DMK21AF04 arrived!

[iceman]

My wife called me at work this arvo and said the postman dropped off a card to say "pick up a parcel from the postoffice".

So I left work and got to the post office 5 minutes before they closed! :)

I picked up my DMK21AF04 and Belkin 6-port 6-pin powered hub that I ordered on Thursday last week! 2 parcels at once! Yay!

So, my laptop doesn't have a firewire port, but I ordered a Firewire PCMCIA card the other week, so I already had that.

Put that in the laptop, plug that into the hub. Plug the camera into the hub. The hub has 240v power. All looks good so far.

Windows doesn't recognise the device, so I install the IC Capture software and drivers, all good! All working so far.

I can capture at 15fps no problems, using the Y800 codec. The capture locks up when I try and use 30fps. :( I'm not sure what the problem is yet. It could in part be my laptop - it's an old Dell Latitude D600 with 512M RAM and a 1.6Ghz processor. It might not be fast enough to capture at 30fps.

Will need to experiment with different codecs and other settings, and try it in the desktop computer (which has a faster CPU) to see what makes the difference.

In any case, 15fps is working fine, which will get me up and running for now.

Am able to load the avi's into registax by loading a fire-i driver (thanks rumples for the tip). But i'll be splitting into bmp's anyway so it'll be fine.

Too tired to go outside with it tonight - will hope for clear skies tomorrow and give it first light in mono mode - no colour filters yet. I do have the filter wheel already, so I can practise with the adapters, turning the wheel etc, and see how my scope reacts to the extra weight that the setup introduces, and bumping from turning the wheel.

Will post some photos tomorrow night.

[Striker]

Wahoo a new toy.

Mike these camera's have been recalled due to health and safety reasons...lol

Enjoy....looking forward to the results

[asimov]

Looking forward to hearing more. Thats a bummer about 30 FPS but I know you'll work that one out! :)

[Lester]

Great news Mike,

Looking forward to your first capture.

[[1ponders]]

Look forward to first light Mike. Congrats. Shame about the clouds though :P

[davidpretorius]

fantastic news, apart from 30 fps!

[iceman]

Thanks guys.

Will continue to work on the 30fps problem - it could just be that my laptop is not fast enough. Will try it on the desktop tonight to see if that makes a difference.

With the moon rising in the next week it'll give me a chance to try it in mono mode anyway.

Lester, have you pointed yours in anger at the sky yet?

[gbeal]

Hi Mike,
great news, I am sure it will take your images from the fabulous level they currently are to a whole new level.
Me? I am frustrated and wondering if it is really me.
I have no problems getting 30fps, and the CFW is a brezze. The processing stages after make me wonder if I may just shelve it and return to the ToUcam. Want a DMK Ponders??

[iceman]

Don't do it Gary! It will be worth it once you get a processing routine down pat.

Upload or send over an avi and let me see! You may find it's worth it.

[Robert_T]

Good one Mike, though if it challenges your Dell with 512Meg RAM and 1.6Ghz processor I'll be stuffed with my 1.2Ghz and 256Meg RAM Compaq:sadeyes: ... be interested to hear more of the tortuous post-processing that Gary refers too. Why would it be different to the toucam?

[gbeal]

Robert,
I am a wouse basically. With the ToUcam I process simply with Registax only. It is the same as when I first started, and is a short once only process.
Mike (and others) split the ToUcam AVI's into BMP's, and process the three colours separately.
With the DMK you are shooting three AVI's (R&G&B) and need to process them and re-combine them in the processing.
It isn't as laborious as I make it sound, witness many that are doing it. Whether it is worth it to me is another matter.
I did foresee a computer hangup though, and I had a decent laptop. I took the opportunity to replace mine with a powerful desktop, which I wheel out to the observing site. It has proved to be the saviour so far.

