An ATC will be in deep Doodoo!!

[Exfso]

Nearly had a big one in our neck of the woods, thank god for TCAS

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/south-australia/qantas-pilots-praised-for-averting-midair-crash-over-adelaide-following-airtraffic-control-blunder/story-fnii5yv4-1226724017862?utm_source=News&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial&net_sub_uid=17052667

[BlackWidow]

TCAS is the best thing ever introduced to Aviation. If two aircraft get close it advises the pilots. However if they get really close and impact is curtain the system will not allow for pilot judgement and takes over. Talks to the other aircraft and makes opp control effects...

I don't have TCAS in my light plane, but sure do have a mode c transponder so that should I ever get it wrong I won't be a bug on the screen of some Jumbo Jet.. I so have a cockpit cam and that would make a great Youtube clip.... Anyway was a bit of a worry. I bet the pilot had eyes like in the Mad Max movie :eyepop:

[GrahamL]

I worked with somone many years back who went through the whole selection process to be an ATC, very smart guy who had almost a couple of science degrees under his belt, the last part was a long interview with multiple assesors firing endless questions , he told me he paused once only in the process, no call back .

[acropolite]

At the end of the day, AT controllers are only human and prone to making mistakes. When I flew I had 2 incidents where ATC gave me clearances to turn in to oncoming traffic, both times in the circuit area. The first time the ATC tried to make it look as though it was my error, but my instructor was on the ground listening and confirmed the controllers error. The second time I was cleared for takeoff, make right turn, I turned at the correct height only to see another aircraft whizz across my path. No comment at all from ATC that time, I don't think he was even aware of the incoming traffic....

[Hans Tucker]

Media is blowing this all out of proportion. As has already been mentioned the aircraft had Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) which is designed exactly for incidents such as these. Similar incident happened over Japan with two 747's over 600 POB...but in this incident one pilot chose to ignore TCAS and go on the controllers instruction. Apparently western pilots are instructed to obey TCAS instructions over the ATC controllers but in Europe, particularly Russian pilots continue to override TCAS and follow controllers instruction which was the findings in the mid-air collision over Germany in 2002.

[Exfso]

Graham, I did the ATC and Flight Service aptituted tests in 1969 and they were identical, even the interviews were the same. Hence my tag (Exfso)!! I got interviewed and ended up getting into a heated discussion with a new psych who had an axe to grind and she did not accept my reason for wanting to join ATC from my then job as an electrician. I was basically told to apply for Flight Service, which I did and got selected. As I said the testing was identical as was the psych stuff. (I had a different psych for the FS interview) The main difference between ATC and Flight service, apart from the pay scale is that ATC positively provide a traffic separation service in Controlled airspace, where Flight Service provided a traffic advisory service Outside controlled airspace. We both provided Search and Rescue, Pilot briefing and weather and Notam service. The theory courses were almost identical in fact from memory we both were trained in Melbourne in the same building. The training for both jobs is very intense as would be expected, but in the end we are only human and subject to making errors, that is what happened in this instance I would say, a simple brain fade, with potentially catastrophic results, saved by technology. I can say I had times when for one reason or another I simply missed traffic on aircraft and had them get too close together, but I did not have to provide a separation service, only advisory where pilots made their own decisions on the course to take to avoid collision. ATC have to provide separation, end of story.
Incidentally Flight Service no longer exist perse and pilots outside the controlled airspace corridors are basically left to separate themselves, thanks to Dick Smith trying to convert Australian Aviation to a model used in the USA. Since I left FS in 2000, I have basically lost touch, obviously and from what I have been told by friends who transitioned into ATC from Flight Service, it has become a real poofight!! with a much bigger workload being placed on pilots, particularly when flying to regional areas that don't have air traffic control. I suppose that is the price of progress!!!:D

[rcheshire]

I'm an ex FSO too, going back 25+ years. Small world. How things have changed. Flying since then, here and overseas.

TCAS has seen a number of revisions, it's quite sophisticated these days, yet dependent on crew reaction times for initiating response to a Resolution Advisory and subsequent modifications to the original TCAS instruction. Great gear.

One should always follow TCAS commands (with rare self-evident exceptions). It was always intended to be that way.

[Exfso]

Hi Rowland, where did you do your postings? I copped, Sydney, Adelaide, Darwin, Katherine. Did my course in July of 1970.:D

[LewisM]

I too did the ATC testing. Now there was an experience! Made it to the 2nd round, but I was offered a flying job in the meantime, and took that.

