MORAVIAN G2-8300ccd WITH EXTERNAL FILTER WHEEL OR QSI 683WS- 8 ccd

[h0ughy]

Ok I know I shouldn’t do it but I can see I have to - my cooled 40D’s are too expensive to repair – so now might be the time to bite the bullet.

Which one do I get?

The QSI is $5299 plus filters

The Moravian is $2999 with a 5 x 2” filter wheel internal plus filters

now the other question was can i get away with 1.25" filters or do i have to get 2" filters when imaging wiht this chip?

Scopes that this will be used on are an ed80, 127ED, C11, C8 and a meade 14" ACF, and maybe a canon lens or two


given the location at home i need to move this way?

[PRejto]

I own the G2-8300 with internal filters. It is a fine camera. My only reservation is the state of current drivers. It has native drivers for AstroArt and MaxIm, but not TheSkyX. ASCOM works erratically with TSX but fine in other programs. Moravian promises an X2 driver for TSX but it has been "delayed." If you don't need TSX support than I think it's an excellent choice with very good cooling.

BTW, you need 31mm unmounted filters, not 1.25" in this camera. At least this was the recommendation. You might get away with 1.25" but I wouldn't want to test this. 31 mm unmounted are available from Astronomik and Astrodon and probably some others.

Feel free to contact me if you need some other help.

Peter

[h0ughy]

any pics of the camera and filters Peter? would the 1.25 cause vignetting?

i see there are now external filter wheels for these cameras? no not using the TSX but would be ASCOMming it with either nebulousity or something else?

[Bart]

What about a QHY9. Same chip, good ASCOM drivers, dual stage cooling. Worth considering.

[h0ughy]

so whats its reliability like?

[allan gould]

David
I have the QSI583wsg and 1 1/4" Astronomic filters. Never missed a beat.
Allan

[peter_4059]

Dave,

I have the QSI683ws8 and 1 1/4" LRGB & NB Astronomic filters loaded in the 8 position wheel.

It works, easily hits -20 all year round and doesn't dew up. Best money I've spent on Astrophotography. Wondering if I should have spent a bit more to get the oag version upfront however I suspect I could replace the front cover if I wanted to go that way. Troy converted his 583ws5 to a 583ws8 without too much fuss.

Peter

[alocky]

+1 on the QSI 683 wsg-8 with astrnomik lrgbhas2o3 - well chuffed, if only the sky would clear. -20 all year, lightest weight, and beautifully integrated package. Worked straight out of the box.
Cheers,
Andrew.

[PRejto]

I can't comment on the 1.25" filters. They may be fine but I'm using 31mm unmounted with no issue.

This camera also has dual stage cooling and I also get -20 all year without any problem.

What pictures are you looking for? Pictures using the camera or pictures of the camera? Some of my photos are here: http://www.pbase.com/prejto Please just keep in mind that I'm pretty new to imaging and I'm imaging with quite a bit of light pollution!

Peter

[Bart]

I've had it for a couple of years and it has been very good. Both camera and filter wheel have been ultra reliable. I don't have any web images, but there is some fantastic QHY9 images getting around, including a couple of APODs.

Check out some of this guys work!

http://www.astroanarchy.blogspot.com.au/

Anyway, you will buy what you want in the end. I just think you need to widen your search a bit.

[DavidTrap]

Get the WSG - you know you want it!

DT

[h0ughy]

thanks for the replies so far. its hard to put together a comparison, price, value, build, weight, overall costs, software, support, reliability, filters......

[Tandum]

Dave, getting narrow band filters into the wheel as well as LRGB is a real bonus. I had 7x36mm filters in my last starlight wheel on a qhy9 and it was great, but I think the QSI683 cameras can put the filters close enough to the sensor to do 7 or 8 x 1.25" filters. I believe they also have dual stage cooling so you can run the same temps all year round and you can get an OAG built in. I'd be going that way for an 8300 camera.

