other, etc - no way she could have known me or anything about me in other words.

I found out very quickly that she was a great believer in astrology, in fact she had been studying it full time for 2 years (I didn't even know that was possible) and she was going to become a "professional astrologer". She asked if I knew the precise time and place of my birth, which I did quite accurately, and so she spent the following 2-3 days "drawing my charts".

Being somewhat sceptical I was VERY careful not to tell her to much about myself, my upbringing, my likes and dislikes, etc. I have seen people "read" other people and pretend to be psychic, etc, and I was not making this easy for her.

During a phone call a day or so after she had finished (she could not see my face and read reactions, etc) I sat silently listening while she proceeded to tell me a vast and unnerving amount of things about myself: emotional traits, family relationships, employment tendencies, previous romantic endeavours, educational factors, etc - you name it, it was pretty much there.

I want to make this clear: she was 100% accurate and correct in every way with every single thing that she said, it was all pretty damn specific, and she apparently knew things that I would say even my best friends of 20+ years did not know about me. Some very deep and personal stuff, to the point of being almost embarassing to discuss.

I thought long and hard afterwards, and how she "knew" these things has always baffled me. There was one particular "behavioural trait", very VERY specific, that she could not possibly know I had, and she asked me if I had it (everything else she "told" me, not asked - I denied possessing this trait to see what she would say, and her reply was that the only other time she had ever seen "whatever" (from memory it was something like Saturn rising in conjunction with something else at a very particular time) was in her brother in law or someone, and he had this trait also. I was left with the impression that she knew I was lying to her, she was so adamant and sincere.

So ..... end result : yes I am definitely the backyard scientist type for whom science and logic rule my mind and my life, and No I do not believe in astrology ..... yet, this woman REALLY freaked me out!

:eyepop:

[xelasnave]

For goodness sake give me her contact details there is so much I need to know:D
alex

[JimmyH155]

:rofl: Everybody's talk reminds me of that classic Tony Hancock show - The Test pilot - he goes into the hangar, climbs in and presses the wrong button. Off goes the plane into orbit, when he hears a knocking noise from outside and discovers the maintenance technician who was working on the plane... "'Ello, can I come in? I was reading in the stars this morning that this is my lucky day!" To which Tony Hancock replies "If we keep going up at this rate, you'll be able to tell them they are wrong!"
Sorry, I digressed.......:rofl:

[ving]

its codwallop... IMO.

People (yes i am generalising here so obviously not everyone) need something to believe in. They cant accept that day to day life in not controlled but some huge outside force and so they create a means by which to explian why this happen the way they do... if you were born in march you are sad today cause the moon is up uranus, etc. I place astrology in much the same boat as any religion, and infact if you look at it they are not too dissimilar are they? they all look for some external force to explain how things happen.

er... i'll just lower my horned head, tuck my spiked tail between my goat-like legs and go and sit facing the corner now :P

[avandonk]

Just google 'cold reading'. This is the method all so called fortune tellers, psychics, and other con merchants use.

This can be done on the radio and was done by a scientist to try and show how easy it was. All the listeners thought he had the 'gift' even after he told them how he was doing it.

Bert

[josh]

Hey all, im back. Far out! im impressed with the posts on this one. I think all of you have made some very good points.
The argument about people needing to feel they know or are in control is a good one. But then that driving force that for so many centuries has had us tied up with relegion has been turned towards science, now science for the mass may have just become a religion substitue ie promises to have the abitliy to come up with all the answers and gives us a creation story and an end, therefore leaving us feeling all safe and secure again!.good food for thought.
You know i was just thinking and alot of people overlook the most powerful body in the heavens out there that has direct and plainly obsevable affects on humans, that body being the sun. There are just the simple things like the way it strongly affects human behaviour ie sunny/happy/play:D , Cloudy/moody/no play:sadeyes: but what im interested in is the less obvious things that may be screwing with us like sunspots, solar flares, radiation and.. what are those things that come from the sun that they measure under ground..with the big doo-dad?
Anyway i feel science and spirituality may not be able give us the fullest possible understanding of the universe. Theres nothing else is there or does quantum physics play in the middle ground?:shrug:
Maybe we need a blend of the two..nah they dont seem to get on that well:rofl:

[mickoking]

Good summary Josh :thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

I think a thread on the reasons folk need belief systems would be interesting, be it via religion, pagan or scientific few are without something..except me I believe in everything and all at once:D .
In any event Josh thanks from me for raising it I got a real kick out of the Stuffed Armstrong thing :lol: :lol: as I am sure many would have:thumbsup: .
alex

[Argonavis]

This sounds an interesting and powerful experience Steve. I am sure that it makes you wonder. But, as I pointed out previously, there are been hundreds of studies, all finding no correlations. I think one newspaper journalist had it right when they said most of us are so narcisstic that we really don't believe we have anything in common with the rest of the human race.

Truth is, we all share the same emotional template and often many of our character traits do cluster, to make us fairly predictable in our reactions and experiences. It is really surprising how similar we all are. Psychics and clairvoyants know this, and even with email and phone contact we can pick up a great deal about someone. Most of us can size people us with a 30 second contact, and we do.

We are social animals and are quite good at reading other people. It is one of our foremost evolutionary adaptions that makes us human. If you study astrology for 2 years full time what you are probably really studying is human beings and their personalities and character traits, nothing to do with the sky.

