Live view to laptop screen, recommendations?

[Cloudy]

I know this must have been discussed before but I cannot find exactly what I am looking for.

What is the best way to transfer what I see out of the eye piece live to my laptop? I am showing some students and it would be nice to see it on the laptop rather than lining up at the EP. I have no camera at all atm. My scope is a 10" newt on a EQ6 Heavy-Duty Equatorial Mount.

I know there are webcams specifically made for this now. But I'm unsure which ones are best these days. I do have a good computer web cam. Should I just modify that? I saw a youtibe video of this but its 7 years old.

Then I also realise the images may be quite washed out. Are CCD's really that much more expensive for such a purpose?

Any other advice welcome. Cheers

[mental4astro]

G'day Alan,

There are specifically made-for-astro video cameras that show live images not only of the Moon & planets (as webcams on the whole are limited to live), but also colour images of DSO's too. I have one of these, & I only use it at outreach gatherings with school, high school students, and all other novice's:

http://myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-071C

The camera can be used to show live images on a laptop or other monitor, & on a TV screen.

Next week I'll be going to a high school with a few other IIS fellows who will be taking their scopes, & I'll be bringing my video rig. Where this high school is, there is no chance of being able to see a galaxy through a scope. Yet I can with this video camera & a little 114mm scope! Last June I was able to show them M104 (the Sombrero) & Centaurus A. Next week I'll be showing them NGC 253 & the Grus Quartet. The Grus Quartet is right on the limit of what can be seen over the light polluted sky glow, but they can still be made out. The Quartet I'm particularly excited about as the average distance to these is 64million light years - the time ago when the dinosaurs were wiped out. This is real, tangible & direct contact with a time that happened long ago. Eta Carina shows its red hue, & amazing detail in the dark pillars. Omega Centauri fills the screen & its 'Eye' isn't washed out.

Your 10" & EQ6 is more than capable, if my 114 can. You will require a focal reducer to capture enough of a wide field though, as the chip in these is small & will only show a small portion of the whole field the scope is capable of showing. But you may be happy enough with the image it shows neat.

A video camera I think is the perfect tool for you. It will show live colour images, & as it can record video (via a computer) this video can be used to produce exceptional images using conventional software.

I hope this helps you.

Mental.

[Jon]

So what I can't really understand is why these video cameras offer any improvement on a one-shot-colour camera? Hook up a DSLR to the telescope, take a 30 second sub at ISO 3200 and you'll see plenty, "live" on the screen.

Except for occultations, Jovian satellite transits etc., I don't see the value add in the "live" aspect of the dedicated video cameras.

I think I missing something obvious.

[mental4astro]

There's no wrong or right. There's no perfect camera or scope. For me, the GSTAR great as it is tiny, weighs bugger all, & this allows me to hook it up to a focuser that wouldn't be able to deal with the weight of the DSLR. I'm not interested in imaging, & a camera like this allows me to set up & it works. It's fine for me. I can't speak for a DSLR in this case, other than saying it is hardware that doesn't suit my requirements. I don't know enough about imaging to reply in a technical sense, but I do know it is much more complicated than I care for.

But that's me.

[Jon]

Ah - that's a good answer Alex. I'm primarily an imager, as my eyes are astigmatic and my night vision is buggered, so I prefer to see stuff live on the screen. But I can see the advantage of "plug and play" in the field.

[Blue Skies]

Ditch the webcam and go for a made-to-purpose video camera. The Gstars from MyAstroShop are my recommendation as well for an entry level camera. There are several options there, I can't comment on the colour version but the you wont loose much by getting of the B&W versions.

You will probably also need a framegrabber dongle, like the one in the picture I've attached (other people might give it other names) to get the image from the camera onto a computer. I got that one from Jaycar.

If you get a Gstar the Gstar capture program works a treat to display it on screen and you can control the settings from within there remotely if you get the extra cable for it. Saves you mucking around the back of the camera with the buttons and shaking everything up.

As to the result of using one - well, I've always thought its a great idea. You can point out what's on the screen and then hopefully people have a better idea of what they are looking at and a greater appreciation of what they are seeing. In reality I've got the mixed response; some people love it, others are like Jon and can't see the point and think its a pain. Perhaps what I'm trying to say is don't expect that it will fix everything and be the bees knees.

But these cameras are very versatile and once you have it you can probably find several uses for it. They can be used to image or be used to create a still image as well, not just for video.

There are other brands out that are more or less the same thing, so don't be afraid to go for another if looks better to you. Astro-video is still a rapidly developing field and from what I've seen no one product stand out above others yet. Just look for something that has an integrating or stacking ability and you should be right. I know they are more expensive than a webcam but they are also cheaper and easier to use than a CCD.

[Cloudy]

Alex, Jacquie, thanks for that detailed responses. By reviews, the GSTAR seems to be everything I need. I guess I will see how it looks without the focal reducer first.

Its seems this GSTAR is only sold at the AstroShop? The price is obviously something I have to think about. Its nearly as much as my scope and mount.

I can't find any ccd which beats this price yet. If anyone has any other recommendations, fire away!

[mental4astro]

Alan, you can place an ad in the WANTED classifieds asking for one.

This camera isn't limited to just telescopes. Using a C-mount coupling thread, you can use standard C-mount CCTV lenses for wide field images. You can also get C-mount to other camera lens fittings, such as Cannon & others, so you can use your existing camera lenses for wide field. I've got several old screw mount lenses & found a screw mount to C-mount adapter on eBay, & my once redundant lenses now have a new use. A lens/camera arrangement like this with show an extraordinary amount of detail even in a light polluted sky.