[h0ughy]

thanks Robin,

what would be the best way to match the camera to the scope if i was thinking about different camera? i own these scopes and would like a universal tool so to speak:

ed80, 127ED, C11, C8 and a meade 14" ACF

[Paul Haese]

You get what you pay for David. I have been using QSI gear for as long as they have been released. Great camera's low noise. Not as good as say the more expensive cameras, but solid and dependable. I don't know about the other camera, but you have seen my images taken with it. The extra filters in the 8 filter wheel is great.

QSI all the way.

[Paul Haese]

BTW 683WSG-8 is the way to go. Cooling in winter -30C easy. Most of the time I use -25C. Summer still use -25C, just some nights are too hot for imaging anyway.

[h0ughy]

so you are using 1.25" filters or 2":question:

[allan gould]

The 683WSG8 uses 1 1/4 " filters. I use the 583wsg on both my 10" and 5" scopes. Works brilliantly with both of them with never a worry.

[peter_4059]

The 8 pos version probably wont suit the hyperstar though.

[h0ughy]

was never meant to Peter - that's a special setup just for some quick shots ;)

when I learn to become a jedi light knight I will learn the ways of the force and how to collimate the hyperstar, and the Zen for flats....:D

[h0ughy]

do you use a reducer on the 10":question:

[h0ughy]

Paul, I am very aware of that but there must be some happy medium somewhere. While the QSI looks, sounds and probably feels intoxicating to own my budget may not go that far. the other thing is getting the time to use it. I bought a qhy10 and had it for nearly 3 years - it was still new in the box when I sold it (yeah I am stupid)

now looking into it there are the Atik range of cameras as well - and I suppose there are pro's and cons for them as well. then there is FLI and Apogee....

I would really like to find something that I can directly compare the whole range I am looking at, spread sheet, and images of the same object through a variety of scopes and then have the service reliability and value for money rating. be like buying a fridge or washing machine;):lol:

[Tandum]

Sorry Dave, you'll have to do the spreadsheet.
Pick your sensor then pick the camera quality.

I dumped the 8300 sensor as I wanted well depth which the 8300 don't have. I didn't like the star colour I was getting. This 11002 has mucho well depth, great star colour but the sensor is so big, it sees all so I now need another scope with more focal length to shoot small target like M20 :)

Here's a shot from it through my tak. It see's lots of sky.

[Tandum]

If it took you 3 years not to use a one shot colour, why buy a mono with filters?

[allan gould]

Sometimes, but the field is flat either with or without f6.3 reducer. Any slight vignetting removed by flats.
Allan

[h0ughy]

yeah thats a lot of real estate?

[h0ughy]

its taken me since 2006 to step this way ;)

a mono with filters will hopefully help get shots through the light pollution here at home

[h0ughy]

Robin, which camera do you have?

[Tandum]

Atik 11002. But I'm price driven. I lined up the qhy11 with theo, same sensor, better cooling, but bought this 2nd hand for $1K less. Atik's are northern cameras, single stage cooling which means -10C in summer, -20C if your lucky in winter and lots of different temp cal files.

Get a camera with real cooling so you can do -20 whatever all year round.

I've since read that qhy11 has firmware issues in the camera. Apparently it exposes for 300 seconds but actually only opens the electronic shutter, in the sensor, for half that time. Nothing like QHY quality control :thumbsup:

[Tandum]

Narrow band from home is the way Dave. Ha and S2 when the moon is up is fine and then the O3 with no moon. Works for me. Got 3 Astrofest trophies to prove it :lol:

RGB from light polutionville is pointless. That's dark sky stuff.

[h0ughy]

point taken Robin. though every way I look at it I don't think I can squeeze my way to a 11002 with my available funds. I would love to though:sadeyes:

[whzzz28]

The Moravian 11002 is at a rather respectable price of $5799 at astroshop - with filter wheel.

My only concern with the 11002 chip is the reports of very poor HA sensitivity, and general lack of sensitivity compared to other chips on the market.

That being said - i can tell the difference, very easily, between a shot taken on an 8300 and a 11002. The 11002 chip has much better dynamic range which seems to give it more depth and looks much more pleasing (to me).

Im in the "saving" boat to replace my KAF8300 (which im not a huge fan of) and the 11002 is on my list, along with the KAI4033(?) and Sony chips.

[h0ughy]

Robin,

'i just went to the atik site and got this - they say they have a 2 stage cooler - granted not as good as the morovian or QSI?