[gbeal]

Mike,
let me get a decent night of seeing first huh? The two or three nights so far have been such that a 150x look has shown very little detail through the eyepiece, which is normally my "pack it in" benchmark. If this southerly ever abates we "may" get some better (yeah right) seeing. Then I will send you an RGB.
Gary

[Robert_T]

Thanks Gary, Ok yeh, I know how that feels. I can do the separate processing etc, but much prefer the one touch registax approach myself. Let me know if you want to giev your DMK away:D

[asimov]

Hi Gary! Thought I'd better drop in & say g'day mate!:D

I'm with you on the 'is it worth it to me' on all this extra proccessing etc. I'm happy with the 900nc results I'm getting, & if I ever get good seeing I think I'll be more than satisfied. I'm just waiting to see what Lesters colour version can do first before I come to any conclusions upgrade wise. One things for certain, I won't be going the mono route. :)

[gbeal]

Don't let me put you all off, it is my lazy streak coming out.
The trouble is that when I started this caper with Mars in 2003 it was OK to get an OK image. Nothing flash, just OK.
But lately, the bar has been raised that much that I get hypoxic thinking about it. The ToUcam is THE best for average to great results. We all just want that little extra edge.
I too would be interested in what the colour version is capable of. I still believe the mono route it the way, but it is a lot of extra effort for a little extra result.
Now, on another note, the first night out I tried Jupiter at 30fps, and while the AVI's were soft with the seeing, I also tried the other end.
This is Omega Cent (sorry Mike not M22). I tried it with the scope that was on the mount (for Jupiter) the 10", but at 1250mm the image was a bit crowded. I slipped Robby's new W/O 80mm scope on, and shot this. Perhaps 5 - 10 second exposure, with the gain and brightness near the max.
Not flash, but interesting.
Gary

[Astroman]

NOT FLASH? thats an awesome shot from a webcam. the uncrowding of the central area makes it awesome, not overexposed...... I like it.

[Robert_T]

Mike - is the filetr wheel and filters on the way yet. I'm in a hurry to spend your money:D

[iceman]

I have the filter wheel already, just no filters to put it in yet.

[davidpretorius]

my impression re colour vs mono cameras:

I believe that the mono will outperform the colour only at big image scales ie at f39 and then the 1.5x resamples ie Chris Go and Damian Peach.

Unless your seeing and scope can give you that size once a month, then it will probably be a waste of money!

Maurice with his c14 / toucam and Lester with his Meade 14” / neximage are proving what can be done with toucam technology and framerates

The other side of it is that you can control focus / settings for each colour with a mono, BUT again the seeing has to be really great to even notice the small difference this would make.

So if you are aiming to image with the very best of them, and you are prepared to travel to places of great seeing then making sure you have the best equipment at the time to make that 5% difference is important!

If I lived in canberra, SA, melbourne, hobart and wanted to image, then i honestly believe that the mono camera would not be used to it full capacity due to conditions outside your control.

As an example, nearly every jupiter image posted on IIS these last two months is way better than anything Damian Peach has been able to produce due to a 24 degree latitude and horrible seeing in England. This is with a near perfect collimated C14, new lumenera skynx mono camera

But we all know what he produces when he goes to Barbados or other times of great seeing!!!

[gbeal]

Arggghhhhh Davo,
how am I going to sell this now???
I reckon you are right with your assessment, but like most we are all trying to gain that edge, however small and difficult it is.
If anything the camera and filter wheel is as easy or easier to use than the ToUcam. The IC Capture software is very good. Plus, it serves as a useful DSO camera.
What I really need is a processing guru like Mike to outsource my headaches.

[asimov]

Some valid points Dave :) But then we have the other side of the coin: To DO get the DMK for its potential to capture at 60 FPS uncompressed precisely because one does live in an area where good seeing is few & far between!

To my way of looking at that, you get to stack more crap 3/10 frames, big deal! I can't see any advantage it that really.

[iceman]

I think Dave's points were more about mono vs colour..

The uncompressed high frame rates are still a reason why the colour DMK would be better than the colour ToUcam. If the seeing is only 3/10, with uncompressed high frame rates, you've got a much better chance of capturing frames in moments of good seeing - even if the air is generally unsteady that night.

If you're capturing 3 times more frames in the same period of time, chances are you'll get more chance of capturnig enough sharp frames to stack.

The other advantage is noise - from Chris Go's reports, the DMK's have far less noise than the ToUcam, and he regularly captures at 80% gain and ABOVE. Try doing that with the ToUcam and see how grainy it turns out.

[davidpretorius]

Not to worry, I will be needing one in the next 6 months ie mono and then work on a motorized filter wheel!

[Robert_T]

don't forget Brisbane in Winter:P You're making sense DP, but it's expensive sense that might lead me to investing in a Meade 14in rather than a Lumenera....:whistle:

[asimov]

I'm in total agreement there, plus within range budget-wise for someone like me...the only problem being....the laptop. If I had to get a bigger/better/faster laptop than the one I just bought :lol: I'm out of the race again. :doh: :)

Can't wait to see what you get with your mono DMK & looking forward to Lester getting his colour version up & running before this apparition of Jupiter is over.