Humans are very predictable, and often psychics will throw a lot at you until they get a hit. You remember the hit because it has emotional resonance, you forget the inaccurate stuff, or interpret it differently.

When people say I am a Scorpio, it means that when I was born, the Sun was in the zodiac sign of Scorpio. The Sun spends a month in each sign. The signs are defined as successive 30 degree zones along the ecliptic, starting from the vernal equinox. Classical astrology gets more complex than this, with houses defined in relation to the horizon, and the position of the Sun, Moon and planets in the houses and signs having significant at the time of birth (why not the time of conception?), and the angles (trines, conjunctions etc) between the Sun, Moon and planets also have supposed significant bearing on our personalities and future. Much of this is sufficiently vague and meaningless to allow people to read whatever in this stuff.

My now ex-wife once somehow persuaded me to go to a tarot card reader as he was "so accurate - even predicted I had 3 kids". I went with my poker face and he got nothing right. Except that "I was coming into money". Well that happens every week, on Monday.

The problem is, some people flap without realising the information that they are giving away.

Enough flapping from me. :D

[Mr Bob]

Dunno if its astrology or not but I hunt, fish and garden by the moon. I have converted a couple of friends and they can see results based on the postion / phases of it.

[Starkler]

Some excellent posts in this thread, but IMO to have a thread on the "reasons folk need belief systems " could be dangerous ground, and potentially offensive to those who follow a religion.

[xelasnave]

True it would be difficult avoiding that in retrospect. I dont wish to offend anyone more than I do already.. unintentionally of course... and I would like to think no one here would wish that so lets drop it in the bad idea basket
alex

[Argonavis]

I don't believe that this thread in any way denigrates belief systems, just because it notes that folks need them.

It may well be offensive to some, but research is being undertaken on belief systems as a product of brain chemistry. You can't ignore this. Some of the powerful religious and spiritual experiences that I have had may well just be an illusion of my synapses.

Irrespective of this, belief systems are important in giving us moral values and a sense of community. We need to share an ethos. We have chosen a Calvanistic one that encourages economic and scientific progress within a Judeo-Christian tradition. But having let the genie out of the bottle, and knowing what is known about the way the world works - you simply can't go around saying that all beliefs are equally valid, and you can believe whatever you like. Why not you ask? Isn't it your right to believe whatever you like?

Problem with this is you are closing your mind to the scientific progress that has been made to date. You become a medieval mind in the modern world. And possibly, you styme further progress in understanding our material world, if these irrational beliefs influence public policy. Yes, this includes the ban on stem cell research.

Astrology may be daffy and harmless, but it has been shown to be dross.

[xelasnave]

Argonavis perhaps a discussion on the plethra of tv shows built around witchcraft, demons supernatural etc.. it amazes me how something cant be done here..it is so negative and counter productive.. no doubt the horrorscope set would be into this. But that really was what I was seeking to raise earlier. I would not like to offend anyone with a conventional belief in anything but I simply think this area of entertainment should be expelled from our society. But then it becomes a censorship issue, we cant tell people what should be on their TV, in their books etc but leaving this to the market is not a satisfactory result. Franky these shows offend me greatly and I wont look at them but just the promos indicate their numbers.
Negative thoughts and materials are simply bad for you and that is not a religious view it is the way it is.. How many kids become damaged by this stuff
alex

[xelasnave]

Further one would think that a system of Government, that refers to God in its formal proceedings, and overlooks such a sad condition, could be altered to removal some of the hippocracy. Something should change in the current picture.
alex

[josh]

I agree. and we should all feel free to discuss religious matters without tip- toeing around others for fear of there beliefs. If we do ,that means their beliefs are dominating what we discuss or the way we think and that aint cool at all. A question about this topic though.. i guess astronomy can be dated back a long way really, to when the first ape-man looked at the heavens and took notice. I wonder at that moment if he/she wondered if those things up there had any affect on his/her life?...therefore astrology being born very soon after astronomy.
Interesting...

[Adrian-H]

i believe that everything around us has effect towards us, even the smaller things like what you do in your everyday, so tell me the differance between being scientific and unscientific? would you know the question behind that?, science is a learning experiance and so is living, so living is a science too, and so is failure, not to know of failure, you will never gain true sucess.

[CoombellKid]

And right after that he/she thought, now how can I make some currency
outa this? so in pretty quick sucession we have Astronomy, Astrology, and
the worlds first scam?

I guess it's up to each and every indivivual as to what they want to
believe. Who really cares, someone else is always going to reckon they
have a better way and will try to ram it down ya before someone else tries
their version on you. Religion, Sects, Accults & Avon are all the same to
me, beleive what you want to believe and be happy.

regards,CS

Rob

[Argonavis]

I think it was the other way around, astronomy arose after astrology.

My belief (unscientifc and unsupported) is that astrology arose from the helical rising of Sirius that came just before the flooding of the Nile for the ancient Egyptians, similarily with the Bablonyans, the seasonal star patterns seemed to come before and predict the seasons, and astrology further developed to try and predict the positions of the "wanderers" (planets) and eclipses. It was probably easy for the ancients to see meaning in these motions.

astronomy arose from Tycho, Kepler and Galielo, Newton and Herschall and the development of astrophysics in the last 100 years.