Sensor Type: CCD - Kodak KAI 11002
Sensor size: 37.25mm x 25.70mm
Horizontal Resolution: 4008 pixels
Vertical Resolution: 2672 pixels
Pixel Size: 9 µM x 9 µM
ADC: 16 bit
Readout Noise: 13 e- RMS typical value
Dark current: 0.03 electrons per sec at -20 degrees
Well depth: 60,000 electrons
Anti blooming: >1000x
Quantum Efficiency: 50%
Linearity: R squared test equal to 1
Interface: USB 2.0 High Speed
Power: 12v DC
Maximum Exposure Length: Unlimited
Minimum Exposure Length: 1/1000 s
Guide Port: ST-4 compatible
Cooling: Two stage Peltier with ΔT=-38°C, with optional water assist Full temperature regulation.
Weight: 990g

[Tandum]

I think what they meant to say is
Cooling: Two stage, Peltier and water assist.

And I'm not plugging it into the tap :P

[h0ughy]

I wish the camera fairy could grant me a wish or two ;)

[allan gould]

David.
Think along these lines. You have bought modded DSLRS and OSC cameras but they just dont cut it for you in the long run. If you get the QSI683WSG then there will be no need for messing with the alturnatives. That camera will last and do all that you require. If you want to use it with your 11" and hyperstar then the 8 slot is not viable due to the larger footprint, but the 5 slot is.
Ive never had a problem with the camera and the SWO ASI120MM will just scew into the top of the camera and is parfocal with the main camera. It was a no brainer for me.
Allan

[PRejto]

I'm going to stop (with this post) pointing towards the G2-8300 camera, but will for the final time say that it is very good value for money. It has deep 2 stage cooling and an inbuilt wheel. I can run at -20 all year with no problem. I have not tried -25 but it might do it. Probably 1.25" filters would work fine with flats. I doubt there is much difference here between the QSI regarding filters, and probably not too much that would let a person say that a particular shot was taken with the QSI or the Moravian. A bit like wine tasting I say; the power of suggestion is always great. All of the photos I have put a link to earlier in this thread were taken in bad light pollution. Are they as good as a dark site. Of course not, but they were fun and continue to be so, if not a little frustrating. All were taken with a Hutech IDAS LP in front of Astrononmik filters. Naturally a larger pixel camera will cost more and have greater well depth.

Peter

[Paul Haese]

1.25" David.:)

[Paul Haese]

Look everything is budget driven. Sometimes it just won't stretch. My experience with the QSI and KAF8300 sensor has been great with wide field work. I am not sure how it would go with f2 but the size of the camera is probably going to mean more to you anyway. Its a tough journey to find the camera you really need.

[h0ughy]

wont be goiing to f2 with this camera - will be for the refractors and sct

[h0ughy]

so your lrgb were taken with the light polution filter in place - did you or have you used narrowband filters?

[h0ughy]

looking harder into this i see now where the QSI 686wsg is $5700 and for the same price i can get a Moravian G3-11000 with 5 pos filter wheel for under that price - thats the next chip up!!

the FLI proline is $9400.

after that i dont think my focusers could handle the weight of anything else - or my wallet. So i could go a 8300 in the QSI, or go cheaper in the moravian, or i could just go up market to larger real estate and get the 11002 chip in the moravian for the same price as the 8300 QSI? Phone a friend......50/50.......

[PRejto]

Yes, just one but I think it came out pretty nice (Astronomik Ha 12 mm filter). If I were doing this again I'd use the TEC flattener and I'd do longer subs and longer total time!:

http://www.pbase.com/prejto/horsehead_nebula

and yes, all the other photos posted at PBase are with the Hutech in front of the LRGB filters.

Peter

[naskies]

Don't forget the price of filters... For example, a 1.25" 3 nm OIII Astrodon filter is $425, but the 50 mm version that you'd need for the 11000 chip is $925. This is towards the upper end of the quality spectrum, but you get the idea - it adds up for a full LRGB + Ha SII OIII set.

Reducers/flatteners/focusers/etc that can support a 11000 chip may also be more expensive.