My cousin is still an FSO (Raelene). It was so weird with the new system to be flying in Perth and talking to her in Brisbane.

[rcheshire]

Hi Peter, I started in 83 and did 3 years in Melbourne. Trained in Melbourne and Mildura. I left shortly after completing my air/ground training when Kendell were employing Metro FOs. The TAATS system was being mooted at that time, along with discussions about centralising FS functions to ML and BN.

I enjoyed it, but wanted to fly more. These days I work for the regulator...

The magic of modern communications, Lewis. How things have changed.

[LewisM]

Indeed how things have changed.

One fun memory for me was having fun in a C172 outside Perth CTA. There was a STRONG headwind, and decided it was time to show the student how to emulate a helicopter in a fixed wing aircraft. GPS said 1 knot, so technically not QUITE hovering - held it there for about 2 minutes, power against the stall etc. Anyway, Perth gets on the horn and ask for an ops normal, as they hadn't seen our blip move for a while (even though OCTA). I responded with an affirmative, demonstrating to student :)

[rcheshire]

The years spent instructing were varied, fun and rewarding. Enjoyed it very much.

[Exfso]

The Flight Service function in Brisbane is more of a communication officer type role now I believe, very little responsibility as far as I know there are no air-ground jobs for this role, but things may have changed.

[rcheshire]

I haven't stayed in touch Peter. All quite different from the old days, I imagine.

[The_bluester]

I have lost track, has it actually been published what the seperation ended up going down to? I began ignoring it fairly quickly as most of what I was reading was decending into the sensational.

You could not have paid me enough to be an ATC. I am an ex RAAF tech and worked in the ATC environment for most of a decade, even less than busy places like East Sale it could suddenly get very busy. My most vivid memory was actually from Williamtown where my folks had come out so I got the OK to give them a tour of the tower, all good until we were just about to leave and it was suddenly just sleeting aircraft for about 15 minutes unexpectedly, with pans called and aircraft circling over the Pacific, others being diverted to Sydney, then when it settled down, decisions made on if they had sufficient fuel to come back again, deciding on priorities to get them on the ground based on fuel reserves etc. We were suddenly in a "Stand still and keep quiet" situation for the duration as the design of the tower meant that we had to walk in front of the ATC's and obstruct their view to leave. Not the only time while I was there there were suddenly aircraft hanging from every twig like Galahs waiting for their shot at the tarmac.

TCAS sure beats the pants off the "It is a big sky" theory of seperation!

[Exfso]

Yep TCAS is damn good, but it is not on all aircraft, I believe it has to be installed and it would be quite expensive I would reckon. I may be wrong here.:question:

[Exfso]

Could have done with that when I was in Katherine in 1974 when Tracy blew Darwin to bits, I opened up the FSU Xmas morning to absolute chaos. There were aircraft circling the town trying to get communications as we were the international alternate for Darwin. Normally when we shut down at night Darwin took over our responsibilities, but as you know they did not exist any more and there was only Katherine and Gove that opened up on Xmas day. Gove helped a little, but they had less staff than we did and their communications for some reason were very poor. There were only 3 of us on that station and I was on my own for the first couple of hours. Basically we assumed responsibility for all of the Darwin airspace. I know on the 1st day we took from memory 256 flight plans on HF for aircraft departing and going into Darwin, that does not include the ones we took via face to face briefing and over VHF and telephones. Traffic information was a nightmare, we had anything from C172 to B747 screaming for traffic and weather on both VHF and HF, in a helluva lot of cases we had aircraft flying without any details being received at all, they just popped up, you can imagine what that was like. Also all the C130 fleet was deployed to help in the evacuation. I had no sleep for 72 hrs, I dont think any of us did until we got people up from down south to help us out.
Certainly was not helped being in the wet season either as we used to get all our weather information from Darwin Met, they were out of action as well, so we did the best we could by other means, also we had to take half hourly obs as well to add to the workload. I remember our OIC saying to Head office. "we have thrown away the book", that became a famous quote for some time...From memory we regularly had over 50 active aircraft it peaked at close to the 100 mark I think, imagine the radio chaos with that many people trying to talk and get traffic, pass flight plans, traffic and weather information, no to mention Notam information. How no one came together during that period amazes me, brilliant stuff by the pilots for sure, see and be seen was the way to go....:eyepop:

[rcheshire]

That was some era Peter. Face-to-face briefings!