[Cloudy]

Alex, when streaming live, what is the image quality like between viewing through the eyepiece compared to viewing on the laptop screen?

[Imagerman]

Yes whats the quality of the streaming like?

[mental4astro]

As I've only been using the camera on a monitor, and not on a computer, and as a result not capturing images, the best way I can describe the live steaming quality is with a link to the Cloudy Nights video image gallery. The gallery tries to limit uploaded pictures to that of the live streaming. No post processing of any kind because that takes away from what the live video is all about. The CN link below is to page No. 101 of the gallery. This shows the most recent lot of uploaded images, and shows what is possible to achieve with today's current technology:

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2050552/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/101/vc/1

There is Ken James down in Snake Valley, Victoria, who is one of video's best exponents. Here's a link to some of his work on CN, all of which are live stream images. This is probably the best link as it shows targets that we in the Southern Sky can best relate to:

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=VAA&Number=6057527&Forum=f100&Words=omega%20centauri&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=6055737&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post6057527

The image below is Ken's shot of Omega Centauri. It is very much like it appears on my screen.

[Cloudy]

Thanks Alex.

I'm sold! :D

[Camelopardalis]

Me too :D

MCX mucho $$$ though :sadeyes:

[mental4astro]

I can bring my GSTAR camera to the Airfield this Saturday & a couple of lenses. Will need to use someone's scope though as I won't be bringing a tracking scope. Like me to Dunk?

[mental4astro]

Here's a youtube clip produced by Ken James that shows just what "live video" is all about. The video is a tour, so it shows the trails of the stars as the scope slews, and the refresh period as the trails disappear and the final object is in sight. With video, once the integration period has been selected, the camera is set at that exposure time, so the image is just dependant on the refresh period, usually every five seconds. The link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHiCNmYdkaE

[Camelopardalis]

That'd be brilliant Alex, any time up there works for me! I'll always have a tracking scope with me, I'd just have to remember to bring the reducer!

What do you use to view the image?

[Steffen]

You can use my 6" Mak as well if you like. Does it require any adapters or does it go straight into a 2" focuser?

Cheers
Steffen.

[mental4astro]

I keep the reducer with the camera. It fits into a 1.25" focuser/holder. I use my kids little portable DVD player as the monitor.

[MortonH]

Don't let me look, I'll just want one. Then I'll need a tracking mount...

[Camelopardalis]

It could be a very dangerous experiment :P

If the weather is going to be good this weekend, I'll be bringing Moby (the big white scope), if not the 8 and the travel scope, which I can get down to about 340mm FL? :confused2:

[5ash]

I spent several years imaging with a G star and can verify that the on screen almost live images are great, showing lots of detail. I don't understand one of the previous comments that a dSLR on 30 sec exposure can give you "live view " that's just what it's called not what it is, it's an after image . At least a video ccd camera like the G star will give you virtually live view with 2.5 sec frame rates. The Samsung scb 4000 has the same size sensor as the G star and is. About 10 x more sensitive. However it has a more complicated OSD menu ,but on the other hand is about $150 cheaper than the g star and is a colour ccd camera .needs the IR filter removing , but Ken has posted a video on u tube that shows you how,not very hard to do.
Philip

[Regulus]

Alan,

An IIS friend bought a Swann web cam from Harvey Norman.
Shaped like an eye-piece but a little narrower, with a resolution of 1280x800.
We cut the base out of an old film canister , since they will fit a 1.25 ep holder.
Plug it into a usb port and use any web cam software. Most will let you adjust frame rate, contrast, gain and colour etc.
Since this is not for pro imaging it was perfect for displaying on a monitor for general viewing.
Cost $39 + and old film canister.

Hope this helps

[5ash]

Wouldn't be much good for deep sky objects but would be ok for the moon and brighter planets.
Philip

[Cloudy]

Thanks for the advice! :thumbsup:

Still looking at getting a GStar but just saving up some money for it. The film canister method may do for the time being.

[INeedMySpace]

Is there anyone in Brisbane with a samsung scb-4000 setup I could view?

[2stroke]

The scb-2000 can be had for $100 on ebay alot of the time, I would jump on the cn forums where there a whole section dedicated to video astronomy and have a look. Lol have a snb-7000 here atm i'am trying to get a long exposure mod onto, 1080p :), just hoping i can do something firmware wise ;)

[5ash]

Haven't heard anything about this camera for Astro work? The 2000 & 4000 are CCD cameras this one is CMOS perhaps a bit noisier at higher senseups . It's also got a 1/2.8" ( 1/3 ") sensor compared to the 4000 , much harder to find objects using a 1/3" sensor than a 1/2" sensor .
Regards philip
Ps I could post some pics from a 4000 if your interested.

[2stroke]

Haven't had time to tinker with it yet, at worst I'am using it with a fish eye for a all sky cam. Had this given to me by a friend and its a dam expensive camera lol, retail with the lens and electronic focuser its around $800 worth. At worst ill sell off and get a snb-4000, just has some dam fine features that would make it great for the job. Really it's overkill for a all sky cam though i simply plug it into a wifi point and can broadcast over the network, no cables or pc needed. The scb-2000 and scb-4000 are proven and are unreal i just got this for free and wanted to try and tinker.

[Spaced-out]

Hi, Sorry to hijack the thread but am currently looking into this camera as something for Lunar and possible brighter planets. I'd be very keen to know your thoughts on it if possible? I have an SBC2000, Mallincam Xtreme and two others cams with the same spec as the SBC 2000 but now I'm looking into HD though not for DSOs. I occasionally broadcast on Night Skies Network and I'm looking for something that may improve the image. The SNB 7000 looks like a possibility.

Many thanks

Karl