Also - depending upon the filter wheel, having to swap out LRGB filters out of the carousel for NB filters can be a royal pain (i.e. with the 5 pos FW).

[Bassnut]

Yes, and can your OTAs handle the image circle of an 11k chip?, it's pretty big.

[h0ughy]

the 127 has a removable 2" so that a 3" hole is available? the 14" well can make that with an eyeopener and lots of wizardry, i dunno magic happens:help:

you image with yours dont you Fred?;)

[h0ughy]

ok so is there a pecking order? i was looking as Baader

[Bassnut]

In the past I imaged with 12" Meade with a much smaller chip, I don't know how it would go with an 11k, might be worth a bit of homework 1st.

[gregbradley]

The choice is a bit easier than this really Houghy.

Not all scopes as has been pointed out can handle an 11002 chip.

Because you live in light pollution your option is narrowband. Narrowband requries strongish cooling to keep the noise down as the signal is weaker than broadband. You also ideally need to be able to do long exposures.

So there are 3 factors here:

1. What size chip can your scopes handle including weight of the final camera package? (11002 requires a largish focuser like 3 inches, 2.7 may not work as it did not with my FS152 Tak, I had to upgrade it to a 4 inch focuser and then all the accessories cost way more like reducers).

2. Narrowband filters are expensive. The 11002 will require 50.2mm round filters. These cost around $550 each or more. The QSI583 can get by with smaller filters per several recommendations. Those filters can cost half as much.

3. Guiding. Because you are going to do long exposures you need a good guiding solution. OAGs are proven to be one of the best. SBIG probably has the best range of autoguiding solutions then QSI. The latest STF8300 has a built in OAG, the later models have a guide chip in the filter wheel. The guide chip has to be in front of the filters as narrowband will block the guide stars badly with a self guiding camera and my experience was it made it impractical. So its OAG or chip in filter wheel. So that narrows it to SBIG or QSI. Both have good clean electronics and cooling. Or use a FLI or Apogee and buy an OAG and fit it in front of it (that's what I use).
FLI Microline is about $3500 I thought. A MOAG is about $900 add a few hundred for adapters and more for a filter wheel and filters. It adds up.
SBIG and QSI start looking good for the overall system.
You may already have autoguiding solutions - forget guide scopes though unless they are working really well. We are talking 20-40 minute exposures with narrowband. Not going to work well with a guide scope.

You also may get better results with 3nm Ha and O111 and save money on the smaller filters required for the QSI and get the higher rated ones.
I think QSI allows the smallest filters.

So to me 11002 would be out. QSI or SBIG would stay in. A 3rd may be the new Starlight Express 694 chip -its more sensitive than 8300 and SX also sell a filter wheel and OAG unit for it. You already have a lodestar.
The chip is a tad smaller than KAF8300 though but higher QE.

Greg.

[DavidTrap]

Lodestar on a QSIWSG (OAG cover) is magic!

DT

[Bassnut]

Yes, that seems to be the go with everything built in. They appear to get away with smaller filters on some chips because the integrated filter wheel has the filters very close to the chip.

[h0ughy]

that Starlight Express 694M looks interesting with that High QE

http://www.sxccd.com/trius-h694

[h0ughy]

you guys might be right but may look at the alternatives - this isn't an easy task:thanx:

[naskies]

In short, the narrower the bandwidth the better (assuming transmittance remains high). Narrower means higher contrast nebulosity, smaller stars, and better blocking of light pollution and moonlight.

Here are some good examples of the difference:

http://www.astrodon.com/custom/_2e2a/content/images/6v3sidebyside.jpg
http://www.astrodon.com/Orphan/astrodonfaqnarrowband/

[gregbradley]

The current IOTW and Mike Sidonios latest images are taken with the H694. The Trius is the latest hardware version of this camera and it would be preferable mainly for the argon in the ccd chamber and for the extra power ports and usb ports that make it easy to use a filter wheel, guider, AO device without a lot of extra long cables. It costs about $3500 or so. The earlier model is about US$2300 or so at Ooptcorp.com.

Greg.