[iceman]

In other news, Chris Go and Oldfield (on CN) both said that they had problems capturing at 30fps as well, and they got a new version of the software (drivers + IC Capture) sent to them which fixed the problem for them.

I've sent TIS an email and hopefully that will fix it for me too.

[Robert_T]

Mike - The Phillips 900nc might have a similar advantage, I routinely capture at 80% gain with it (necessary is you're going 1/33rd sec) and occasionally higher to 90-100% (for 1/33rd sec with 4x powermate) without too much grain

[asimov]

Yep. 85% is about right in some cases for me.

[iceman]

Well the DMK has had first light! I used an 1.25" adapter to screw into the DMK, which slotted into the 5x powermate.

Still only using 15fps at this stage - new version of IC Capture helped a bit, but I need some more experimenting cause i'm still locking up occassionally at 30fps.

Captured about 6 or so avi's. The fast frame rate makes every wobble more noticeable. Even just bumping the DMK cable makes the image wobble. Although my scope and platform is quite unsteady at the moment and needs more dampening time than i'd like.

Tried hooking up the ATik manual filter wheel, but I think i'm missing an adapter or two that I need. So that extra weight and wobble will have to wait for another time. Need to speak to Steven Mogg and find out what I need.

Anyway, will process the avi's overnight and tomorrow morning and post the results. I took some ToUcam images at the same time, so some comparison will be able to be done. Should be interesting!

[iceman]

Oh one thing I noticed is the smaller image scale of the DMK, when compared to the ToUcam. Due to it's larger chip or larger pixel size or something I guess.

By the time the filter wheel is added on, it will add some extra focal length so it will probably come out about the same.

[davidpretorius]

this is very exciting ice, can't wait.

I noticed Birds are also smaller than a normal toucam. Techically I spose you can image bigger with more focal length for the same pixel size.

Steve made me up some t-thread to 1.25" and t-thread to 2" adapters, give me a hoy if you need to look to see if they fit and i can airbag to you

[Dennis]

Hi Mike

I just checked the DMK specs at http://www.1394imaging.com/en/products/cameras/firewire_mono/dmk21af04/specification/ and the pixel size is H: 5.6 µm, V: 5.6 µm and the resolution H: 640, V: 480 making it the same as the ToUcam? Weird? Must be some other factor at play here?

Cheers

Dennis

[asimov]

Interesting. I used to get my jollies by previewing jupiter in extremely bad seeing (the big undulations) @ 25 FPS. Boy, talk about high speed oscilations! Funny to watch.. I'll shut up now :)

Looking forward to seeing what you got!! :D

[iceman]

Oh one other thing, my DMK already has dust donuts :( Need to clean them tonight before another imaging session.

Will post first light sometime this morning, chugging through registax now. I've passed the ToUcam versions through a quick registax run and the seeing looked ok, maybe 5.5/10.

[Robert_T]

On the image scale thing, as Dennis notes the pixel size is the same (in fact it should be the same chip as used in Toucam's and mono versions of this like the ATIK etc. Only thing I can think off is differences in the camera body and adapator that end up placing the chip of the Toucam further away than in the DMK?

The Lumenera I'm considering has 7.4 micron pixels which will make image scale 30% smaller. I wonder does this mean that to get the same image scale the seeing will be even more critical?:shrug:

[Lester]

Hi Robert,

If the chip was further away the focus would have to be altered accordingly, (I would think).

[davidpretorius]

where is bird when we need him?

i am sure he said it is smaller with his dragonfly.

Also what makes the toucam act as a 6mm eyepiece??? distance to chip??? the size of the opening???? i have never found out!

[Robert_T]

Lester - yes it would I expect. What I'm getting at is that the distance of the chip from the powermate will determine the amplification of the powermate. It acts as a pseudo extension.

cheers,

[Lester]

The chip must always be at focus point. Cannot move it further away to make larger image if not at that point.

[Lester]

Okay! With ya now.

[Robert_T]

Don't know Dav, though I expect it's a combination of pixel size and distance of the chip from the powermate. The 6mm analogy may only be appropriate for when the cam is inserted straight into the focusser or powermate without any extension.

[iceman]

First light results here:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=11206