See and be seen is not adequate in today's airspace.

[LewisM]

You probably spoke to my father that day :) My Dad was Northern Territory Aerial Medical Service (TAA), flying the DH Dove ex-Alice. He was apparently the first aircraft into Darwin after Tracy.

Tracy is responsible for me having no birth certificate - gone with the wind, literally. I now have only an NT extract, dated WELL after my actual birth in '73.

When I started flying, still had briefing offices and FTF briefings. My last ever FTF briefing was a simple gallivant from ABRK (now YBRK) to Keppel (GKL) for a weekend of debauchery :eyepop:

[Exfso]

Definitely a lost era Lewis, everything now so impersonal. So much for service hey:screwy: I reckon I can remember that aircraft, I know the Connellan airways aircraft that was one of the first said to us via HF that it looked like an Atomic Bomb had detonated over Darwin, he was sobbing as his family I think were down there. They parked their aircraft at Tindal on Xmas Eve as they knew a big blow might stir up Darwin. They had to get permission before they were allowed to fly to Darwin, it was utter bedlam I can tell you. The remnants of Tracy passed pretty well over Katherine that morning.
I suppose we are digressing from the content of the original thread here, but I started it, so I reckon a bit of variation is ok.

[rcheshire]

The good old DH Dove. Lots of reminiscing going on their guys. Funny how some days in aviation provide special moments - unique really. Makes me realise how much I like the industry, its characters and the out of the ordinary experience it offers up from time-to-time.

[LewisM]

I just texted him to ask what the rego was on the Dove he was flying.

Grew up with some GREAT stories from the old man. Besides doing the NTAMS, he was also a DC3 FO for TAA Sunbird Services up in PNG (Moresby, Rabaul and Lae).

Loved those years... every flight I ever went on was up in the jump seat, right from being knee high (first flight for me was a Connellan Queen Air to Mt Isa at a few days old, followed by an Ansett 727-100). Grew up in the DC9 and 727 office - love the Diesel the most. Then came the Friendship, the Jetsream J31 (he did one of the delivery flights from Scotland), A300 (yeah, not my cup of tea) and the 737, before he knicked off to Singapore and was a Lear Jet instructor then a 777 Check and Training Captain for the last 20 years. Retired with the golden handshake, and now gone back to Jetstar NZ on the 320 :) If he stops flying, he'll be one of these ones that'll die from boredom and accumulated stress relief (like a lot of them do).

I miss flying... but it wasn't me JOB wise. Flying for fun, FANTASTIC, but not routine day in day out sectors. ICK! Give me a Tiger Moth and 5000' of sky and I am happy. :)

[LewisM]

Dove was VH-DHD. HE told me he WASN'T the first - Connellans were in first, and Ray Vuillerman in another Dove was before him.

[atkinsonr]

Fascinating stories guys. Maybe we should start an aviation sub-forum :thumbsup:

[Exfso]

Yep, I was pretty sure it was Connelans as we had to get permission for him to fly in, he actually came into the briefing office in Katherine from memory. Mind you it was all pretty much a blur I can tell you. I actually flew in with a mate of mine on a SAATAS C310 from memory a couple of days after things had calmed down a tad, and the scene was unbelievable. I remember what Connelans were called them days as all their aircraft were a horrible yellow, rather politically incorrect, The Canary Colored C..n carriers. As they serviced all the outlying settlements etc.

Lewis, ask your Dad if he knew George Washington, he was a legend in the NT, if it had wings he could fly it, I remember he had a bird stike flying the Connair DC3 into Katherine right on short final, this kite hawk decided it wanted to have a closer look through his windscreen and splatted itself all over the place, he did a greaser of a landing despite the hazard. Then we had to go out and collect the birds remains and send them down to Air Safety, what a crock that was. Reckon I should write a book.

[LewisM]

Couldn't find the Dove photos that I had. Have to ask Dad for some scans. One shows -DHD at zot feet over the APRON at Alice :)

[Exfso]

Nothing like a good old fashioned beat up of the 'drome;)

[LewisM]

Found these though. One of me and Dad when we were actually working for the same company :) (B777 office)

Old Man is the Australian Airlines J31 skipper of course, not that puncy King Air ;)

[Exfso]

Excellent shots something to cherish for sure.