[h0ughy]

well i am looking harder and comparing both rigs with the same brand of filters and same quantity - i am liking the moravian more. i have prices for two comparable setups, the moravian is cheaper, but quality wise i dont see the difference. here is a pic of the setup i would have if i chose the moravian. i also got a price for use with the 36mm filters which means i could use it to image down to f3 without vignetting

[h0ughy]

just found out the qsi wsg8 model is 1.600kg without filters, the Moravian Weight of camera head + external 10 pos filter wheel 1.7 kg so they are similar in weight

[strongmanmike]

Yeah well, I am using the SXVR-H694 with Loadstar, SX OAG and SX CFW (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/151108788/original) and I can't complain and the Trius is even betterer: :thumbsup:

Good luck with your decision Houghy :thumbsup:

Mike

[h0ughy]

thanks Mike - its not easy:shrug::question:

[h0ughy]

Well i made a decision, based on flexibility of being able to be used on any scope up to F3 i went with the moravian camera setup.

for me it was clear, the moravian had its own camera software as well as the fact it had ASCOM drivers, the QSI had a lite version of maxim, so if you wanted full functionality you needed maximdl and be $500 poorer, but it also has ASCOM drivers so I could have used other software – but I don’t have to buy software with the Moravian.

The QSI had a maximum filter of 8 1.25”, the Moravian had a 12 position filter wheel but I chose to get the 10 position and use 36mm filters – using 9 filters.

Pricewise they were both close, with the Moravian cheaper on comparative 8 filters option, but the Moravian is more modular than the QSI.

Off axis guider – both cameras had the option

Build – I know the Moravian cameras have selected sensors, not so sure about the QSI but having seen both at astorfest the Moravian does look more robust. Both can be cooled to a massive amount (we will call it -20C) which could be maintained throughout the year. The QSI is more compact.

While it probably wont be the choice made by some others I think it has been a process where you have to choose your use, scope selection and useability. I couldn’t afford the astrodons, maybe for me with my level of ability and use I also couldn’t justify the cost? If I win lotto eh;) ?

[PRejto]

David,

Good luck with your new toy. If I can assist you don't hesitate to contact me.

Peter

[h0ughy]

I am sure to have a heap of questions - thanks

[johnnyt123]

I just bought the QSI 683wsg-8 and i am very impressed with its build quality, the design and its performance.

wish i could say the same about my LRGB processing skills. Such a steep learning curve over one shot colour...

Good luck with your choice

[h0ughy]

best of luck, i wanted not to fiddle with the filters and wanted an extra one or two - that meant more than 8 and givent the scopes i own and would like to own i wanted the flexibility to use the one camera. nothing wrong with the QSI;):thumbsup:

[h0ughy]

update - I am just waiting on a 6nm HA filter for the carousel then the unit will be shipped over to Australia , there are no filters available at the minute....

[h0ughy]

Ok i have been asked as to what order to have the filters. I have on order L,R,G,B,C, Ha6, Ha12, O111, S11 . So what is the best order to have things?

[RickS]

I'd suggest putting them in the same order as your capture program expects, Dave, unless you enjoy surprises ;)

Taking tongue out of cheek... it doesn't really matter unless the wheel is very slow to move. Just put them in any order that makes sense to you.

[h0ughy]

Not being used to a capture program that doesn't use a dslr I haven't a clue so thanks for the advice

[allan gould]

I would use Lum:R:G:B:Ha:SII:OIII followed by what ever else.
Allan

[RickS]

All the programs I have used let you list the filters in any order you like.

[h0ughy]

thank you for the advice. I am so looking forward to get this camera - i want things to be right.......

[h0ughy]

with help i decided

From position 1 through to 10

1.) L
2.) R
3.) G
4.) B
5.) Clear
6.) Ha6
7.) Ha12
8.) SII
9.) OII
10) spare
:D

[RickS]

Sounds good :thumbsup:

[PRejto]

Hi David,

At first I found setting up the filter wheel a bit confusing. Not so much the order of the filters, but since every user will have different filters in different order it is necessary to create an .ini file (g2ccd2.ini) that is placed in every folder that might contain the camera driver. So, if you use the Moravian program called SIPS to image with you would place the file there.

My file (it's just a text file with .ini instead of .txt) reads as follows for my 5 filters. Just follow the same convention:

[filters]
Luminance, Black
Red, LRed
Green, LGreen
Blue, LBlue
Ha, LGray

This is discussed in the camera manual. Things may be changed as my manual/camera is more than 2 years old. I just looked at the download of the Moravian site and I see there is a "filter Setup Tool" which I've never used. Perhaps this is automated now!


http://www.gxccd.com/cat?id=150&lang=409

Peter

[h0ughy]

thanks Peter that's great advice:thumbsup:

[h0ughy]

wooo hoo its left Europe and is on its way to Australia!!!!

[h0ughy]

just found out its landed at Astroshop and will be sent to my secret mailbag today - HAPPY DAYS.

[ozstronomer]

Great news David, I'm sure you will be happy with the purchase.

I use Sequence Generator Pro for Capture with my G2-8300 and it works a treat. Filters are defined in SGP to match your filter wheel and can be changed anytime.

Setup is straight forward but PM me if you want to check on anything with the Camera/Software

Cheers Geoff

[strongmanmike]

Yeeeah baby :rockband: welcome to the....dark...:question:...complica ted and confusing side :whistle: :lol:

Great stuff Houghy :thumbsup:...even more goodies to pack into your wagon :eyepop:

Mike

[h0ughy]

thanks Geoff

[h0ughy]

in celebration i was going to image tonight with my old gear- but the bushfire smoke has come back over us:sadeyes: again

[peter_4059]

Guess that's code for Al's place?

[h0ughy]

:rofl::thumbsup:

[h0ughy]

This last bit is excruciating to wait for – the postie – in it in transit awaiting delivery…..the pain, the pain….

04/11/13 06:16
With Australia Post for delivery today
SANDGATE NSW
04/11/13 02:07
Processed through Australia Post facility
SANDGATE NSW
03/11/13 10:02
Processed through Australia Post facility
CHULLORA NSW
01/11/13 10:59
Processed through Australia Post facility
UNDERWOOD QLD
31/10/13 14:40
Received by Australia Post
HERVEY BAY QLD



And bugger me if the weather forecast is not that good to boot. typical

[h0ughy]

relief - its finally here.:):):):):D:D:help:

and it was well packed:thumbsup:;)

[h0ughy]

more - very happy

[h0ughy]

and the weather set in

also compared to an atik 16c

[Spookyer]

Mate, flash new gear, pressure is on now to perform!!!!!!!:eyepop:

[h0ughy]

:sadeyes::help: yep

[ozstronomer]

Congrats David, great news and it must be nice to finally have the camera.

I hope the weather clears soon for the trial run

Cheers Geoff

[h0ughy]

thanks Geoff

[tornado33]

Oh oh now we will get rain and flooding lol.

[h0ughy]

maybe true - looking at the forecast for the next few weeks

[Terry B]

If you can get us flooding rain then good.
We have had a total of 80mm in the last 5 months.

[h0ughy]

may have bought a drought breaker ;)

It wont stop me from fitting it to the scope and placing it with my pyxis 2"rotator and loading up the software

[alan meehan]

AHH the new toy some retraining needed on this one looks good hope everything works ok ,shame about the weather
AL

[h0ughy]

I blame you for the weather ALAN if you didn't put on a new roof over that room it would be still clear.;)
:thanx::lol:

[Lee]

Nice gear mate.... :)

[h0ughy]

thanks LEE

[axle01]

Congrats David money well spent.

Alan

[h0ughy]

unfortunately due to bunnings and a lack of time first light for this camera will be as Astrofest this year

[RickS]

You always save your new gear for Astrofest, H0ughy :lol:

[h0ughy]

i had every intention of testing it before hand, then bunnings came on line:sadeyes::question::help:

[h0ughy]

this camera is still brand new in box

[mook]

Are you saying that its up for sale?


Cheers

Mook

[h0ughy]

no just that life has passed me by while waiting to use the beastie. I almost sold it a few months back but guilt and no common sense prevailed

[mook]

Haha. Okay

Let me know if you have another episode of no guilt and common sense.:thumbsup:

Cheers

Mook